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#151 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:36

There have been at least two threads on TNF here about that, don't have the time now to find them.
Conclusions IIRC:
- It was 11 seconds when Gilles crossed the line, later Jody put it down to "just" 9.6 seconds.
- There were just 5 or so drivers on the track during the entire session as it was completely flooded, and nobody had the guts to try to go the limit - apart from Gilles.
Jody was second with some margin on the others.



Thanks for the recap scheivlak. I vaguely recall that it was written about somewhere on the forum but couldn't remember the details.

Just watching the reasonably wet opening laps of the '79 Glen race now and a typical rocket-ship start from Gilles. His power sliding through some of the corners on the opening lap with what would obviously be cold tyres is absolutely sublime helping him to a 5 second lead on lap 2.

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#152 as65p

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:59

I think I understand what you try to say.and I can get along with that mind of thinking.
Do you feel the same about Senna in Monaco '88 when he had pole locked up by a large margin already but still wanted to go out and went out to go even faster? (which to his credit he did achieve and gave us another memorable moment in racing but one of which you may also wonder what........)


henri


To a degree, maybe. The main difference is that day we don't have to wonder who else was trying to set a fast lap, I'd prolly assume they all did. Probably Prost was content with being 2nd and stopped chasing the impossible at some point during the session, granted.

The main point however, is that Senna himself described that as a performance he could not repeat, a one-off.

I wonder why we talk about Senna...  ;)

#153 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:44

To a degree, maybe. The main difference is that day we don't have to wonder who else was trying to set a fast lap, I'd prolly assume they all did. Probably Prost was content with being 2nd and stopped chasing the impossible at some point during the session, granted.

The main point however, is that Senna himself described that as a performance he could not repeat, a one-off.

I wonder why we talk about Senna... ;)


We talked about Senna since you made it clear to me that (I do admit such) you made me realize that there was no real necesarity for Gilles to go out in the wet and be so fast as he was. It was not the one and only chance to qualify that weekend. Doesn't take away that even without the need, it is impressive to realize how fast he drove, withour it being vital for good reason.

I have always felt a kind of the the same about that Monaco '88 occurrance I mentioned. Pole was beyond everyone's reach so why risk the car for an even faster time that didn't bring anything? Still remains a fantastic performance nonetheless.
That you at least agree to some degree with that kind of surprises me. But given our past, for me it gives more credibility to your comments on Gilles.
Hope this explains it.

Henri

#154 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 13:06

I think both those above cases, Gilles 79 Glen and Senna 88 Monaco also show the purest essence of motorsport, i.e., their love for driving and going as quick as possible. I don't even think it was a question of beating the competition, but more to beat themselves and prove that they could achieve the seemingly impossible. Push the limit another few percent further.

#155 CSquared

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:00

OT: I won't say that of a grid including Slim Borgudd, Chico Serra and Eliseo Salazar ;)
Compare that with the 1967 Monaco grid where every driver had finished or would finish at least in the top 3 of a WDC GP..... which could be said of the three DNQ's as well!

Slightly more on topic:

I remember I was there when Villeneuve first drove the Ferrari at Fiorano. He spun wildly about three times and, with everything wreathed in smoke, he came into the pits. Forghieri looked at him, shaking his head, and said, 'Gilles, this is a Formula One Ferrari, it is not a Formula Atlantic car. You cannot stop it like an Atlantic car. You cannot use the brakes like that!'
"'Brakes?' Villeneuve said. 'What do you mean, brakes? I haven't even touched them yet...'
"You should have seen Forghieri's face!"


http://www.autosport...icle.php/id/314

Is it plausible that one could set a decent time at Fiorano without braking? Is the story possibly exaggerated or apocryphal? I can't read the article (subscribers only) so I don't know who the storyteller is.

#156 scheivlak

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:20

Is it plausible that one could set a decent time at Fiorano without braking? Is the story possibly exaggerated or apocryphal? I can't read the article (subscribers only) so I don't know who the storyteller is.

It's Pierre Dupasquier, the Michelin guy in a farewell interview given in 2005, looking back on his years in F1 which started with Renault and Ferrari choosing Michelin tyres in the late seventies.

And BTW, nowhere is said that Gilles did a decent time in those laps  ;)

#157 CSquared

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:51

It's Pierre Dupasquier, the Michelin guy in a farewell interview given in 2005, looking back on his years in F1 which started with Renault and Ferrari choosing Michelin tyres in the late seventies.

