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The Karthikeyan incidents and why didn't Jenson get any penalty ?


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#1 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:36

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?

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#2 Nobody

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:40

probably went down as a racing incident - JB was clumsy but not malicious

#3 fed up

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:40

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?


I'm afraid so :|

#4 exmayol

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:42

I guess JB punished himself already without ruining a race for NK. If JB caused NK an extra pit or something then a drive-through would likely have been warranted.

#5 Oho

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:42

....



Because Button made a mistake while racing for position whereas Vettel and Karthikeyan were not. Whether the FIA apportioned the blame correctly in the Vettel Karthikeyan incident is different matter.

#6 LoudHoward

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:47

They may have judged that Button got his penalty by borking his own car, I don't think NK had to make an extra stop, he had to come in for inters and made it back to the pits at normal HRT speed as far as I could tell haha.

#7 Andy35

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:48

I guess JB punished himself already without ruining a race for NK. If JB caused NK an extra pit or something then a drive-through would likely have been warranted.


Yes but is that the right way to look at it? Button made a far bigger mistake than NK on Seb but because it was Button that suffered then nothing was done.

The punishment seems to be not on the transgression but on what the result is afterwards, which is a strange way of looking at it.

In my view neither case deserved a penalty though.

Andy




#8 Nobody

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:50

The punishment seems to be not on the transgression but on what the result is afterwards, which is a strange way of looking at it.


too right, this happens a lot

#9 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:50

It is an interesting question (if I take my Mclaren hat off)

I'm in the diminishing camp that believes these things (Button, Vettel) are racing incidents. But if stewards punish 1, the other certainly appears much clearer.

The answer is F1 has never been managed in a fair way, FIA/Bernie's favourites and the top teams receive more cash, influence, and preferential treatment on and off track. If teams don't like it, take a hike...

Edited by Stormsky68, 27 March 2012 - 06:51.


#10 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:55

The incidents were simply very different. Button and NK were fighting for position. Vettel and NK, NK was getting lapped he was meant to stay out the way not come back onto the line.

No bias, no favouritism the incidents are not comparable

#11 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:59

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?

First explain how Narain's race was ruined. If you can't, then don't be surprised there's no penalty.

#12 mymemoryfails

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:59

I dont even remember seeing it as being investigated. Sure seems like double standards.

Perhaps they thought Narain wouldn't mind being hit. To be fair it did seem NK escaped reasonably OK. As others have said, it seems to be the consequences that matter, not the "crime". If NK had spun off as a result maybe something could/would have happened penalty wise.

Was he as high as sixth place ?

Also dont remember investigation of Grosjean Schumacher either.

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#13 Supersleeper

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:01

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?

Karthikeyan caused havoc throughout the race - the stewards got an opportunity to nail him on a particular incident and did so. Though I don't agree that the incident with Vettel in isolation was justification for the penalty.

#14 mymemoryfails

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:02

The incidents were simply very different. Button and NK were fighting for position. Vettel and NK, NK was getting lapped he was meant to stay out the way not come back onto the line.

No bias, no favouritism the incidents are not comparable


But surely you are not allowed to crash into someone in negligence and excuse yourself with "it was for position"?

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#15 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:04

The incidents were simply very different. Button and NK were fighting for position. Vettel and NK, NK was getting lapped he was meant to stay out the way not come back onto the line.

No bias, no favouritism the incidents are not comparable


Hmm can think of an example of a similar incident where that wasn't the case. Hamilton v Massa Monaco, both fighting for position, Hamilton judged to have rammed Massa. Not disimilar to Button on NK.

#16 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:06

First explain how Narain's race was ruined. If you can't, then don't be surprised there's no penalty.


narain was running 10th and after this incident he was running 18th .... so many cars overtook him intantly .... 10th position meant a lot for HRT .... even more than vettle's 6th

#17 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:07

narain was running 10th and after this incident he was running 18th .... so many cars overtook him intantly .... 10th position meant a lot for HRT .... even more than vettle's 6th

Narain was running 10th because half of the grid already pitted for inters while Narain was still on full wets. The same lap he pitted for inters and dropped back to last place.

Edited by Lights, 27 March 2012 - 07:11.


#18 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:08

and if narain hit button from behind like that , would narain also let off like button ?

#19 bourbon

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:16

Hmm can think of an example of a similar incident where that wasn't the case. Hamilton v Massa Monaco, both fighting for position, Hamilton judged to have rammed Massa. Not disimilar to Button on NK.


Yeah but Hamilton and Massa were REALLY fighting for position. The battle with HRT was more like one's cute little sister punching you in the thigh - that was never going to be any fight.

