200 replies to this topic

[Cargo]

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Edited by Cargo, 23 November 2018 - 13:16.

[Gary C]

'And it looks like the seat's made out of foam rubber and tank tape!'
that looks about right.

[Bill Harding]

http://www.thesun.co...ise-750000.html

My own knowledge of car values of F1 historics is "not high", but I reckon the £750k estimate is a bit low. It's a nice looking machine, and I particularly like the article's picture of the cockpit - the dashboard and steering wheel look positively agricultural. And it looks like the seat's made out of foam rubber and tank tape! Those were the days.

Will be very interesting to see how much it goes for - I reckon i twill clear a million easy...

Perhaps not....................... http://www.motorspor...-racing-update/

[f1steveuk]

Surprisingly accurate for The Sun!!!

chassis 2 was indeed Senna's weapon of choice for '84 (though he did use other chassis' that year including TG183B-5), but #2 was his favourite, I suspect nearer 2 million (if it sells!).

[Doug Nye]

Surprisingly accurate for The Sun!!!

chassis 2 was indeed Senna's weapon of choice for '84 (though he did use other chassis' that year including TG183B-5), but #2 was his favourite, I suspect nearer 2 million (if it sells!).

In this case the phrase that most springs to mind is "dream on"...UNLESS they find new money from someone starstruck by the movie (surely the motivation behind selling right now?)...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 27 March 2012 - 19:28.

[arttidesco]

Shame some prat saw fit to steal the chassis plate while the car was in the Donington Collection

[Bill Harding]

It is not the Nick Mason car, he still owns it and has done for many years
He removed it from Donington after parts were stolen off it, including the chassis plate............

[alansart]

It is not the Nick Mason car, he still owns it and has done for many years
He removed it from Donington after parts were stolen off it, including the chassis plate............

The Donington Toleman in 2007.

[Peter Morley]

It is not the Nick Mason car, he still owns it and has done for many years
He removed it from Donington after parts were stolen off it, including the chassis plate............

Presumably someone had whipped the Rover V8 out of that hillclimb special prior to displaying it at Donington?

[Emery0323]

Apart from the Ayrton Senna provenance, what's the valuation range for other Mid-80's 1.5Liter Turbo F1 cars?

I wonder how serviceable a 1.5Liter Turbo Hart would be if there were a vintage series for these cars.
That engine was not especially reliable in period, if I remember correctly.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well you're not going to be running the things in qualifying spec so I think they'd be well within their margins.

[f1steveuk]

So, reading between the lines, the car that has come up for auction isn't #2, it's another one with Nick Mason's stolen chassis plate on it??

In that case, I'll recalculate what I think a Senna fanatic is likely to pay, and suggest that maybe the car should be pulled from the auction unless there is a wad of evidence?

[D-Type]

Have I got this right?

The Toleman that Senna drove [most of the time] was TG184-02. The car was (and still is owned by Nick Mason). It was displayed at the Donington Collection. Whilst it was at Donington its chassis plate was nicked. But Nick Mason still has the car in his possession - with provenance but now without chassis plate.

In parallel with this, the Sun have published a story saying that Ayrton Senna's Toleman TG184-02 is coming up for sale.

So, if Nick Mason isn't selling his one, the car for sale must be another Toleman. Still probably driven by Senna, but not "his" car, ie not TG184-02. If it has a chassis plate saying TG184-02 either the chassis plate is a fake or it is the stolen plate resurfacing on the wrong car.

Edited by D-Type, 30 March 2012 - 16:22.

[Peter Morley]

So, reading between the lines, the car that has come up for auction isn't #2, it's another one with Nick Mason's stolen chassis plate on it??

In that case, I'll recalculate what I think a Senna fanatic is likely to pay, and suggest that maybe the car should be pulled from the auction unless there is a wad of evidence?

Not at all.

The car that is up for auction is the car that was driven by Stefan Johansson after Senna and given to Johansson at the end of the season.
Stefan sold the car to the current owners who have now decided to sell it - so it has only had 2 owners after Toleman.
It is definitely #2 and apart from the very simple ownership history the identity has also been confirmed by various Toleman team members.

