Jump to content


Photo

8mm movie of Australian motorsport 1970 & 1971


  • Please log in to reply
77 replies to this topic

#1 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:02

There was a short period during 1970 when I used an 8mm movie camera (of unremembered make)
in an attempt to capture, in motion, the motorsport I was already madly photographing in stills.

The camera was second hand, purchased at Camera Supply in North Sydney,
from a bloke behind the counter who'd been shooting Speedway commercially for several years.

His advice on exposure settings & other tricks were invaluable in improving my photography.
I lost track of him when I moved to Adelaide in 1973, but I am most grateful for all the advice he gave me.

My stint with movies lasted around a year, until the cost of film & processing, & the rather poor results on 8mm,
saw me abandon the idea & concentrate on stills.

To go into 16mm was prohibitive, & my spectator locations behind the fence, meant that I was
always going to have results inferior to what I wanted.

I've uploaded a couple of the clips already on "Personal" & "Catalina",
but I'll repeat the links here to keep them together.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=VCr83JIyOXU

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=MWRrLknlqR0

Here's some of the first motorsport film I ever shot....& doesn't it show!!

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=vNdTB6MjzxM

For the record, the race meetings were:
Oran Park January 3rd 1970

Catalina January 24th 1970

Edited by lyntonh, 03 April 2012 - 09:17.


Advertisement

#2 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:16

I just went snooping in my photos & found this shot of me, taken sneakily by a mate with my camera,
while I was mucking around loading the movie camera.

The date is 16th December 1969.

Posted Image

Which suggests that I have some earlier stuff somewhere.

Anyone recognise the camera?

#3 Eshe

Eshe
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:37

Lynton,

The film is great to see, thank goodness you retained it!



#4 plannerpower

plannerpower
  • Member

  • 261 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:11

Kodak?



Your films are wonderful; there's an "atmosphere" that isn't present in today's slick presentations.

#5 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 April 2012 - 13:01

I certainly don't think it was the Kodak camera in the video.

I looked up a huge list of cameras, put together on the internet by some guy with way too much time on his hands, & didn't recognise it.

I'll test your patience for "atmosphere" as I upload more clips!!

Here are some Formula Vees in practice at the Warwick Farm Tasman meeting on 14th February 1970, at Creek Corner.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=HsfhNZYMqmg

I'll be linking it on the Vee thread as well.

#6 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 April 2012 - 13:20

Niel Allen Bathurst 1970.....

Also on the Niel Allen thread

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#7 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 03 April 2012 - 16:09

I think a Bolex was the thing to have in the 1960s

#8 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,395 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 03 April 2012 - 17:53

I think a Bolex was the thing to have in the 1960s


Absolutely Bolex was the way to go!

#9 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,625 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 April 2012 - 19:28

Thanks for sharing this, I wonder if anybody has any film like this of motor races in Zambia ?

High lights were the red Viva, the exhaust on the #17 FV and seeing single seaters at Bathurst on the mountain.

#10 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 03 April 2012 - 21:32

Wonderful bits of film there, Lynton. :up: Some names to go with the Vee shots:-

Car No., Driver, Car,
9, Peter Finlay, Nota
15, Enno Buesselmann, Tripps,
17, Colin Bond, Bardahl
20, Frank Cuttell, Bono
24, Maurrie Miller, Roadrunner

How come you missed me.....I was there, [No.7] :lol:

#11 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 03 April 2012 - 22:26

There was a short period during 1970 when I used an 8mm movie camera (of unremembered make)
in an attempt to capture, in motion, the motorsport I was already madly photographing in stills.

The camera was second hand, purchased at Camera Supply in North Sydney,
from a bloke behind the counter who'd been shooting Speedway commercially for several years.

His advice on exposure settings & other tricks were invaluable in improving my photography.
I lost track of him when I moved to Adelaide in 1973, but I am most grateful for all the advice he gave me.

My stint with movies lasted around a year, until the cost of film & processing, & the rather poor results on 8mm,
saw me abandon the idea & concentrate on stills.

