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Who is the best current F1 driver......


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#701 address

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:33

I think if you still underestimate Button it's you with "your head up in the clouds". If forced, I would put my money on Alonso too, but the simple truth is there's no way to tell with certainty until it happens.



Do you accept that the 2011 Ferrari was significantly worse than the Mclaren? If you do, then Its quite clear that in equal cars it would not even be a contest. Underestimating Button depends on your definition of the word. Yes he has been impressive, and is a pretty good driver, but absolutely nothing in his career suggests he is Alonso calibre, which is what he would need to be to push him in equal cars.

Lets take a look at Buttons two best years, the years which apparently prove he is top top level.

2009.

Won the title but on closer inspection, only beat Rubens , a 37 year old rubens by 18 points. Alonso level driving? Not even close.

2011.

Beat Hamilton over a season. Impressive, but at the same time struggled to beat Alonso by 13 points despite having a clearly superior car in about 15 out of 19 races.

And these were Buttons best seasons. First impressions can be very misleading. Like I said, good driver, but not in the top class.


The only underestimating going on around here is of Alonso. We are talking about a Senna/Schumacher level driver, and you are comparing him to likes of Jenson Button.

Edited by address, 11 April 2012 - 07:38.


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#702 SirRacer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:03

The only underestimating going on around here is of Alonso. We are talking about a Senna/Schumacher level driver, and you are comparing him to likes of Jenson Button.

:up:

Waiting for someone to say that Button is better than Alonso because Button beat Hamilton who beat Alonso :down:

#703 as65p

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:53

:up:

Waiting for someone to say that Button is better than Alonso because Button beat Hamilton who beat Alonso :down:


Of course that's silly, but if one manages to step back form this childish urge to shout "<-my driver> will beat everyone!" it tells us one important thing: a lot is possible, depending on a lot of circumstances, when two drivers become teammates at a certain point in time, at a certain team, with certain technical rules, certain car characteristics and (worst to predict of all) certain individual characters involved.

#704 SirRacer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:01

Of course that's silly, but if one manages to step back form this childish urge to shout "<-my driver> will beat everyone!" it tells us one important thing: a lot is possible, depending on a lot of circumstances, when two drivers become teammates at a certain point in time, at a certain team, with certain technical rules, certain car characteristics and (worst to predict of all) certain individual characters involved.

We're in a thread talking about who is the best tho.

I agree that in some certain circumstances any driver in F1 can beat another, but we're talking about who is the best overall under any circumstances, and right now, that driver is Fernando Alonso, and that's the main reason I'm his fan, I believe he is the best, and as this thread is about this, I don't see anything bad about saying it :up:

#705 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:09

:up:

Waiting for someone to say that Button is better than Alonso because Button beat Hamilton who beat Alonso :down:


Vettel beat Webber beat Rosberg beat Schumacher beat Barrichello beat Button beat Hamilton beat Alonso beat Massa beat Raikkonen :rotfl:

Of course, Vettel beat Heidfeld in their one race as teem mates :p .

Edited by Jimisgod, 11 April 2012 - 11:10.


#706 as65p

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:11

We're in a thread talking about who is the best tho.

I agree that in some certain circumstances any driver in F1 can beat another, but we're talking about who is the best overall under any circumstances, and right now, that driver is Fernando Alonso, and that's the main reason I'm his fan, I believe he is the best, and as this thread is about this, I don't see anything bad about saying it :up:


It's not that you say it, but how - as if it were an undisputable fact, which it is clearly not. It's just an opinion (which I happen to share, BTW).



#707 apoka

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:32

Putting Button in the same cluster as Alonso is seriously almost comical.

"Cluster" was meant in the sense that they raced together or had common team mates (Button/Hamilton - Alonso/Hamilton) and we may have more evidence to compare them.

Edited by apoka, 11 April 2012 - 11:34.


#708 PoleMan

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:54

Alonso has done great, but a) we only had two races so far and Vettel would be close without the NK incident and b) in the 2nd race Hamilton and Vettel could not get closer to Alonso in the race - whether that is due to Vettel and Hamilton performing badly or the Ferrari actually not being inferior in those conditions is subjective.

