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Senna's Toleman for sale ...


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#51 backfire

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:47

Allen,
As well as several ex Toleman staff, I know a couple of the owners of the auction car (it's owned by a four person enthusiast syndicate), incidentally I also know Nick Mason. The "genuine" chassis plate was photographed several years ago (although I saw it the day after it was re-imported from Stefan's garage in Sweden in 1994). It's a real shame the other 02 plate went missing, as the photo I have is a bit of a quick snap. I don't want to mud sling on a forum, plus the fact is I don't have total evidence, but I really feel that Nick may have been stitched up. I also know that the syndicate, worried about challenges to their car, got two senior ex Toleman personnel (one a very well known name) to thoroughly inspect their car and, at the request of the Toleman guys, they called in at the Donington Collection to look at the other car. I have not seen their written report, but I was told that they fully endorsed the syndicate car, and declared the Donington car definitely not an ex Senna car (I also understand the chassis plate was still on the car). As I said in an earlier post, the roll bar business is a big clue, and with Nick's car having the unmodified lower set up, I think it points to it being 03. If you can't find photographic reference to 03, I could scan my transparency of it from Dallas (which I think was it's last race) and post it. By pure coincidence (really!), I may be seeing another old Toleman friend, if I do I will ask him for any snippets that may be useful and report here.

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#52 Allen Brown

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 13:44

It would be very useful to see their report to understand why they came to their conclusion. I am notorious for not taking anyone's opinion on anything without asking 'and why do you believe that?'. :)

And on that very theme - are you identifying Mason's car as 03 on the basis of the other four cars being known or on something more specific?

I have now seen the invoice from when Nick Mason bought his car in 1988 and it clearly says TG184-02. And remember that this is back in May 1988, before Senna even won his first title. Actually, I see a reference to Nick Mason's car as being ex-Senna/ex-Johanssson that goes even further back - Autosport 21 Aug 1986 when Hammond had it. So the belief that it had Senna history goes a long way back. We'll need solid physical evidence to get to the bottom of this so that report could be key.

#53 kayemod

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 13:51

Many thanks to both Peter and "Backfire", you just have to love when history comes to life like that.


I'm just an innocent bystander in all this, but it's one of the most fascinating threads we've had in years.


#54 backfire

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:00

It would be very useful to see their report to understand why they came to their conclusion. I am notorious for not taking anyone's opinion on anything without asking 'and why do you believe that?'. :)

And on that very theme - are you identifying Mason's car as 03 on the basis of the other four cars being known or on something more specific?

I have now seen the invoice from when Nick Mason bought his car in 1988 and it clearly says TG184-02. And remember that this is back in May 1988, before Senna even won his first title. Actually, I see a reference to Nick Mason's car as being ex-Senna/ex-Johanssson that goes even further back - Autosport 21 Aug 1986 when Hammond had it. So the belief that it had Senna history goes a long way back. We'll need solid physical evidence to get to the bottom of this so that report could be key.

Allen,
I base that on 1, yes as we can place all the other cars but 03 (that has never reappeared anywhere else to my knowledge) and 2, all the Senna cars (01,02 & 05) have the roll hoop mod (after Monaco), 03 didn't. As I said, I have not seen the report myself, but I understand it was based on many factors, including the roll hoop. You have to be very suspicious of that invoice when a bit of paper flies in the face of hard evidence. I am sorry, but the claim that it didn't matter if it was ex Senna or not in 1988 does not wash, by 1988 Senna was a superstar and Cecotto forgotten. Remember the subject of this post is about the car in the auction, and there is not a shred of physical evidence that is not the Senna/Monaco car ( and you would have to accuse half the Toleman hierarchy, including Stefan Johannson and Alex Hawkridge of lying), I too am sceptical of opinion without proof. Good luck with your research, I will tell you what I can, but I am only an interested bystander.

ps to kayemod - glad you are enjoying this, just wait till we get onto the true identity of the ex Perry McCarthy Monaco Andrea Moda!



#55 ensign14

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 17:02

ps to kayemod - glad you are enjoying this, just wait till we get onto the true identity of the ex Perry McCarthy Monaco Andrea Moda!

That'll be the one with square wheels and no engine.

#56 backfire

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 17:17

That'll be the one with square wheels and no engine.



No that's the ex Keith Moon car with...............I'm losing the will.

#57 Thundersport

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 20:34

Having been confused before and reading through this I have to say backfires posts if substantiated do stack up.

