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Torque...it's Power


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#301 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:20

There is another last refuge for scoundrels...the Law.Jimbo Jones comment to Homer Simpson after his vigilante group failed
"You let me down,man.I don't believe in nothing no more.I'm going to Law School !"

Ha ha! Yes, I remember that line - brilliant!

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#302 Grumbles

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:46

Reminds me of an old favourite:
The Saints - Know Your Product

#303 Magoo

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 13:01

Don't get me wrong -- where I come from, used car salesman is an honorable trade, more or less. I can listen to a skillful and entertaining liar all day. It's good for the mental agility.

Modern advertising is another thing altogether. They seek to reduce the entire culture down to the level of the garbage they are peddling. If they want to put Michaelangelo's David on the WC to sell bathroom fixtures, they'll do it. And it's not tongue-in-cheek, either; to them it's all the same thing. Lowest common denominator. The sole purpose of thousands of years of culture is to sell stuff.


#304 hogits2

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 13:23

The sole purpose of thousands of years of culture is to sell stuff.


I love the way a lot of these threads simplify and illuminate. Wonderful.

I am just posting this via a new monitor which the young salesman assured me was a perfect replacement for the old one but everything now is extremely wide and low so a Honda CRV looks like a fairly blurred Bonneville streamliner. I'm sure that fairly soon a teenager will wander past and make the world appear normal again.



#305 Kelpiecross

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 12:09

One of the current Dodge commercials running on the radio locally.

<Sam Elliot voiceover>
Torque....
Torque...Isn't complicated...
Torque is Power...
The new Dodge Ram <blah blah blah>

No wonder the general population is confused.


All of the recents posts on this subject seem to be very tough on advertising people. I have never worked in the ad business but I suspect that they are generally not as evil as people seem to be making them appear.

As for the original ad that Canuck posted - I thought it was well-worded and accurate. Not "accurate" in the distinction between torque and horsepower - but "accurate" in the way 95% of the population sees "power". "Power" to the unwashed masses is when your put your foot down at low speed and the vehicle accelerates away strongly - typically given by a big capacity engine that has plenty of low RPM torque. So to the "great unwashed" - "torque" is "power".

#306 Magoo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 14:50

As for the original ad that Canuck posted - I thought it was well-worded and accurate. Not "accurate" in the distinction between torque and horsepower - but "accurate" in the way 95% of the population sees "power". "Power" to the unwashed masses is when your put your foot down at low speed and the vehicle accelerates away strongly - typically given by a big capacity engine that has plenty of low RPM torque. So to the "great unwashed" - "torque" is "power".


The people of the village believe that if a pregnant woman is frightened by a horse, she will give birth to a horse-faced baby. This being a prevailing view in the village, it is therefore "accurate."

Is that what you mean to say?

#307 munks

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 15:17

The people of the village believe that if a pregnant woman is frightened by a horse, she will give birth to a horse-faced baby. This being a prevailing view in the village, it is therefore "accurate."

Is that what you mean to say?


Christ, Magoo, where do you get these awesome analogies?

#308 Slumberer

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 15:38

The people of the village believe that if a pregnant woman is frightened by a horse, she will give birth to a horse-faced baby. This being a prevailing view in the village, it is therefore "accurate."

Is that what you mean to say?

So to bring this full circle: are you saying that that's horse-power, or is it just talk?

#309 Magoo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 17:00

Christ, Magoo, where do you get these awesome analogies?


From the village where we live, of course.

How about this: In the village, a prevailing belief arises that one can contract HIV/AIDS from a toilet seat or salad bar. Since this view has become commonplace, naturally it must be "accurate." After all, who are we to argue with the popular consensus.

Since many of the "great unwashed" often can't tell the difference between a butterfly and a moth, this indicates there isn't any real difference. They are in fact the same insect. The so-called differences are only a callous fraud perpetrated on the common man by the eggheads in their ivory towers.

You can see the obvious efficiencies in crowdsourcing our technical expertise in this manner. Who needs all that tiresome observation and scientific method when it's so much quicker and cheaper to take a vote and record the result. There, the people have spoken.

Intuition is underrated.

#310 Magoo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 19:01

I totally understand how an engine with a good torque curve gives a driver the "power" (as in the "ability" or "capacity," that is) to drive his pickup over to Starbuck's for a hazelnut latte. I get that, I do.