From my perspective, we have the Alonso/Hamilton/Button "cluster" for whom we have some reasonable evidence to compare them and on the other side Vettel (or even Rosberg/Schumacher going further down the grid) for whom it is very difficult to compare them the Alonso/Hamilton/Button group. I'd rate Vettel as best, but whatever your opinion is, it's not as crystal clear as you seem to think.

Apopka,

I agree that the differences between the drivers is probably pretty fine, but if I had to give a hierarchy for the current class, Alonso would have to be Class President. Some here just seem so determined to discount Alonso's brilliance in Malaysia (not saying that describes you in Any Way!). The rain didn't suddenly transform the F2012 into the FW-14 with full active suspension! :confused: The F2012 is still a difficult and slow car compared to the best. What the rain did allow is for the driver's brilliance and car control to shine through.

And as for the bolded, isn't it the Driver's Job to avoid avoidable collisions? Vettel didn't do that. Neither did Button. Fernando, Perez and Bruno were certainly able to show their worth in the difficult conditions in Malaysia, and deserve full credit for their pace.

#709 flyer121

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:58

Apopka,

I agree that the differences between the drivers is probably pretty fine, but if I had to give a hierarchy for the current class, Alonso would have to be Class President. Some here just seem so determined to discount Alonso's brilliance in Malaysia (not saying that describes you in Any Way!). The rain didn't suddenly transform the F2012 into the FW-14 with full active suspension! :confused: The F2012 is still a difficult and slow car compared to the best. What the rain did allow is for the driver's brilliance and car control to shine through.

And as for the bolded, isn't it the Driver's Job to avoid avoidable collisions? Vettel didn't do that. Neither did Button. Fernando, Perez and Bruno were certainly able to show their worth in the difficult conditions in Malaysia, and deserve full credit for their pace.



yeah , probably like Monza 2008...

#710 PoleMan

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:09

yeah , probably like Monza 2008...

Or Hungary 2006.

Unfortunately, drivers don't get to put their performance on a credit card. Each wet race presents new opportunities to be a hero...or something less than that.  ;)

#711 abc

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:45

2011. Alonso beat Hamilton, and only lost to Button by 13 points in a significantly inferior car, so under these circumstance its impossible to put them in the same cluster, unless of course you ignore all the facts and just keep your head up in the clouds.

How did you measure those cars and deduced which was significantly inferior?

Looks like Massa lost 0,5 sec. to Alonso in switch to Pirelli and Button gained 0,3 in quali and 0,5 in race to Hamilton. So it could be that Button is nowadays on another planet compared to Massa unlike in Bridgestone days. So what are your methods of cars evaluation?

BTW I have to acknowledge Alonso is always there or thereabouts and for this he deserves to be recognized as current best but reading into more than just one season Im sure there are many drivers on current grid who would be less than 0,5 sec or even less than 0,3 sec from him. This Massa of 2012 is piece of junk.

#712 mandaemon

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:34

Overall, taking an educated guess by the drivers' performances and progress, I would say that Alonso leads a group of four by a small margin. Of course, he is not perfect as nobody is but at the moment I simply cannot see any chunk in his armour.

Vettel should be next because he already proved that he can win the title but, crucially, to defend it successfully as well. After only 2 races this season, I have to take at least a part of his last season into account. However, he is still not proven in all circumstances and this year, with a slightly lesser car should be his opportunity for greatness.

Hamilton is very fast, yet insufficiently consistent and never made that ultimate step forward I expected after 2007.

Button will not win another world title, I suppose, but he is consistent (when within his not-too-wide operating window), quick and worthy of a place in top four.

Fifth should be Kimi Räikkönen. Very quick but obviously never having that ultimate something over the whole season or many seasons necessary to join the top group.

All of the others are either past it (like Schumacher), as yet unproven (like Perez) or simply not good enough (like Massa or Webber).



#713 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:43

Keep disrespecting Button, and you´ll get slapped by reality very soon. He´s not had such a brilliant career as others, but he´s as good as anyone else for the current F1.

