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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 17:25

The general standard of Wikipedia has improved immeasurably in recent years, but here's a funny one. What do you make of this shot of Georges Boillot winning the 1912 'French GP'? Celebrating it, maybe, but where?

http://en.wikipedia....-ACF-GP1912.jpg

DCN

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#2 MCS

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 17:50

The general standard of Wikipedia has improved immeasurably in recent years, but here's a funny one. What do you make of this shot of Georges Boillot winning the 1912 'French GP'? Celebrating it, maybe, but where?

http://en.wikipedia....-ACF-GP1912.jpg

DCN


My initial thought was Montlhéry, but I don't think it is. Really not sure - looks like a velodrome.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 17:55

Piste Municipale de Vincennes. :)

http://gallica.bnf.f...0496p.r=.langFR

And as a bonus: match race on the Vel d'Hiver, featuring Boillot and Guippone -

http://gallica.bnf.f...elodrome.langFR

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 18:10

Here's another one:

http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b69205323

#5 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 18:11

Piste Municipale de Vincennes. :)

http://gallica.bnf.f...0496p.r=.langFR

And as a bonus: match race on the Vel d'Hiver, featuring Boillot and Guippone -

http://gallica.bnf.f...elodrome.langFR


Track made of wood planks? Looks like ..

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 18:31

If you look here you'll find even more you didn't know.

http://en.wikipedia....ench_Grand_Prix

#7 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 18:44

If you look here you'll find even more you didn't know.

http://en.wikipedia....ench_Grand_Prix


I was at this place in Dieppe, it is close to the Alpine factory

#8 elansprint72

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 18:48

Hey, one has to be quick here!
The Vincennes velodrome is the only one I can recall with trees standing inside the piste. Eddy Merckx rode to triumph in the 69 Tour here and... France played against England here at cricket!

Vincennes

#9 Allan Lupton

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 20:53

The general standard of Wikipedia has improved immeasurably in recent years.

Slight digression to say yes, many of us have been editing subjects we care about, to try to achieve better accuracy - e.g. in the Lea-Francis entry someone had referred to "the Ulster TT, a 13.5 mile (21.7 km) race on the roads of Northern Ireland" . It was, of course, a 30 lap race and each lap was 13½ miles as the corrected version now says.
There is still the problem that the original perpetrator can edit his error back in if he doesn't happen to agree, not to mention the amount of time spent removing deliberate vandalism.
Locally we did have someone whose subjective and axe-grinding view of recent history got him banned by the Wikistasi*, so they do put some controlling effort in nowadays.

*or Wikisecuritate?

Edited by Allan Lupton, 30 March 2012 - 20:54.


#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 21:00

From Le Figaro, July 8th 1912, p6. Postscript to their report of Le Grand Prix Cycliste de Paris:

Posted Image

#11 Gary C

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 21:06

......what's the horse race track in Paris?

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 22:33

France played against England here at cricket!

Well, nominally anyway. At least nine of the "French" team were British expats or embassy staff and the "England" team were actually a "nomadic" touring side called Devon & Somerset Wanderers. It was one of three games D&SW played in France: they won them all, but apparently didn't think much of their local opposition, who they found "too excitable" to take the game seriously. It was an exhibition game held as part of the 1900 World's Fair and 12 years later was retrospectively reclassified as an Olympic event: Great Britain are therefore the reigning Olympic cricket champions. This may change in 2020, when it is possible that 20/20 Cricket may be part of the games.

http://www.espncrici...tch/320838.html

#13 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:07

France played against England here at cricket!


Ken Tyrrell would have know that!


#14 arttidesco

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:15

Ken Tyrrell would have know that!


Sorry to go further off topic but was Uncle Ken a fan of the 'Belgian' game ?

#15 MCS

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:19

......what's the horse race track in Paris?


Which one? There are several e.g. Longchamp, Saint Cloud, Chantilly...

#16 DogEarred

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:54

Which one? There are several e.g. Longchamp, Saint Cloud, Chantilly...


There's a nice, dedicated cycling path/track that goes all round the outside of Longchamps. Anybody (& everybody) uses it but watch out for the professional teams practising - they don't like giving way to old women (like me) with baskets of baguettes on their handlebars...

Edited by DogEarred, 31 March 2012 - 07:54.


#17 JtP1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:46

On the Jim Clark Wiki page, there is a photo captioned "Clark at 1964 German GP". Clark looks a bit pensive, which is not surprising as the photo is of a F2 car with a 1lt SCA.

So one should never rely on Wiki as a tablet of stone.

#18 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:02

Sorry to go further off topic but was Uncle Ken a fan of the 'Belgian' game ?