To go into 16mm was prohibitive, & my spectator locations behind the fence, meant that I was
always going to have results inferior to what I wanted.

I've uploaded a couple of the clips already on "Personal" & "Catalina",
but I'll repeat the links here to keep them together.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=VCr83JIyOXU

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=MWRrLknlqR0

Here's some of the first motorsport film I ever shot....& doesn't it show!!

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=vNdTB6MjzxM

For the record, the race meetings were:
Oran Park January 3rd 1970

Catalina January 24th 1970

One of the associated clips from the Oran Pk clip is new Oran town. How sad, a racetrack converted to hi density living

#12 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,728 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:13

Originally posted by arttidesco
.....Highlights were the red Viva.....


Which was running a three-litre six, I might add. Later it went out to a Chrysler 265 Hemi 6 (4.3-litres) with triple Webers.

.....the exhaust on the #17 FV and seeing single seaters at Bathurst on the mountain.


A number of people fiddled with Vee exhaust arrangements here, Ken Goodwin once wrapped (chromed) pipes everywhere around his engine and was soon copied by others. This one was a standout, however.

As for openwheelers on the Mountain, that's what it was built for!

#13 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,625 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:27

Which was running a three-litre six, I might add. Later it went out to a Chrysler 265 Hemi 6 (4.3-litres) with triple Webers.



A number of people fiddled with Vee exhaust arrangements here, Ken Goodwin once wrapped (chromed) pipes everywhere around his engine and was soon copied by others. This one was a standout, however.

As for openwheelers on the Mountain, that's what it was built for!



Thanks Ray was that a Vauxhall straight six for the Viva ? :eek:

Shouldn't that be 'stand up' for the #17 FV ? :rolleyes:

Over here in Pomeyland I've only seen tin tops in motion on the mountain, though thanks to this forum I have see stills of open wheelers on the mountain :up:

#14 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,668 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:13

Wonderful bits of film there, Lynton. :up: Some names to go with the Vee shots:-

Car No., Driver, Car,
9, Peter Finlay, Nota
15, Enno Buesselmann, Tripps,
17, Colin Bond, Bardahl
20, Frank Cuttell, Bono
24, Maurrie Miller, Roadrunner

That is the first colour shot I have seen of the MJM Roadrunner Vee. I know what colour to paint it now! Thanks for sharing Lynton.

#15 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:10

Thanks Ray was that a Vauxhall straight six for the Viva ? :eek:

Shouldn't that be 'stand up' for the #17 FV ? :rolleyes:

Over here in Pomeyland I've only seen tin tops in motion on the mountain, though thanks to this forum I have see stills of open wheelers on the mountain :up:

I would be very surprised if it was not 186 Holden powered. Vauxhall 6s are a rare beast here and even then. No performance equipment was advailable at all unlike the Holden with most things you want at the local speed shop

#16 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:20

Incidentally if any of you have any old motorsport film on 8mm ( especially 50s/60s/70s ) that you would be prepared to lend us for safe return so that we could make a DVD transfer to show at future TNF Hertfordshire film shows, i would be pleased to hear from you.

#17 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:47

Some practice scenes of Tasman cars at Creek, & Formula Fords in the esses, all 14th February 1970.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=KYEbKMBd03w

#18 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:58

Bathurst Easter 1970....Monday morning mixture

(starting with the boys cooking dinner up on the mountain on Sunday night)

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#19 wagons46

wagons46
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 04 April 2012 - 23:39


Can you explain the process of getting 8mm film onto a post ?



Advertisement

#20 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:51

Ah yes....

Well the way I've done it is as follows.

Firstly I never owned an 8mm projector until three weeks ago!

I used to borrow my brother's projector to view my films, but that stopped when he moved to Brisbane (from Adelaide) in the early nineties.

I was able to pick up a Sekonic 8 for $48 at a local second hand store by sheer chance.

It worked OK but for stretched drive belts which wouldn't run the take up spool.
That meant I had miles of film feeding out onto the table or all over the floor.