#714 Smile17

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:53

Keep disrespecting Button, and you´ll get slapped by reality very soon. He´s not had such a brilliant career as others, but he´s as good as anyone else for the current F1.


I'm sure some Hamilton fans would like to think that..

#715 Callisto

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:05

Overall, taking an educated guess by the drivers' performances and progress, I would say that Alonso leads a group of four by a small margin. Of course, he is not perfect as nobody is but at the moment I simply cannot see any chunk in his armour.

Vettel should be next because he already proved that he can win the title but, crucially, to defend it successfully as well. After only 2 races this season, I have to take at least a part of his last season into account. However, he is still not proven in all circumstances and this year, with a slightly lesser car should be his opportunity for greatness.

Hamilton is very fast, yet insufficiently consistent and never made that ultimate step forward I expected after 2007.


Button will not win another world title, I suppose, but he is consistent (when within his not-too-wide operating window), quick and worthy of a place in top four.

Fifth should be Kimi Räikkönen. Very quick but obviously never having that ultimate something over the whole season or many seasons necessary to join the top group.


All of the others are either past it (like Schumacher), as yet unproven (like Perez) or simply not good enough (like Massa or Webber).

Surely winning the 2008 Wdc is the ultimate forward?



#716 mandaemon

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:23

Surely winning the 2008 Wdc is the ultimate forward?

Yes of course and, truth be told, he did not have the car to defend it in 2009.
But last year he was below par (maybe it was his off year that more-less all the drivers have) and this year he had 2 poles and yet only 2 third places. Something is missing for him to be the best out there but I think that a place in top 3 is more than honourable.

#717 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:40

I'm sure some Hamilton fans would like to think that..


I guess yes. Like some others like to think Massa is as fast as always :lol:

Trust me, they´ve learnt that lesson already, you can be sure. Fans of others will learn it sooner rather than later.

#718 Kraze

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:46

I am new to this forum and I must say I was quite amused when I saw this thread. IMHO there cant be a definitive answer to "who's the best" unless and untill we put all the drivers in the same car!


Before saying any of them as "best" lets look at how they did in 4-5 years


starting Alphabetically

Alonso- blew his chances in 2007 and 2010 championships so cannot be referred as the best

Button- Did his best to pick up the title in 2009 and after switching to Mclaren he proved people wrong by outscoring Hamilton.

Hamilton- too much error-prone to be declared as the best,

Raikkonen- Did well to win the championship with the 2nd best car during 2007 but his "motivation" was often the talking point in past years by his former employer.

Schumacher- It does not take a genius to point out that he's not the same driver he once was.

Vettel- It'll be interesting to see how the reigning world champion performs in a car which is not the best, last year he was almost flawless and the dominated almost in every races.



MY OPINION- Each and every driver in F1 are tremendously talented or else they wud not be there racing (except Pay drivers)


#719 redbarron

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:53

Reality is that most drivers have their good and bad days in the wet (although Massa seems to have more bad). Look at Button in Korea 2010 he was absolutely shocking, then in Canada 2011 he was the rainmaster and now after Malaysia 2012 he wasn't that great. If you look at most drivers you will see the same sort of thing. Alonso has had his good and bad days in the wet, its really a bit of a lottery.

Personally I think there is too much placed on how fast a driver is. Sure you can get as many poles from being fast, but the most successful are clearly those that make the most of what they have and get maximum points. Something Alonso is the best at I believe, and why I think if he can get some improvement in this years car is a good chance for the title.

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#720 redbarron

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:57

Alonso- blew his chances in 2007 and 2010 championships so cannot be referred as the best


2007 Alonso and McLaren blew it but we don't need to dig that up again. You could hardly blame Alonso for 2010. He got that car into the lead into the final race, and poor strategy ruined it for him. He drove beyond his means that year.

#721 mandaemon

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:05

2007 Alonso and McLaren blew it but we don't need to dig that up again. You could hardly blame Alonso for 2010. He got that car into the lead into the final race, and poor strategy ruined it for him. He drove beyond his means that year.

