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Fast cars at Bathurst...


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#1 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:51

I read with interest that Formula 3 cars have been allowed to race at Bathurst ( http://www.speedcafe...s-skinner-wins/ ).
I don't know if any special restrictions were applied to the cars.

Apparently they have lapped around 2-4 seconds faster than the v8 supercars, doing similar lap times to the top GT3 class cars which were also faster than v8 supercars.

Additionally Sports Sedans ( a type of unrestricted saloon class, think huge v8, superwide tyres and massive wings with a fiberglass body ) have been allowed to race at the venue after a 15 year absence, although I don't think they ended up going quicker than v8 supercar lap times.

I don't think there have been any safety upgrades, but could this relaxation of speed restrictions on the circuit open the way for classes such as DTM to fly out to race at the venue?

Edit: lap record @ 2:04.6 by Gilmour in an F3

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 April 2012 - 03:59.


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#2 packapoo

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:18

Well there you go then.

The super-taxis despite all the hype and associated B/S aren't the last word in racing 'round the mountain after all!

#3 Jaybools

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:02

Thank god, about time we got some more racing up there. Such a wasted track on the boganmobiles.

#4 KOMORI

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:22



That's the link to the video of Chris's lap if anyone's interested...

I reckon that the new COTF formula in the V8 Supercars could see them a LOT faster around all the circuits... less weight, better distribution of weight, bigger rubber, better suspension and similar HP levels... Should be interesting :)

#5 Faupa

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:51

I read with interest that Formula 3 cars have been allowed to race at Bathurst ( http://www.speedcafe...s-skinner-wins/ ).
I don't know if any special restrictions were applied to the cars.

Apparently they have lapped around 2-4 seconds faster than the v8 supercars, doing similar lap times to the top GT3 class cars which were also faster than v8 supercars.

Additionally Sports Sedans ( a type of unrestricted saloon class, think huge v8, superwide tyres and massive wings with a fiberglass body ) have been allowed to race at the venue after a 15 year absence, although I don't think they ended up going quicker than v8 supercar lap times.

I don't think there have been any safety upgrades, but could this relaxation of speed restrictions on the circuit open the way for classes such as DTM to fly out to race at the venue?

Edit: lap record @ 2:04.6 by Gilmour in an F3


I hope this is the case ( that DTM could race at Bathurst). I find the parochial attitude toward V8 Supercars depressing. In one motorsport magazine a columnist described DTM cars as "as boring as batsh*t". Obviously this person has never seen a DTM race live. The racing ( which has MORE than two marques) is tough, tactical with much passing , huge amounts of grip which makes late passing phenomenal.

Will it ever happen at Bathurst, probably not (Whats in it for DTM?) but one may dream

#6 mursuka80

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:58

DTM and lots of passing dont belong in same sentence.

#7 KOMORI

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:03

Would DTM cars be quicker round Bathurst? Serious question... What are the specs of DTM racers, power vs weight vs tire size etc? Obviously they've got the aero package to be pretty sharp over the mountain, and Chris's lap proves that good grip and handling equate to a quick time around there (iirc his top speed was around 240-250 down conrod with a high mileage donk too vs 300 ish for V8s).

I'd love to see some more racing at what is one of the best tracks in the world :)

#8 MatsNorway

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:40

Im fairly sure a DTM car would destroy a V8 supercar around bathurst.



#9 pingu666

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 16:41

if they put safer barriers through the mountain section, then you would have a much higher level of safety through that section, the other parts might be harder to upgrade :/

#10 Dunder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 16:55

Im fairly sure a DTM car would destroy a V8 supercar around bathurst.


It would be very close, I think.
At a more 'twisty' circuit, the DTM would have an advantage but at Bathurst I am far from sure.


#11 Alfisti

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 17:40

I find the parochial attitude toward V8 Supercars depressing. In one motorsport magazine a columnist described DTM cars as "as boring as batsh*t".


i find the constant bagging of the series by know nothing wannabe elites just as annoying. There's not a series ON THE ****ing PLANET that is based on production racing with a large mix or marques that has survived cos it ends in a spending fight along with constant nobbling of the faster cars to keep things interesting.

Saying DTM has passing is laughable, the series is under constant attack for the lack of passing.

#12 Rikhart

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 19:12

That circuit is insane!

#13 pingu666

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 20:45

continental tyre series, the grand am support series ?



#14 Snic

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 21:35

What are the reasons for V8 supercar races having more passes than DTM?

Edited by Snic, 09 April 2012 - 21:35.


#15 pingu666

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 22:07

less aero i guess, tbh the random aussie v8 races ive watched havent had much passing, same for dtm.

aus v8s might have poor brakes, and they run alot of camber which doesnt help with braking...

#16 KOMORI

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 00:43

They've got awesome stoppers... But very little rubber given the horsepower and weight (650+bhp/1350kgs but I'm not sure of weight). They're definately NOT easy to drive, lack of relative grip and not a lot of DF means they need to be wrestled and finessed at the same time...

#17 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:16

Im fairly sure a DTM car would destroy a V8 supercar around bathurst.


Not sure a DTM car would "destroy" a V8 anywhere.

