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BBC Four, 1st April 9pm; 'Madness on Wheels: Rallying's Craziest Years'


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#1 Shockabuku

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:11

From the BBC Website:

From the producer of Grand Prix: The Killer Years and the Grierson-nominated Deadliest Crash: The 1966 Le Mans Disaster.

In the 1980s rallying was more popular than Formula 1. 'Group B' machines had taken the world by storm. De-regulation opened the way for the most exciting cars ever to hit the motorsport scene. Nothing like it has ever happened since.
'This is the fastest rallying there has ever been' - Peter Foubister.

For four wild and crazy years manufacturers scrambled to build ever more powerful cars to be driven by fearless mavericks who could handle the extreme power. The sport was heading out of control and the unregulated mayhem ended abruptly in 1986 after a series of horrific tragedies. This is the story of when fans, ambition, politics and cars collided.

'The fans were crazy. As the cars sped by the spectators ran into the road!' - Ari Vatanen

'They were playing with their lives'.

'To go rallying is madness. This was refined madness' - John Davenport

Featuring world champions Ari Vatanen, Walter Rohrl, Stig Blomqvist, plus Michel Mouton, Cesar Fiorio, Jean Todt and many many more.


Programme details on BBC website

Given that the following Sunday will hopefully have the Gordon Murray documentary, perhaps 9pm on Sunday evenings are going to become a regular slot for motorsport programmes on BBC Four? I hope so!

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#2 kayemod

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:26

"In the 1980s rallying was more popular than Formula 1."

Really? I've never heard that claim before.

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:01

No doubt based on the alleged attendance of a million+ spectators on the RAC - much more than at the British GP

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:26

Who's this Michel Mouton bloke, then?;)

#5 kayemod

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:30

Who's this Michel Mouton bloke, then?;)


Wasn't he married to Sandra Munari?


#6 Hamish Robson

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:37

"Deadliest Crash: The 1966 Le Mans Disaster" :drunk:

Surprised the 24hr race lasted after two disasters in 11 years.

#7 kayemod

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:43

"Deadliest Crash: The 1966 Le Mans Disaster" :drunk:

Surprised the 24hr race lasted after two disasters in 11 years.


I think Ferrari considered it was a bit of a disaster for them.

#8 AAGR

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:45

Who's this Michel Mouton bloke, then?;)


One of the nicest and most charming characters (Michel who ?) I have ever met ....

#9 nmansellfan

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:46

I wonder if the programme will mention the myth of Henri Toivonen taking the Delta S4 around Estoril fast enough for time in the top 10 of the grid for the 1986 Portugese GP...

Still hugely loking forward to the programme though, I did enjoy the Deadliest Crash and Grand Prix - The Kiler Years, even if the titles were both a bit sensationalist.

I can't remember there ever being a documentary shown on mainstream TV about Group B rally cars before - I don't think you cant call Motors TV a mainstream TV channel!

#10 dank

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:26

Didn't enjoy The Killer Years and the blurb for this documentary leads me to believe it will be more sensationalist tripe.

Hopefully I'll be proved wrong though.

#11 RS2000

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 20:27

I wonder if the programme will mention the myth of Henri Toivonen taking the Delta S4 around Estoril fast enough for time in the top 10 of the grid for the 1986 Portugese GP...
I can't remember there ever being a documentary shown on mainstream TV about Group B rally cars before - I don't think you cant call Motors TV a mainstream TV channel!