I also understand how discussing general engine characteristics at several layers of abstraction in this manner allows the advertiser to avoid mentioning any meaningful specifics, for example how the output numbers for this truck's available V6 might be weak tea in comparison to other pickups in its class. Never mind all that. Torque... isn't complicated... torque... it's power.

#311 Kelpiecross

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 03:34

From the village where we live, of course.

How about this: In the village, a prevailing belief arises that one can contract HIV/AIDS from a toilet seat or salad bar. Since this view has become commonplace, naturally it must be "accurate." After all, who are we to argue with the popular consensus.

Since many of the "great unwashed" often can't tell the difference between a butterfly and a moth, this indicates there isn't any real difference. They are in fact the same insect. The so-called differences are only a callous fraud perpetrated on the common man by the eggheads in their ivory towers.

You can see the obvious efficiencies in crowdsourcing our technical expertise in this manner. Who needs all that tiresome observation and scientific method when it's so much quicker and cheaper to take a vote and record the result. There, the people have spoken.

Intuition is underrated.


I didn't know that was where "horse-faced" people came from - in fact I am not too sure where babies come from.

I don't think there is any real difference between moths and butterflies - the same as there is no real difference between frogs and toads.

#312 johnny yuma

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:41

If I were an average American pickup truck buyer (and thank the Lord i'm not sir) and was considering
the purchase of a Dodge Ram,and Sam Somebody said it had torque..AND power ..goddam it Jethro I'd
go right out and git me one.
If I decided to read up in the Technical Forum on that fancy AtlasF1 to done educate myseff about Torque,
and Power,and gear ratios and such like,and spent a month doin it well I'd probly set down in a dark room
then with some Corn Likker and ponder my inadequecies.

#313 Magoo

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:57

Pickup truck commercials here in the US of A have descended into self-parody, past machismo into homoeroticism. With all the male models prancing around in hard hats, they should replace the gravel-voiced narrators with the Village People. YMCA!

#314 saudoso

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:09

So you are implying that the truck selling business is now home for the advertiing people that lost their jobs with Philip Morris?

#315 h4887

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:14

I didn't know that was where "horse-faced" people came from - in fact I am not too sure where babies come from.

I don't think there is any real difference between moths and butterflies - the same as there is no real difference between frogs and toads.


Or between ducks and geese...

#316 desmo

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 13:40

Pickup truck commercials here in the US of A have descended into self-parody, past machismo into homoeroticism. With all the male models prancing around in hard hats, they should replace the gravel-voiced narrators with the Village People. YMCA!


Indeed. The masculinity in pickup ads have closed the circle looping back from ordinary real masculinity to the self consciously cartoonish homoeroticism of bulging greased muscles, uniforms, leather and such. One has to wonder if the demographic they pitch to might secretly be repressed catchers. I liken it to the evolution of the biker/H-D cult- once dirty, ratty and authentic, now every hair is in place and neither the bike nor the biker any longer have sweat or grease stains. Just like the pickup trucks you see that are never dirty except perhaps a little mud obviously applied by a set artists jussst sooo, and have no scratches in their paint in the ads. Just like the perfect trucks you see on the road, useless for their putative purpose without risking a paint scratch, they are not actual hauling tools but pretty lifestyle accessories like a giant designer purse. It comes across as insecure, inauthentic and prettified and, yes, girly- a parody of authentic masculinity.

#317 Tony Matthews

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 16:01

... I am not too sure where babies come from.

Depending on which village you live in, babies are either delivered by storks, or found under gooseberry bushes. Fact.

#318 E.B.

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 19:19

a prevailing belief arises that one can contract HIV/AIDS from a toilet seat


You can if you sit down before the previous man gets up.


#319 carlt

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 21:03

Indeed. The masculinity in pickup ads have closed the circle looping back from ordinary real masculinity to the self consciously cartoonish homoeroticism of bulging greased muscles, uniforms, leather and such. One has to wonder if the demographic they pitch to might secretly be repressed catchers. I liken it to the evolution of the biker/H-D cult- once dirty, ratty and authentic, now every hair is in place and neither the bike nor the biker any longer have sweat or grease stains. Just like the pickup trucks you see that are never dirty except perhaps a little mud obviously applied by a set artists jussst sooo, and have no scratches in their paint in the ads. Just like the perfect trucks you see on the road, useless for their putative purpose without risking a paint scratch, they are not actual hauling tools but pretty lifestyle accessories like a giant designer purse. It comes across as insecure, inauthentic and prettified and, yes, girly- a parody of authentic masculinity.