And BTW, nowhere is said that Gilles did a decent time in those laps ;)

By "decent" I meant anything close to racing speed. One way to get around a racetrack without braking is just to never get going very fast and/or close the throttle halfway down a straight and coast. I doubt Villeneuve was doing either of those.

#158 scheivlak

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:36

By "decent" I meant anything close to racing speed. One way to get around a racetrack without braking is just to never get going very fast and/or close the throttle halfway down a straight and coast. I doubt Villeneuve was doing either of those.

I think you're taking the story a bit too literally.....
It might just as well tell something about Gilles' sense of humour and approach to life in general ;)

It was told that he could drive on the Autostrada with a Ferrari sports car quite decently but the moment he was getting near Maranello and people were expecting to see him he would do the wildest things with the most light hearted smiles.

#159 CSquared

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:52

I think you're taking the story a bit too literally.....
It might just as well tell something about Gilles' sense of humour and approach to life in general ;)

It was told that he could drive on the Autostrada with a Ferrari sports car quite decently but the moment he was getting near Maranello and people were expecting to see him he would do the wildest things with the most light hearted smiles.

So the story's exaggerated and/or not meant to be taken seriously. Fair enough.

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#160 slideways

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:58

...I don't think a career should be blighted by involvement in one failed enterprise.


Actually it was the third failed team ownership bid by Windsor and the earlier two were no less successful. He was kidnapped at gunpoint from the Williams factory in '91 and beaten up by some Swiss goons relating to his involvement in the '88 Brabham takeover attempt, and failed to get the Ikuzawa project running as team manager in '94.

Also, he landed his management positions at Ferrari and Williams as part of Mansell's entourage and was not retained at either team after Nigel left.

#161 David M. Kane

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:10

Mark Hughes, Autosport F1 reporter here. I've been following the Gilles Villeneuve thread and read your comments with interest. I’m reluctant to join the forum discussion because it rightly belongs to readers, not journalists. But while fully respecting the views of everyone on here, on Gilles there's one particular bit that actually I thought I could supply you with a bit more detail on, if you're interested. The bit where cheapracer says:

“No, the way you abuse your extra hp does it. There's not a sensible person alive who would agree Gilles had car sensitivity.”

I would argue that actually the common perception of Gilles lacking sensitivity is a myth, however destructive he may have been. His tyre sensitivity was amazingly good - as I believe I can show you with both the history books and the recollections of those I've interviewed over the years. I happen to have all this stuff handy because I've just been writing features for the forthcoming 30th anniversary of his death.

Some hard facts first:

Montreal 1978. He chose the 143 compound Michelin, significantly softer than the 135 chosen by Reutemann and the Renaults. Michelin advised they did not think it could do a race distance. He proved them wrong and won the race.

Long Beach 1979. He made the exact same choice of 143 compound. Again his team mate (Scheckter) and the other Michelin runners went for the harder compound. Michelin again said they thought it was marginal - he again proved them wrong and won the race.

In 1980, the T5 was such a dog of a car often it could not make its tyres do a full distance. The Michelins had developed to work on the ground effect Renault by now. Neither Scheckter nor Villeneuve could make them last but Villeneuve almost always made them last longer than Scheckter - whilst invariably being well ahead of him. Here are the numbers from that year at the races where they had to stop:

Brazil. GV stopped L8. Scheckter L9. (the exception that proves the rule!)
Long Beach. Scheckter L4. Villeneuve lap 39 (though this was because Scheckter had flat spotted)
Monaco. Scheckter lap 13. Villeneuve lap 21.
France. Scheckter lap 11. Villeneuve lap 21.
Germany. Villeneuve lap 13. Scheckter lap 17 (another one!)
Austria. Scheckter lap 8. Villeneuve lap 20.
Holland. Scheckter lap 10. Villeneuve lap 17.

Miss out the anomalous one where Scheckter has flat spotted and on average Gilles was making those tyres last about 5 laps longer than Scheckter.

Now here's some quotes I got from various people about this particular point (Villeneuve's tyre usage).

Pierre Dupasquier (Michelin): "Yes, he was a little crazy. But I tell you, he was not hard on the tyre! He had fantastic feel and sensitivity. I could not believe it at first, but he was giving us really good direction from when we first started testing with Ferrari, much better than we were getting with Renault. Of the two Ferrari drivers at that time, Reutemann was very sensitive too, but Gilles could actually make them last longer. At Montreal we told him no way were those tyres going to last - but they did. He was like a magician with tyres! I know people dont realise this because the image is of him driving with three wheels and locking up fighting Arnoux, but those instances were not about making the tyres last. When he again made the choice of the soft tyre for Long beach in '79 I was again concerned, but by this time I had more faith in him because of what he had done in Montreal - and also what he had done one race before Long Beach at Kyalami. If you remember, there he came from half a minute back to catch Scheckter, made Jody work his tyres too hard and then just cruised past."