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#20 ImDDAA

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:21

Perhaps because the stewards have decided to be sensible this year? We'll have to wait and see.

Edit: actually I thought the Karthikeyan penalty may have been harsh, I think both cars did things wrong in the lead up to that incident.

I think we should keep some stewards locked in a room, away from the F1 - when an incident happens the footage is doctored before they're given it in which the car liveries are turned to a neutral white or grey as are the driver helmets, with sponsorship decals removed leaving the cars and drivers impossible to recognise. If I agree with their final decision we can throw them fish.

Edited by ImDDAA, 27 March 2012 - 07:32.


#21 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:22

Yeah but Hamilton and Massa were REALLY fighting for position. The battle with HRT was more like one's cute little sister punching you in the thigh - that was never going to be any fight.


You 'know' there is no difference, a rule is a rule.

Edited by Stormsky68, 27 March 2012 - 07:22.


#22 sofarapartguy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:31

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?


Because it is Jenson Button.

#23 Diablobb81

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:32

Either it's a new trend or the stewards simply didn't care this time.

Based on Silverstone last year, both RG and JB should have gotten a penalty.

#24 spacekid

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:34

Perhaps because the stewards have decided to be sensible this year? We'll have to wait and see.


:up: Thats what I'm hoping. It was tricky conditions and Button got it wrong. As with Grosjean hitting Schumi there shouldn't be a penalty for racing incidents like those, it sometimes happens.

As for the incident with Vettel, Kartikeyan isn't always the best at getting out of the way, hopefully he'll learn from this.

#25 cheapracer

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:40

I got to say based on previous average penalties that Button deserved a drive through level punishment (not that I would agree with it), it was a fairly clear ram, accidental as it was, and at the end of the day Button should have been more careful. Maybe they felt the slow lap and wing change was enough but that was his own self infliction and no punishment for putting Narain's race at risk, there's no way to know 10 laps later something wouldn't break and cause retirement due to the impact.

and if narain hit button from behind like that , would narain also let off like Button ?


Doubtful and Button would have been screaming "What is he DOING! He's got to get a penalty for that!" over the radio too.

#26 cheapracer

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:42

:up: Thats what I'm hoping. It was tricky conditions and Button got it wrong. As with Grosjean hitting Schumi there shouldn't be a penalty for racing incidents like those, it sometimes happens.


First lap shuffling and banging is different from clear track incidents.

As for the incident with Vettel, Kartikeyan isn't always the best at getting out of the way, hopefully he'll learn from this.


Did you read Kartikeyan's own version of the incident before you posted that?

#27 Zatoichi

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:54

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel...

Please stop the nonsense. There was a reason. Karthikeyan crashed into Vettel, while under blue flags, and ruined Vettel's race. There was enough room for Karthikeyan, Vettel didn't push him into the grass.

Back view:

Posted Image

Posted Image



Front view:

Posted Image



Karthikeyan moved right into Vettel as Vettel was already in front of him. There was enough room for Karthikeyan to just stay left and there was no reason for Vettel to anticipate that stupid move by Karthikeyan...

#28 dau

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:01

narain was running 10th and after this incident he was running 18th .... so many cars overtook him intantly .... 10th position meant a lot for HRT .... even more than vettle's 6th

He would've had to come in anyway, he was like 15s slower than the guys on inters. He had already dropped from P9 to P15 the lap before the incident. So he didn't really lose anything while Button ruined his race. Don't see a point in further punishing him by a drive-through, even though it was clearly his mistake. Do you guys really want to see even more penalties given out?

#29 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:04

Please stop the nonsense. There was a reason. Karthikeyan crashed into Vettel, while under blue flags, and ruined Vettel's race. There was enough room for Karthikeyan, Vettel didn't push him into the grass.

Back view:




Front view:




Karthikeyan moved right into Vettel as Vettel was already in front of him. There was enough room for Karthikeyan to just stay left and there was no reason for Vettel to anticipate that stupid move by Karthikeyan...



dont post these stupid pics which tell you nothing ... if u want to see who was at fault , see the videos of it .... narain was turning and this kid vettel came from behind very near to it ... since he was behind karthikeyan , he new where exactly was karthikeyan ... while overtaking he moved left inside karthikeyan .... u cannot expect karthikeyan to look into mirror when you are in a fast turn like that to know who is coming from behind ... 20 seconds penalty should ave be given to vttel

#30 undersquare

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:05

I didn't even notice Karthikeyan getting a penalty. Didn't expect one either since as far as I could see Sebi just pulled back in too soon.

Stewards have always been like that, being amateurs, they let status play much too big a part. Human nature, but wrong. The same driving by a low-status driver gets penalised when it doesn't for a top driver. Hamilton excepted obviously! Tho that is a status thing too in its own way.