#58 Peter Morley

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 16:02

Here are three plates; top Genuine TG184-02, middle Mason TG184 & bottom TG185-05 (TG184-03 matches the top & bottom plates).


I'm back and just catching up on everything.
I'm glad the chassis plate pictures confirm what I've said - quite how someone could copy a chassis plate that badly is pretty surprising, surely any engraver would have lower case as well as uppercase letters.

I can understand that Allen isn't happy that the Mason car is definitely 03 (even if they had definitive proof that it was they are clearly not going to share it since that would not suit...), but as you say the issue in question is the auction car which has always been 02.
It is upto Mason's team to establish the actual identity of their car, if they are bothered about such issues, and 03 is a good start (repaired 04 being another albeit unlikely possibility?).



#59 backfire

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 17:48

Peter,
Welcome back. As often in these things, there has to be a judgement partially based on circumstantial evidence, and that all seems to point to "that" car being 03. I can find no pics of the damaged 04, but would imagine that, with the extent of Cecotto's injuries, the tub, being carbon fibre, would be scrap. Another way of looking at it, if it is not the basis of the Mason car, where is 03?
I was with the real 02 a couple of days ago, when a Brazilian TV crew were filming a piece for Brazil's biggest channel. I really went along to meet up with former Toleman commercial chief, Chris Witty whom I'd not seen for years. Chris was full of fascinating Senna tales, and also was totally convinced of the authenticity of the auction car. It's just amazing, that with the enormous dossier of provenance they have for the auction TG184-02, anybody would doubt it - there have been a lot of important cars sold with much more flimsy provenance.

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#60 SPBHM

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 18:26

there is a video here
http://sportv.globo....a-de-senna.html

you can even see the chassis plate at 1:09

#61 Peter Morley

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:49

Peter,
Welcome back. As often in these things, there has to be a judgement partially based on circumstantial evidence, and that all seems to point to "that" car being 03. I can find no pics of the damaged 04, but would imagine that, with the extent of Cecotto's injuries, the tub, being carbon fibre, would be scrap. Another way of looking at it, if it is not the basis of the Mason car, where is 03?
I was with the real 02 a couple of days ago, when a Brazilian TV crew were filming a piece for Brazil's biggest channel. I really went along to meet up with former Toleman commercial chief, Chris Witty whom I'd not seen for years. Chris was full of fascinating Senna tales, and also was totally convinced of the authenticity of the auction car. It's just amazing, that with the enormous dossier of provenance they have for the auction TG184-02, anybody would doubt it - there have been a lot of important cars sold with much more flimsy provenance.


Just looked at Roger's Brazilian tv appearence which reminded me that when testing the F3000 in France in 1986 (not with Roger's team, I was with Mario Hytten's team then) we had a discussion with the 'natives' about the merits of Senna vs Prost, of course the French were very patriotic but what they didn't realise was that Mario's brother Simon was doing Ayrton's graphics in those days which meant that we knew rather more about the subject than they did!

However the most interesting part of the discussion, albeit totally unrelated to this issue, was about other young upcoming French drivers particularly the son of a film star who seemingly had a different rev-limit to the other Winfield drivers - no idea why I'm mentioning this apart from noting that by 1986 people who were involved had already spotted the forthcoming rivalry.

#62 JockinSA

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:14


Having read this series of comments on this car, I have to just shake my head and say to myself that yet again this just proves to me that anything that wretched man, Ted Toleman, touched turns into something that affects people financially. I would not be at all surprised to find that his name was not at the bottom of the invoices or any other paperwork, as in my experience with him, and the rest of the people he took to the cleaners here in South Africa with his attempt to create a touring car team, he was very good at getting others to unwittingly do his dirty work. My commiserations to people who now are possibly pulling their hair out over this saga, as you won't get any response from him to try and sort out this enigma.

#63 backfire

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:31

Having read this series of comments on this car, I have to just shake my head and say to myself that yet again this just proves to me that anything that wretched man, Ted Toleman, touched turns into something that affects people financially. I would not be at all surprised to find that his name was not at the bottom of the invoices or any other paperwork, as in my experience with him, and the rest of the people he took to the cleaners here in South Africa with his attempt to create a touring car team, he was very good at getting others to unwittingly do his dirty work. My commiserations to people who now are possibly pulling their hair out over this saga, as you won't get any response from him to try and sort out this enigma.