The car that Nick Mason has was assembled from a pile of bits (some of which had been hillclimbed with a Rover V8) and given a new chassis plate with #2 on it for some reason.
That plate has apparently been stolen, but quite why anyone would want such a chassis plate is hard to imagine, they might as well have made one themselves.

I was offered the car when Stefan was selling it (apparently that was 16 years ago) and was very interested but for various reasons (not just the usual piggy bank issues!) didn't do so, but there was plenty of evidence as to its rock solid provenance (which has subsequently been further reinforced by those who were involved with it in period).

[Peter Morley]

Apart from the Ayrton Senna provenance, what's the valuation range for other Mid-80's 1.5Liter Turbo F1 cars?

I wonder how serviceable a 1.5Liter Turbo Hart would be if there were a vintage series for these cars.
That engine was not especially reliable in period, if I remember correctly.

Someone raced a RAM with Hart turbo engine in it in EuroBOSS races and the only person helping him run the car was his girlfriend.
So they don't have to be that difficult to run and as has been said if you reduce the boost they are going to last a lot longer than in period.

Also fitting a modern ECU makes them start and run a lot easier.
One of the biggest problems with running cars from that period is finding a computer that is slow enough and has the right interface to talk to the old ECU, the computer is a lot harder to maintain than the engine!
Apparently Renault have one period laptop that is working, and has the original software on it, that is very carefully taken wherever a car is being run - fitting a modern ECU is a much cheaper and more reliable solution (and so much smaller it doesn't change any visual aspect).

[ensign14]

So, if Nick Mason isn't selling his one, the car for sale must be another Tolemen. Still probably driven by Senna, but not "his" car, ie not TG184-02. If it has a chassis plate saying TG184-02 either the chassis plate is a fake or it is the stolen plate resurfacing on the wrong car.

Maybe it's a very full restoration around one original part?

[Peter Morley]

Maybe it's a very full restoration around one original part?

As I just said, the car that is being auctioned is how Toleman built and sold it, with the original #2 chassis plate that it has had all of its life, and as a complete genuine car did not need a full restoration .

The Mason car was definitely a full restoration, from a collection of parts, that even needed a new chassis plate.

[Mallory Dan]

Was the Pete Hammond 'Lolaman' that raced in UK Libre around 1985-86 based on a TG184, I think that had a Rover-esque engine?

[f1steveuk]

Thank you Peter a very concise and informative response.

So I'm going to stick with 1.5 to 2 million, because any Senna fanatic will know it's the car the splashed around Monaco. It onlt needs three people with more money than sense!!!

Although deep down, I suspect Doug is right!!

[Peter Morley]

Thank you Peter a very concise and informative response.

So I'm going to stick with 1.5 to 2 million, because any Senna fanatic will know it's the car the splashed around Monaco. It onlt needs three people with more money than sense!!!

Although deep down, I suspect Doug is right!!

There's a lot of less interesting things you can spend that kind of money on (or indeed a whole lot more) if you have it (which turns out to be far more difficult than I thought when I was younger)!
You can't buy a painting that stands out in people's memory for that sort of money and the cost of producing a painting is considerably lower.
There are a lot of cars that have no real historical significance that make far more and there are a bunch of new road cars that sell for similar amounts (and instantly lose a huge chunk), I agree that something that made such an impression should fetch a decent amount, only problem is single seaters don't usually do well at auction.

It is definitely one of the cars that really stands out in F1 history, I remember sitting on the edge of my seat watching the race.
I'm also pretty sure it crossed the line first, Prost having stopped on that lap and let Senna through (not something he'd repeat often in the future!), but red flag rules meant the result was based on the previous time they had crossed the line which left a lot of people disappointed.

As for Doug's response I'm sure there is a connection with the interest in the film, in the same way as Bonhams offering a large bunch of Lotus's to 'celebrate' the Lotus 50th anniversary!

[Tim Murray]

I'm also pretty sure it crossed the line first, Prost having stopped on that lap and let Senna through (not something he'd repeat often in the future!), but red flag rules meant the result was based on the previous time they had crossed the line which left a lot of people disappointed.