Scheckter: "He loved the image he had at Ferrari as the daredevil. But it was just for show. I used to ride with him from Nice and all the way there he would drive perfectly normal but as soon as he got near the factory and people were recognising him, he'd be wheelspinning and sliding and driving like a crazy man. It was just show. He was actually a very sensitive driver, he seemed to have a better feel for tyres than I did, could seem to make them last better even when he was going faster. That wasn't really an issue for me in '79, but it certainly was in '80."

Bruno Giacomelli: "He was not only fantastically quick. He had everything. He knew a lot of the technical side - in fact, he was a connoisseur of that. He knew exactly what the car was doing and he could talk about it very well. He was a very sensitive driver actually. He was certainly the greatest driver I ever saw - a guy that was going to win many, many world championships. When he first arrived in F1 his driving style was not really suitable for F1. He was still quick but the style made him have accidents too. But he learned and though he remained spectacular, he became smooth as well. People get the two confused. You can still be super-smooth but be right on the limits, using all the track and more. People saw him pushing like hell because his cars weren't competitive in 1980 and '81 - up on the grass, crazy things - but I tell you, he was smooth in the way that he used the car, in the inputs he made into it. You could see that just following him. He had one of the smoothest styles of all of us."

There's more, but I've probably bored you enough. I, like some of you, watched every race Gilles did live. For me, he was head and shoulders above the others - and quite a few (but not all) of his peers agreed. Laffite, Lauda, Arnoux, Prost, Tambay all are on record as saying he was the best of them all.

Anyway,
Best wishes
Mark


Brilliant stuff Mark, thank you. :up:


#162 JackMcFadden

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:54

Hi: I was fortunate to see Gilles race 5 or 6 times, win twice, come second once, and third once. Two of these races were in heavy rain, one, his first win, was in light snow. He will always be my greatest hero, and I have thought of him every day for 30 years. And his son is a fantastic driver and worthy world champion.

cheers,

Jack

#163 multivac

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:21


I know, it's crazy, but...


How about naming the new V12 Ferrari hyper-car after Gilles ?

What a great tribute that could be !



#164 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:57

Does anyone know what time Jacques will be heading out in the 312T4 in Maranello next week?

#165 depailler on tyrrell p34

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:03

Does anyone know what time Jacques will be heading out in the 312T4 in Maranello next week?


the exibition of jacques is close to the fans !!! if you are lucky you can see the car behind the net of the fiorano track..It's the usual italian shame..and I'm italian.
here what I think http://motorsportran...i-una-vergogna/




#166 zepunishment

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:25

the exibition of jacques is close to the fans !!! if you are lucky you can see the car behind the net of the fiorano track..It's the usual italian shame..and I'm italian.
here what I think http://motorsportran...i-una-vergogna/


I read your blog, I agree its sad that the fans can't get close enough to celebrate and pay their respects. It typifies modern F1...disconnected.


#167 RiDE

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:47

Quite unfortunate that it's not more accessible... is there anybody on track right now? I would love to see even a glimpse of it.

#168 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:43

Unfortunately I'm not there but my girlfriend is at Fiorano today although I'm not sure if she's been able to see anything.

Can't believe it's been 30 years. Just watched a few tribute videos but today it's hit me a little harder than usual.

Rest In Peace Gilles, your memory lives on strongly!

#169 FenderJaguar

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:48

Salut Gilles!

#170 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 13:19

You were the greatest Gilles. Salut.

#171 cheesy poofs

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:51

Words cannot describe...

http://instagr.am/p/KXpCt_p5c-/

#172 jrg19

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:54

http://www.youtube.c...;v=yjFpET0vK7g#!

#173 jrg19

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:59

Posted Image

#174 Andrew Hope

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 15:11

Posted Image

#175 midgrid

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 16:02

Posted Image

#176 TheBunk

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 16:41

Amazing to hear that car again. RIP Gilles.

#177 Peeko

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 17:01

Salut Gilles!

#178 RiDE

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 17:12

http://www.youtube.c...;v=yjFpET0vK7g#!


