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Auto Union Streamliner - Reims 1938


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#1 David Lawson

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:34

I have Chris Nixon's "Racing the Silver Arrows" and "Auto Union Album, 1934-1939" but neither book answers my question.

What race number did Rudi Hasse have for the Streamliner that he crashed in practice?

On page 191 of the Auto Union Album the photograph of the damaged car in the cornfield shows the car without any numbers on the bodywork, on page 187 the photograph of the car in the pits has a number on the offside which is partially obscured - it might be 18.

Would anyone know if it was number 18 and whether the car actually ran with it in place during practice.

Thanks for any help.

David

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#2 Rob G

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:01

It was indeed 18, but I don't know the answer to the second part of your question.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:04

This crash came up elsewhere. Here's another picture, supposedly of Hasse, again with no visble number:

http://desmond.image...d...&res=medium

Both streamliners crashed within minutes of each other on the afternoon of June 30th. This is Georges Fraichard's report in Le Petit Parisien1/7/38:

Deux accidents produisirent mal-
heureusement ils parurent fausser
les résultats de la journée en raffine
temps qu'ils jetèrent la consternation
Hasse [Auto Union) effectua une
embardée à la sortie de Gueux et
s'immobilisa dans un champ. Mais
il se tira indemne de l'aventure.

Les coureura pouvaient considérer
avoir ainsi payé leur tribut au sort
mauvais Il n'en était rien, Hélas
peu avant 16 heures, on apprenalt
que Muller venait à son tout d'être
victime d'un accident. Sa voiture
s'était mise à zigzaguer peu après
Gueux dans un léger virage. Elle
avait escaladé un vallon et, reve-
nant sur la toute. avait effectué deux
ou trois loopings.

Le coureur allemand Muller a été
radiographié à la fin de l'après-midi.
On a constaté qu'il était atteint d'une
fracture du sacrum. $on état quoi-
que sérieux, n'inspire pas d'inquié-
tude.

What has always struck me as odd is that there seem to be no pictures of Müller's car after its adventures: if Fraichard is to be believed it must have been pretty messed up.

#4 David Lawson

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:02

Thanks for the replies.

The picture you sent the link to is also in the Nixon book.

I hadn't realised there were two streamliners entered and crashed during Reims practice so I wonder if it was the Muller car ran that without race numbers and has been wrongly captioned in the book?

David

#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:33

As Müller was #18 on the entry list and Hasse #20 I'd have thought it more likely that Müller drove (and crashed) the streamliner with #18 on it, and Hasse then crashed the unnumbered version.

#6 David Lawson

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:27

I am confused now as on the excellent website, The Golden Era, Hasse is shown as number 18 in the entry list and the results of the French Grand Prix but as number 20 on the grid layout.

David

Edited by David Lawson, 26 March 2012 - 08:27.


#7 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:39

It seems we have an anomaly here. My info came from the F1R Black Book, which lists Kautz #16, Müller #18 and Hasse #20. Müller is listed as the alternative driver for #16, Hasse for #18 and Kautz for #20. The photo on page 207 of Auto Union Album shows the grid with Auto Unions wearing 16 and 20, and all sources say that these were driven by Kautz and Hasse as Müller was too injured to drive On the other hand there must be good reason why Leif went against the Black Book on the Golden Era site. He also says this:

[in practice] Hasse destroyed his car completely but was unhurt. Müller's car on the other hand was only slightly damaged but the driver was unable to race further and had to be replaced by Kautz.

which if correct would indicate that Hasse drove and crashed the #18 streamliner, and Müller the unnumbered version.

:confused: :confused:

Edited by Tim Murray, 26 March 2012 - 09:40.


#8 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:04

Here's an earlier thread on the streamliner:

Streamlined Auto Union

#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:24

You will see on the earlier thread that I asked whether there were two streamlined Auto-Unions. What is the evidence?