Another myth it will no doubt promote is that all GpB cars were "supercars". It will probably not mention that GpB (originally intended as an FIA race category) had, in it's earliest year, exactly the same technical regulations as GpA, save for allowing dry-sumping. The only other difference being the 200 vs 5000 minimum production quantity. Neither made provision for "Evolution". Manufacturers' lobbying soon changed that...
GpB included almost anything on 4 wheels that anyone wanted to rally that couldn't achieve GpA homologation. (It had to because the change to this Appendix J would otherwise have had dire effect on private entries in Internationals, despite the associated FIA decision to allow Gps 2 and 4 to run on for 2 years). No-one involved at the time will surely believe the primary aim of the then new Appendix J was other than an assault on the British Gp1 cars and their "options", "alternative production source" items etc.
Despite having rallied a GpB car Internationally for 2 years (one that was effectively in the former Gp1 spec...), I for one hated the entire GpB era so many fawn over. It killed rallying as we knew it. No better example of that is last weekend's round of the British Championship being to all intents halted halfway through because, after delays, there were no provisions in place to run on in the dark.

#12 Gary C

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 20:34

lads, my dvd is STILL available! LOL. www.racrallydvd.com


#13 RS2000

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 21:26

lads, my dvd is STILL available! LOL. www.racrallydvd.com


Would that be the one about the year we first sunk to "office hours" rallying on the RAC?

#14 Gary C

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 21:37

thanks for that.

#15 john aston

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:20

Another myth it will no doubt promote is that all GpB cars were "supercars". It will probably not mention that GpB (originally intended as an FIA race category) had, in it's earliest year, exactly the same technical regulations as GpA, save for allowing dry-sumping. The only other difference being the 200 vs 5000 minimum production quantity. Neither made provision for "Evolution". Manufacturers' lobbying soon changed that...
GpB included almost anything on 4 wheels that anyone wanted to rally that couldn't achieve GpA homologation. (It had to because the change to this Appendix J would otherwise have had dire effect on private entries in Internationals, despite the associated FIA decision to allow Gps 2 and 4 to run on for 2 years). No-one involved at the time will surely believe the primary aim of the then new Appendix J was other than an assault on the British Gp1 cars and their "options", "alternative production source" items etc.
Despite having rallied a GpB car Internationally for 2 years (one that was effectively in the former Gp1 spec...), I for one hated the entire GpB era so many fawn over. It killed rallying as we knew it. No better example of that is last weekend's round of the British Championship being to all intents halted halfway through because, after delays, there were no provisions in place to run on in the dark.

Hmm- I do not 'fawn 'over it but having watched many ralies 'live' during the Gp B era it was without doubt the most exciting period of rallying I have ever seen. The cars were absurdly fast, sounded astonishing ,the drivers were almost household names and the RAC was still the RAC. I foor one had got a bit bored of nearly 20 years worth of Escort type cars- I love to watch them but rallying seemed to be stagnant until the Gp B era came along. And Gp B didn't kill modern rallying- we had many years of succesful McRae era Impreza's etc. What did kill it was the utterly tedious recent versions of WRC with over teched and underpowered cars= and the appalling TV coverage and cloverleaf format.

#16 RCH

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:30

Another myth it will no doubt promote is that all GpB cars were "supercars". It will probably not mention that GpB (originally intended as an FIA race category) had, in it's earliest year, exactly the same technical regulations as GpA, save for allowing dry-sumping. The only other difference being the 200 vs 5000 minimum production quantity. Neither made provision for "Evolution". Manufacturers' lobbying soon changed that...
GpB included almost anything on 4 wheels that anyone wanted to rally that couldn't achieve GpA homologation. (It had to because the change to this Appendix J would otherwise have had dire effect on private entries in Internationals, despite the associated FIA decision to allow Gps 2 and 4 to run on for 2 years). No-one involved at the time will surely believe the primary aim of the then new Appendix J was other than an assault on the British Gp1 cars and their "options", "alternative production source" items etc.
Despite having rallied a GpB car Internationally for 2 years (one that was effectively in the former Gp1 spec...), I for one hated the entire GpB era so many fawn over. It killed rallying as we knew it. No better example of that is last weekend's round of the British Championship being to all intents halted halfway through because, after delays, there were no provisions in place to run on in the dark.