From what I have heard, I understand where you are coming from, but I can verify that non of the provenance of the the auction car comes from him. What makes this car so special is that it went directly to Johannson at the end of the "84 season, as part of his contract, and then straight to the present owners without any grey areas in it's history.


#64 doc knutsen

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:06

I'm just an innocent bystander in all this, but it's one of the most fascinating threads we've had in years.


Amen to that, but I wonder if anybody has heard the story told to me by Roger Cowman, back when my team was doing the BOSS series, and the Toleman (er, one of them...) was in his possession. Apparently, when they collected the car, they decided to see whether the engine
would turn...so they removed the four plugs from between the camshafts of the Hart motor, and hooked it up to a battery. And to their astonishment, not only did it turn on its starter, but it coughed and spluttered and tried to fire...despite the four spark plugs lying on the workbench! At this point, one feller crossed himelf and wanted nothing more to do with proceedings, mumbling that it would be the spirit of Senna teaching them a lesson. Eventually, however, somebody realised that the 415T had twin plugs per cylinder, the other set being almost hidden by the manifolds, and these were responsible for the spluttering engine - no intervention from the Other Side after all...


#65 David McKinney

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:13

:lol: :lol: :lol:

#66 Pullman99

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:23

Amen to that, but I wonder if anybody has heard the story told to me by Roger Cowman...., they decided to see whether the engine would turn...so they removed the four plugs from between the camshafts of the Hart motor, and hooked it up to a battery. And to their astonishment, not only did it turn on its starter, but it coughed and spluttered and tried to fire...despite the four spark plugs lying on the workbench!


What a great story. (OT) On a par with the March "empty" bag tank vacuum cleaner incident (from "Four Guys and a Telephone", I think). :rotfl:

Edited by Pullman99, 08 April 2012 - 12:23.


#67 eldougo

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:16

SPBHM........ suppiled video sure shows the top chassis plate shown in" backfire" photos.

#68 PhantomRaspberryBlower

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 22:30

Here's Hammond's car at Brands Hatch (7th June 87, I think). The track commentator mentioned it was fitted with a Rover engine - anybody got any more info on precisely what type? The programme doesn't list the cc next to the entry... Did the car have some Lola parts fitted - as per one or two references earlier in the thread? Just curious, of course. I remember it seemed rather slow compared to some of the other cars in the race...

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#69 Thundersport

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 23:10

Looking at the pic and hazarding a guess I would say that has a Lola T85/50 rear end looking at the rear wing obviously the the wheel base is different to accomadate a V8.

Edited by Thundersport, 10 April 2012 - 23:10.


#70 mikeC

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:01

SPBHM........ suppiled video sure shows the top chassis plate shown in" backfire" photos.


But don't forget according to backfire's evidence, the 'real' 02 plate was removed by Toleman before sale anyway...

#71 backfire

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:36

But don't forget according to backfire's evidence, the 'real' 02 plate was removed by Toleman before sale anyway...


That's not what I said or meant at all. I just said it was possible that, as the plate had been removed from Hammonds TG183 tub, it may have been policy to remove the plate from TG184-03 (the plate is still with an ex Toleman mechanic). Remember this was a pile of bits that were made into a car by an amateur builder - it would not have looked good if there had been a fatal accident and Toleman Motorsport was on the chassis plate. This is a mile away from Johansson being given his complete car (it was part of his contract - verified in writing by Stefan and Alex Hawkridge) as a "museum piece". From what I can ascertain, complete cars kept their plates when disposed of by the team.
On another note, Allen Brown, in an earlier post refers to an Autosport piece on the Peter Hammond Libre car be ex Senna/ Johansson, this is not totally correct. The wording says, "The chassis, as raced by Ayrton Senna and Stefan Johansson....." the word "as" says it all.
I don't know if it's the celebrity status of one of the owners, or the desperate desire to find a conspiracy theory, no matter how unlikely - but I wish some people would just take a balanced look at the evidence.

#72 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 14:43

Here's Hammond's car at Brands Hatch (7th June 87, I think). The track commentator mentioned it was fitted with a Rover engine - anybody got any more info on precisely what type?


It was a V8 as far as I recall. I think a small story with photo appeared in AUTOSPORT prior to the 86 Birmingham event.
I think this was long before KV6s were available and no-one had considered putting an 827 (Honda) V6 in a single seater at the time.