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:41

The Fraichard report I quoted confirms that both Müller and Hasse were both driving "voitures nouvelles entièrement carénées" on June 30th. He also gives practice times for all three drivers: Kautz 2'41", Hasse 2'51" and Müller 2'53". I also found times for the following day in l'Ouest Éclair: Kautz 2'47.1" and Hasse 2'50.9". Same paper also gives an unattributed 2'44.8" for an Auto Union on July 2nd - presumably Kautz? - and also supplies the time the organisers "forgot" to issue for the SEFAC - 3'25.2". I've seen another report which excuses Chaboud's performance on the grounds that he was unfamiliar with blown cars :lol: (Sorry - O/T!)

Just speculation, but if the Black Book is correct on the numbering, then perhaps Müller was down to drive a streamliner, with Hasse (and Kautz?) having the choice of a streamliner or a C/D, with that second streamliner being an un-numbered T-car?

I've been trying to find more practice reports, but Gallica seeems to be a bit "Monday-morning-ish" today and has just crashed completely!

#11 GIGLEUX

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:44

Some facts:

-from official programme:
16 Muller
18 Hasse
20 Kautz
-from The Motor July 5,1938 pp1045 to 1048, about the ACF GP:
on the starting line:
16 Hasse
20 Kautz

About practce:
"Thursday's practice showed the Auto-Union if anything faster than the Mercedes down the Garenne Straight, but slower on the lap. Which may be due to the rather inferior abilities of Hasse and Muller. Anyway, the cars didn't seem to handle too well and then both Hasse and Muller piled up for no apparent reason on the back leg of the course. Hasse up-ended the super-streamlined car which was being used owing to the high speeds expected on this circuit. Muller went end over end and was removed to hospital with injuries which, while not severe, will kept him out of racing for some time. This left Kautz and Hasse, with two ordinary cars.
At one time it looked as if Auto-Union would withdrew, as they had lost one driver and the fastest car."

So only one stremlined car!

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:42

We seem to have several contradictions here. Le Petit Parisien does specify "voitures nouvelles entièrement carénées" in the plural. And we do clearly have one numbered car and one un-numbered one.

Equally, I'll admit that a copy-taker might have missed the word "une", since the full sentence as published is "Muller et Hasse, qui pilotent pour Auto Union voitures nouvelles entièrement carénées ..."

But later in the report - discussing the possibility the race might be cancelled - it says "Deux des trois étant indisponibles, une seule voiture de cette marque pouvait prendre le départ dimanche." So - two damaged, one serviceable? Yet it would seem highly unlikely AU would arrive at a GP without at least one spare car - and in the end they ran two C/Ds.

I'd also like a definite meaning for un looping: a spin? Or a roll? Going up a bank and then "regaining the road" could suggest either, although The Motor's report seems to suggest a roll.

#13 GIGLEUX

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:17

In the "Le Petit Méridional", July 3 issue, is a photo of Muller's car: it is a C/D one, with n°16!

#14 GIGLEUX

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:24

Richard, I just send you an e-mail with the picture. You can publish it here.

#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:33

Now we have three permutations for the numbers:

Leif Snellman (Golden Era)

16. Kautz
18. Hasse
20. Müller

F1 Register Black Book

16. Kautz
18. Müller
20. Hasse

Programme

16. Müller
18. Hasse
20. Kautz

Curiouser and curiouser. :confused:

Edited by Tim Murray, 26 March 2012 - 14:40.


#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:34

Et voila!

Posted Image

#17 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:16

So the car that Müller crashed was number 16 and was not streamlined. We also know from photographs that the cars in the race were 16 (Kautz) and 20 (Hasse).

THe mystery seems to be a picture of a streamlined car in the pits with number 18 and another of it crashed with no number.

#18 David Lawson

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:48

And this mystery is what prompted me to ask the question in post 1. I'm pleased that it has been confirmed that there was only one streamliner but I cannot fathom why the numbers were removed from the car before practising it?

David

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:58

But equally to the point, why did Hasse race with a car numbered 20?

Posted Image

Posted Image

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:40

The most interesting question is what is the second car behind the streamliner in the pits? It's very blurred but...

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:27

Another streamliner? It does look to have faired-in wheels ...

I also wonder what Don Alfredo is thinking.

#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:39

It also has the hinged wheel spat which can be seen in other photos of the streamliner.

