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#1 Skinnyguy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:26

There´s no place to discuss about the DRS zones selection for every circuit, so I open this.

What do you think about Australia new zones, do you want the zones to stay like that in the future? I do. I though it´d be too much, but it was well balanced: you could pass, but not drive-by without a fight in the braking zones.

Also, where would you put it in Malaysia? My choice would be the straight before the last hairpin. When there´s a series of straights separated by slow corners, the DRS must be on the first one. That way no driver would be waiting for the DRS zone if they got a run on the previous straight, and no driver would be comming back using DRS on another that has just passed him.

Your thoughts.

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#2 Dunder

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:27

There´s no place to discuss about the DRS zones selection for every circuit, so I open this.

What do you think about Australia new zones, do you want the zones to stay like that in the future? I do. I though it´d be too much, but it was well balanced: you could pass, but not drive-by without a fight in the braking zones.

Also, where would you put it in Malaysia? My choice would be the straight before the last hairpin. When there´s a series of straights separated by slow corners, the DRS must be on the first one. That way no driver would be waiting for the DRS zone if they got a run on the previous straight, and no driver would be comming back using DRS on another that has just passed him.

Your thoughts.


Australia was fine.

Malaysia will be 1 zone on the s/f straight, same as last year.


#3 Skinnyguy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:29

Malaysia will be 1 zone on the s/f straight, same as last year.


Bad choice. Drivers will not pass in the final hairpin if they get a run, they´ll wait. Also slower drivers being passed on the previous straight will be comming back.

#4 Dunder

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:33

Bad choice. Drivers will not pass in the final hairpin if they get a run, they´ll wait. Also slower drivers being passed on the previous straight will be comming back.


We did see some 'strategic' use of the detection zone last year but when all is said and done, I thought it was OK.



#5 Snic

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:02

Has the DRS zone been reduced in length this year, and by how much? Was way too long in 2011

Edited by Snic, 14 April 2012 - 08:05.


#6 Dunder

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:05

Has the DRS zone been reduced in length this year? Was way too long in 2011


Same place. 752m from T14.


#7 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 20:57

What´s your thoughts about this one? I think it was good, I like this ones where you still have to do some work to pass :up: .

Still didn´t like how much DRS helps the pace of the attacker. It should come only into play when there´s going to be RACING, no to boost the pace. They should reduce the range down to 0.5. Right now people´s using it to keep up with others.

#8 ivey

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 21:08

Same place. 752m from T14.

I think there were minimal or no occasions where DRS did the trick on its own. Most of the overtaking was made in other parts of the circuit and DRS zone was too short just to do it itself. It was a pretty good option I think. It's the second year with DRS so they are going to be smarter about the zones, now they know that it shouldn't be that long in Turkey or Canada

#9 Snic

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 21:42

DRS was absolutely fine in length. Glad that the FIA is being sensible and shortening DRS zones when necessary :up: . I think Button mentioned in an interview that DRS might actually have reduced overtaking!! If you were 3rd in a DRS train, no matter what kind of exit the car in front of you got it would still get a 'get out of jail' 10mph bonus. Also by Turkey I assume you meant Spa ;)

Edited by Snic, 15 April 2012 - 21:43.


#10 LoudHoward

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 23:39

I thought it was good, gave a bit of a boost but nothing too spectacular. I much prefer these, Webber and Hamilton came back through the giant train fine there at the end so no biggie. It shouldn't be an auto pass just because you're within 1 second.

#11 pingu666

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:08

yeah the bbc commentators didnt seem to grasp that with the groups of cars...


#12 Meanbeakin

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:17

yeah the bbc commentators didnt seem to grasp that with the groups of cars...


Yep, with the train of cars it meant everyone had DRS on the straight except the front car of Raikkonen who was using KERS. The overtaking only really started happening when the 2 stop guys tyres started going off.

#13 lbennie

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:26

yeh, brundle kept banging out about the DRS being a big fail at this one, but i saw heaps of passing on the back straight??


#14 pingu666

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:41

with 2 cars in clean air it was, but a train of cars it seemed very? ineffective

it might be worse in the pack (than no drs) as the cars arent making such a big hole in the air with drs open



#15 lbennie

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:01

don't see how that is any different to how it was pre-DRS though.

it's always been hard to slipstream at the back of a train, due to the cars in front having the same advantage. DRS was never meant to counter this phenomenon.