Being a Steward in F1 is all about giving status to some FIA guys and a local guy, that's the problem. They should be the same every race, paid, trained, and subject to being voted out by the teams IMO.

But it's a little club thing, decided by the people in the club, and I bet Bernie loves the controversies too.

#31 hunnylander

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:08

No bias, no favouritism

With human beings involved?

Maybe at best!

But that's against the very nature of human beings.

#32 goingthedistance

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:09

I think Jenson definitely deserved a penalty, yet they happily hand one out to NK in a much more 50/50 situation. I'd be feeling very hard done by indeed if I was HRT.

#33 undersquare

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:12

Please stop the nonsense. There was a reason. Karthikeyan crashed into Vettel, while under blue flags, and ruined Vettel's race. There was enough room for Karthikeyan, Vettel didn't push him into the grass.

Back view:


Front view:


Karthikeyan moved right into Vettel as Vettel was already in front of him. There was enough room for Karthikeyan to just stay left and there was no reason for Vettel to anticipate that stupid move by Karthikeyan...

Look at the line rather than the kerb. Look at how Sebi moves so far left relative to the car in front of him. NK left enough room for both of them, but Sebi misjudged it, or was trying to send a message.

#34 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:15

How can these 2 incidents be so easily compared?

Button/Karthikeyan: Button's fault, Button has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on.
Vettel/Karthikeyan: 50/50, Vettel has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on. Karthikeyan gets a penalty.

What would be the point of giving Button a penalty? Can anyone explain this instead of simply saying he deserves one and that the stewards are incompetent.

#35 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:17

When I watched it live I immediately thought Seb cut in far too close

Watching the replay back IMO Seb placed his car in a position it was likely to get hit, and Karthikeyen duly went and hit it

I've seen nothing to suggest it wasn't a racing incident


#36 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:17

How can these 2 incidents be so easily compared?

Button/Karthikeyan: Button's fault, Button has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on.
Vettel/Karthikeyan: 50/50, Vettel has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on. Karthikeyan gets a penalty.

What would be the point of giving Button a penalty? Can anyone explain this instead of simply saying he deserves one and that the stewards are incompetent.


Principle? Wars have been fought for less

#37 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:18

How can these 2 incidents be so easily compared?

Button/Karthikeyan: Button's fault, Button has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on.
Vettel/Karthikeyan: 50/50, Vettel has damage and has to pit, Karthikeyan has no damage and drives on. Karthikeyan gets a penalty.

What would be the point of giving Button a penalty? Can anyone explain this instead of simply saying he deserves one and that the stewards are incompetent.



he rammed a car from behind which was avoidable ... so he should get a penalty ... simple as that ... now whether button damaged his front wing or not is a different question ...

#38 Bloggsworth

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:20

Narain Karthikeyan got penalty for no reason after the incident with vettel... yet jenson button escaped penalty despite ramming into karthikeyan's car from behind when narain was at 10th position and ruined narain's race ... is this because it was an HRT and no one gives a damn to them ... had it been karthikeyan hitting buttton from behind , would he also been let off like button ?



Do let it fester for the rest of the season, tell your friends how Button prevented Narain from winning his first GP, bang on about it endlessly to anyone stupid enoigh to listen. Karthikeyan lost perhaps a second of race time - If everyone who touched another car was penalised there would be half a dozen cars driving through the pits after every start. - Button is not the kind of driver who leans on other drivers, it was a rare misjudgement. Vettel, on the other hand, carved Karthikeyan up as far as I could see and NK should not have beeen penalized, but they are apples and oranges and can't be equated.

#39 80mf

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:21

anybody remember alonso clipping the back of hamilton and getting a penalty, lewis getting a pen in singapore for clipping massa, etc etc, im glad they are calming down on giving drive through for everything little incident, its close racing on the limit, every now and again people touch, harsh on karth but button should of got a pen too IMO....

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#40 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:28

Principle? Wars have been fought for less

Sure, lets just penalize any driver who makes a mistake. You spin? Penalty, there could've been a car in your way. Principle.

My point.. Karthikeyan didn't suffer from it, there might've as well been no car.

#41 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:29

anybody remember alonso clipping the back of hamilton and getting a penalty, lewis getting a pen in singapore for clipping massa, etc etc, im glad they are calming down on giving drive through for everything little incident, its close racing on the limit, every now and again people touch, harsh on karth but button should of got a pen too IMO....

I also remember Raikkonen retiring Sutil and not getting any penalty whatsoever because he 'lost' his car.