He was always asking for the scores

#19 Stephen W

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:04

There is still the problem that the original perpetrator can edit his error back in if he doesn't happen to agree, not to mention the amount of time spent removing deliberate vandalism.


I submitted a piece to wiki and within 48 Hours it had been vandalised. I deleted all the crap and resubmitted but again the same people went in and made erroneous changes so I deleted the piece. I then got asked why so I gave them both barrels and have never been back. I wouldn't trust it to get today's date correct!

:evil:

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:13

Nice to see that Wiki uses such trusted and peer-reviewed sources as "Boulton, Jim (1986). "Unpublished Book. Chapter 2 part 4", which provides us with interesting typos like "Kelemn Lee Guiness". Still, I suppose one right out of three isn't bad - it would probably get you a GCSE these days ... :rolleyes:

(Info about Sunbeam on that page is likely cribbed from Karslake and Nickols' "Motoring Entente", since Heal's book on racing Sunbeams wasn't published until 1989.)

#21 arttidesco

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:40

Check out the ALFA Romeo 182 with 183 livery on this page, I've corrected the image title proper but lost patience trying to work out how to correct the entry page :drunk:

#22 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:11

And all this even when it is better today than it ever used to be. Like a seaplane taking off from the Dead Sea, it has to climb how far before it's above most people's sea level?

DCN

#23 arttidesco

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 13:10

And all this even when it is better today than it ever used to be. Like a seaplane taking off from the Dead Sea, it has to climb how far before it's above most people's sea level?

DCN


Or as Gerhard Richter once said there is hope even in a disaster zone  ;)

#24 Allan Lupton

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 13:38

And all this even when it is better today than it ever used to be. Like a seaplane taking off from the Dead Sea, it has to climb how far before it's above most people's sea level?

DCN

In a similar vein, I think it was a Groucho Marx character who started with nothing, but eventually raised himself to abysmal depths.

#25 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 14:25

:lol: :up:

DCN

#26 Rob

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 14:26

There is still the problem that the original perpetrator can edit his error back in if he doesn't happen to agree, not to mention the amount of time spent removing deliberate vandalism.
Locally we did have someone whose subjective and axe-grinding view of recent history got him banned by the Wikistasi*, so they do put some controlling effort in nowadays.


I edit at Wikipedia as well. Fortunately, you can take disputes to the relevant WikiProjects and then even higher up if you need to. As long as the evidence supports your view, you'll be fine.

On the Jim Clark Wiki page, there is a photo captioned "Clark at 1964 German GP". Clark looks a bit pensive, which is not surprising as the photo is of a F2 car with a 1lt SCA.

So one should never rely on Wiki as a tablet of stone.


It's a picture of Clark. The meeting is the 1964 German GP. The text doesn't say that it's his car that he's looking at. Remember, it's quite difficult getting hold of copyright free images so often we have to make do with whatever we can get.

I submitted a piece to wiki and within 48 Hours it had been vandalised. I deleted all the crap and resubmitted but again the same people went in and made erroneous changes so I deleted the piece. I then got asked why so I gave them both barrels and have never been back. I wouldn't trust it to get today's date correct!


Stephen, please don't believe that your experience is representative of Wikipedia as a whole. We're generally very welcoming if you have information to contribute. If you'd like to let me know which page it was, I can look into this for you.

Nice to see that Wiki uses such trusted and peer-reviewed sources as "Boulton, Jim (1986). "Unpublished Book. Chapter 2 part 4", which provides us with interesting typos like "Kelemn Lee Guiness". Still, I suppose one right out of three isn't bad - it would probably get you a GCSE these days ... :rolleyes:


If you can let me know which page uses this "Unpublished Book" as a source then I'll stamp that out. That's just taking the mick, really.


#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 14:53

If you can let me know which page uses this "Unpublished Book" as a source then I'll stamp that out. That's just taking the mick, really.

http://en.wikipedia....ench_Grand_Prix :)

#28 Rob

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 15:20

http://en.wikipedia....ench_Grand_Prix :)


I've swapped in a better reference.

#29 JtP1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 16:49

It's a picture of Clark. The meeting is the 1964 German GP. The text doesn't say that it's his car that he's looking at. Remember, it's quite difficult getting hold of copyright free images so often we have to make do with whatever we can get.


It is quite clearly a F2 Lotus, rubber doughnut driveshafts and cantilever front wishbones etc. But why would there be a F2 Lotus at the 1964 German GP at Nurburgring?

Found another, "Theme Lotus" page 91, Clark lifting a wheel at Monza in 67, with a Lotus 43 and BRM H16?

#30 Rob

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 19:18

It is quite clearly a F2 Lotus, rubber doughnut driveshafts and cantilever front wishbones etc. But why would there be a F2 Lotus at the 1964 German GP at Nurburgring?