Exactly.
The fact that Alonso was in the title hunt in 2010 at all speaks (for those willing to hear) much more than the unfortunate strategic mistake in the last race.

#722 Callisto

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:12

I am new to this forum and I must say I was quite amused when I saw this thread. IMHO there cant be a definitive answer to "who's the best" unless and untill we put all the drivers in the same car!


Before saying any of them as "best" lets look at how they did in 4-5 years


starting Alphabetically

Alonso- blew his chances in 2007 and 2010 championships so cannot be referred as the best

Button- Did his best to pick up the title in 2009 and after switching to Mclaren he proved people wrong by outscoring Hamilton.

Hamilton- too much error-prone to be declared as the best,

Raikkonen- Did well to win the championship with the 2nd best car during 2007 but his "motivation" was often the talking point in past years by his former employer.

Schumacher- It does not take a genius to point out that he's not the same driver he once was.

Vettel- It'll be interesting to see how the reigning world champion performs in a car which is not the best, last year he was almost flawless and the dominated almost in every races.



MY OPINION- Each and every driver in F1 are tremendously talented or else they wud not be there racing (except Pay drivers)


There is absolutely no evidence of past employers saying that,or do you have evidence to prove it?

#723 mandaemon

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:17

There is absolutely no evidence of past employers saying that,or do you have evidence to prove it?

I remember some words on the line of "we never knew which Kimi will turn up for the race" said by someone from Ferrari, I cannot remember who.
Not necessarily true but spoken anyway.

Edited by mandaemon, 12 April 2012 - 22:31.


#724 Kraze

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:25

There is absolutely no evidence of past employers saying that,or do you have evidence to prove it?


Sorry for the misunderstanding but I didnt say employers, I said employer (referred to Ferrari). Anywayz.. I am not taking a dig at Iceman because I am also a huge fan of his racing and I think if Schumacher is the legend of F1 then he's definitely the rockstar of F1 :cool:

#725 Trust

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 13:58

Bump.

Still think it's Alonso, but Kimi surely coming to his level!



#726 Rinehart

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:21

Bump.

Tier 1: Alonso and Vettel are in a league of their own as the top 2 now. Consistently battling each other for the title year on year.

Tier 2: Kimi, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg. 3 drivers with a title and the best one without. I think these guys are all better than the rest, but not capable of dominating an era of F1 like the top 2.





#727 sopa

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:26

This bump means that we are going to have another hopeless fanboy war here. Good luck to all.:D

But just before we enter another endless war, just for the record I want to say that Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton are all very good, top drivers in current Pirelli era. Maybe if we had different tyres, we could have something different. Like with Bridgestones Raikkonen was struggling to heat up tyres. But we have what we have now.

Rosberg is good also. Button is good, but for the last year or so he has been underwhelming. Needs to up his game.

Others "remain to be seen" as the saying goes, but di Resta is certainly underrated and bashed too much going by the forum mentality.

#728 d_view7

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:34

Bump.

Tier 1: Alonso and Vettel are in a league of their own as the top 2 now. Consistently battling each other for the title year on year.

Tier 2: Kimi, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg. 3 drivers with a title and the best one without. I think these guys are all better than the rest, but not capable of dominating an era of F1 like the top 2.


I would put Kimi and Hamilton with Vettel and Alonso. Hard to tell who is the best. Hamilton and Alonso have been in the same car and it was pretty equal with them. We havent had any other of the top 4 paired. Raikkonen has showed last season and this that he also belongs in the top group of drivers. IMO Button and Rosberg are a little bit behind. They can be very fast but not consistently over the season.

#729 sopa

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:39

Just read the beginning of the thread and so many mentions of Button, who just came back from a strong 2011 and a dominating drive in Australia. Just shows, how much can change within year. So let's see, what is in 2014. Maybe we will have a new top driver or someone from current quartet fades away.:D

#730 Lights

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:51

Just read the beginning of the thread and so many mentions of Button, who just came back from a strong 2011 and a dominating drive in Australia. Just shows, how much can change within year. So let's see, what is in 2014. Maybe we will have a new top driver or someone from current quartet fades away.:D

Read the first few pages and noticed the same. Since then he hasn't been as impressive at all so I doubt he's still considered by many to be mentioned here.