According to Autosport the race was red-flagged as Prost was completing his 32nd lap:

' ... and Prost, a winner after all, stopped immediately at the start-finish line. A couple of seconds later Ayrton Senna flashed past to start another lap, but it was all over.'

The race results were indeed based on the positions at the end of lap 31.

[LittleChris]

Not sure if the current red flag rules were in force at the time of the 1984 Monaco GP but they are noted below:

A red flag indicates that the race, practice session, or qualifying session has been suspended. All marshal stations will signal this.
Drivers may not leave the pits.
All drivers on the track must proceed cautiously to the red flag line and stop.
There they will be reordered in their correct racing order. Sessions may be resumed or abandoned as the race director indicates. Flashing red lights are now used in addition to the flags. If the safety car is deployed, the racing cars should follow it and provisions allow for the safety car to divert the field into the pit-lane and wait there. Other than that, drivers who enter the pits will be given a drive-through.

If the rule highlighted was in force, then Prost having seen Ickx holding out the red flag acted correctly in stopping and not crossing the S/F line, whereas Senna didn't

[ensign14]

How many F1 cars that Senna drove are available to the general public? I assume his McLaren ones are all held by Ron...

[kayemod]

How many F1 cars that Senna drove are available to the general public? I assume his McLaren ones are all held by Ron...

The Mercedes 190 2.3-16 he beat all comer with, typically by barging Prost off the track, is part of the MB factory collection.

[Peter Morley]

How many F1 cars that Senna drove are available to the general public? I assume his McLaren ones are all held by Ron...

Somewhere I've got a list of every chassis he drove and it is a surprisingly long list - he drove something like 30 McLarens!

Some of the McLarens have escaped - notably in the set that Aaron Hsu bought, a couple of which have been sold on, the MP4/4 hangs on the wall of Mr Hsu's New York home!
A friend of a friend who has one was offered an incredible amount of money for it, but he could easily afford to turn it down.

He drove a few Tolemans and they are all in private hands, as are most of the Lotus's - Clive Chapman might have inherited a couple but the rest were sold off and do change hands occasionally.

Honda and Renault will have a couple in their collections which clearly won't be available (unless they go bust!).

[Peter Morley]

The Mercedes 190 2.3-16 he beat all comer with, typically by barging Prost off the track, is part of the MB factory collection.

Do Joest still have the Porsche 956 that he drove?

[simonlewisbooks]

Was the Pete Hammond 'Lolaman' that raced in UK Libre around 1985-86 based on a TG184, I think that had a Rover-esque engine?

I think this was entered for the libre race at the first Birmingham Superprix ? Ironically that was one of the best Libre fields ever amassed and they never got to race due to the weather and delays

[mfd]

Do Joest still have the Porsche 956 that he drove?

It appears not http://www.flickr.co...ash/6257674635/

If this really is #104 the owner has a car with 57 race history & 9 wins. More famous liveries? Marlboro, Spirit of America, Warsteiner etc.etc.

[Bill Harding]

The press release from Nick paints a slightly different picture from some of the posts.
He owned the car since 1988 and it had a chassis plate + the body panels are marked 02.......
The history appears to be Toleman / Hammond / Mason which is pretty straightforward.
I am not convinced that is as simple as the auction house would have us believe.

The car has formed part of Nick Mason’s collection since 1988 and has been on long term loan to the museum, following a complete restoration by Nick’s company Ten Tenths Ltd, since 2003.

Nick is probably the nation’s most well respected and generous historic vehicle collector and competitor and feels ‘disappointed’ that anyone would want to remove part of a car’s history in this way.

Chassis number TG184-02 was the car that Ayrton Senna finished second to Alain Prost at the Monaco Grand Prix in 1984 and was purchased by Nick as a restoration project.

In 1985 the monocoque chassis was sold to Peter Hammond, complete with the chassis plate attached, direct from the Toleman factory. Importantly, this chassis retained and still retains certain key features peculiar to the Monaco car. He built up a Formula Libre car from it with a Rover V8 engine as reported in the 21st August 1986 edition of Autosport and its first outing was at the Birmingham Superprix in 1986 in a support race. Unfortunately it only managed a practice session as the race itself was cancelled due to the inclement weather.