#23 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:42

Another shot of the car in the field:

Posted Image

Two comparison pictures. Langheck:

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Kurzheck:

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#24 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 20:16

Possible scenario:

June 30th: AU have arrived with four cars. C/Ds for Müller (#16) and Kautz (#20). D-type streamliner for Hasse (#18) plus a second streamliner as spare car - unnumbered. Hasse's car gives trouble and he takes over the spare. So in this picture we see Neubauer spying on whatever the problem might be, while an AU mechanic fettles the spare car in the background:

Posted Image

Hasse crashes the spare streamliner:

Posted Image

Müller then crashes #16:

Posted Image

Kautz is fastest AU driver by some margin.

July 1st: Hasse's #18 is now repaired and he runs this in practice. Kautz again runs #20 and is once more faster than Hasse. Meanwhile, having been persuaded not to go home, AU commence repairs on Müller's #16 in case it is needed as a spare.

July 2nd: Hasse continues to practice in the #18 streamliner, but is still unable to beat Kautz's times in the C/D. (NB: this was the only time Kautz out-qualified Hasse in 1938.)

July 3rd: Hasse exercises droit de seigneur as team leader and - either because he considers the #18 car uncompetitive or it's broken down again (or even because he's German and Kautz isn't?) - takes over the faster (and uncrashed) #20 C/D, relegating Kautz to the hastily-repaired #16. This happens late on the morning of the race and there is no time to swap numbers.

On lap 1 of the race, Hasse spins off early, while Kautz hits a kerb and retires with a broken rear axle (already weakened by Müller's crash?)

#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:14

In The Robert Fellowes Collection Chris Nixon wrote:

Auto Union caused a sensation by sending two brand new streamliners to France but, sadly, Rudolf Hasse and H.P. Müller crashed both on the first day of practice! (Fellowes was not present, so there are no pictures of these intriguing cars, which never appeared again).

We now know that Müller didn’t crash a streamliner, but the implication as I read it is that Fellowes missed only the first day of practice. If this is correct the remaining streamliner didn’t appear again, or he would surely have photographed it.


#26 David McKinney

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:06

Does anyone have a copy of Peter Kirchberg's Grand-Prix-Report Auto Union 1934-39?

I no longer have mine, but seem to recall it had detailed reports of which car was used when. Perhaps it didn't do so for every race...

#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:16

Does anyone have a copy of Peter Kirchberg's Grand-Prix-Report Auto Union 1934-39?

I no longer have mine, but seem to recall it had detailed reports of which car was used when. Perhaps it didn't do so for every race...

I have two. (East and West German editions - just for completeness!)

But there's nothing about the 1938 French GP.

#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 18:19

Now that Gallica has slept off its hangover and my laptop has recovered from a minor fit of the vapours ...

I haven't solved David's original question, but I have found a few more details.

Firstly, just when you thought it couldn't get more complicated, according to Le Matin (1/7), Müller was driving Kautz's car (which agrees with the Black Book numbering). It also gives a description of his accident - including the fact that it dropped 2 metres off a bank :eek: - and says that AU had already requested and been granted a special practice session on Saturday morning from 6-8.

The following day Le Figaro tells us that "... les dirigeants de la firme [AU] ont déclaré qu'ils feraient face à leurs obligations et qu'ils présenteraient le troisième bolide et une voiture de remplacement". However, there is no indication anywhere whether this voiture de remplacement was to be the car Müller had crashed or a fresh chassis from Zwickau. Also on July 2nd, Le Matin reported that the previous day "Une seule Auto Union pilotée successivement par Hasse et Kautz a tourné prudemment ..." This is confirmed in Le Petit Parisien.

The voiture de remplacement presumably arrived on (or had been repaired by) July 1st, since Le Figaro's report of that final session on the 2nd tells us that: "Seules ont roulé les deux voitures Auto Union."