#16 pingu666

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:14

the cars do hit there vmax sooner so the guys behind probably lose closing rate and just stall out. but it might be different but pretty much the same result most of the time.

some cars really dont "suck up" like they used to. lmp2 cars didnt at paul recard. massive straight, onboard camera, car dont close at all at one in front, so yeah :/


#17 karlzy1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:47

put simply, the DRS zone was too short in China. If you are putting this zone so that overtaking is possible ( that the goal of the thing, for those of you that forgot), you might as well do it right.


#18 lbennie

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:44

put simply, the DRS zone was too short in China. If you are putting this zone so that overtaking is possible ( that the goal of the thing, for those of you that forgot), you might as well do it right.


I saw plenty of overtaking. certainly more than I would have seen 2 years ago.
working as intended imo.



#19 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:57

It was fine in China IMO.

I hope Bahrain´s one is on the straight before the last corner, or it could get tactical use for comming back after getting passed. Plus the start straight is a good enough chance without DRS.

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#20 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:18

If the DRS zone starts when the cars are already in 7th gear then it's gonna be ineffective. Turkey is the exception that proves the rule.

#21 Cavani

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:28

if u dont see a lot overtaking u say the zone short , if u see a lot of vertaking u say the zone is way too long

#22 Lights

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:30

The 'problem' in China, if there was one, was mainly that there was a relatively small topspeed difference between DRS and none DRS. I think most cars were already close to hitting the limiter without DRS. Teams choose this themselves as a higher 7th gear isn't worth it for the non DRS laps. It still worked well here though and it's probably better for the viewers this way, compared to Turkey 2011 where they just fly by with a 20km/h advantage.

#23 rodlamas

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 21:23

If the DRS zone starts when the cars are already in 7th gear then it's gonna be ineffective. Turkey is the exception that proves the rule.


DRS must start once you can hit the throttle. Other than that it will prove ineffective just like China and Barcelona 2011. Turkey is the exception just because once DRS zone started there is a severe uphill which counters for the lateness of the DRS opening.

#24 OO7

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:54

For Bahrain, do you think it might be better to have DRS on the straight before the S/F straight? Establishing the system in this way will allow the car behind to get close to (and possibly) pass the car ahead, but more importantly, may allow it to be close enough to get a normal slipstream and attack down the home straight or allow the car that was just passed on the previous straight to re-attack.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 18 April 2012 - 21:55.


#25 Dunder

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:57

For Bahrain, do you think it might be better to have DRS on the straight before the S/F straight? Establishing the system in this way will allow the car behind to get close to (and possibly) pass the car ahead, but more importantly, may allow it to be close enough to get a normal slipstream and attack down the home straight or allow the car that was just passed on the previous straight to re-attack.


I think that would be better but it has already been decided that DRS activation will be on the s/f straight, 280m after T15.


#26 OO7

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:57

I think that would be better but it has already been decided that DRS activation will be on the s/f straight, 280m after T15.

Thanks for the info Dunder :up:

#27 Otaku

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:11

The best DRS zone is the one that doesn't exist :D

#28 DrF

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:45

If DRS is intended to stop faster cars becoming stuck behind slightly slower cars (eg Raikonnen behind Massa) and having their race ruined, then why make the DRS zone so short that it can't be used? Either they should have DRS or they should not. This in between thing is stupid.

#29 Lights

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:19

If DRS is intended to stop faster cars becoming stuck behind slightly slower cars (eg Raikonnen behind Massa) and having their race ruined, then why make the DRS zone so short that it can't be used? Either they should have DRS or they should not. This in between thing is stupid.

Because of races like Istanbul'11, they believe too long DRS zones are bad for racing. Which makes sense. It's just something you can't predict.

Don't see exactly what you mean though, the zones were definitely used, they had DRS, what in between thing are you pointing at?

Like explained earlier in this thread, it didn't have a lot of effect in China because most cars had max topspeed of 315km/h and without DRS they already got to 312km/h.