It was in this form that Nick acquired the car and the restoration commenced to return the car to its original specification complete with a 1.5 Hart Turbo engine and in the correct Candy and Segafredo livery.

Since its restoration there have been other claims to chassis number TG184-02 since Stefan Johansson was presented with a car bearing this number at the end of his time at Toleman. Indeed Stefan did race a Toleman chassis number TG184-02 at the end of the 1984 season at the Italian an Portuguese Grands Prix where he finished 4th and 11th respectively. However it is believed that two cars bore this number during the season as this was in the period of the exceedingly tiresome customs carnets that teams had to complete when travelling abroad and, when substituting an updated or damaged chassis during the season, it was a lot more expedient to continue to employ the original chassis number and save a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

Luckily photographs exist of the car during the restoration showing the chassis plate in place and additionally ‘184-02’ is stencilled from original inside the body panels.

With a certain amount of “Senna Fever” abroad at present it is thought that someone has purloined it as a souvenir rather than any more sinister reason. It would be appreciated if it could be returned to Ten Tenths Ltd., 35 Britannia Row, London, N1 8QH.

[Thundersports]

I'm now confused after this post to which one is the real car! I know who has the car Peter is refering to and has had it for a while too.

[timbo]

Not at all.

The car that is up for auction is the car that was driven by Stefan Johansson after Senna and given to Johansson at the end of the season.
Stefan sold the car to the current owners who have now decided to sell it - so it has only had 2 owners after Toleman.
It is definitely #2 and apart from the very simple ownership history the identity has also been confirmed by various Toleman team members.

The car that Nick Mason has was assembled from a pile of bits (some of which had been hillclimbed with a Rover V8) and given a new chassis plate with #2 on it for some reason.
That plate has apparently been stolen, but quite why anyone would want such a chassis plate is hard to imagine, they might as well have made one themselves.

If the Nick Mason car was assembled from a pile of bits and given an incorrect chassis plate, perhaps nicking the plate off the car was the correct thing to do. Who Knows.

[Lee Nicolle]

It seems that both cars are legitimate, but how do they both have the same chassis number. My memory says that Johansen and Senna raced in the same team in 84 so both should have different chasssis numbers.Customs excuses in this case seem bogus as Customs are not going to like 2 cars with the same number.
Also if Stefans car was presented to him did Senna even actually race it? And that was probably NOT the car that was in the contreversial finish at Monaco.

[roblegin]

I think this was entered for the libre race at the first Birmingham Superprix ? Ironically that was one of the best Libre fields ever amassed and they never got to race due to the weather and delays

The Toleman 'Rover' was definately raced at a Silverstone Libre race in May 1987. From memory it finished 5th or 6th, behind a few Reynard / Lola F3000's and a Chevron B42(?) driven by Bob Juggins if my hazy memory serves me correctly.

[Peter Morley]

The press release from Nick paints a slightly different picture from some of the posts.
He owned the car since 1988 and it had a chassis plate + the body panels are marked 02.......
The history appears to be Toleman / Hammond / Mason which is pretty straightforward.
I am not convinced that is as simple as the auction house would have us believe.

That story is simply not supported by fact, in much the same way as with the "US GP winning" Tyrrell...

Their 'proof' seems to be based on the collector being 'well respected', the ex-Formula 1 driver who owned the car is certainly also well respected as are the Toleman team members who inspected both cars.

Edited by Peter Morley, 29 March 2012 - 09:19.

[f1steveuk]

So, it stands a fair chance of being the Monaco tub (as it has "features" unique to that tub)

Re-adjusts auction value, I'd be surprised if it got over £500,000, assuming those bidding have seen what we have seen!

[Peter Morley]

It seems that both cars are legitimate, but how do they both have the same chassis number. My memory says that Johansen and Senna raced in the same team in 84 so both should have different chasssis numbers.Customs excuses in this case seem bogus as Customs are not going to like 2 cars with the same number.
Also if Stefans car was presented to him did Senna even actually race it? And that was probably NOT the car that was in the contreversial finish at Monaco.