Glad to see mention of the fact that Group B was intended as a race category. However it was really just a way of homologating 2 seat sports/GT cars. The manufacturers realised that building 200 off, anything goes, homologation specials was the obvious way to go. It could I guess have happened with Group 3/4 and did to a certain extent. The net result was a breed of car which I believe changed the face of rallying and attitudes to rallying for the worse. If for no other reason the banning of Group B meant the banning of the sort of car that it was originally intended for.

I'm very much with you, I think just prior to the arrival of 4 wheel drive was really the golden age. Escort RS, Fiat Mirafiori, Chevette HSR, Sunbeam Lotus, TR7 V8; all in truth highly modified from production but not so far that the production car base was lost.

#17 rallen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:42

On Twitter Motorsport Magazine urges everyone to watch it and says it is amazing. For what it's worth..

#18 john aston

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:10

Well I thought it ws pretty damn good. Lots of footage I had not seen before,if rather too much emphasis on insane latin fans getting too close to the cars. I was hiding behind a tree in Dalby when the quattros came out to play. And Michele Mouton still looks gorgeous

#19 Gary C

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:55

a (short) clip from my DVD : http://www.youtube.c...mp;feature=plcp



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#20 RTH

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:34

I'm very much with you, I think just prior to the arrival of 4 wheel drive was really the golden age. Escort RS, Fiat Mirafiori, Chevette HSR, Sunbeam Lotus, TR7 V8; all in truth highly modified from production but not so far that the production car base was lost.



Spot on. and nothing to stop them going back to RWD and n/a engines now.4 day rallies and 200 +entries

#21 Macca

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:48

The closing line in the prog said about shorter rallies and better crowd control nowadays .......no mention of having gone from 400hp 4-w-d beasts to 300hp 4-w-d beast,s that have got closer to road cars only in that the engine has to be at the same end.

Also you'd think from the prog that there had been no fatalities before the 1980s and none since the end of GpB....

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 02 April 2012 - 09:49.


#22 Phil Rainford

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:15

I thought it was excellent ....although all the time you felt you were being taken on a journey that was not going end happily

Bonkers era; but the drivers certainly claimed to have enjoyed it


PAR

#23 kayemod

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:45

Spot on. and nothing to stop them going back to RWD and n/a engines now.4 day rallies and 200 +entries


I understand your point, but didn't you mean 2wd? Limiting entries to n/a rwd would probably mean the odd win for BMW, from a painfully thin field.


#24 Allan Lupton

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:33

I understand your point, but didn't you mean 2wd? Limiting entries to n/a rwd would probably mean the odd win for BMW, from a painfully thin field.

It's about time the manufacturers went back to using the back wheels for something more than just keeping that end of the car off the road. If rallies went back to 2WD they'd soon recognise the advantage of rear drive and have to at least produce homologation specials that the rest of us could buy.

ETA and before a dedicated Front Drive enthusiast bites my head off, if it were so good why go to the complexity of 4WD on rally cars and why is even RWD not allowed in modern saloon car racing? It's the physics, you know!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 02 April 2012 - 11:36.


#25 kayemod

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:47

It's about time the manufacturers went back to using the back wheels for something more than just keeping that end of the car off the road. If rallies went back to 2WD they'd soon recognise the advantage of rear drive and have to at least produce homologation specials that the rest of us could buy.

ETA and before a dedicated Front Drive enthusiast bites my head off, if it were so good why go to the complexity of 4WD on rally cars and why is even RWD not allowed in modern saloon car racing? It's the physics, you know!


I'd have to agree with that, after what seems like a lifetime of fwd with one Quattro period, my current road car is rwd, and with what must be the ultimate in traction control and esp, I rather like it. RCH's n/a engines stipulation would prevent me from entering one of his rallys though, that and the risk of acquiring a scratch or two.


#26 rallen

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:20

I watched this last night and indeed press ganged the lady of the house into watching it (suprised she let me put it on to be honest) I must say I thought it was amazing. I have no real knowedge of Rallying at all, knowing none of the history and my partner is not interested in motor racing on any level (interesting she loved Senna though)

We were both absolutly awestruck - to be honest I was terrified watching it, you knew bad things were going to happen but you wern't sure to whom, the speed and the skill where phenominal - I just can't understand how there wern't even more serious accidents.