#73 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 16:01

If I can add a bit of a red herring please?
Back in the mid nineties, I was told that a motorsport guy had bought the village garage in a village about ten miles way from me here in the Lakes. The story was that he used to work for a famous person who owned a collection of racing cars. There was supposed an ex Senna Toleman in the back of this garage that he was going to completely restore for the owner. I did call round but he was not in and I left an invite to come to local club night with his wife. he never replied or attended. There was certainly a F1 car profile under a sheet in the garage. I did hear he was not to keen on people calling in to "see" the car. I seem to think his name was MacDonald or similar. Not sure if he is still around. The odd thing was that we expected him to be doing some restorations or classic car work but he just seemed to do the local routine servicing.

#74 timf5000

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 16:18

It was a V8 as far as I recall. I think a small story with photo appeared in AUTOSPORT prior to the 86 Birmingham event.
I think this was long before KV6s were available and no-one had considered putting an 827 (Honda) V6 in a single seater at the time.


Yes, it was definitely a Rover V8 3.5 litres! Peter ran the car in Libre races a couple of times and was entered for the abortive Birmingham Super Prix in 1986.

#75 Pullman99

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 17:10

Back in the mid nineties, I was told that a motorsport guy had bought the village garage in a village about ten miles way from me here in the Lakes. The story was that he used to work for a famous person who owned a collection of racing cars.


Didn't the small garage just down from the railway station at Foxfield (since closed, I think) do some preparation / restoration of single-seaters?

#76 mikeC

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 17:34

Right, I hope I can clarify this chassis number thing for once and all... ... Incidentally, to clarify one of Peter Morleys points, the real chassis plate was removed by Toleman, and one of their ex mechanics still has it.


I interpreted this as referring to 02; are you saying that it was the 03 plate that was removed?

#77 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 18:06

Didn't the small garage just down from the railway station at Foxfield (since closed, I think) do some preparation / restoration of single-seaters?


No, the wrong end of the county, right at the north of the National Park!

#78 Bill Harding

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 21:39

I would like to welcome our new member "Backfire" and say how much I enjoy his contributions.
He has posted "I wish some people would take a balanced look at the evidence"
From where I am looking, I see one of the Worlds great collectors and enthusiasts who has owned his car since 1988 and who has commissioned Allen Brown to research it's provenance, not to prove a particular identity and long before the other car has come up for auction.
I also see a syndicate of investors rather than enthusiasts who have an enormous amount to gain by proving a particular provenance for their chassis.
Since Backfire is either very close to, or a member of the Syndicate why not publish the Report by ex-Toleman employees???
Armed with that and a report from Allen Brown, I and many other people would find relatively easy to take a "balanced look at the evidence"


#79 Peter Morley

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:24

I interpreted this as referring to 02; are you saying that it was the 03 plate that was removed?


I've not been able to add much to this recently so have stood back.
Backfire is clearly better physically located than me to answer the queries - I would have loved to meet up with Chris Witty when TV Globo were filming 02, you can see him in the video but they don't seem to have interviewed him?

The 02 plate was never removed, it was on the car when it was raced by and later given to Stefan and hasn't been touched since - I've known this car for a long time (since before the current owners bought it).

The Mason car seemingly had the chassis plate removed when it left Toleman and 03's plate is still with a Toleman mechanic.
Mason's car was at some time fitted with a non-Toleman chassis plate with number 02.

Given that 01 is well known and un-questioned - it is in fact the car that is in the photos taken at Donington's GP live and is regularly demonstrated.
04 was destroyed along with Cecotto's careeer.

That leaves posibilities for Mason's car as 03 or 05 - unless they made a 6th thus far unknown chassis and that it is in fact a 184 chassis (the chassis they fitted the Rover V8 parts to and sold as the Hammond car was probably a 183 chassis).
Given that 05 is reported to be in South America and the known whereabouts of 03s chassis plate the most likely number of the Mason car is 03, but you would have to locate and verify the 05 history to be sure.



