Jump to content


Photo

Alfa Romeo P3


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#51 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,504 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:42

I don't think Alfa Romeo originally intended the 158 as a GP car per se, but the design parameters did dictate the width of the cockpit, in case they ever decided to run it in Formula races, perhaps bored out to a 178 or 208 or even with a 6C2500 installed? Ferrari may have been thinking ahead to 1941 when he allegedly proposed it though.

Equally, after Farina's run at Bremgarten, it is possible that Alfa might have considered (and we're entering fantasy land here) using the 158s in some Formula races in 1940: Monaco and Spain (if held at Montjuic) would be the obvious ones.


I think we are finally not too far away from each other :wave:

And that is what I mean... I understood from Mattijs (yes, him...;)) that the name Formula 1 (or series) were just a new name to an existing formula. So, that is what I am trying to find out (and since the most knowledge is on this site... :up: ) for I am not really working F1 (World Championship) but all the secondary series that more or less comply to F1 as well (Tasman 1965-1969, Aurora, South African F1 (thanks to Quinten) and so on). That means - in my opion any way - that I follow the regulations that were used to form F1 back to the days were they were implemented. So, to put it in different words: when did the regulations on which the F1 was based start and what kind of cars am I looking at from what year on?


Well, one can understand this question in two fifferent ways:

1. The formula itself - means the technical restrictions (engine size, weight, dimensions etc.). As already written what became Formula 1 in 1948 was the same as the Grand Prix Formula in 1947, which itself was a mixture of the old 1938 formula (4500 cc unsupercharged) and the quasi-standard (but not "official") voiturette category (1500 cc supercharged).

2. The idea of a formula - means the idea to make some restrictions on the cars that are allowed to a race or a "series". This is based on the recognition, that it is "unfair" to have different kind of cars compete against each other, and that if you don´t make any restrictions on technology, that this will lead to excessive and expensive design efforts and also to extremely dangerous cars. This idea is of course much older, reaching well back to the earliest days in motorracing, but with a gap between the late twenties and 1933. This was because in this period, there was some kind of a "natural" limit from the world-wide economical crisis and also the tyre standard of that time, which penalized powerful (and therefore very heavy) designs. Initially each race organizers could have his own regulations, with of course the "formula" of the single, most impirtant event, the GP de l´ACF was automatically "the" Grand Prix formula. Only I think around 1922 or 1923 when first the Italian GP and then gradually other "National" Grands Prix came up, some need was felt for the AIACR to announce some supernational standard for this highest category of events.

I will read the thread as posted above, thanks for that.


And look for many more threads, you will probably find more answers in these:

http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1979
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1979
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981
http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1981

And probably some more I did not find.


Advertisement

#52 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:59

And this one Marcus where it is expained when the 1500/4500 formula started:

http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0

#53 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,158 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:45

As mentioned in post 46. :)

Edited by Tim Murray, 06 April 2012 - 14:45.


#54 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:28

Thanks Tim, sorry.

#55 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 23,743 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:30

I think we are finally not too far away from each other :wave:

I think the point that most people fail to grasp is that virtually every racing car of more than 750cc built in Europe between 1934 and 1939 was - within the meaning of the rules - eligible to take part in Formula races. Although nothing over 3 litres blown or 4.5 litres unblown could do so after January 1st 1938. (Being competitive or not is a whole other matter!)

I specified "more than 750cc" because the most obvious omission would be the works Austins. Then at the other end of the scale, we'd have the Alfa Bimotores, which weighed in at more than 750 kilos, the Bugattii T59/50B and - in its first incarnation - the SEFAC - about both of which perhaps the less said the better!

Other than those - and a few Shelsley specials - what else wouldn't have been eligible? Hugh Hamilton's or Raffaele Ceccini's monoposto K3s? Fane's single-seater Frazer Nash perhaps? Some Irish specials like the Adlers or the Himmelwagen?

#56 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,504 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 April 2012 - 19:25

That is exactly why I make a difference between eligible and designed for a formula. The range up to 4500 cc did include almost every car one could think of, maybe with the exception of some lorries. By the way that didn´t much change in the following years. In formula 1 events you could still find machines like there were cars like Schell´s 1100 cc Cooper (less than a fourth of the allowed capacity limit), lots of Formula 2 cars, Porsche 550 Spyder, a dirt track machine and more recently also F3000 machines. So getting back to the subject of the thread, enthusiasts or starting money collectors did have a wide range of options to bring something to the start, and the biggest hurdle was probably not so much to find a car fitting to the formula specification, but to produce a car that would be accepted and paid for by the organizers. Wasn´t one of the ERA cars fitted with "modern" bodywork after the war just for the reason to offer the organizers something that would not look too much antiquated?

But such improvisions would have been competitive only in events without "serious" contenders or maybe during some short periods of change, when not everybody was already fully prepared (for example at the beginning of the 1966 formula). Beides that in order to be competitive one had usually to produce something close to the limits of the formulas, which means that you had to take the formula rules as basic specification for your design. This is what I call "designed for the formula".

And this one Marcus where it is expained when the 1500/4500 formula started:

http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0


Yes, it is hard to get everything together when you have only more or less unspecific words like "formula" to enter it in the search function. I start to miss an index to this forum...

Edited by uechtel, 06 April 2012 - 19:34.


#57 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 5,989 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 April 2012 - 21:56

Did the 158 comply with the 85cm width limit in its original form?

#58 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,305 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 April 2012 - 21:56

An index to this forum...what a wonderful idea, although I presume the Search function is the internet equivalent of such a thing...

DCN