A support race?

#31 PCC

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 20:00

I've swapped in a better reference.

It's great that you had the time and willingness to do that. But is this not part of the problem with Wikipedia? In a traditional published encyclopedia, major errors and inadequacies would have been dealt with before publication, and readers wouldn't have to cross their fingers that the last person to have edited the article they're reading was competent.

#32 JtP1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 22:10

A support race?


German F1 2nd August, F2 race Brands 3rd August won by Jim Clark in Ron Harris Lotus 32.

#33 Rob

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 22:35

German F1 2nd August, F2 race Brands 3rd August won by Jim Clark in Ron Harris Lotus 32.


Good point. I was trying to play devil's advocate before but I think you're probably right. I'm trying to contact the user who posted the photo just to double check. If this yields nothing then I'll get it changed.

#34 Rob

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 22:49

It's great that you had the time and willingness to do that. But is this not part of the problem with Wikipedia? In a traditional published encyclopedia, major errors and inadequacies would have been dealt with before publication, and readers wouldn't have to cross their fingers that the last person to have edited the article they're reading was competent.


You've got to remember that Wikipedia is edited by volunteers who are doing it for free. I'm a great believer in the power of collaboration and I think a lot of articles now are of a decent quality. If one wants to judge the quality of an encyclopaedia by statistical outliers then Wikipedia will always lose by its very nature, but in general its reliability is pretty good. The scientific journal, Nature, did a study on the reliability of Wikipedia and found that it was about on a level with Encyclopaedia Britannica. Britannica has plenty of errors itself. What this does show is that no encyclopaedia can ever be looked upon as completely error-free.

If Wikipedia has reminded everyone about double checking and not blindly believing everything that is written then I think it's done the world a huge favour.

#35 LittleChris

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 22:58

If Wikipedia has reminded everyone about double checking and not blindly believing everything that is written then I think it's done the world a huge favour.


Absolutely and thanks for your efforts here Rob


#36 Allan Lupton

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:20

It's great that you had the time and willingness to do that. But is this not part of the problem with Wikipedia? In a traditional published encyclopedia, major errors and inadequacies would have been dealt with before publication, and readers wouldn't have to cross their fingers that the last person to have edited the article they're reading was competent.

One of the messages that is hard to get over to some is that any internet site can be updated, unlike a printed book which is the same for the whole print run (and however long it is then in circulation).
When debating the Club website I am involved with, I am up against someone whose working life was in publishing (as an Editor and a lexicographer) who sometimes resists change to the site as determinedly as if we were proposing a reprint of a large book.

#37 D-Type

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:56

That's the strength and the weakness of Wikipedia - that it can be easily updated.
I have made some changes to the the Lotus Eleven entry. It said it came in two versions "Club" and "Le Mans". It took me at least three attempts to correcrt it to three versions - "Club", "Sport" and "Le Mans" as someone kept stubbornly changing it back to two. It was only after I described the two body styles, ie with and without headrest and stated that these did not relate to the model type that the change stayed. Likewise it took three attempts to say that the normal Climax version 1100 and that 1500 was unusual. This only stuck when I added all the Climax designations and other engine options. It also appeared to have bben written by someone pushing the Westfield but when I added some other copycats it stayed. I've given up trying to sort the clumsy style all these ping pong games have led to.
Is there some way you can contact "Wikipedia" when someone keeps putting up misinformation?

#38 JtP1

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:46

If you look here you'll find even more you didn't know.

http://en.wikipedia....ench_Grand_Prix


The clue would seem to be in the caption. This is Boillet celebrating his win at the French GP at Dieppe. The race was obviously held at Dieppe, but this is obviously Boillet doing a lap at the velodrome at Paris. So he is celebrating the win in front of the Paris crowd at a later date for publicity purposes.

#39 Allan Lupton

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:48

The clue would seem to be in the caption. This is Boillet celebrating his win at the French GP at Dieppe. The race was obviously held at Dieppe, but this is obviously Boillet doing a lap at the velodrome at Paris. So he is celebrating the win in front of the Paris crowd at a later date for publicity purposes.

That's after Rob modified the caption yesterday!

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#40 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:09

The clue would seem to be in the caption. This is Boillet celebrating his win at the French GP at Dieppe. The race was obviously held at Dieppe, but this is obviously Boillet doing a lap at the velodrome at Paris. So he is celebrating the win in front of the Paris crowd at a later date for publicity purposes.

Obvious to anyone who knows what the Dieppe course looked like. But the text of the entry doesn't tell you. To the uninitiated that picture shows the course, with Boillot doing a lap of honour. It doesn't say anywhere on the page that the picture was taken at Vincennes, two weeks after the race.