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#80 backfire

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:44

Thanks Peter for putting it clearly - I have not looked into the the history of 05 after 1984 for some time, but I seem, to remember it was offered as a prize in a lottery in South America after Nick acquired his car (I'm sure Allen Brown will be able to track the story).
I'm sorry that I seem to have upset Bill Harding, but he seems to have proven my previous point. Bill is right that I am "close" to a couple of members of the Syndicate that have owned 02 for over 17 years - just as he is close to Nick Mason. I have spoken to Roger Cowman (of the TG184-02 syndicate), he is not prepared to publish his private correspondence to all and sundry (he doesn't like forums!), but says he will offer some help to Allen Brown. As for the syndicate "having an enormous amount to gain..." I know roughly how much they paid for the car and can tell you it was not a small sum because of it's excellent provenance. Also it is truly privately owned (and not by a limited company such as Ten Tenths) - it has been shown at several major Senna events to the cost of the owners, and one of the reasons for the sale is the serious illness of one of the syndicate. On a more constructive note, Bill, Is there anything I have said about the syndicate car's provenance that you can find fault with?

#81 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:34

From where I am looking, I see one of the Worlds great collectors and enthusiasts who has owned his car since 1988 and who has commissioned Allen Brown to research it's provenance, not to prove a particular identity and long before the other car has come up for auction.
I also see a syndicate of investors rather than enthusiasts who have an enormous amount to gain by proving a particular provenance for their chassis.


This is a ridiculous argument, along the lines of Mutually Assured Destruction or Oligarch's interest in overpriced overseas property and football clubs.
The fact that someone is better off than someone else does not make them more of an enthusiast than someone who is less well off - a personal example is when I was talking to Ean Pugh at a race meeting and someone came up to ask about the histories of his and Robs Lamplough's BRMs, Ean pointed at me and said "ask him he knows far more about that than me".

The wealthy owner of TG184-dodgy chassis plate is not any more of an enthusiast than the owners of TG184-02, he might have a larger collection than them but that does not make them evil money grabbers.
Personally I'm a fan of Mr Mason's popular beat combo and admire his collection which is very similar to what I would choose if I could afford to do so - I'm not sure about the Aston Ulsters because we used to regularly beat Derek Edwards with our Riley Sprite in the days when Mr Mason was just starting to build his collection.

It is untrue to imply that Mr Mason has no interest in the value of his collection - he happily says that his GTO is worth 500-1,000 times what he paid for it and he recently wrote an article mentioning his purchase of a dodgy Alfa TZ and the fact that he had to pay considerably more for a proper one, once he'd got out of the duff one.

The person who can only afford a Frogeye Sprite or similar starter classic is not necessarily less of an enthusiast than someone who has lots of great historic cars - such as the DB3 owner who wasn't interested in the complete factory records of his car ("why would I want them, I've got the car and have done such and such with it").
Many of the wealthier enthusiasts tend to rely on advisers (who are not always fallible), probably because they are busy earning money rather than researching purchases, and a lot of them tend to follow the advice of these advisors rather than any personal desire/knowledge (this of course is true for more than just old racing cars - steam trains, art, stocks/shares etc).
I'm not saying that Mr Mason is one of those, but there aren't many wealthy collectors such as Ean Pugh who only buy cars that they saw race with their own eyes while there are plenty of poorer enthusiasts watching and dreaming that one day they might be able to own or drive just one of those cars.

Edited by Peter Morley, 13 April 2012 - 07:48.


#82 rbm

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:41

Didn't the small garage just down from the railway station at Foxfield (since closed, I think) do some preparation / restoration of single-seaters?


Slightly off topic, but yes Alex Tyson did prep some single seaters mainly as hill climb cars in the garage at Foxfield (only about 30 yards from my home)

Alex was a quite a handy hill climber himself in his day, unfortunately he passed away a year or so back having only made it to his mid 40s


Edited by rbm, 13 April 2012 - 10:42.


#83 Pullman99

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:54

Slightly off topic, but yes Alex Tyson did prep some single seaters mainly as hill climb cars in the garage at Foxfield (only about 30 yards from my home)Alex was a quite a handy hill climber himself in his day, unfortunately he passed away a year or so back having only made it to his mid 40s


Thank you rbm. That's sad to hear. I used to sometimes see one or two interesting cars outside his garage whilst passing through en-route to/from Barrow (or, occasionally, The Prince of Wales!).


#84 Bill Harding

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 23:49

"Backfire" I am not in any way upset by anything you have posted, you must have misread my posts.
Everything you say seems quite reasonable to me.
I would however like to read Allen's research when it is finished and of course the report that the syndicate has on their car before forming a personal opinion about the relevant indentities.
"Not liking forums" seems an odd reason not to release the contents of the report on the Syndicate car when they are vigorously promoting its sale.