I looked up on the net for what was around, & a week later received three new belts from a bloke in Iowa for A$35 landed.

I simply project the film onto a slide screen which we've had for years & take a video of the screen.

That explains why the image is slightly tapered top to bottom...the video camera sits on a tripod just to the side & just ahead of the projector.

I have the tripod set up so that the video camera is a close as I can to level with the projector.

I use a focusing page downloaded from the net, with several fine lines & patterns on it, to give an accurate focus.

I tape the focus sheet to the screen & zoom the video up as high as possible & focus manually until I have as sharp an image as I can get.

Then I zoom back out, turn the projector on & zoom the video until I have the film image as close to the top & bottom of the wide screen video image as practicable.

The film focus varies either side of film splices sometimes, so keeping an eye on the sharpness on the screen keeps me watching as I video.

Once I have the set-up right, I shoot a video at standard definition, (AVCHD gives better image, but huge files & slow conversion),
& the 8mm quality doesn't justify the video HD.

I upload the video onto the computer, & split the scenes in PMB, a programme which came with the Sony video camera.

I leave the files as Mpeg2 & keep the file size down under 200meg.

I have opened a YouTube account, & upload the files one by one.

Once they're on there, I mark them as private (available through my links only), & cut & paste the link into the Nostalgia Forum, & Bob's your uncle.

#21 mymemoryfails

mymemoryfails
  • Member

  • 293 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:48

Ah yes....

Well the way I've done it is as follows.

Firstly I never owned an 8mm projector until three weeks ago!

I used to borrow my brother's projector to view my films, but that stopped when he moved to Brisbane (from Adelaide) in the early nineties.

I was able to pick up a Sekonic 8 for $48 at a local second hand store by sheer chance.

It worked OK but for stretched drive belts which wouldn't run the take up spool.
That meant I had miles of film feeding out onto the table or all over the floor.

I looked up on the net for what was around, & a week later received three new belts from a bloke in Iowa for A$35 landed.

I simply project the film onto a slide screen which we've had for years & take a video of the screen.


That explains why the image is slightly tapered top to bottom...the video camera sits on a tripod just to the side & just ahead of the projector.

I have the tripod set up so that the video camera is a close as I can to level with the projector.

I use a focusing page downloaded from the net, with several fine lines & patterns on it, to give an accurate focus.

I tape the focus sheet to the screen & zoom the video up as high as possible & focus manually until I have as sharp an image as I can get.

Then I zoom back out, turn the projector on & zoom the video until I have the film image as close to the top & bottom of the wide screen video image as practicable.

The film focus varies either side of film splices sometimes, so keeping an eye on the sharpness on the screen keeps me watching as I video.

Once I have the set-up right, I shoot a video at standard definition, (AVCHD gives better image, but huge files & slow conversion),
& the 8mm quality doesn't justify the video HD.

I upload the video onto the computer, & split the scenes in PMB, a programme which came with the Sony video camera.

I leave the files as Mpeg2 & keep the file size down under 200meg.

I have opened a YouTube account, & upload the files one by one.

Once they're on there, I mark them as private (available through my links only), & cut & paste the link into the Nostalgia Forum, & Bob's your uncle.


Legend! Big Big Thanks for what you go through {for others benefit) . Surely you are one of the heroes!
:clap:
mymemoryfails

Edited by mymemoryfails, 05 April 2012 - 03:49.


#22 wagons46

wagons46
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:13

cut & paste the link into the Nostalgia Forum, & Bob's your uncle.


Now all I need is the patience to do all that. I've done it that way years ago to VHS. My earliest is Warwick Farm 1969 through to Bathurst and Amaroo 76-79.

I wish I had your Uncle Bob to do it for me as I don't have one.( Uncle Bob that is. )



#23 Eshe

Eshe
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:07

Great stuff Lynton! Your effort to get these film clips on screen is much appreciated.

A method I have seen applied to capture the image is to project the Super 8 image on to a translucent frosted screen with the projector and camera on the exact same axis on opposite sides of the screen. After the film is captured on the video camera, you then digitally manipulate it in your video editing software to make a mirror image so that the viewing orientation is correct for the end product.