You'll have a lynch mob after you - suggesting that such an American icon is perhaps a bit Gay

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#320 Magoo

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 21:53

You'll have a lynch mob after you - suggesting that such an American icon is perhaps a bit Gay


We have drones now. Just saying.


#321 johnny yuma

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 23:54

Frightening.Americans analysing themselves.Must be a delayed reaction to all those bailouts !

Thought Bubble:Someone's gonna pay....hmmm.. there's another little naughty country playing up... but it's a bit close to a big naughty country......dammit.

Edited by johnny yuma, 31 May 2012 - 23:58.


#322 munks

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:33

You can if you sit down before the previous man gets up.


:lol: :cry:

#323 Kelpiecross

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:42

Depending on which village you live in, babies are either delivered by storks, or found under gooseberry bushes. Fact.


Well, that is the obvious explanation. My wife has been telling me for 36 years now where our kids came from - I find her story very hard to believe and not a little disgusting.

#324 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:51

I find her story very hard to believe and not a little disgusting.

That's women for you...

#325 hogits2

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 20:58

From the village where we live, of course.

How about this: In the village, a prevailing belief arises that one can contract HIV/AIDS from a toilet seat or salad bar. Since this view has become commonplace, naturally it must be "accurate." After all, who are we to argue with the popular consensus.

Since many of the "great unwashed" often can't tell the difference between a butterfly and a moth, this indicates there isn't any real difference. They are in fact the same insect. The so-called differences are only a callous fraud perpetrated on the common man by the eggheads in their ivory towers.

You can see the obvious efficiencies in crowdsourcing our technical expertise in this manner. Who needs all that tiresome observation and scientific method when it's so much quicker and cheaper to take a vote and record the result. There, the people have spoken.


...and the next day the village had a church.





I'll get my cassock.

Edited by hogits2, 01 June 2012 - 21:02.


#326 WhiteBlue

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 23:32

Since I have owned my first turbodiesel I'm hooked on torquy engines. It is nice to have a lot of grunt under 2,000 and to over 7,000 rpm. I get easily frustrated by an engine that needs 7,000 rpm to function and redlines at 9,000. It's not sexy at all to me.

#327 saudoso

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:37

Posted Image

#328 WhiteBlue

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:48

LOL, what power of argument.

#329 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:33

I don't get why that warranted even a single facepalm, let alone a double.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 04 June 2012 - 03:34.


#330 Canuck

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:50

Because the bulk of the dee-zuhlzs we see over here are in trucks, I'm not familiar with a turbodiesel that revs over 7000rpm. Or, have I misread your post?

Edited by Canuck, 04 June 2012 - 04:50.


#331 hogits2

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 07:08

Since I have owned my first turbodiesel I'm hooked on engines with a lot of power under 2,000 and to over 7,000 rpm. I get easily frustrated by an engine that needs 7,000 rpm to function and redlines at 9,000. It's not sexy at all to me.


fixed

#332 Magoo

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:50

fixed


You didn't fix anything. The man's comment about torquey engines was not incorrect. When you're talking about an engine's driveability and general output characteristics as sensed by the vehicle's occupants, you are talking about torque. Not power.

In your entire life, you have never experienced an engine's power in a direct, physical sense. Power is simply the product of an engine's torque and the angular velocity of its output shaft. When you press on the throttle pedal, what you feel accelerating your body and pushing you back in the seat is resultant to the engine's torque, not its power.

You can verify this yourself with your own car, an accelerometer, and a tach. As you accelerate through the gears, the magnitude of the force tracks the engine's torque curve, not its power curve. Where you feel maximum force pushing you back in the seat in each gear, and where the accelerometer records its greatest value, you will find the engine closest to max torque rpm. At peak power rpm, you won't feel anything. If you chart acceleration vs. rpm and drive away in a 3rd or 4th gear roll from idle to redline rpm, you will draw a plot that follows the engine's torque curve perfectly.



#333 saudoso

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:52

I don't get why that warranted even a single facepalm, let alone a double.

Just sit tight and wait. You will get it.

#334 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 13:13

Just sit tight and wait. You will get it.

Already did, I'm up to speed now.

#335 Kelpiecross

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 14:10

Posted Image


Question for Star Trek nerds - what episode is picture from?