#85 Red Socks

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 14:03

"Backfire" I am not in any way upset by anything you have posted, you must have misread my posts.
Everything you say seems quite reasonable to me.
I would however like to read Allen's research when it is finished and of course the report that the syndicate has on their car before forming a personal opinion about the relevant indentities.
"Not liking forums" seems an odd reason not to release the contents of the report on the Syndicate car when they are vigorously promoting its sale.

I do find myself some what in sympathy with Bills view here. The standard of '' evidential proof'' BECAUSE I SAY SO seems somewhat lower than I would expect on this forum , but so far this is all that seems to have been provided on behalf of the car to be sold and that from a party whose identity is concealed and thus whose evidence is untestable but seems to have an involvement -active or passive-with the vendors.
TNF usually does better than this.

#86 backfire

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 15:15

Yes I am a friend of the syndicate, but I am also known to Nick Mason - so I choose, like many other people on forums, to hide my identity. As I have said before, I also knew several people involved with Toleman Motorsport, hence the interest and knowledge. I wish I could post all the correspondence confirming the "Syndicate " car as the true Senna TG184-02, but you must understand, they are private letters, from some very well known people, and I don't blame Roger Cowman for not wanting them splashed all over the internet. I could, also, ask for Nick Mason to publish all his private correspondence for his car (or his agent in this matter, Bill Harding).
In the interests of truth and knowledge, I have tried to give as much information to the forum as I can, so I don't know what "Red Socks" is disappointed about. I have reported that there are letters when the car was purchased, recent inspections by one of the designers and senior mechanics, the fact that TG184-03 chassis plate has been in the care of an ex Toleman mechanic since before Toleman Motorsport closed, my own photographic evidence of the (now lost) chassis plate on the Mason car, the easy to research, roll over bar evidence and the uninterrupted ownership history as a complete car. So far, we have a claim that the Mason car was sold to him as TG184-02 (not by Toleman or anybody involved with them), the fact that some of the body panels are stencilled 02 (this is quite likely the spare bodywork for the Syndicate car, as they don't have it) and of course that missing chassis plate..... So like it or not Red Socks, I would think I have made my case with evidence and reported "insider" knowledge (if you don't believe this, then you are calling me a liar), rather than "BECAUSE I SAID SO", perhaps you could do your own research and present the evidence. This is a forum and not a law court, it's a place to chat about interesting things - I rest my case mi Lud!


#87 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 22:25

I ought to keep out of this because of my connections with a well-known auction house although it is not one involved in this malarkey. However, here goes. I thought we would have photography of Monaco 1984 but - perhaps thankfully - I find this is not so.

However - unless falsified by Photoshop attention - the ONLY irrefutable evidence of chassis identity then and now is the photographic record. Roll-over bar configuration is worthwhile evidence but over many years we have found that pit or paddock shots with body removed can be utterly conclusive if the underlying structure has indeed survived until today.

Footboxes are often exposed and photography records rivet patterns specific to individual aluminium tubs, carbon weaves and seams specific to carbon tubs, and distinctive fixtures and fittings which conclusively identify tubs of both types. I have to say that such evidence, in most cases within my experience, has disproved what owners, vendors, factories, mechanics, chassis plates and documents have all claimed to be absolutely true. The worst case, in my view, was one involving a well-known Italian marque who sold an F1 car to a personal friend of the boss, complete with authentication certificate and a claimed history which the photo record proved to be complete umbala - the structure presented today was in detail totally different to the structure frozen on film back at the time it won its races.

So don't merely waste your time on fallible human testimony...call LAT Photographic or Sutton or dear old Ted Ferret or - hem hem - us at The GP Library (for almost any worthwhile race 1902-2002 except Monaco 1984) and the film strips and transparencies will probably provide the absolute clincher.

DCN

#88 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 23:18

call LAT Photographic or Sutton or dear old Ted Ferret or - hem hem - us at The GP Library (for almost any worthwhile race 1902-2002 except Monaco 1984)


Or (e) all of the above. :)

#89 backfire

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:03

I can't disagree with Doug on his comments, however a word of caution, Senna was swapping between 01 & 02 during practice at Monaco (& other races too), so you would have to be able to clearly identify which chassis' photograph you were studying (most body off pics will be taken during practice). In the meantime, doesn't the existing "evidence" favour the Syndicate car as TG184-02? and I still ask myself why the desire to prove a car with virtually no creditable evidence to be that one.