As for the text - well, words fail me!

"Similar to a modern rally race" - no. Not at all.

Try following the link which says "coupé". Bears no resemblance to anything to do with the GP de l'ACF. What it's meant to cover is the Coupe de l'Auto, which was a subsidiary competition within the GP de l'ACF.

Ralph De Palma - about as Italian as Mario Andretti or Dario Resta.

There's probably more, but I'm losing the will to live ...

#41 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:24

That's after Rob modified the caption yesterday!

I'm not seeing a modified caption - despite clearing my browser cache - even though the page history says there is one!

Just checked another browser - not showing there either. :confused:

#42 Allan Lupton

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 13:18

I'm not seeing a modified caption - despite clearing my browser cache - even though the page history says there is one!

Just checked another browser - not showing there either. :confused:

The main page has "Georges Boillot celebrating his win at the 1912 French Grand Prix" as modified by Rob.
Click on the photo to get it larger and nearer the source and it does still say"Georges Boillot winning the 1912 French Grand Prix in Dieppe, France."
I use Firefox, but I dug IE out of the bowels of this computer to check and both show as above.

#43 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 13:33

Obvious to anyone who knows what the Dieppe course looked like. But the text of the entry doesn't tell you. To the uninitiated that picture shows the course, with Boillot doing a lap of honour. It doesn't say anywhere on the page that the picture was taken at Vincennes, two weeks after the race.

As for the text - well, words fail me!

"Similar to a modern rally race" - no. Not at all.

Try following the link which says "coupé". Bears no resemblance to anything to do with the GP de l'ACF. What it's meant to cover is the Coupe de l'Auto, which was a subsidiary competition within the GP de l'ACF.

Ralph De Palma - about as Italian as Mario Andretti or Dario Resta.

There's probably more, but I'm losing the will to live ...

I think that the 175cm restriction was a maximum, not a minimum and that Bruce-Brown, not Hemery, led at the end of the first lap.


#44 David McKinney

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 20:14

[Ecclestone] returned to racing in 1957 as manager of driver Stuart Lewis-Evans, and purchased the assets of the F1 Connaught team, whose drivers included Lewis-Evans, Roy Salvadori, Archie Scott Brown and Ivor Bueb. Ecclestone even attempted, unsuccessfully, to qualify a car himself at Monaco in 1958

Above from wikipedia

It’s far from the most inaccurate ‘fact’ on the site (though I don’t recall Salvadori ever driving for the Connaught team)

What is more distressing is that it appears to be the basis for a question on tonight’s Mastermind (subject: The History of the Monaco Grand Prix) in which the contestant was asked “which owner of the Connaught team ... tried but failed to qualify” for the 1958 race?

As any fule kno, Bernie did not buy the Connaught team (or its assets) – he bought two cars when the team was disbanded

And I have yet to see proof that he attempted to qualify one of the cars at Monaco, rather than just having a couple of informal laps during practice

Little wonder the contestant was unable to answer correctly – there is no correct answer

#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 20:28

Yes, I saw that as well and groaned inwardly when I heard the question. I did look to see who the specialist question setter was, but none of the names were familiar.

Still, the contestant did go on to win, so ultimately no harm done.

#46 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 21:49

Above from wikipedia

It’s far from the most inaccurate ‘fact’ on the site (though I don’t recall Salvadori ever driving for the Connaught team)


Might I commend the Honourable member to the 1953 season?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 April 2012 - 21:52.


#47 midgrid

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 21:52

(though I don’t recall Salvadori ever driving for the Connaught team)


Salvadori drove for Connaught in 1953, although the wording was confusing as it implied that the named drivers were all in the employ of Connaught when Ecclestone acquired the cars. I've tweaked the wording the the article to reflect this.

EDIT: I've also changed the article to address the other points that you raised.

Edited by midgrid, 06 April 2012 - 22:05.


#48 Allan Lupton

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 22:52

Salvadori drove for Connaught in 1953, although the wording was confusing as it implied that the named drivers were all in the employ of Connaught when Ecclestone acquired the cars. I've tweaked the wording the the article to reflect this.

EDIT: I've also changed the article to address the other points that you raised.


The entry for Connaught Engineering was originally one of the many prepared by someone doing the history of the effone world championship and was pretty skimpy on correct facts. I had quite a go at it on Sunday, and I think it's better now, but there are still things I know to be wrong but can't prove.
If you are also 'midgrid' there you don't seem to have edited that one since June '07 so I suppose it's the Ecclestein entry you're referring to.

#49 David McKinney

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:37

Might I commend the Honourable member to the 1953 season?

DCN

That's true - guess my brain was in 1957/58 mode, when Salvadori's "works" drive was in one of Bernie's privately-owned cars in NZ