So I am sure the real fan's and fanatics may have found it 'lite' or dissapointing but to me and indeed my GF it blew us away and gave us a genuin understanding and now passion for Rallying.

I am sure you guy's have all seen this but a Rally fan at work showed me this which is also worth a watch

While this was a great introduction to Rallying's past are there any docs (books)out there that deal with what went before Group B? would like to know more about the history and explore more,

#27 kayemod

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:56

This is what rallying should be like, great driver on top of his form, great car, great event, though it's 'Snijers' and not 'Snyers'..



The first BMW M3, the original one, was one of the greatest cars ever, whether in road, race or rally form, truly God's chariot, and n/a rwd to boot.

Edited by kayemod, 02 April 2012 - 13:56.


#28 dank

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 13:48

While this was a great introduction to Rallying's past are there any docs (books)out there that deal with what went before Group B? would like to know more about the history and explore more,


I can thoroughly recommend the recently released Group 4 book by McKlien.

Phenomenal read and easily one of the best motor racing books ever published (check out the Group B follow-up as well).

#29 RTH

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 13:50

I understand your point, but didn't you mean 2wd? Limiting entries to n/a rwd would probably mean the odd win for BMW, from a painfully thin field.



No I did mean RWD..... only all the current little hatches in the WRC are 4 wheel drive, never mind they are not offered in the showroom in that form so, easy enough to take off the front driveshafts.

Rear wheel drive on the loose is vastly more entertaining to watch

Use the previous BTCC engine regs 2 litre n/a 8500 rev limited engines. All the manufacturers already have these. min 6 inches of ground clearance and no aerofoils and rally format more along the lines of 20 years ago. No electronic traction or braking aids fully manual gearboxes, limited tyres and servicing


#30 nmansellfan

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 14:17

This is what rallying should be like, great driver on top of his form, great car, great event, though it's 'Snijers' and not 'Snyers'..



The first BMW M3, the original one, was one of the greatest cars ever, whether in road, race or rally form, truly God's chariot, and n/a rwd to boot.


Without even clicking on the link I know which video you are referring to, Kayemod. Never has the phrase 'maximum attack' been so justified, I think...

In last nights programme, was it a Manta 400 or an Escort that Ari Vatenen was driving with the onboard camera at what looked like the Isle of Man? That was a vivid demonstration of speed and skill at the same time as well.

#31 Hamish Robson

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:15

In last nights programme, was it a Manta 400 or an Escort that Ari Vatenen was driving with the onboard camera at what looked like the Isle of Man? That was a vivid demonstration of speed and skill at the same time as well.


Ari Vatanen/Terry Harryman, Opel Manta 400, Tholt-Y-Wil stage on the "Manx". If you ever get a chance then drive that stage and then go back and watch the footage again. Ari most mostly flat in 4th and 5th down there, in 4th when he clipped the wall and collected the car just in time to get through the cattlegrid/gate. "Dear God" as Harryman can be heard to say...

I've watched half this program so far. I'll not comment until I've finished it. Strange to resurrect the subject now, at least it gets rallying back on mainstream tv.

#32 RS2000

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 16:12

Harryman's "Dear God" was Manta 400. (Vatanen was with Richards during the Rothmans Escort years).