#30 Sevach

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:13

I saw plenty of overtaking. certainly more than I would have seen 2 years ago.
working as intended imo.


It was perfect (or close to it), it gave following cars a boost and yet overtaking was still overtaking, in the braking zone like it should be, not in the middle of the straight.
You actually had to be close out of the last corner for it to work, not five car lengths behind and still managed to catch and pass before the braking zone like we've seen at times last year.

#31 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 14:57

I don´t like predictions, but I think it´s going to be too easy to pass. The mid 2000´s cars were passing in that straight already so... :|

#32 Snic

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 15:01

Because of races like Istanbul'11, they believe too long DRS zones are bad for racing. Which makes sense. It's just something you can't predict.

Don't see exactly what you mean though, the zones were definitely used, they had DRS, what in between thing are you pointing at?

Like explained earlier in this thread, it didn't have a lot of effect in China because most cars had max topspeed of 315km/h and without DRS they already got to 312km/h.


So DRS was negligible, and we probably had the best close racing in F1. Hmmm,,,

#33 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 15:12

Like explained earlier in this thread, it didn't have a lot of effect in China because most cars had max topspeed of 315km/h and without DRS they already got to 312km/h.


I don´t think it was that. Schumacher was the only top runner not using it and he did 304 I think.

I think it was that between the activation point being too late on the straight, it only gave speed adavantage from the moment you engaged seventh to the end of the straight, too little time.

Anyway I´m happy with that kind of DRS zones. :up:

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 April 2012 - 15:15.


#34 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:31

I think they found the sweetspot for future Canada races. Passing was possible, but not guaranteed. You still needed decent pace advantage and better traction to pass.

Your thoughts.

#35 xAtarigeekx

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:42

I think they found the sweetspot for future Canada races. Passing was possible, but not guaranteed. You still needed decent pace advantage and better traction to pass.

Your thoughts.


No way, it was way too easy. You don't need DRS at the end of that straight in Canada, they would be able to overtake there anyway from slip streaming and straight line speed differences. If they really want it in Canada then put it on the part before the hairpin or down into turn 1, then it would provide more opportunities and not be so easy.

#36 fisssssi

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:48

I thought it was a joke in Canada. Schumacher made a really sweet, late-breaking, old school pass at the hairpin on Perez (?) and then was re-passed with disturbing ease at next straight.

We saw people being passed and then immediately pulling back in behind the passing car with a few hundred metres to go. Sorry, that's a fail. The DRS should enable cars to draw alongside yet still force them to outbreak the car infront into the next corner.

#37 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:57

I'd like to see DRS on smaller straights, or better yet, for it to be gone.

#38 Atreiu

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:58

Just let all of them use it freely the entire time from pracitce to the races.

#39 Nigol

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:09

I thought it was a joke in Canada. Schumacher made a really sweet, late-breaking, old school pass at the hairpin on Perez (?) and then was re-passed with disturbing ease at next straight.

We saw people being passed and then immediately pulling back in behind the passing car with a few hundred metres to go. Sorry, that's a fail. The DRS should enable cars to draw alongside yet still force them to outbreak the car infront into the next corner.


Michael was so late on the brakes he missed the apex completely, allowing Perez to overtake him probably even without DRS.

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#40 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:10

I don´t think it was that easy. There was a train with Di Resta in front going quite slow and no one cleared him. You needed serious speed advantage to pass.

Sure there was some easy drive-by stuff, but it was between cars in totally different pace range. That´s probably a drive-by without DRS too.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 11 June 2012 - 20:13.


#41 pingu666

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:30

need to try smaller slot gap imo, be less speed difference, would look less fake


#42 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:34

need to try smaller slot gap imo, be less speed difference, would look less fake


True. When the activation zone arrives you can see the extra boost. It feels dumb.

I´d go for activation zones starting earlier (just after traction, as soon as driver can) and ending earlier (about when driver engages 7th). DRS puts people in a close slipstream, then they have to end the job.

#43 Rick911

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:10

The best DRS zone is the one that doesn't exist :D


Agree. DRS was implemented to facilitate passing, to spice up the show, to broaden the appeal beyond core fans. If that keeps F1 viable and on my TV, I can accept that. Since the rules about DRS apply equally to all teams, I guess it is fair to the teams. I'm concerned, however, that DRS may create an outcome that wouldn't have happened without it. Would LH have been able to storm through the field late to capture the top step in Canada, or would SebVet have been able to claw back to fourth?

