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Senna's Toleman for sale ...


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#151 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:04

While I agree with you the number of 5000s at least that are being restored? at huge expense tends to nullify that.
Though F1s are a different story ofcourse in comparison to a humble old Chevy or 308.But still more than 1 person required to run the car.

As for the VW6 being worth more than the Toleman defenitly not. BUT a lot easier to sell,a lot more useable in real terms. You cannot take the Toleman on a Sunday drive, or at least not on the streets!

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#152 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:15

The modern F1 cars don't always need so many people to run them, someone used to race a RAM Hart turbo car in EuroBOSS with just his girlfirend helping.
The problem is people running them like modern cars, they probably have more people looking after them than the teams did when they were current.

The cars with electronic injection are easier to start than the earlier mechanical ones, F3000 DFVs or F1 DFRs don't need someone squirting fuel down the inlets to start them or any fiddling with the mixture control once they've started, just press the button and it fires up like a road car - in fact fitting modern ECUs means they can even drive like a road car at low speeds.

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater - saying that I have seen a Tyrrell F1 driven round an industrial estate!!

#153 ensign14

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:28

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater - saying that I have seen a Tyrrell F1 driven round an industrial estate!!

Modern F1 cars can do that too. Every season in Valencia.

#154 bradbury west

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:13

...startline of the Goodwood FoS last year. Mephistopholes was driven down to the start and the driver executed a three-point turn and sat there with it ticking over, I won't say quietly but certainly contentedly, waiting for the start. ... You could see which car an owner could take to Oulton for a race meeting ...............


Duncan, you spoil me. The very thought of the above has made my morning.
Roger Lund


#155 mfd

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 14:57

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater


Certainly, this Toleman is only perceived to have a high value because of the Senna connection. but without it, what is it really worth? I suppose my point about the RS or similar is precisely about the usability & as a consequence, in relative terms the growth (in value) has been better than an F1 car.

#156 RTH

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:29

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.

You could have had 250 old Grand Prix cars for that money.

#157 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:44

Certainly, this Toleman is only perceived to have a high value because of the Senna connection. but without it, what is it really worth? I suppose my point about the RS or similar is precisely about the usability & as a consequence, in relative terms the growth (in value) has been better than an F1 car.


Probably a similar amount of money, you don't get much of a TGP type F1 car for that kind of money these days.

Toleman is hardly a bad name, they went on to win several championships (albeit under different names) and are likely to start coming first again (I don't think current F1 events merit the term winning!) this year.
There are a few post TGP cars that might be had for £100k (and they will be from a duff team) but most are similar prices to the RS.

The growth in value of RSs has hardly been a smooth progression, more of a boom & bust type progression (e.g. rapid increase), at some point they will have a 'price correction'.
Personally I'd have a lesser 911 and an F1 car - there are less turbo F1 cars than lightweight RSs and they are a hell of a lot more exciting to play with.

#158 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:56

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.

You could have had 250 old Grand Prix cars for that money.


Especially when it looked like Munch's daughter had knocked it up with her crayons...
At least he didn't get someone else to make it for him like Warhol or Hirst.

But it does show that something that is well known is exceedingly highly valued and Senna's drive at Monaco is something that is well known and remembered - it appears in most people's list of standout F1 memories along with his Donington opening laps, Fangio at the Nurburgring (which wasn't watched by millions on worldwide TV and was some time ago, so is less well known) etc and that is what makes it exceptional.

One problem would be if someone who buys such really expensive paintings (e.g. has an oil well in the back garden/desert) decides to buy old racing cars, he could buy them all and then we'd never see them again.

#159 Thundersport

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 21:16

Peter that RAM Turbo car did have a much smaller Turbo on it though along with other easier to manage parts. It wasn't a bespoke Turbo car like the Toleman is.

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#160 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 23:16

Peter that RAM Turbo car did have a much smaller Turbo on it though along with other easier to manage parts. It wasn't a bespoke Turbo car like the Toleman is.


But an engine is basically a component that is taken out and handed to an engine builder (along with a large wad of money) occasionally, if you're messing around with it at a race meeting you're probably in serious trouble (of course that applies to pretty much any race car).

Presumably the starting/warming up procedure is similar (and nothing like the more modern stuff that won't turn over unless it is thoroughly pre-warmed) and the rest of the car will be similar, so there isn't that much to do in normal situations - Senna's Monaco practice car is used regularly and without obvious difficulty (one huge advantage of turbo cars is it is easy to wind down the boost to increase engine life).

You only have to look at current F1 pitstops to see that you can throw a lot of people at even the most basic operation in F1, but you don't have to do so.
Someone can take a load of mechanics to a race meeting, but that just reduces the amount of time it takes do so something - which isn't usually an issue with old cars (it was different in F3000 when we had 45 mins between qualifying sessions, but we still managed with 2 or 3 mechanics).

#161 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:35

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.


Nor me :lol:

Classic case of the 'Emperor's New Clothes' .

#162 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 20:01

It's time to wake up this thread with an appeal.  I have still not identified all the TG184s but I got a step closer today when one of the three owners agreed with me about the identification of his car.  So of the three TG184s discussed on this thread, two were misidentified.

 

But I am still not quite there.  I am 100% sure about two of the cars but only 80% sure of the third.

 

To complete this, I NEED more pictures of the TG184s from 1984, especially pictures of the cars in the pits, garage or paddock with the bodywork off or at least with the engine cover off. 

 

Can anyone help?  Scanned pictures from books or magazines are fine for this purpose.  Contact me directly at allen@allenbrown.co.uk if you prefer.



#163 E1pix

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 19:33

Sometimes "No" is haunting for a while...

I was commissioned to fly to Long Beach in 1983 to paint and letter the factory Van Diemen Super Vees. In the Convention Center one evening, I was approached by Toleman's Team Manager while lettering for John Andretti, complimenting my work and asking if I wanted to be their sign painter for 1984. Having a solid girlfriend and a thriving business, and being just 22, the concept was beyond me.

Tragic error, Bad E1!

#164 GMACKIE

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 20:39

Mustn't look back, Eric....you'll just get a sore neck. :wave:



#165 JacnGille

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 00:44

Mustn't look back, Eric....you'll just get a sore neck. :wave:

:up: