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BBC Four, 1st April 9pm; 'Madness on Wheels: Rallying's Craziest Years'


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#51 Hamish Robson

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:19

Just finished watching this last night, and a couple of comments incensed me.

From the Portuguese man who was hurt in the incident (and of course I have sympathy for him, it was a horrible accident): "When you are in your house and a car loses control outside and hits your house, you don't blame your house." Yes, but your house would not have been getting pi$$ed with it's neighbouring houses and stepping out in to the road trying to touch that car.

From, I think, the ex-Autosport editor: "Toivenen's (sp?) car was already on fire when it left the road". Really? I was under the impression that there were no witnesses to that accident.

For a while I was, apart from the glaring mistakes, enjoying the program (never mind the bored-sounding narrator) but through the last half it just became annoying.

Does anyone know who wrote it? I didn't see a credit.

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#52 Darren Galpin

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:54

There was also the complete hash the BBC made of Oliveira's name - it was visible as Santos' co-driver on the car in one shot, they then put the name on the screen when he was talking as Oliviera, and then the narrator actually said "olivieri". So much for consistency...

#53 dank

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:07

For a while I was, apart from the glaring mistakes, enjoying the program (never mind the bored-sounding narrator) but through the last half it just became annoying.

Does anyone know who wrote it? I didn't see a credit.


Given the sensationalist, melodramatic, nonsense that was spewed out; an ex-Daily Mail journo would be my best bet...

#54 john aston

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:55

Actually -and I know because I was there- Gp B was utterly sensational, the 86 season was melodramatic on occasion and whilst of course there were mistakes in the programme - aka' nonsense' - I thoroughly enjoyed it. Mind you, my wife often accuses me of admiring silver linings and ignoring the clouds :love:.

Edited by john aston, 04 April 2012 - 09:56.


#55 bigears

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:41

I have seen footage of Toivonen's accident (it was from a spectator positioned a distance away from that left hander where Henri went off)

It caught fire when it hit the trees below, not before it went off.

To be honest, I was amazed with the Portuguese spectator about the car, people and house comments. But then that was the viewpoint of the spectators at the time, getting close to the cars and enjoying a carnival atmosphere.

#56 nmansellfan

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:48

From, I think, the ex-Autosport editor: "Toivenen's (sp?) car was already on fire when it left the road". Really? I was under the impression that there were no witnesses to that accident.


There is a video on Youtube of the S4 rolling down the hill having left the road - it explodes into flame halfway down the hill. It's shot from a long way away and you don't see the start of the accident - I imagine this is as close as anyone was at the time.

#57 nmansellfan

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:54

Although they didn't need to show the footage, I think Marc Surer's accident in an RS200 on the '86 Essen rally could have been another nail in the coffin for Group B. That is the most violent crash I think I have ever seen footage of - for that reason I won't post the link to the footage, it's on Youtube if you need to find it. Did the '86 Essen Rally happen before Corsica that year?

#58 Hamish Robson

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:34

Although they didn't need to show the footage, I think Marc Surer's accident in an RS200 on the '86 Essen rally could have been another nail in the coffin for Group B. That is the most violent crash I think I have ever seen footage of - for that reason I won't post the link to the footage, it's on Youtube if you need to find it. Did the '86 Essen Rally happen before Corsica that year?


I saw the wreckage of Surer's car in a shed on the airfield at Boreham, I think around 1989. Terrifying. I'm also surprised that accident wasn't mentioned but, as it wasn't a WRC event and no spectators were hurt maybe the makers didn't deem it "relevent".

#59 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 13:26

From the Portuguese man who was hurt in the incident (and of course I have sympathy for him, it was a horrible accident): "When you are in your house and a car loses control outside and hits your house, you don't blame your house." Yes, but your house would not have been getting pi$$ed with it's neighbouring houses and stepping out in to the road trying to touch that car.

The other Portuguese spectator, who was edited to be shown first, was quite clear it was the fault of him and his fellow-spectators for being where they were, not the driver.

It was another of the many programmes that would have benefitted from a bit of training in pronunciation of "foreign" names. D'Oliviera has already been mentioned and if Cesare Fiorio can say Walter Röhrl why did the voice-over have call him Rohrl?
The ex-Editor of Autosport was not much better.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 04 April 2012 - 13:34.


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#60 Phil Rainford

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 15:21

Le Mans 2010 :love:

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Edited by Phil Rainford, 04 April 2012 - 15:21.


#61 LittleChris

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:20

I think Marc Surer's accident in an RS200 on the '86 Essen rally

Did the '86 Essen Rally happen before Corsica that year?



It was actually the Hessen Rally ( part of the German Rally championship I believe ) and the accident happened on part of the old Schottenring on 31st May .

Toivonen and Cresta's accident happened on 2nd May

#62 David McKinney

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:27

It was another of the many programmes that would have benefitted from a bit of training in pronunciation of "foreign" names

...and English words. Kilometer still gets my goat, though as everyone seems to say it, perhaps it should now be regarded as correct?