By the time Johanson arrived Senna had moved onto chassis 5 (when he was allowed to race - he was suspended for 1 race for signing with Lotus!) and Johanson tended to drive 2 (he also drove 3 in one of the races they mention).

As you say the carnet story doesn't add up - of course such things happened at that time but in this case there was no need for such trickery.

[RTH]

The Toleman 'Rover' was definately raced at a Silverstone Libre race in May 1987. From memory it finished 5th or 6th, behind a few Reynard / Lola F3000's and a Chevron B42(?) driven by Bob Juggins if my hazy memory serves me correctly.

I saw it test at Snetterton at that time too, whether it had problems it was pretty slow.

[simonlewisbooks]

Back in 1991 at the Donington 3-litre F1 anniversary event an Irish chap had a large van load of Toleman bits which he was flogging off. He said he's bought up the surplus old components including several tubs which he was in the process of building up to sell on. Don't recall his name, don't recall seeing him around after that event, but he appeared to work for Benetton, as it then was. Does this help?

[Pullman99]

Also at Donington - at The VSCC "See Red" event on 2nd October 2010 - the car was (IIRC) described in the information accompanying it as the Toleman chassis that was Senna's 2nd place Monaco car - and therefore the car that is currently for sale ra. From information given in later contributions to this thread - especially by backfire - this is presumably TG184-01 now owned by Alastair Davidson. It was demonstrated on the Saturday but not the Sunday (which was very wet).

Edited by Pullman99, 01 April 2012 - 13:46.

[ianselva]

Back in 1991 at the Donington 3-litre F1 anniversary event an Irish chap had a large van load of Toleman bits which he was flogging off. He said he's bought up the surplus old components including several tubs which he was in the process of building up to sell on. Don't recall his name, don't recall seeing him around after that event, but he appeared to work for Benetton, as it then was. Does this help?

That sounds like Bill Miller who worked at Tolemans, then Benetton ,then Renault , as the team ownership changed . unfortunately he died by his own hand a few years ago.

[Bill Harding]

Contrary to an earlier post, I gather that when Pete Hammond bought the Nick Mason car in 1986 it had the chassis no; attached to the tub. The underneath of the body panels were stencilled 02 and the car was invoiced by Toleman as TG184-02.
He sold enough spares with the car, including another tub to Mason that were built up into another (unumbered) car. I recall that it was at an H&H auction 13 or 14 years ago. Interestingly the Mason car seems to have a lower rollbar height, which matches the Monaco photos. The "auction car" has a higher rollbar as raced later in the 1984 season.
When the Mason car was sold by Toleman in 1986 and again by Hammond in 1988 it was always referred to as 184-02, at that time there was no extra value in a particular identity it was simply a tired old racing car!
It is more than likely that Senna drove both cars but in which races may remain a mystery.
The fact that the chassis plate and steering wheel were recently stolen from the Nick Mason car only adds to the mystery....
The car currently for sale has failed to sell before (Coys 2000), possibly because the exact race history is not certain??

[Peter Morley]

The roll over bar could be pretty conclusive...
The people who worked on the car confirm, as was reported in the press at the time, that after Monaco Senna wanted a different driving position requiring a taller roll over bar on 02.
Cecotto's chassis 03 did not need the extension, as can be seen in period photos.

When Johanson bought 02 (again the documents confirm that) he was certainly aware of Senna's importance, since by 86 he had won several GPs and was on his way to winning the Championship in 88.

Incidentally if the chassis plate had been fitted the way that Toleman did then it would have been very difficult to remove it without raising attention.

I have seen a pretty conclusive list of the chassis histories but Í'm only reporting first hand information so will leave that to others, especially as I'm off to Spain for a week and have promised to avoid computers then (will try to slip the iPad in on the off chance I can find some wifi though!).