Awesome... :smoking:

#179 RiDE

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 17:21

More pictures:

http://www.f1fanatic...-wheel-ferrari/

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#180 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 17:45

More pictures:

http://www.f1fanatic...-wheel-ferrari/



Posted Image

This is a nice one!

#181 Missyb

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 19:03

Everyone will have differing opinions - we can't all have the same, clearly. I think a testament to Gilles is the way his other drivers and people involved in f1 spoke about him. True, he did not have the accolades that the likes of Prost/Senna etc had, but he also had a "sh*tbox" of a car for a period of time.

I'm not sure who made the comment about Niki Lauda being the only one to challenge Enzo Ferrari - in fact, Gilles did too. The comment about the car being a "sh*tbo" came from Gilles himself to Enzo, I believe - and he told him he would drive it to the best of his ability, for that was his job, but also told him it wasn't competitive. We all know what Enzo thought of Gilles; he rated him very highly as a driver and as a man.

I am glad Ferrari have done something to commemorate today - and I have to admit I'm pretty disappointed in Sky for not doing something similar - they have all that air time and a short half an hour documentary on Gilles would have been very fitting.

#182 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:38

The duel.



Still the standard of the best racing ever.

Posted Image

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 09 May 2012 - 00:42.


#183 fastlegs

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:51

This video has onboard footage of JV driving his dad's car today.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#184 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:14

This video has onboard footage of JV driving his dad's car today.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related



Bring back manual shift I say!

#185 TheBunk

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:51

This video has onboard footage of JV driving his dad's car today.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


Pretty tame and slow driving id say.

#186 FigJam

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:23

I didn't realise Jacques was there to wring the neck of the 312T4, have it on opposite lock at every opportunity...and then set a new lap record.

It was a demonstration run and JV said weeks ago he wasn't going to do anything brash or stupid with it. It's not like he needs to prove he's a madman like his illustrious father, he did that enough with Eau Rouge over the years.

On another note - as much as I like the 312 T4, personally would have loved to see Jacques take the 126CK out for a run.

Edited by FigJam, 09 May 2012 - 04:29.


#187 Aviator

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:07

Deeply emotional moments.
I was 17 y.o. then and couldn't ever imagine that Gilles would be honored 30yrs. later, by Ferrari, his old mechanics, his friends and all the people who loved him around the world, in such way. Congratulations to Ferrari, to Mr. Luca Di Montezemolo and to everyone who participated in organizing this event. Many thanks for the photographs and the videos. Bravissimo Jacques, your father will always live eternally in our hearts. Gilles per sempre...

Angelo

Edited by Aviator, 09 May 2012 - 06:08.


#188 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:28

Dissapointed Jacques didnt shave his head. He would look more of a racer.

#189 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:55

I didn't realise Jacques was there to wring the neck of the 312T4, have it on opposite lock at every opportunity...and then set a new lap record.

It was a demonstration run and JV said weeks ago he wasn't going to do anything brash or stupid with it. It's not like he needs to prove he's a madman like his illustrious father, he did that enough with Eau Rouge over the years.

On another note - as much as I like the 312 T4, personally would have loved to see Jacques take the 126CK out for a run.



The 312T4 in question comes from a private collection.
I wonder how many 126CKs are still around, let alone in drivable condition. Those first generation turbocharged F1 cars (77-82) were tricky to drive though Gilles made you believe it couldn't be that difficult with his drives at Monaco and Jarama with that came 126CK.....


Talking T4: so often being told do be ugly:
Compared with the current generation cars I think the T4 is a beauty in shape and proportions.

Henri

#190 skinnylizard

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:46

any idea what Alonso & Massa are chattin about around the 1.35 mark in this video

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


#191 BRG

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:38

any idea what Alonso & Massa are chattin about around the 1.35 mark in this video

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

FA: So this is the revised 2012 car? Looks good to me. Can't wait to race it.

FM: (gesturing) It's all yours, Ferdie, you're faster than me after all.

Edited by BRG, 09 May 2012 - 10:38.


#192 Peeko

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:46

any idea what Alonso & Massa are chattin about around the 1.35 mark in this video

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

FM: It's no wonder the cars used to touch all the time because the tracks were so narrow.

Then FA makes a joke about racing in Monte Carlo.

#193 FerrariFanInTexas

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:56

30 years ago (yesterday) I was in my second semester of college, 1500 miles from home. Following F-1 in the U.S. was not easy then. Learning the news about Gilles was devastating. He was (and is) my favorite driver, and his death was truly a shock. Very difficult for a homesick 18 year old.