#24 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 April 2012 - 13:11

I've heard of the back projection method, but I'm mystified as to how you avoid a hot-spot from the projector lamp.

#25 Eshe

Eshe
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:20

I've heard of the back projection method, but I'm mystified as to how you avoid a hot-spot from the projector lamp.

In avoiding the heat issue, the size of the translucent screen dictates how far away the projector lamp will be. The example I remember had well over a metre of clear air from the projector to the screen, you make the screen to a size that suits your purpose to give the detail/quality required. If you have a piece of frosted glass or perspex handy that can be propped up in a similar fashion to project on to you will get the technique sorted pretty rapidly.

#26 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:39

I was referring to the bright spot you would get from the lamp shining straight at the video camera

#27 Eshe

Eshe
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:21

Oh - ok - I hadn't struck the issue, apologies that I misinterpreted the problem; it must have been the combination of the focal distance and opacity of the screen that meant that the bright spot wasn't an issue at the time. I recall there being a very even distribution of light across the opaque screen without issues from any angle but I haven't tried this for some time now.

#28 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:40

Improved touring practice Warwick Farm 14th February 1970

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#29 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:42

Series production practice Warwick Farm 14th February 1970

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#30 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:45

Two practice sessions Tasman cars 14th February 1970

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#31 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 6,189 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 09 April 2012 - 00:39

I posted a thanks to you earlier in this thread but it seems to have gone?

Great footage they seem a little slow to me must be the years i guess,that was my favorite spot to watch .

#32 brucemoxon

brucemoxon
  • Member

  • 599 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 09 April 2012 - 00:56

Lynton, I hope you don't mind, but I linked the Niel Allen footage on my Facebook page, mostly for the benefit of my younger friends, who had no idea that this weekend was NOT the first time single-seaters raced at Bathurst.




Bruce Moxon

#33 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:07

Lynton, I hope you don't mind, but I linked the Niel Allen footage on my Facebook page, mostly for the benefit of my younger friends, who had no idea that this weekend was NOT the first time single-seaters raced at Bathurst.




Bruce Moxon


Happy to hear it!!


#34 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:43

Vees Bathurst 1970

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#35 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:23

The main race at Easter Bathurst 1970 was the Improved Production championship round

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage



#36 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 13:48

Been a while.....so here's some more....

RAC Trophy Meeting 2nd May 1970

Some sports cars, including the ME5 & the SR4, & some open wheelers practising along Hume Straight.




#37 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:30

The main race at Easter Bathurst 1970 was the Improved Production championship round

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

Norm has some real oil surge problems there. As he straightens up a big cloud of blue smoke!

#38 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:30

Been a while.....so here's some more....

RAC Trophy Meeting 2nd May 1970

Some sports cars, including the ME5 & the SR4, & some open wheelers practising along Hume Straight.


Lynton, it says this one is private.

#39 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:31

Been a while.....so here's some more....

RAC Trophy Meeting 2nd May 1970

Some sports cars, including the ME5 & the SR4, & some open wheelers practising along Hume Straight.


Lynton, it says this one is private.

Advertisement

#40 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:46

Un-private now.....sorry

#41 planeimages

planeimages
  • New Member

  • 14 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:56

Kodak?



Your films are wonderful; there's an "atmosphere" that isn't present in today's slick presentations.


Loved the shot of my Nota Vee in the first few frames. I took 3rd in the Empi Mini-Tasman series behind Haehnle and Bond if my memory serves me correctly.

#42 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:04

Series Production Practice Warwick Farm 2nd May 1970

Creek corner & then the esses

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=04jf_d23Ph4

#43 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 01 July 2012 - 23:05

Series Production Practice Warwick Farm 2nd May 1970

Creek corner & then the esses

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=04jf_d23Ph4

Bring back true Series Production.