I found the programme almost as bad as expected.
Poor taste verging on Ron Howard's separated head in showing the Portugal casualties, except this was real...
Chronology (and thus history) revised to make a better story. So much more logical that the 037 should come before the Quattro - why spoil that logic with the reverse being fact? (and no mention that effectively the same Quattro was a Gp4 car before GpB even appeared, so the performance "step" was nothing to do with GpB). No reference to times being quicker now and after just a few years of GpA. No reference to safety measures applied since, especially for spectators (although that aspect may still be the death of rallying if lager-swilling louts in Clocaenog persist).
Little addressing the real technical problem - construction of some GpB cars and most not based on a steel shell.
RS200 was "Ford's ugly duckling" was it? I seem to remember it being widely considered the best looking of all the works "supercar" GpB cars, not that I liked any of them in period, or now.
Some interesting people interviewed - more than you would expect for something of this sensationalist nature. The injured spectator still blaming Santos for being "too inexperienced" rather than himself for standing on the edge of the track takes some sort of prize but I daren't say what in public. What a bizarre thing to show to the non-expert public. Was the sole intention of this hatchet job to damage motorsport?

Favourite moment by a long way - Rohrl showing he's still made no concession to personal modesty even after all these years : "Toivonen was the only one who could equal me - but on one stage only, then he'd crash". Really Walter? I don't recall you really cutting it at all on unseen forest stages...

Edited by RS2000, 02 April 2012 - 16:16.


#33 Phil Rainford

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 18:22

http://www.newspress...amp;pr_ref=8958

Group B returns to the UK :eek:



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#34 MCS

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 19:10

For UK residents, it's on BBC iPlayer.

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 19:46

For UK residents, it's on BBC iPlayer.

... and repeated tomorrow (Tuesday) at 8.00pm.

#36 rallen

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 19:53

Favourite moment by a long way - Rohrl showing he's still made no concession to personal modesty even after all these years : "Toivonen was the only one who could equal me - but on one stage only, then he'd crash". Really Walter? I don't recall you really cutting it at all on unseen forest stages...


How good was Rohrl then? compared to the others in the programme? I ask as someone very interested but has no knowledge of Rallying.

One other thing about the programme - growing up to me it was all about f1 - so it was great to see interviews with the rally drivers from back in the day being normal and honest and not up themselves - unlike some f1 drivers from that era...

#37 Kop Alonso

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 20:17


I thought the bit where Cesare Fiorio was talking about Henri was very moving .

It got me thinking I wonder if there any books on Fiorio , I bet he has some amazing stories to tell ?

:up:

#38 RS2000

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 21:27

How good was Rohrl then? compared to the others in the programme? I ask as someone very interested but has no knowledge of Rallying.


He was probably the best on heavily-practiced tarmac stages. (those in the sport knew that, so why did he always seem to feel the need to remind people?). He sometimes sounds more arrogant simply because he is speaking what is not his first language but there's no denying his words!
The reason most would not place him at the top of any list of "greatest of all rally drivers" is a perceived weakness on "unseen" stages on the loose (the RAC Rally in particular) - and that was almost certainly more a case of a basic mental block, as he really had some pretty good performances in what was never the best forest car of its (a bit earlier than GpB) time (Ascona A, Kadet C, Fiat 131 etc.). He just seemed to convince himself he hated those events.

#39 RS2000

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 21:37

I wonder if there any books on Fiorio , I bet he has some amazing stories to tell ?


Especially when you add managing Mansell at Ferrari to his long rally career!
I'm not entirely sure how much he actually did "in the field" though, with Nini Russo and Giorgio Pianta in the "on event" Lancia rally team.



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#40 Kop Alonso

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 21:53

He was probably the best on heavily-practiced tarmac stages. (those in the sport knew that, so why did he always seem to feel the need to remind people?). He sometimes sounds more arrogant simply because he is speaking what is not his first language but there's no denying his words!
The reason most would not place him at the top of any list of "greatest of all rally drivers" is a perceived weakness on "unseen" stages on the loose (the RAC Rally in particular) - and that was almost certainly more a case of a basic mental block, as he really had some pretty good performances in what was never the best forest car of its (a bit earlier than GpB) time (Ascona A, Kadet C, Fiat 131 etc.). He just seemed to convince himself he hated those events.



He was an increbible driver on the Monte but on the RAC Hannu was much better.

I am sure after winning the chmapionship with Opel he didnt have the motivation to do the RAC that year so Tony Fall sent him on gardening leave.