[backfire]

Right, I hope I can clarify this chassis number thing for once and all. I have done an in depth research into the histories of these cars (I had minor connections with Toleman in '84), Peter Morley has got his facts pretty spot on, and Bill Harding has identified one of the killer pieces of evidence. After Monaco, Senna requested modifications to the driving position and the roll hoop had a welded extension added (this was reported in the motoring press in their Canada GP reports and remembered by senior Toleman personnel I spoke to just over a year ago). Chassis 01 (Senna spare car) and 02 (Senna race car) were thus modified, the other chassis 03 (Cecotto) was not. The two later chassis' were 04 (written off by Cecotto on it's first outing at Brands) and 05 (Senna race car after Johansson took over 02) - 05 seems to have the raised roll bar also from pictures. I also have pictures I took from 03's last race in Dallas showing it still had the standard roll hoop.
Of the five TG184 chassis built, this where they are now; TG184-01 (in UK with Alastair Davidson and running), TG184-02 (in UK with the Shottle Syndicate and in Silverstone Auction), TG184-03 (in UK with Nick Mason/Ten Tenths), TG184-04 (destroyed) & TG184-05 (believed to be in South America).
It is obvious to me that someone decided to renumber 03 as 02 to increase it's value (despite what Bill Harding thinks, Senna was well on his way to World Champion by the time Peter Hammond sold the cars and "ex World Champion" adds a lot to values.) I inspected the real 02 when it returned from Sweden in 1994 and have seen the paperwork, so was surprised to see the Mason car in the Donington Collection masquerading as 02, so I took a photograph of the (now "missing") chassis plate - this was about six years ago. Compared to the chassis plates in other Tolemans, this plate not only looked freshly minted, but used the wrong letter style and punctuation, the fixing was also different. I was not able to see, but it is possible that the Mason car has spare body panels from the real 02, as that car does not have spares (hence the stencilled numbers that Toleman did use). Incidentally, to clarify one of Peter Morleys points, the real chassis plate was removed by Toleman, and one of their ex mechanics still has it.
I could add a lot more to this, but for the time being, that's enough.
As to the value of the ex Senna Monaco car in the auction, I don't know! over to you chaps.

[jcbc3]

Thanks for this clarification.

I am 'just' missing your photograph of the Mason chassis plate and another 'real' Toleman plate for comparison.

[backfire]

Here are three plates; top Genuine TG184-02, middle Mason TG184 & bottom TG185-05 (TG184-03 matches the top & bottom plates).

Thanks for this clarification.

I am 'just' missing your photograph of the Mason chassis plate and another 'real' Toleman plate for comparison.

[jcbc3]

[f1steveuk]

That clarifies, and confirms my thinking, and reduces my valuation further.

I am not saying this is a deliberate ploy, but it does make one wonder why someone doesn't fully research these things beforehand.

Many thanks to both Peter and "Backfire", you just have to love when history comes to life like that.

[backfire]

I don't think the owners of the "Auction" car ever doubted their history, but I know that the other car was a concern that they tried to sort out amicably - but all contact was ignored. Perhaps they should have taken sterner measures. I quite agree that some people should look at their own car's history before trying to rubbish a car with excellent credentials. The Silverstone Auction should be able to go ahead with the only issue being - what will somebody pay for the first F1 car that showcased the greatest motor sport talent in recent history?

[Nikos Spagnol]

Somewhere I've got a list of every chassis he drove and it is a surprisingly long list - he drove something like 30 McLarens!

Indeed. McLaren used to bring as much as 5 chassis to Monaco, for instance, plus the spare parts. In those days, there was no limit over the number of different chassis a team could use, IIRC.

On the other hand, smaller teams sometimes lacked even a single spare car, so their drivers had to sit out of the race if they crashed on the first start.

[Allen Brown]

What an interesting thread!

Before commenting, I should declare an interest. Some time late last year, Nick Mason, through Bill Harding, commissioned me to write dossiers on a couple of his cars, including the TG184. He did not ask me to prove that it is one thing or another; just to get to the bottom of this as objectively as I can and to tell him what he does have. I haven't been able to start yet because of my dossier queue so I don't at this point have any new knowledge to impart.

Does anyone else here have an interest in this that they'd like to declare?

May I ask 'backfire' about his chassis number photographs? I did not see the plate on the Donington Museum car and now, of course, I do not have that option so his picture of it is very helpful. The photograph above it is captioned "Genuine TG184-02". Where is that photograph from? Was it taken in 1984 or is it a picture of the plate on the auction car?