#63 cheapracer

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:46

Spot on. and nothing to stop them going back to RWD and n/a engines now.4 day rallies and 200 +entries



No I did mean RWD..... only all the current little hatches in the WRC are 4 wheel drive, never mind they are not offered in the showroom in that form so, easy enough to take off the front driveshafts.

Rear wheel drive on the loose is vastly more entertaining to watch

Use the previous BTCC engine regs 2 litre n/a 8500 rev limited engines. All the manufacturers already have these. min 6 inches of ground clearance and no aerofoils and rally format more along the lines of 20 years ago. No electronic traction or braking aids fully manual gearboxes, limited tyres and servicing


You should be banned for your radical ideas, whatever would the manufacturers do to sell their fine FWD cars that everybody should be driving?

Next thing you'll want working class people entering, having fun and making fields of 100+ competitive, affordable cars again that might challenge the front running factory teams, the nerve of you.

Want somebody think of the Manufacturers!!

#64 cheapracer

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:52

...and English words. Kilometer still gets my goat, though as everyone seems to say it, perhaps it should now be regarded as correct?


Killa-meter in Oz.


#65 David McKinney

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:54

Really? That surprises me

It is of course correct, but when I left NZ 25 years ago (plus) the incorrect alternative was well entrenched

#66 kayemod

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:24

Really? That surprises me

It is of course correct, but when I left NZ 25 years ago (plus) the incorrect alternative was well entrenched


Surely the original French pronunciation is 'correct', kilo-metre


#67 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:33

It would sound bloody silly if those people who say kilometer also started saying kilogram, kilohertz, kilopascal etc.

#68 RS2000

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:55

I only ever hear "klick" used now, not any version of "kilometer". Standard terminology throughout the British Army (who got it, via NATO, from the US Army, who were using it in Vietnam - but their use may date from the ETO in WW2?).



#69 kayemod

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:03

I only ever hear "klick" used now, not any version of "kilometer".


I think most of us would agree that this thread has now drifted several "klicks" off course.


#70 David McKinney

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:18

It would sound bloody silly if those people who say kilometer also started saying kilogram, kilohertz, kilopascal etc.

...or centimetre, millimetre etc

Your Freudian slip actually points to the problem, Tim. If it's a meter (or gauge) the stress is on the penultimate syllable, if it's a metre (39 inches approx), or part thereof, it's not

Though probably the Americans spell 'kilometre' as 'kilometer'....
(as I did earlier when my brain was switched off)

#71 D-Type

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:23

I say kill-omm-itter but keel-oh-gram, keel-oh-herrtz etc

#72 kayemod

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:33

I say kill-omm-itter but keel-oh-gram, keel-oh-herrtz etc


...let's call the whole thing off.


#73 Hun200kmh

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:43

The moronic portuguese spectators were not the reason for Group B being banned, what happened in 1986 was the spectators fault, not the cars (could've happened with Group 4 cars before, could've happened with Group A cars after). The "portuguese problem" was:
a) In Portugal, rallies were HUGELY popular in those days. Much, much more than Formula 1 or any other kind of motorsports;
b) The usual big (and already not very well disciplined) rally crowds from the late 70's, early 80's saw an enormous increase due, mainly, to the appearance of a group of very talented portuguese rally drivers (Santos, Moutinho, Bica, Rodrigues, Borges, Ortigão many more totally unknown outside PT borders) that got a chance of good rally cars also (Moutinho = R5 Turbo; Santos = RS200; Rodrigues = 037; Bica = 037; Borges = Ascona).
c) Many of the "new" lovers of the sport were unprepared to watch it live, not to mention plain childish and/or stupid in their irresponsible behaviour.


This ... about the "portuguese problem". Now, about Group B.


The way I see it, the manufacturers forgot safety and what happened in the sixties in F1 (exploding cars and drivers burnt alive) had a brief repeat in the 80's Group B cars. Marc Surer's accident is fully televised, unlike what happened in Bettega and Toivonen's case. And it is clear, from those images, that the RS200 suffered from the same problem the S4 did. Under the right (wrong) circumstances of a heavy impact, they would blow up in flames.



#74 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 23:43

Your Freudian slip actually points to the problem, Tim. If it's a meter (or gauge) the stress is on the penultimate syllable, if it's a metre (39 inches approx), or part thereof, it's not

Though probably the Americans spell 'kilometre' as 'kilometer'....
(as I did earlier when my brain was switched off)

I naturally followed your lead, David. :p

#75 cheapracer

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:58

In his day, I reckon Rohrl was the best. Indeed, until young Master Loeb appeared, Rohrl was probably the best of all time. Just because he was not happy on unseen stages is hardly a valid argument against him - only the RAC was run without recces


Val-ta proved to be the best when you consider what he won in and on any surface. 4 Monte's in 4 different cars in 4 vastly different weather conditions is pretty special by itself.

Ari was always a bit of a wild man. In his early days, he did crash quite a bit, but usually won the rest of the time.


Ari's team-mates were generaly faster than Ari - Hannu and Henri no doubt at all and Timo on occasion.