#42 Stormsky68

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:30

Sure, lets just penalize any driver who makes a mistake. You spin? Penalty, there could've been a car in your way. Principle.

My point.. Karthikeyan didn't suffer from it, there might've as well been no car.



No. Lets accept there are racing incidents, and only penalise drivers who are deliberatly obstructive or dangerous.

Right now we have neither, stewards hand out penalties to some and not to others for near identical offences, that is the source of my complaint

#43 dau

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:32

Look at the line rather than the kerb. Look at how Sebi moves so far left relative to the car in front of him. NK left enough room for both of them, but Sebi misjudged it, or was trying to send a message.

Vettel tries to get back on the racing line as quick as possible. He is not squeezing Karthikeyan off the track, there is enough room left for him to drive. It is also in Narain's responsibility to allow Vettel past, he was not racing him, but getting lapped. Instead, he drives his normal line, even keeping much more to the right than either Hamilton or Glock in front of him, as if Vettel isn't even there. If you're interested in this discussion, there's lots of pics and videos in the Vettel thread.

And yes, i can expect Karthikeyan to take a peek at his mirrors. I'm also pretty sure this would be well within his capabilities. He was also shown blue flags and he has team radio. I know many people don't think high of him, but denying his ability to keep track of his surroundings is a bit harsh.

#44 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:35

Vettel tries to get back on the racing line as quick as possible. He is not squeezing Karthikeyan off the track, there is enough room left for him to drive. It is also in Narain's responsibility to allow Vettel past, he was not racing him, but getting lapped. Instead, he drives his normal line, even keeping much more to the right than either Hamilton or Glock in front of him, as if Vettel isn't even there. If you're interested in this discussion, there's lots of pics and videos in the Vettel thread.

And yes, i can expect Karthikeyan to take a peek at his mirrors. I'm also pretty sure this would be well within his capabilities. He was also shown blue flags and he has team radio. I know many people don't think high of him, but denying his ability to keep track of his surroundings is a bit harsh.



but you cannot expect drivers to look at mirrors when you are in high speed corners ... because you are concentrating to pass that corner ... this is what happened here ... vettel came so fast from behind the corner and got into left side which was not needed ... we cannot expect karthikeyan to be looking into mirror that time

#45 McLaren

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:46

Do let it fester for the rest of the season, tell your friends how Button prevented Narain from winning his first GP, bang on about it endlessly to anyone stupid enoigh to listen. Karthikeyan lost perhaps a second of race time - If everyone who touched another car was penalised there would be half a dozen cars driving through the pits after every start. - Button is not the kind of driver who leans on other drivers, it was a rare misjudgement. Vettel, on the other hand, carved Karthikeyan up as far as I could see and NK should not have beeen penalized, but they are apples and oranges and can't be equated.


But the problem is, how do we know they have calmed down on handing penalties out?

Just because they didn't award a penalty here, doesn't mean they won't throughout the season. And that brings us back to if it wasn't a HRT, would Button have got a penalty?

I think the answer lies somewhere inbetween the fact that it was a HRT and the fact that he didn't get any visible damage from the accident. In which case, Button is lucky that he didn't get a penalty, as just a small amount of damage to NK would have surely resulted in a penalty.

#46 dau

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:48

but you cannot expect drivers to look at mirrors when you are in high speed corners ... because you are concentrating to pass that corner ... this is what happened here ... vettel came so fast from behind the corner and got into left side which was not needed ... we cannot expect karthikeyan to be looking into mirror that time

They didn't come together in the corner. Karthikeyan could've checked his mirrors on the straight before the double right, where he was also shown blue flags. His team should've kept him informed about the situation as well.

Edited by dau, 27 March 2012 - 08:48.


#47 mprtc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:51

They didn't come together in the corner. Karthikeyan could've checked his mirrors on the straight before the double right, where he was also shown blue flags. His team should've kept him informed about the situation as well.

yes they did ... see the bbc video ... vettel was very much behind karthikeyan and came quickly towards him at corner and moved left inwards karthikeyan

Edited by mprtc, 27 March 2012 - 08:53.


#48 cheapracer

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:53

Karthikeyan moved right into Vettel as Vettel was already in front of him.


Karthikeyan had to move right to get off a wet white line to save his own ass apparently or do you think driver's like to destroy their own races on purpose.

#49 dau

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:54

yes they did ... see the bbc video ... vettel was very much behind karthikeyan and came quickly towards him ate corner and moved left inwards karthikeyan

He did not move left. He drove in a straight line back onto the racing line, Karthikeyan moved to the right and drove into him. Watch the onboard.

#50 CoolBreeze

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:57

For some reason, it looked to me that Vettel chopped in front of NK.