Then there was the famous incident in Portugal 84 where when he could no longer win he offered to slow down for Mikkola so he could avoid the dust.

A man of real contrasts I think ?

#41 BRG

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:16

In his day, I reckon Rohrl was the best. Indeed, until young Master Loeb appeared, Rohrl was probably the best of all time (and I say that as a confirmed Stig Blomqvist fan). Just because he was not happy on unseen stages is hardly a valid argument against him - only the RAC was run without recces and notes in those days, and it is really very insular to say that, because the UK had a peculiar situation where the Forestry Commission would not countenance recces, making UK rallying out of step with the rest of the world, Rohrl was therefore deficient. The comment about Toivonen did sound arrogant, but it was probably true. A lot of people view Henri through rose coloured glasses because of his premature loss - I am not sure he was as wonderful as some think. Still amazingly good, nevertheless.

As for the programme overall, I accept RS2000's criticisms fully, but this sort of thing is not aimed at the cognoscenti, but at the more casual viewer. A five minute dissertation on the ins and outs of Appendix J would have them switching off in droves. So the details get fudged, but the main message was about a period of manic action that had disaster written all over it. Even at the time, I (and I am sure most of the rest of us) could see that a massive disaster was inevitable whilst events like Portugal were allowed to continue as they were. Even with Group 4, it would have only been a matter of time before someone stuffed a car into the crowd at Fafe or Sintra and caused carnage. Knowing that it was a production based car , not a Group B supercar would not have made people any less dead or maimed. As for the idiot spectator still claiming it was Santos's fault, like RS2000, I find it hard to find words to describe my views about him. Let's just say that the Darwin Awards are aimed at people like him.

There were really two issues. One was irresponsibly run events (generally in the Mediterranean area) and the other was cars that were dangerous to their crews. The first just needed some backbone by the FIA, but that has rarely been forthcoming until after something dreadful happens. The second.... well that needed the FIA to recognise the dangers as well. Allowing spaceframe cars with flimsy kevlar body panels onto rally stages was a stupid idea, but it took the loss of a top line driver to persuade the powers that be. Losing Bettega was not apparently sufficiently convincing.

#42 rallen

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:08

thanks for the info guy's. I can say that as a newbie so to speak to Rallying - this programme was amazing and informative for me but I appreciate to people with a real passion or knowlege of it, it could great in places. F1 is more my passion generally and though I liked Senna and 'The Killer Years' the lack of detail or the innacuraces drove me mad - so I can see it from your point of view too! Either way this has inspired me to delve into it more and become a follower/fan and I suppose that's what we can hope for with programmes of this nature.

Really appeciate the comments about certain drivers, is there a generic sort of list of the top rally drivers? I know a lot of people hate best of lists but to the uniformed they are useful in gaining an understanding - yes it's subjective but a newby to formula one just has to be told, that the top 3 tend to be Clark, Fangio, Moss in any order or whatever. Cricket - Bradman/Hammond/Hobbs or in music you tend to see Sgt Pepper or The Queen is Dead listed and then you check them out. Yes it's all subjective but is there a rough list of say the 10 great rally drivers?

From clips that was shown in the programme, to both me and the GF (the enemy!) Ari's driving seemed to stand out compared to others, was he a great natural driver but not nessisarly with the right attitude or disciple as say Walter? Sorry for the questions!

#43 BRG

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 19:53

From clips that was shown in the programme, to both me and the GF (the enemy!) Ari's driving seemed to stand out compared to others, was he a great natural driver but not nessisarly with the right attitude or disciple as say Walter? Sorry for the questions!

Ari was always a bit of a wild man. In his early days, he did crash quite a bit, but usually won the rest of the time. Rohrl was very cool and precise. Both were great natural talents, but people tend to like the flamboyant Vatanen style more than the less spectacular Rohrl style. In more recent days, look at McRae and Loeb as modern day versions.