I have seen footage of Toivonen's accident (it was from a spectator positioned a distance away from that left hander where Henri went off)

It caught fire when it hit the trees below, not before it went off.


As I heard it the section of road was a downhill, medium twisty that was handling specific, not power and even the Group A cars were going almost as fast there. Seemed to be a mistake in the notes rather than the fault of being a "too fast" Group B car.

As for the Portugal tragedy, there's plenty of video's of 60hp Renault 5's going off into crowds on Youtube.

#76 cheapracer

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:01

Though probably the Americans spell 'kilometre' as 'kilometer'....


Well for what it's worth, my Google Chrome spell check ie; being American, says kilometer is wrong.

#77 Hamish Robson

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:27

And it is clear, from those images, that the RS200 suffered from the same problem the S4 did. Under the right (wrong) circumstances of a heavy impact, they would blow up in flames.


The RS200's fuel system installation was very different from the S4. The S4 has a tubular chassis (as can be seen in some of the Toivenen post-accident pictures or in freely Google-able cutaways) and the fuel tanks extended under the occupants' seats. The RS200 has an aluminium-honeycomb central chassis section and the two tanks were housed in a substantial box section behind the seats, much like a single seater. From a design point of view this is a much stronger, safer, but unfortunately heavier (the Ford always struggled with weight) construction.

Unfortunately for Surer and his poor co-driver the car left the road sideways on a long, fast right-hander and struck a tree/telegraph pole square amidships which took the back of the car off, behind the seats (remember where those tanks are?). As I say I've seen the wreck and know this to be the case.

This would have destroyed any car, Group B or not.

#78 king_crud

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:32

Killa-meter in Oz.


Straya mate

#79 D-Type

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:21

It's the standard scenario - cars get faster but the road or track they race on doesn't. In the case of closed race circuits you can make them safer (run off areas, gravel traps, Armco, tyre barriers, catch fencing, etc) but you can't do anything about a rally route apart from avoiding the hhighly dangerous ones. You can of course introduce regulations to limit the cars' performance, but car makers are good at getting around the limits so we have more restrictions, etc.

As to the programme. I know very little about rallying. I thoroughly enjoyed it but I did feel that the presentation had been dumbed down and sensationalised. The contrast between the voice-overs and what the participants said was obvious in spite of the selective editing. As a means of informing the general public about the history of rallying and the Group B era it did its job.

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#80 BRG

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:37

You can of course introduce regulations to limit the cars' performance, but car makers are good at getting around the limits so we have more restrictions, etc.

And rallying is a case in point. Today's WRCs have a 1350kg minimum weight (against around 900kg weight for the GpB cars), a restricted 1600cc turbo engine giving supposedly no more than 300bhp (against 500 or so for GpB) & narrower wheels with spec tyres (against free tyres/wheels for GpB). Yet these cars are often quicker than GpB over the same piece of road. Even the GpA cars preceding the WRC formula were quicker.

However, today's car use the metal shell of a production car, not a spaceframe with flimsy fg panels, with extremely well developed cages with door bars etc. So a crash that would have annihilated a GpB Lancia and probably its crew too, is easily survivable without injury - just ask Mr Latvala who demonstrates this on a regular basis. Crowd control has improved immensely. The FIA stewards have no compunction at all in cancelling stages if there are too many spectators or if they are being foolish.

Edited by BRG, 05 April 2012 - 10:38.


#81 GeoffR

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:45

Even the GpA cars preceding the WRC formula were quicker & improved immensely.

From memory it didn't take very long for the Group A cars to be quicker over stages than their Group B predecessors. However this was in an era where technology was advancing rapidly and I believe things like more sophisticated transmission and suspension setups more than compensated for the brute power advantage enjoyed by the Group B Cars.
I still love the bit of footage showing Mikkola (I think) virtually wheelstanding over a crest in the ultimate version of the Audi Quattro. Oh, and M Mouton :love: esp 'back in the day'.


#82 Allan Lupton

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 13:22

...or centimetre, millimetre etc

Your Freudian slip actually points to the problem, Tim. If it's a meter (or gauge) the stress is on the penultimate syllable, if it's a metre (39 inches approx), or part thereof, it's not

Though probably the Americans spell 'kilometre' as 'kilometer'....

They do, and, as with many US usages, it comes from the German (not the French) where the Meter is the unit of length.


#83 Allan Lupton

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 13:24

Oh, and M Mouton :love: esp 'back in the day'.

Revenons à nos moutons :cool:

#84 RS2000

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 20:42

Oh, and M Mouton :love: esp 'back in the day'.


Never, ever understood why. But
Co-driver Frabrizia Pons (face of a Madonna behind the glasses).
Earlier MM co-driver Francoise Conconi (Fiat France days and earlier).
Other Fiat France team co-driver (to J-C Andruet) Michel Petit ("Biche")....




#85 Thundersports

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 23:57

These drivers of course were forced to drive these cars................They had a choice.

#86 GeoffR

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:08

Co-driver Frabrizia Pons

Isn't she still competing??

What an amazing career she has had!!