#44 wagons46

wagons46
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 01 July 2012 - 23:30

[quote name='Lee Nicolle
Bring back true Series Production.
[/quote]

Yes , I agree. Todays mass produced popular cars all look the same and, on paper, have similar power and handling abilities, so it would be great to see them tested to their limits on a race track. No special editions, just off the showroom floor, minimum build run say 2000. I wonder how the market leaders would perform under these conditions and perhaps a less popular model would out-perform the favourites.
I'm thinking more of the smaller class cars in this respect as they are in fact the most popular of all vehicles sold, rather than prestige or the seemingly less and less popular Falcons and Holdens.
End of thought, and back to the topic.



#45 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 02 July 2012 - 00:00

[quote name='wagons46' post='5799186' date='Jul 1 2012, 23:30'][quote name='Lee Nicolle
Bring back true Series Production.


Yes , I agree. Todays mass produced popular cars all look the same and, on paper, have similar power and handling abilities, so it would be great to see them tested to their limits on a race track. No special editions, just off the showroom floor, minimum build run say 2000. I wonder how the market leaders would perform under these conditions and perhaps a less popular model would out-perform the favourites.
I'm thinking more of the smaller class cars in this respect as they are in fact the most popular of all vehicles sold, rather than prestige or the seemingly less and less popular Falcons and Holdens.
End of thought, and back to the topic.[/quote]


The fields were more spread out in those days, with greater differences between models.
To see Doug Chivas ring a Valiants neck, or see Bob Morris eating tyres (as the film shows),
or have the Minis in a race of their own .....well, it certainly let you know which cars could do what!!

#46 wagons46

wagons46
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 02 July 2012 - 00:32

The fields were more spread out in those days, with greater differences between models.
, it certainly let you know which cars could do what!!


This is why I would like to see it with todays cars. The Top Gear TV show does it with the prestige cars which seems to excite the presenters and make an entertaining show, but apart from the celebrity lap dash car we never see the cars we buy. Perhaps it would all look too slow and too boring, but surely it would throw new light on some of the more fancied sellers.



#47 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,640 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 02 July 2012 - 03:14

[quote name='wagons46' post='5799186' date='Jul 2 2012, 00:30'][quote name='Lee Nicolle
Bring back true Series Production.


Yes , I agree. Todays mass produced popular cars all look the same and, on paper, have similar power and handling abilities, so it would be great to see them tested to their limits on a race track. No special editions, just off the showroom floor, minimum build run say 2000. I wonder how the market leaders would perform under these conditions and perhaps a less popular model would out-perform the favourites.
I'm thinking more of the smaller class cars in this respect as they are in fact the most popular of all vehicles sold, rather than prestige or the seemingly less and less popular Falcons and Holdens.
End of thought, and back to the topic.[/quote]
There is enough interesting cars of all sizes out there. And possibly manufacturers who would be interested on showcasing their product in a Motor Sport enviroment.
BUT really there is 2 or 3 fields unfortunatly. The turbo 4 wd stuff is one field, turbo kiddy car stuff another [2wd] and then the rest.
GM and Ford probably would not want to play with WRXs and EVOs. And they probably do sell the numbers that Holden sell of SS and Ford GTs. Though then Ford has the turbo!
Racing for normally aspirated 2wd family cars? But then the new Ford V8 is supercharged!
And the smaller cars can run into the same problems.
But it could still be fun and inexpensive with standard cars with free brake material, and springs and shocks.On [buffed?] normal road tyres. No R spedc stuff. And standard type 6 point bolt in rollcage with intrusion bars. Oh and a race seat and belts.

#48 275 GTB-4

275 GTB-4
  • Member

  • 6,806 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:17

or have the Minis in a race of their own .....well, it certainly let you know which cars could do what!!


Now ya talking!! :lol: :love:

#49 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,728 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:21

Really nice shots of Niel Allen in the ME5 and Matich in the SR4 in there...

Did you not ever join us on Point M, Lynton?

#50 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 790 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 July 2012 - 00:49

Really nice shots of Niel Allen in the ME5 and Matich in the SR4 in there...

Did you not ever join us on Point M, Lynton?


No.....I was stuck on the other side of the wire-strand fence....