But Ari is also a very easy person to like. He was (and is) good looking and charming, he is articulate and amusing. Rohrl was and is a rather cold and serious character - probably a lovely bloke, but much less outgoing and personable. That's why Ari was elected as a member of the European Parliament (and for a French constituency IIRC) and Rohrl wasn't - although to be fair, he probably wouldn't want to be an MEP!

#44 chunder27

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:18

For me Carlos will always be the best as he was one of the few drivers to have really no equal on any surface for a time. He was as quick on gravel as tarmac and also managed to push the boundaries of tech and parts to the limit, forcing teams to try new ideas.

Juha I would say was the best gravel driver along with perhaps Gronholm. Didier was for me a very close second to Carlos for the best allrounder, but let down by his fickle nature for car setup.

As for Tommi well he was great on the Monte but rarely looked like winning loads of tarmac rallies, maybe his era wasnot allowing this.

As for sheer speed then Henri and Colin are kings really. And Tommi.

The programme was good, if a little nanny state.

#45 arttidesco

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:34

Just finished watching the programme some interesting footage and observations, what came across particularly strongly is how much the drivers loved driving the cars, shame so many spectators felt compelled to try and touch them as they went hurtling passed, that one then blamed the drivers lack of experience for getting hurt just beggars belief.

Since I am not a rally expert I'll only mention the one howler did some one mention a Porsche 939 ?

As for the best rally driver of all time I'd give that title to Mr Mikkola, though I'm sure if some of the events Hannu won were ever repeated Sebastian Loeb and others might give him a good run for his money  ;)

#46 king_crud

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:40

Oh Ms Muton, how lovely you were and are today!

#47 Kop Alonso

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:40


What the programme also reminded me of was the incredible driving talent around at that time especially on the Audi roster with Mikkola, Mouton, Stig & Rohrl ....no wonder the rest could not catch up till 85.

:up:

#48 AAGR

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:49

Oh Ms Muton, how lovely you were and are today!


And still so charming, so enthusiastic about rallying, and still damn'd fast in a rally car. Incidentally, I loved her off the cuff remark when she rolled her Quattro in the Race of the Champions two winters ago : 'Well, at least it is my event, and my car ....'



#49 RS2000

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 21:00

We musn't go fully OT into "greatest driver" but I think only very recently has Loeb been considered by his peers to be unbeatable, all else equal. That was not the case when Gronholm etc was still active against him. Using the "feared by his peers on every event almost to the point of conceeding", only Timo Makinen (in 60s not 70s) takes the crown - and it is only their peers who can really judge.

A few more horrors from the dreaded BBC4 hatchet:

"83 Monte was the first GpB rally". Did they miss the entire year of 1982 in a time warp?

(Gumpert) "We were driving for a week in Finland and only 7 seconds separated 1st from 2nd". Are you including driving to Finland and back from Ingoldstadt Roland?

(Gp B) "Porsche weighed in with its 939". Did it employ stealth technology, so no one else ever saw it?

(1986) "Group B was dead". No it wasn't - only the over 2000cc class was banned at the end of 86.

Most interesting veiled comment? (or am I reading too much into it?) :

(Autosport's Peter Foubister in the Delta S4 context) "Manufacturers employed all the tricks they could find...and some THEY couldn't". You saw the alleged blue flames Peter?

Edited by RS2000, 03 April 2012 - 21:03.


#50 RS2000

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 21:18

It's too tempting not to repeat verbatim what the late Pentti Airikkala posted on another forum about a year before we lost his outrageous views for ever:
(On Ms Mouton) "She smell, like all French womens" (the comma IS in the correct place).

Pity they couldn't have brought M. Mouton and W. Rohrl together to discuss the "a monkey could drive that car" comment on the Quattro.

I have respect for the lady from Grasse (especially for her time in the Fiat France 131) but, as violently debated on here years ago, I would place Pat Moss as "greatest ever female rally driver" (for the same reason that I place Timo greatest of all - peer opinion in period).