#90 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:51

Or (e) all of the above. :)


Or me..... :wave:

Here's some clipped photos direct off the slides, no photo shop, no enhancing at all.

Monaco
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Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


Brands Hatch

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Dallas

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Dijon

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Zeltweg

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Spot the odd one out....


If anyone (owners, syndicates,auction houses, Doug....) wants the full photos from which these are clipped just let me know. Happy to oblige. :)

Edited by simonlewisbooks, 17 April 2012 - 08:55.


#91 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:07

The bottom pic has a taller look rollbar. But to me it looks like a piece of plastic or carbon fibre put over the roll bar. Which does not make sense really. Unless it is a camera or similar.
It appears that Senna drove and probably raced most of these cars adding to confusion. The car with the most value is the one that nearly won at Monaco.
Though it seems the only complete unmolested one is the Johansen car. And an unmolested car still has big value.

#92 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:39

Looks to me as if a small extension was in evidence in Dallas and a much bigger one for Austria. The original did look a bit lowline and might have been marginal on the rules if Senna changed the fit of the seat for some reason, or even wore a different helmet with slightly thicker padding, or which sat higher on his head for some reason?

#93 mfd

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:55

Looks to me as if a small extension was in evidence in Dallas and a much bigger one for Austria. The original did look a bit lowline and might have been marginal on the rules if Senna changed the fit of the seat for some reason, or even wore a different helmet with slightly thicker padding, or which sat higher on his head for some reason?

Looking at your photos Simon & it appears with the timeline (Dijon first) that it took Senna seven races to change to a new helmet...can you imagine that today?
Sorry Seb, you've got to wear this helmet from now until the end of July :rolleyes:

Edited by mfd, 17 April 2012 - 11:57.


#94 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:33

Looking at your photos Simon & it appears with the timeline (Dijon first) that it took Senna seven races to change to a new helmet...can you imagine that today?
Sorry Seb, you've got to wear this helmet from now until the end of July :rolleyes:

No :lol: What would his manger do to appease sponsors who have been promised a helmet that's graced Seb's head..? Well for at least one practice session anyway!

#95 Nordic

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:54

No :lol: What would his manger do to appease sponsors who have been promised a helmet that's graced Seb's head..? Well for at least one practice session anyway!


Not to mention the collectors who in years to come want to sell them as the 'Helmet Seb wore at such a race'

#96 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:20

Not to mention the collectors who in years to come want to sell them as the 'Helmet Seb wore at such a race'

Tell me about it :lol:
I was once told a certain multiple world champion's manager had him wear a new lid every time he sat in a car, all of which were then wrapped up safe and sound and passed on at a tidy sum - having genuinely been 'worn by...' . Even if only for a lap or two.
It may be apocryphal... but I somehow doubt it...


#97 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:11

Which, again, goes to show that all (?) collectors are nuts. Anyone wanting to pay a premium price for the "exact car Senna drove at Monaco" deserves to be ripped off...

#98 kurtiejjj

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:21

To liven this thread up a little, here's the car and man in question at Monaco 1984 going through, I think, Tabac.. Forgive me for putting my site's logo (www.theretromobilist.com) right over the image (this is all the negative could give me in terms of quality), hope this prevents it from ending up in places where I don't want it to end up :drunk:

Posted Image

That reminds me, I still have a Toleman front-wing languishing in my shed, albeit it is a 1985 one, can anyone finally shed light on those cars??

Edited by kurtiejjj, 17 April 2012 - 16:22.


#99 mikeC

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:04

I can't disagree with Doug on his comments, however a word of caution, Senna was swapping between 01 & 02 during practice at Monaco (& other races too), so you would have to be able to clearly identify which chassis' photograph you were studying (most body off pics will be taken during practice). In the meantime, doesn't the existing "evidence" favour the Syndicate car as TG184-02? and I still ask myself why the desire to prove a car with virtually no creditable evidence to be that one.


But if Nick Mason's car is 03 as you suggest, then a photograph would eliminate it from this discussion...

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#100 MCS

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:34

Which, again, goes to show that all (?) collectors are nuts. Anyone wanting to pay a premium price for the "exact car Senna drove at Monaco" deserves to be ripped off...


Not sure I am with you there, Michael - which is extremely unusual. But I have to say that I continue to be baffled by the "anything and everything Senna related" obsession that people seem to have.

Edited by MCS, 17 April 2012 - 17:34.