#731 motorhead

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:15

2007 Alonso and McLaren blew it but we don't need to dig that up again. You could hardly blame Alonso for 2010. He got that car into the lead into the final race, and poor strategy ruined it for him. He drove beyond his means that year.


Alonso did more mistakes in 2010 than any year of his racing career (not counting 2007)

#732 Alondra

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:09

Alonso did more mistakes in 2010 than any year of his racing career (not counting 2007)


I agree. And he took the championship to the limit on his first year in Ferrari.

I still think Alonso is the most complete driver on the grid right now. Closely followed by Kimi. Kimi has been spectacular this year after his rallying hiatus from F1.


#733 Fulcrum

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:13

1st Alonso
2nd Vettel
3rd Hamilton


#734 Moore

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:18

In no particular order:

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel
Raikkonen.

Bit behind but not a lot:

Button
Rosberg

#735 George Costanza

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:40

I would say Kimi is the better driver of them in 2013 with Fernando right behind.

#736 Kingshark

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:46

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
= 2. Vettel

4. Raikkonen
5. Massa
6. Rosberg

7. Hulkenberg
8. Button
9. Webber
10. Perez

#737 2ms

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:46

Alonso, like Hamilton, can be very fast and has good racecraft. But he doesn't have the same consistency and car control as Raikkonen and Vettel do.

It's hard to say who is better between Vettel and Raikkonen. My hunch is that possibly Raikkonen right now. But Vettel is just starting out and will have easily the most remarkable career of any current F1 driver.

#738 Kingshark

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:50

Hamilton lacks car control? Are you serious?

#739 muelte

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:56

And Alonso lacks consistency? I know opinions are all personal but some can't be taken very seriously...

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#740 discover23

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:58

I think he was refering to Alonso lacking the same car control as Kimi and Vettel . He must have fell asleep last sunday when Alonso was overtaking Lewis around the outside on lap 1..
If you want the definition of car control on the limit in formula 1 that onboard shot from Alonso will tell you what that is. It doesn't get any better than that.



Edited by discover23, 18 May 2013 - 16:03.


#741 2ms

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 15:59

He has terrific car control. One of the top 4 in F1, I'd say. But Raikkonen is a bit of a car control alien. The most salient difference between Hamilton/Alonso and the other two is that they make more championship-costing errors.

#742 V3TT3L

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:07

Alonso is a bad qualifier.

#743 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:08

Hamilton lacks car control? Are you serious?

You just rated Massa as better than Button, 3 places ahead. You shouldn't be the one questioning others! :cat:

#744 PARAZAR

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:13

Alonso.

#745 MikeV1987

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:37

Toss up between Raikkonen and Vettel for me.

#746 SpartanChas

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:43

I've thought Alonso for a long time now and I don't see myself changing my mind anytime soon.

#747 Lights

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:50

It would help if particular drivers would change teams, to get some more perspective on this. For instance, how good Vettel is depends a lot on how good Webber is.

#748 Jamelon

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 16:53

Alonso, he's fast, determined, has great racecraft, a ruthless work ethic and is mentally very strong, which translates in great risk management skills, unlike say Hamilton.

He's been the best for a long time now and by some margin, he deserves 2 or 3 more championships on his CV.

#749 Atreiu

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 17:00

If I were a teamboss, I'd go for for Kimi-Hamilton lineup. I consider them the strongest and have complimentary skills.

But there is very little to chose between the top 4 nowadays and say XXX is the best.

#750 ebc

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 17:04

Very close between Vettel and Alonso, Vettel's ability to pull something out the hat when he needs it most gives him the edge, just.

Kimi and Lewis next up, but under the right conditions just as good as top two. I think we will find out a lot about Hamilton this year as i think he needs to give Rosberg a good beating, Rosberg is fast but not top class.

Button and Webber next up and a bunch of drivers who could be brilliant but have to prove it such as Hulkenberg