911 replies to this topic

[Kingshark]

So, Kingshark is only ******** that Alonso didn't win a title in 2007? well his love for Fernando is strong one

Not at all, in fact, I use to root against him back in 2006-2007. Though I can tell you, I am glad that Kimi won the 2007 championship to this day, as he was driving a Ferrari at the time.

In 2007, Ferrari was slightly faster, and McLaren was a bit more reliable; can we leave it at that?

[Fontainebleau]

oh come on guys, use your brain.

We didnt see a race between massa/kimi that day now, did we?
they were 1-2 after lap1, Hamilton did his best to fall back and alonso was dead slow.
not once in the race did we see their true pace.

Do you think that, for example, Ferrari never considered the possibility of a SC that would have put Hamilton straight back in contention? Do you think that Ferrari simply told their drivers to cruise in the race in which they were playing for the WDC? I very much doubt it. And no, we did not see a Massa-Raikkonen fight, but that is precisely the point we were making: Massa let Raikkonen by.

It's a matter of perspective, isnt it...
Swap the two last races with the first two of the season and people would not speak about Mclaren imploding...

You seem to think that what happened in China and Brazil was just bad luck for McLaren; it wasn't. And had it happened in the first two races, we would be saying that McLaren imploded early in the season.

Also, when you are 17 points ahead with only two races to go and twenty points to be awarded, you use a different approach that early in the season. As you said, try to look at the whole picture, and not just at the results of the races as if the circumstances were not different and races were interchangeables. Or, in other words, it did not make any sense to keep Hamilton out there in China when any result that gave him more than 3 points would have sealed the WDC; but Dennis clearly explained that "they were not racing Kimi, they were racing Fernando". There you have the team implosion: had McLaren been racing Ferrari, and not lost in the intra-team battle, Raikkonen would have never won WDC.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 19 May 2013 - 22:46.

[Shiroo]

Not at all, in fact, I use to root against him back in 2006-2007. Though I can tell you, I am glad that Kimi won the 2007 championship to this day, as he was driving a Ferrari at the time.

In 2007, Ferrari was slightly faster, and McLaren was a bit more reliable; can we leave it at that?

as long as Mattferg has your quote in his signature, no

[Skinnyguy]

Just like Alonso said that the 2012 Ferrari was on par with Force India? Do you only want to believe his words that you like?

No, I believe him when his words match what´s being seen in the racetrack.

Wrong, Ferrari was the faster car throughout the majority of the season. Don't let the final result of races such as Malaysia or Germany fool you, Ferrari should have won those easily.

I actually watched those mate. In Malaysia Alonso DID have what it took to beat the Ferraris, unlike Lewis, whose car was oversteering all over the place. In Germany, with the weather conditions the actual race happened, the McLaren was the car to have. In a dry weekend Ferrari would beat them, but guess what, it wasn´t dry.

Also, Alonso had a gearbox problem in France, and Lewis had a gearbox problem in Brazil, so McLaren's reliability wasn't perfect either, though slightly better than Ferrari's.

Any of the McLaren guys lost way less points than any of the Ferrari guys.

That was before we got to see Alonso and Massa in a similar car. If you were to make an identical topic today, the results would be very different.

Irrelevant. Unless you think Rosberg showed the World how Schumacher was wasting the potential of the late 90´s and early 2000´s Ferraris. If your better argument doesn´t even have anything to do with the season we´re dicussing, that´s a pretty good sign you should back off.

What? Schumacher dominated Massa easily in 2006.

I´ll just say, how´s that relevant to the year we are discussing? Need the Rosberg example again? Or prefer the Heidfeld-Kubica paradox? Things change in F1. Quick.

As for Massa's accident excuse, he's a had 4 years to recover and is still nowhere near Alonso.

Who even mentioned that? He just sucks now, for whatever reason. My guess is that current F1 doesn´t reward his skillset, not silly theories about brain damage.

In 2007 McLaren had the better drivers and Ferrari had the better car. Fact.

Ah, I can´t counter that argument. You got me there.

EDIT: Don´t worry son, with age even someone like you will learn to admit failure from your idols. You won´t ever see me talking **** to counter someone claiming that Räikkönen wasted the best car in 2008. Know why? Cos he did. Just like Fernando and Lewis did in 2007. Hope one day you´ll get there. In the while, don´t try too hard, makes you look a obtuse rabid driver fan. Not nice.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 May 2013 - 23:03.

[discover23]

This argument that mclaren was a better car than ferrari in 2007 simply because Alonso said so is getting old. As if he could possible tell without having driven the ferrari. The performance of the two cars where almost identical. In some races Mclaren were better and in others ferrari were untouchable. Massa and Kimi's performance compared to others years leads me to believe that the ferrari a little bit extra.

Edited by discover23, 19 May 2013 - 23:07.

[Skinnyguy]

This argument that mclaren was a better car than ferrari in 2007 simply because Alonso said so is getting old. As if he could possible tell without having driven the ferrari. The performance of the two cars where almost identical. In some races Mclaren were better and in others ferrari were untouchable. Massa and Kimi's performance compared to others years leads me to believe that the ferrari a little bit extra.

