10 replies to this topic

[cabianca]

As with any subject, the sources concerning Ford Advanced Vehicles and John Wyer Engineering are all over the map. I would be thankful for some guidance regarding the following issues:

Ford Advanced Vehicles seems to have begun in August 1963. Two key players were John Wyer and Eric Broadley.

Broadley's contract is variously described as:
One year and extended six months
Two years and ended early
My belief, at this point, is that Broadley began in Aug 63 and left at the end of January 1964.
Comments invited on the founding of FAV and Broadley's term there.

Build program under FAV.
"Around 100" GT-40 variants seem to have been produced by FAV. One source is specific, i.e. 7 Prototypes, 4 Roadsters, 3 MKIII road cars and 81 GT-40 variants = 95 total cars. I'm not so interested in specific numbers as I am if the fact that FAV built around 100 cars is correct.

Build program under John Wyer Engineering.
FAV was closed in late 1966, with many of the assets sold to John Wyer, who established John Wyer Engineering. JWA proceeded with a program where he built 50 more GT40s, some with street specification. Is this correct, i.e., were there two separate build programs.

I'm also not clear on the FIA rules to classify the cars. At one point during the GT40's life, were 100 cars required? Was the JWE buildout of 50 done in order to meet the 50 unit requirement for Sports Cars or had the FAV program already qualified the GT40 for that classification?

Many thanks.

[AJB]

I don't know about the build programme, but the requirement for GT cars up to 1965 was that 100 cars had to be built in a 12 month period, hence Ferrari trying to convince the FIA that the 250LM was nothing more than a legally modified 250GTO.

The FIA requirement for 50 cars to be built in 12 consecutive months in order to qualify for the new Group 4 was introduced for the 1966 season. The production requirement was reduced to 25 cars for the 1969 season.

Alan

[Duc-Man]

...a legally modified 250GTO.
Alan

And they made how many of those? 39? That didn't make the GTO very legal either.
Looking at those required production numbers makes me wonder if there where at the time actually any legal cars racing at all.
Sorry for gettin' OT.

[AJB]

And they made how many of those? 39? That didn't make the GTO very legal either.
Looking at those required production numbers makes me wonder if there where at the time actually any legal cars racing at all.
Sorry for gettin' OT.

Well there were certainly more than 50 GT40s built. Ferrari didn't manage to get the 250LM homologated as a GT car in 1964-65, but they managed to get it into the new Group 4 in 1966, despite nowhere near the requisite 50 units having been built.
I think the 250GTO got in as a modified 250 SWB. Yet they had the gall to protest the Breadvan (which really was a modified 250GT and within the regulations) which then had to run as a prototype in some races.

[Doug Nye]

QUOTE (cabianca @ Apr 1 2012, 15:39)
Build program under John Wyer Engineering.
FAV was closed in late 1966, with many of the assets sold to John Wyer, who established John Wyer Engineering. JWA proceeded with a program where he built 50 more GT40s, some with street specification. Is this correct, i.e., were there two separate build programs.

I'm also not clear on the FIA rules to classify the cars. At one point during the GT40's life, were 100 cars required? Was the JWE buildout of 50 done in order to meet the 50 unit requirement for Sports Cars or had the FAV program already qualified the GT40 for that classification?

Many thanks.

For starters JW was a partnership between John Wyer and Ford main dealer/racing team patron John Willment, the 'W' being derived from both surnames, not just 'Death Ray's. And it was JW Automotive Engineering usually abbreviated to just JW Automotive...or Gulf-JW. Since the time I have always had a cited total of 112 Ford GTs/GT40s lodged in my head. Marque specialists will know better.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 02 April 2012 - 21:34.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

QUOTE (cabianca @ Apr 1 2012, 15:39)
Build program under John Wyer Engineering.
FAV was closed in late 1966, with many of the assets sold to John Wyer, who established John Wyer Engineering. JWA proceeded with a program where he built 50 more GT40s, some with street specification. Is this correct, i.e., were there two separate build programs.