I'm glad Ferrari honored the man, and I'm glad they had Jacques there to drive the 312T4.

OT: Are they all speaking Italian? Or is the Ferrari pit some mashup of Italian, Spanish, Portugese, English (and French if Jacques is hanging around)?

#194 TheBunk

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:06

I didn't realise Jacques was there to wring the neck of the 312T4, have it on opposite lock at every opportunity...and then set a new lap record.

It was a demonstration run and JV said weeks ago he wasn't going to do anything brash or stupid with it. It's not like he needs to prove he's a madman like his illustrious father, he did that enough with Eau Rouge over the years.


I never said he should, did I? I just thought it would bemore appropriate to see the car in a bit more speed than this low rev, easy braking we saw yesterday.


They push the 312 t4 a lot more in this video, with some proper revs at least. Gives much more an idea what a beast of a car this is, and what Gilles had to tame.



#195 Peeko

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 15:12

30 years ago (yesterday) I was in my second semester of college, 1500 miles from home. Following F-1 in the U.S. was not easy then. Learning the news about Gilles was devastating. He was (and is) my favorite driver, and his death was truly a shock. Very difficult for a homesick 18 year old.

I'm glad Ferrari honored the man, and I'm glad they had Jacques there to drive the 312T4.

OT: Are they all speaking Italian? Or is the Ferrari pit some mashup of Italian, Spanish, Portugese, English (and French if Jacques is hanging around)?

All Italian in the video, even Jacques.

#196 Craven Morehead

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 15:38

I still remember May 8, 1982 clearly.

I woke that morning to the news on my alarm/ clock radio. It seemed so unreal. A woman's voice was saying Gilles had died in Belgium. I just couldn't believe it. I was in the 12th grade and a big f1 fan. Following F1 in Canada in those days was less than easy, and news was not easy to get. No internet. There was a short write up on the accident in the afternoon paper, where I learned he had been thrown out of the car. Of course he was all over the tv news that night, which really pissed me off, as they had pointedly ignored him when he was alive.

I had to wait a couple months for Road & Track's GP coverage to catch up, and I recall Rob Walker wrote a fitting tribute. How times have changed. The internet now gives us F1 in great detail, hour by hour it seems. Those were such simple days..

Salut Gilles, you were one of a very special breed. My original boyhood hero, dead within three years of my discovering him. No more heros any more..

#197 sniper80

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 15:57

Very nice! Only active teams like Ferrari, McLaren and Williams can do this kind of thing. McLaren did it with Hamilton in Senna's car, imagine Bruno Senna doing arun in the 1994 Williams...

#198 jrg19

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 18:12

http://smibs.tv/live

talk of Gilles now.

#199 Victor

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:41

While anyone of us is still alive the memory of Gilles will be alive.
Thanks you Gilles for the best F1 moments ever.

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#200 Muz Bee

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:44

In my opinion there is a lot pure poppycock and wild drawing of inferences on this thread. PW's personal integrity shouldn't be judged on USF1's failure. He wasn't involved in scamming or failure to pay people (maybe others in the organisation were at some point) unlike Max Mosley's reported legendary failure to honour contracts as a principal of March.

Windsor is an honorary member of the F1 journo dream team whether you appreciate his somewhat florid style of describing drivers' styles or think they are rather more owing to imagination than visual evidence. Sometimes I find his style grates but I have to grudgingly admit that he has made a niche in F1 writing that Roebuck, Hamilton or Jenks never approached. All the aforementioned have their own styles and have made big contributions to the deeper understanding of the most complex sport in the world.

As for GV, well he probably best belongs in a box with Keke - never take your eyes off them because something special is likely to happen! Both of them were able to get a miracle out of an agricultural piece of c#^% like only Schumie in earlier days was able to do in a cumbersome Ferrari, or possibly Ayrton in the Lotus.

I won't read PW's article because I don't have time and I have heard so many superlatives heaped on the little French Canadian and somehow the legend seems a little overblown. Like with MS and Ayrton, they've done the "legend" thing to death. In reality there isn't a lot to choose between quite a few of the "masters" of F1 other than the era and the way they did it. Nuvolari, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Villeneuve, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso are pretty inseparable really, but JV never got a sniff of a WDC let alone 3, 5 or 7 of them. Maybe there's a few forgotten heroes who through lack of "success" get omitted from such lists.