If you don´t like it, or you don´t give it credibility, you can stick to the actual season events and arrive to the same conclussion. That´s how you should do it in the first place. Quotes and crossed comparisons are just lazy exercises.

The fact I mentioned Alonso´s quote, and a poll, was just because it happened that someone was sort of telling me it was something only I thought. But the Alonso quote and the poll didn´t matter in my view of the season at all. It didn´t influence the poll either as he hadn´t even said that when it was being voted. Look at what people thought with the season as fresh as you get, the difference is quite telling.

Tells a lot that people thinking Ferrari was better thinks so because of totally unrelated events, and other season´s performances. If that´s the best you have to back it up, well, you just have to read the Rosberg example, or the Heidfeld-Kubica example to see how poor the argument is.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 May 2013 - 23:15.

[Kingshark]

No, I believe him when his words match what´s being seen in the racetrack.

Which is not the case in 2007. Hell, he didn't even drive the Ferrari that year.

I actually watched those mate. In Malaysia Alonso DID have what it took to beat the Ferraris, unlike Lewis, whose car was oversteering all over the place. In Germany, with the weather conditions the actual race happened, the McLaren was the car to have. In a dry weekend Ferrari would beat them, but guess what, it wasn´t dry.

If it wasn't for Massa's overly cautious start and amateur driving against Hamilton, he would have won that race.

As for Nurburgring, Ferrari had no problem in the first half of the race with rain tyres. Massa just couldn't get the groove in during the final laps.

Any of the McLaren guys lost way less points than any of the Ferrari guys.

Not "way" less points. What did Raikkonen lose? 6 points in Spain and 6 in Nurburgring. That's only 12 points in total, compared to 3-4 for Alonso and Hamilton. Hardly a big difference, no larger than the car performance gap.

Irrelevant. Unless you think Rosberg showed the World how Schumacher was wasting the potential of the late 90´s and early 2000´s Ferraris. If your better argument doesn´t even have anything to do with the season we´re dicussing, that´s a pretty good sign you should back off.

Massa is 31 and in the prime of his career. Schumacher was in his 40's. Useless comparison.

Who even mentioned that? He just sucks now, for whatever reason. My guess is that current F1 doesn´t reward his skillset, not silly theories about brain damage.

For what reason does Massa suck nowadays? Was he ever great? Maybe it was because the 2007-2008 Ferrari's were so good, it made him look better than he really was?

Ah, I can´t counter that argument. You got me there.

Yes!

EDIT: Don´t worry son, with age even someone like you will learn to admit failure from your idols. You won´t ever see me talking **** to counter someone claiming that Räikkönen wasted the best car in 2008. Know why? Cos he did. Just like Fernando and Lewis did in 2007. Hope one day you´ll get there. In the while, don´t try too hard, makes you look a obtuse rabid driver fan. Not nice.

Because I don't believe that McLaren were quicker than Ferrari in 2007, I am obtuse? Nope, you are shallow minded and overrate both Raikkonen and Massa as drivers.

Schumacher would have won 2007 and 2008 rather comfortably if he extended his contract with Ferrari for another two years.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 23:30.

[Kingshark]

It didn´t influence the poll either as he hadn´t even said that when it was being voted. Look at what people thought with the season as fresh as you get, the difference is quite telling.

That poll was 3 years before we saw Alonso and Massa in equal cars.

Why is that so hard to understand? Are you really this slow?

Fact of the matter is, many people on that thread actually believed that Massa and Raikkonen were better drivers than Hamilton and Alonso, which in hindsight, is laughable.

Ferrari were probably as fast or faster as McLaren in races such as USA, Hungary, and Japan. Maybe the difference was the drivers? Very well plausible.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 23:34.

[RSNS]

Alonso and next Vettel. The others seem to be far away. Hamilton, on his day, is superfast, Raikkonen is having a very good season.

Edited by RSNS, 19 May 2013 - 23:44.

[Watkins74]

Bump.

Tier 1: Alonso and Vettel are in a league of their own as the top 2 now. Consistently battling each other for the title year on year.

Tier 2: Kimi, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg. 3 drivers with a title and the best one without. I think these guys are all better than the rest, but not capable of dominating an era of F1 like the top 2.

[Skinnyguy]

That poll was 3 years before we saw Alonso and Massa in equal cars.
Why is that so hard to understand? Are you really this slow?

Don´t get personal, I know late teens are hard but let´s not make others pay.

It´s already explained up there, other year´s shape is irrelevant. Rosberg defeating Michael doesn´t say a single thing about other years from Michael career. Zero.

Fact of the matter is, many people on that thread actually believed that Massa and Raikkonen were better drivers than Hamilton and Alonso, which in hindsight, is laughable.

Oh shut up. Most people trying to drag their prejuices of the drivers into the equation are on your side. And that doesn´t work, as the examples I provided show. You are a perfect example of that:

[Ferrari were probably as fast or faster as McLaren in races such as USA, Hungary, and Japan. Maybe the difference was the drivers? Very well plausible.

Like here, see? Perfect example.

[MightyMoose]

Had your opportunity, the usual suspects ruined it with their selfish, "my opinion is all that matters" attitude and the clear disregard of a moderator request.

Hence:

CLOSED.