Finally, some more entry lists:

Le Matin and Le Petit Parisien (2/7): 16 Kautz 18 Hasse

Le Figaro (3/7): 16 Kautz 20 Hasse

#29 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 23:42

The Fraichard report I quoted confirms that both Müller and Hasse were both driving "voitures nouvelles entièrement carénées" on June 30th. He also gives practice times for all three drivers: Kautz 2'41", Hasse 2'51" and Müller 2'53". I also found times for the following day in l'Ouest Éclair: Kautz 2'47.1" and Hasse 2'50.9". Same paper also gives an unattributed 2'44.8" for an Auto Union on July 2nd - presumably Kautz? - and also supplies the time the organisers "forgot" to issue for the SEFAC - 3'25.2". I've seen another report which excuses Chaboud's performance on the grounds that he was unfamiliar with blown cars :lol: (Sorry - O/T!)

Just speculation, but if the Black Book is correct on the numbering, then perhaps Müller was down to drive a streamliner, with Hasse (and Kautz?) having the choice of a streamliner or a C/D, with that second streamliner being an un-numbered T-car?

I've been trying to find more practice reports, but Gallica seeems to be a bit "Monday-morning-ish" today and has just crashed completely!

Kautz' 2'41" was better than the time credited to him on the grid. Was Thursday practice unofficial or did he change cars later in practice?

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 00:09

Kautz' 2'41" was better than the time credited to him on the grid. Was Thursday practice unofficial or did he change cars later in practice?

At a guess, the latter: perhaps that's the time he set up in the Saturday morning session in the spare and/or rebuilt car?

#31 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:00

At a guess, the latter: perhaps that's the time he set up in the Saturday morning session in the spare and/or rebuilt car?

I inferred from your earlier post that he set the 2'41" on the 30th.

We know from previous discussions that grid positions at Reims in the 50s depended on the car, not the driver. See, for example, the thread about pole position in 1956. Did the same apply in the 30s?

As A-U asked for an extra practice session on Saturday morning (Le Matin), is it possible that they had repaired Müller's car by then and wanted to try it prior to Kautz setting his grid time (2'43") during official practice?

#32 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:29

It appears that the the grid positions were determined by times set only in the two previously arranged official sessions on Thursday and Friday, since Hasse's time in the Saturday session was not taken into account. As you'll note, there are some minor discrepancies between the reports of the Friday session, but all the officially-issued times can be identified. I had actually misread the Petit Parisien report, which gives Kautz's time as 2'43" :blush:

Practice times 30/6 as published in both l'Ouest Éclair & Le Matin on 1/7
Lang 2'39.2"
Brauchitsch 2'40.7"
Caracciola 2'41.9"
Kautz 2'43.0"
Seaman 2'43.3"
Muller 2'51.4"
Hasse 2'53.4"
Carrière 2'59.7"
Etancelin 3'01.3"
[Chaboud did not practice?]

Practice times 1/7 as published in Le Figaro 2/7. There are discrepancies in both l'Ouest Éclair & Le Matin
Seaman 2'41.6" (listed only in Le Figaro)
Caracciola 2'42.5" (2'44.4" in both l'Ouest Éclair & Le Matin)
Lang 2'42.5" (2'44.2" in both l'Ouest Éclair & Le Matin)
Brauchitsch 2'55.0"
Kautz 2'47.1 (2'47.2 in Le Matin)
Hasse 2'50.9'
Carrière 2'57.0"
(Bigalke 2'59.8" in l'Ouest Éclair only)
Etancelin 3'07.0" (3'00.7" in Le Matin)
Chaboud 3'32.0"

Practice times for the extra session 2/7 as published in Le Matin 3/7
Hasse 2'44.8"
Kautz 2'48'4"
Chaboud 3'25.2"

Grid
Lang 2'39.2" (Thursday)
Brauchitsch 2'40.7" (Thursday)
Caracciola 2'41.9" (Thursday)
Kautz 2'43.0" (Thursday)
Hasse 2'50.9" (Friday)
Carriere 2'59.7" (Thursday)
Etancelin 3'00.7" (Friday as per Le Matin)
Chaboud no official time issued
Wimille no time recorded - did not practice

Edited by Vitesse2, 31 March 2012 - 10:53.


#33 Roger Clark

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 17:22

Thanks. I'm less confused now.