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Stanley Mann wins on appeal


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#1 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:52

Some of you will be aware of the case brought against Bentley dealer and racer Stanley Mann last year. Stanley has taken the ruling to the Court of Appeal and has won his case. Stanley's lawyer stated "This is a landmark ruling, which also states that the identity of a car is derived from the chassis, even if only part of it remains, if it retains the chassis number" Discuss.
http://wilmotslitigation.com/#/news

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#2 garyfrogeye

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:05

My car has a little bit of racing histor but doesn't have a chassis, it's has a monocoque and a seperate chassis plate/vin number. So if a little bit was cut out and rewelded onto (let's say) an imported californian shell, which car has the racing history?

#3 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:19

Previously discussed here:

Judge rules 1930s Bentley is not a fake...

It's also interesting to reread the discussion on the original judgement:

Bentley - not strictly for TNF, but very interesting reading

#4 Pullman99

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:12

"This is a landmark ruling, which also states that the identity of a car is derived from the chassis, even if only part of it remains, if it retains the chassis number" Discuss.


We've been here before...several times!

If you replace all the parts.....

The ship of Theseus

On another landmark Bentley case...whatever did become of Ed Hubbard?

Fascinating stuff all round and, as rightly pointed out by others, worrying too.


#5 arttidesco

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:27

With the Old No 1 precedent I suppose it was hard for the judge to come to any other decision.

#6 D-Type

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 15:16

Each case is different and it isn't possible to have "One size fits all" rules. In this case I think the main point of contention was the engine, ie had Stanley Mann described it as "a Speed Six engine" or "a 6.5 litre engine uprated to Speed Six specification"

#7 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 18:26

On another landmark Bentley case...whatever did become of Ed Hubbard?

Fascinating stuff all round and, as rightly pointed out by others, worrying too.


Ed Hubbard died about 10 years ago - apparently luckily for a Bentley restorer who's company he'd invested in who ended up with a (large) free loan!

#8 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 20:03

Previously discussed here:

Judge rules 1930s Bentley is not a fake...

Sorry, Tim. How did I miss that??

#9 Pullman99

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:12

Ed Hubbard died about 10 years ago - apparently luckily for a Bentley restorer who's company he'd invested in who ended up with a (large) free loan!


Thanks Peter; I'd forgotten that. The waves from these somewhat murky waters are seemingly still lapping the shores of the old car world!

#10 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:42

Thanks Peter; I'd forgotten that. The waves from these somewhat murky waters are seemingly still lapping the shores of the old car world!

Yes, moreover you probably wouldn't be able to use a collection of old cars as collateral for a loan from Lloyds-TSB (or at least the part that was né Trustee Savings Bank) nowadays.

#11 Peter Morley

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:42

Yes, moreover you probably wouldn't be able to use a collection of old cars as collateral for a loan from Lloyds-TSB (or at least the part that was né Trustee Savings Bank) nowadays.


True enough, but given how much more money the bankers have lost on trailer parks, shares and other things that they consider to be of value you'd have thought that at least one of them would see the sense in investing in assets that have an actual value.

I keep wondering what people like Credit Suisse are doing advertising in the classic car magazines, I doubt that any of them are really interested in lending money or selling insurance to the regular impoverished classic car owner.

#12 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 13:30

True enough, but given how much more money the bankers have lost on trailer parks, shares and other things that they consider to be of value you'd have thought that at least one of them would see the sense in investing in assets that have an actual value.

Without wishing to derail this thread further, the cars the TSB were shown as security for the loan were all priced and someone (allegedly) just added the prices up, whether they were realistic at the time or not. IIRC prices were on the way down at the time as well, but since the man concerned and the dosh were by then somewhere else, I expect it taught that bank the lesson I alluded to.


#13 Sharman

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 15:29

I must have missed the TSB reference, I had a connection with them in the late 70s, I saw them from the "inside" and could not believe how unsophisticated they were, both from a personnel point of view and from a financial standpoint. My comment was that somebody was going to take them for a lot of money one day. Can anybody give me chapter and verse?

#14 David McKinney

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 15:53

I keep wondering what people like Credit Suisse are doing advertising in the classic car magazines, I doubt that any of them are really interested in lending money or selling insurance to the regular impoverished classic car owner.

I think you're right. But I imagine they see their market as the irregular non-impoverished owners, and do business with them


#15 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 16:52

I must have missed the TSB reference, I had a connection with them in the late 70s, I saw them from the "inside" and could not believe how unsophisticated they were, both from a personnel point of view and from a financial standpoint. My comment was that somebody was going to take them for a lot of money one day. Can anybody give me chapter and verse?

PM sent as I think I've written enough in public.

#16 john aston

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 17:27

The real tragedy for those of us who love cars but cannot quite run to affording our dream machines is that the main issue in this case is how much the provenance is worth. Strange world where the sainted Steve McQueen's overalls fetch several more times than my house is worth - doubtless to be worn ,suitably regusseted , by some Pebble Beach warrior. I have Hannu Mikkola's tax disc holder from an RAC Rally Escort (don't ask ) - can I sell it and buy an F458 Italia ?

#17 packapoo

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:20

The real tragedy for those of us who love cars but cannot quite run to affording our dream machines is that the main issue in this case is how much the provenance is worth. Strange world where the sainted Steve McQueen's overalls fetch several more times than my house is worth - doubtless to be worn ,suitably regusseted , by some Pebble Beach warrior. I have Hannu Mikkola's tax disc holder from an RAC Rally Escort (don't ask ) - can I sell it and buy an F458 Italia ?


Hell John, I can do better then that. I've an F458 just about cobbled together out back in my shed. How about a straight swap? I won't ask how you came by yours, that way I won't have to explain either.