#336 Tony Matthews

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 15:08

Episode 97 - 'Phasers Set to Facepalm.'

#337 MatsNorway

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 15:52

Diesel Powa!



#338 johnny yuma

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 02:29

Because the bulk of the dee-zuhlzs we see over here are in trucks, I'm not familiar with a turbodiesel that revs over 7000rpm. Or, have I misread your post?

We have passed into another galaxy where diesels rev like petrol engines and pull like V8s
thats all I can make of the trekkie facepalms.Only Magoo makes sense as we approach warp speed.

#339 bigleagueslider

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 02:32

Just read through some of the posts from the past week. Frankly, many of them were just flat-out pathetic. Ideally, posts would be topical and contribute to the subject of conversation. And there's nothing wrong with the occasional humorous post as long as it shows some creativity and originality. But it's frustrating when I have to wade through posts like those making an intellectually feeble connection between pick-up truck advertisements in the US market and latent homosexuality of truck buyers. This nonsense fails to grasp the fact that the large majority of pick-up trucks purchased in the US are bought by small business owners, tradesmen, construction workers, farmers, etc.

Personally, I also have no problem with advertising by automakers. If they wish to spend large amount of their shareholder's money producing silly ads, that causes me no harm, so why should I care?

Finally, before you all get too harsh in your condemnation of advertising, you would do well to remember that all of the money for professional auto racing comes from advertising budgets.

Regards,
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#340 WhiteBlue

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 02:46

Because the bulk of the dee-zuhlzs we see over here are in trucks, I'm not familiar with a turbodiesel that revs over 7000rpm. Or, have I misread your post?


That is the likely reason. My current car is a BMW 120 turbodiesel. It redlines close to 6,000 rpm but I have no reason to take it there. It has so much power in low revs that I never exceed 1,700 rpm in the city and 4,500 on the motorway. If you translate this to a racing diesel you will see slightly higher rpm but the power still comes much more from the torque than in a racing petrol engine. For me it is simply much more fun to drive the torquy engine and feel the grunt all the time than ride the sceamers that are always on an impossible small edge of a working rev band. Current F1 engines have incredible small rev bands and can't even make a start below 14,000 rpm for lack of torque. The petrol engine uses 22% of the rev band where the diesel utilizes 70%. For the racing driver it is driveability for the road car driver it is the experience of power even at low speeds that makes the appeal of the turbocharged engine.


#341 Kelpiecross

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 03:54

Already did, I'm up to speed now.


I still have no idea.

#342 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:41

I still have no idea.

It's not so much the comment, but rather the foreboding of the yet another retread of the same discussion with the exactly the same points being made again. At this point we don't need to type out the arguments, we should just type out the post numbers.

#343 bigleagueslider

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:48

That is the likely reason. My current car is a BMW 120 turbodiesel. It redlines close to 6,000 rpm but I have no reason to take it there. It has so much power in low revs that I never exceed 1,700 rpm in the city and 4,500 on the motorway. If you translate this to a racing diesel you will see slightly higher rpm but the power still comes much more from the torque than in a racing petrol engine. For me it is simply much more fun to drive the torquy engine and feel the grunt all the time than ride the sceamers that are always on an impossible small edge of a working rev band. Current F1 engines have incredible small rev bands and can't even make a start below 14,000 rpm for lack of torque. The petrol engine uses 22% of the rev band where the diesel utilizes 70%. For the racing driver it is driveability for the road car driver it is the experience of power even at low speeds that makes the appeal of the turbocharged engine.


For sure there is difference between how an SI F1 engine is designed to operate and how your road-going BMW turbodiesel is designed to operate. Automotive DI turbodiesels don't operate efficiently above about 4,000 or 5,000 rpm due to their combustion characteristics. DI diesels operate closer to constant pressure combustion conditions, which results in more sluggish combustion than the constant volume combustion of an SI engine. While the diesel engine can be run at rpm's higher than the typical 4,000 or 5,000 rpm, there is no additional power to be gained from doing so because the combustion rate can't keep up and it just produces more black smoke.

Auto engine designers well understand the thermodynamic principles behind gasoline and diesel engines. The current trend for auto engines is downsized DI gasoline engines, using lots of boost and low rpm's. These gasoline engines are achieving BTE rates close to what diesels get, for a much lower cost.

Regards,
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