I'm also not clear on the FIA rules to classify the cars. At one point during the GT40's life, were 100 cars required? Was the JWE buildout of 50 done in order to meet the 50 unit requirement for Sports Cars or had the FAV program already qualified the GT40 for that classification?

Many thanks.

For starters JW was a partnership between John Wyer and Ford main dealer/racing team patron John Willment, the 'W' being derived from both surnames, not just 'Death Ray's. And was it JW Automotive Engineering usually abbreviated to just JW Automotive...or Gulf-JW. Since the time I have always had a cited total of 112 Ford GTs/GT40s lodged in my head. Marque specialists will know better.

DCN

Alan Mann produced a couple of prototype titanium GT40s as well. Were these modified JW cars or build-from-the-ground Mann-cars?

Jesper

[cabianca]

I don't know about the build programme, but the requirement for GT cars up to 1965 was that 100 cars had to be built in a 12 month period, hence Ferrari trying to convince the FIA that the 250LM was nothing more than a legally modified 250GTO.

The FIA requirement for 50 cars to be built in 12 consecutive months in order to qualify for the new Group 4 was introduced for the 1966 season. The production requirement was reduced to 25 cars for the 1969 season.

Alan

Thank you, Alan,
Considering this, my guess would be that the Ford Advanced Vehicles build group qualified the cars for the 1966 regs, since JW Engineering's (thanks, Doug) program did not begin until 1966. On the other hand, perhaps JW finshished their run of 50 before the season started, or the car was homologated after the season began. I do know that Grady Davis, a US Gulf Oil executive and racer ordered a car from JW at either Daytona or Sebring 66 and it was shipped to the US in April. Serial number was 1049. If the numbering system began with 1001, then 49 cars were done by April. Although it was raced in 1966, it only ran in US National events.

[David McKinney]

I believe 'production' numbers started at 1000, but six pre-production cars had been built before that

[Red Socks]

And they made how many of those? 39? That didn't make the GTO very legal either.
Looking at those required production numbers makes me wonder if there where at the time actually any legal cars racing at all.
Sorry for gettin' OT.

Just to deal with this the 250GTO was not in need of homologation as it was, arguably and sucessfully so, a derivative of the already homologated 250 SWB.

[Red Socks]

Thank you, Alan,
Considering this, my guess would be that the Ford Advanced Vehicles build group qualified the cars for the 1966 regs, since JW Engineering's (thanks, Doug) program did not begin until 1966. On the other hand, perhaps JW finshished their run of 50 before the season started, or the car was homologated after the season began. I do know that Grady Davis, a US Gulf Oil executive and racer ordered a car from JW at either Daytona or Sebring 66 and it was shipped to the US in April. Serial number was 1049. If the numbering system began with 1001, then 49 cars were done by April. Although it was raced in 1966, it only ran in US National events.

The GT 40 was homologated in readiness for the 1966 season on February 1st 1966 by Ford Advanced Vehicles Ltd who stated in their application that production had started on January 1st 1965 and completed with 50 cars built by 31st December. The homologation offers chassis numbers commencing GT40/101 or GT40P /1000.
Once the cars were homologated it was free for any organisation to run them and or modify them within the Group 4 rules just as in later years Porsche, for example, made the first series of assorted cars and others took over.

[D-Type]

Just to deal with this the 250GTO was not in need of homologation as it was, arguably and sucessfully so, a derivative of the already homologated 250 SWB.

Wasn't it originally the 250GT-Omologata (homologated), shortened for convenience to 250GT-O and later to 250GTO

The 250LM was different - the FIA considered moving the engine from front to rear was a bit more than a legal modification of the front engined 250GT series and rejected the homologation application. This rather upset old man Ferrari, leading to Surtees clinching the World Championship in a blue and white NART-entered Ferrari