I know that the ruling body invested a considerable amount of time, money, and thought to investigate the non passing issue and the DRS solution. I have to wonder, though, if the sophisticated aerodynamics of the front and rear wings is the cause of the "problem" and therein lies the true solution. For example, has thought been given to simplifying the aero to a two-surface configuration (front and rear wing only, no vanes, planes, odd-ball mirror mounts etc.)? Go one or two steps further and limit each wing to no more than two elements and a maximum area limit.

Seems like the money now spent on implementing and refining DRS (and the aero effect of adding a surface that is about the size of a gnat's wing) could then be put into other F1 initiatives like alternative/green energy.

#44 OO7

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:26

I think it is far more complicated than is being made out. What makes the passes look easy, is the fact that the leading car is often suffering from traction issues, usually down to tyre wear or tyre degradation, but may also be poor set-up. Prior to tyre wear coming into play, DRS doesn't provide that much help. Last year in Valencia which featured a double DRS zone, we saw very little passing.

#45 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:32

I think it is far more complicated than is being made out. What makes the passes look easy, is the fact that the leading car is often suffering from traction issues, usually down to tyre wear or tyre degradation, but may also be poor set-up. Prior to tyre wear coming into play, DRS doesn't provide that much help. Last year in Valencia which featured a double DRS zone, we saw very little passing.


This is true. With a couple exceptions (such as Turkey last year), DRS doesn't have much of an impact in the first stage of the race when everyone has the same amount of laps on their tyres. Then in the later stages of the race, when some drivers have significantly fresher tyres than those ahead, the combination of better traction + the DRS speed boost allows them to breeze past without much trouble.

#46 makroncommander

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:47

Overtaking vs DRSing

DRS ruined the race for me in Canada. None of the passes looked like overtakes, they looked more of lapping back-markers. Vettel and Alonso didnt stand a chance against Lewis on fresh tyres, and the passing didnt look like a pass. Though I supported Lewis for the win,still it doesnt feel right.

I think DRS should be disabled for races like Montreal and Spa where overtaking can be enjoyed instead of DRSing.



#47 Ali_G

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 07:50

I think they found the sweetspot for future Canada races. Passing was possible, but not guaranteed. You still needed decent pace advantage and better traction to pass.

Your thoughts.


The sweetspot is being able to drive clean around the car in front without even reaching the braking zone :confused:

What I saw on Sunday was embarrassing for F1. It was utterly repugnant to my eyes.

#48 sofarapartguy

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 08:04

I think it is far more complicated than is being made out. What makes the passes look easy, is the fact that the leading car is often suffering from traction issues, usually down to tyre wear or tyre degradation, but may also be poor set-up. Prior to tyre wear coming into play, DRS doesn't provide that much help. Last year in Valencia which featured a double DRS zone, we saw very little passing.


Tyres have done all the job already. I think DRS is pretty pointless by now.

#49 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 08:11

Overtaking vs DRSing

DRS ruined the race for me in Canada. None of the passes looked like overtakes, they looked more of lapping back-markers. Vettel and Alonso didnt stand a chance against Lewis on fresh tyres, and the passing didnt look like a pass. Though I supported Lewis for the win,still it doesnt feel right.

I think DRS should be disabled for races like Montreal and Spa where overtaking can be enjoyed instead of DRSing.


:up:

As a Lewis fan you would remember Canada 2012 as an epic win overtaking Vettel and Alonso in the final stages of the race. It would have been similar to Hockenheim 2008. Instead, DRS left us with nothing.



#50 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 21:34

The sweetspot is being able to drive clean around the car in front without even reaching the braking zone :confused:

What I saw on Sunday was embarrassing for F1. It was utterly repugnant to my eyes.


These passes were going to be drive by with or without DRS. The difference in traction caused them. The result would have been exactly the same without it.

The sweetspot is cars on similar pace were possible but hard to pass (Di Resta was hard to pass, Rosberg on Kimi pass was beatiful), cars on very different pace were no race destroying obstacles.