#18 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:19

if they put safer barriers through the mountain section, then you would have a much higher level of safety through that section, the other parts might be harder to upgrade :/


Not sold on safer barriers on road circuits. I believe that they are very good for contact like that commonly found on ovals - glancing blows, rather than front on contact.

Plus, the road up there is already narrow - adding safer barriers will just make it even tighter.

Also, it is a public road - would the saferbarriers need to be removed and installed for each race meeting?

#19 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:24

I hope this is the case ( that DTM could race at Bathurst). I find the parochial attitude toward V8 Supercars depressing. In one motorsport magazine a columnist described DTM cars as "as boring as batsh*t". Obviously this person has never seen a DTM race live. The racing ( which has MORE than two marques) is tough, tactical with much passing , huge amounts of grip which makes late passing phenomenal.

Will it ever happen at Bathurst, probably not (Whats in it for DTM?) but one may dream


There will be at least 3 manufacturers at Bathurst next year - Nissan will be represented by the Kelly racing team (4 cars IIRC).

The 2013 CotF rules allow for multi-valve v8s - so Nissan will probably use one of their own motors, rather than a Ford or Chevy ohv engine, or the optional "control" engine.

Other marques are rumoured to be interested in V8s - but nothing has been confirmed.

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#20 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:25

Not sure a DTM car would "destroy" a V8 anywhere.

Well, we know a Ferrari 458 GT3 can do a 2:04.9 versus a 2:06.8 for a V8. There must be a comparison of the speed of the Fezza to a DTM out there somewhere. :)

#21 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:27

Additionally Sports Sedans ( a type of unrestricted saloon class, think huge v8, superwide tyres and massive wings with a fiberglass body ) have been allowed to race at the venue after a 15 year absence, although I don't think they ended up going quicker than v8 supercar lap times.


IIRC, the Sports Sedans were a lot faster going up Mountain Straight, but somehow slower coming down Conrod. And their lap times were slower - which doesn't make sense.

I guess the Sports Sedans would have much more potential if developed by the likes of FPV, HRT and Triple8.


What Bathurst really needs is a 24 hour GT1 race!


#22 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:28

I read with interest that Formula 3 cars have been allowed to race at Bathurst ( http://www.speedcafe...s-skinner-wins/ ).
I don't know if any special restrictions were applied to the cars.

Apparently they have lapped around 2-4 seconds faster than the v8 supercars, doing similar lap times to the top GT3 class cars which were also faster than v8 supercars.


Not surprising.

F3 cars are faster around Phillip Island, Eastern Creek - and even, IIRC, Symmons Plains - which is basically two drag strips connected at each end by a cople of corners.


#23 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:36

Well, we know a Ferrari 458 GT3 can do a 2:04.9 versus a 2:06.8 for a V8. There must be a comparison of the speed of the Fezza to a DTM out there somewhere. :)


I think it i smuch the same as the V8 - ie, slightly slower.

#24 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:08

Having trouble finding comparitive lap times for GT3 and DTM.

#25 Dan333SP

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:21

I just had a little look for you... in 2011 Timo Scheider did a 1:31.718 during practice (pole was a tenth slower) for the Zandvoort DTM race in an Audi A4 DTM. Later in 2011 the FIA GT3 European championship came to the same track, pole was set by another Audi, an R8 LMS at 1:38.920. I'd have to double check on the weather conditions, but it would appear that the DTM cars are actually a great deal faster than a GT3 machine, which is itself faster than a V8 supercar.

#26 evo

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:43

i did a simple comparison on a board i don't remember comparing SuperGT v DTM v V8s using A1GP as a benchmark a few years ago, but it basically went along the lines of SuperGT > DTM > V8s, with some tracks throwing a couple of interesting results.

Presumably if each series' cars improved by the same percentage, the pace differential would be similar.

#27 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:18

http://www.circuit-z...rt/lap_records/

Shows DTM lap record as 1m34.785.

The only GT3 I could find was "Belcar GT3" - Caterham C21, 1m53.573.

#28 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:20

I just had a little look for you... in 2011 Timo Scheider did a 1:31.718 during practice (pole was a tenth slower) for the Zandvoort DTM race in an Audi A4 DTM. Later in 2011 the FIA GT3 European championship came to the same track, pole was set by another Audi, an R8 LMS at 1:38.920. I'd have to double check on the weather conditions, but it would appear that the DTM cars are actually a great deal faster than a GT3 machine, which is itself faster than a V8 supercar.


The 458GT3 lap record of Bathurst was, apparently, some 4s faster than the previous record set by an Audi R8, putting the R8 slower than the V8s.

#29 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:25

I just had a little look for you... in 2011 Timo Scheider did a 1:31.718 during practice (pole was a tenth slower) for the Zandvoort DTM race in an Audi A4 DTM. Later in 2011 the FIA GT3 European championship came to the same track, pole was set by another Audi, an R8 LMS at 1:38.920. I'd have to double check on the weather conditions, but it would appear that the DTM cars are actually a great deal faster than a GT3 machine, which is itself faster than a V8 supercar.


http://gt3europe.com...sion=Qualifying 1

#30 Dan333SP

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:37

http://gt3europe.com...sion=Qualifying 1

Not sure why you linked me the entry list...
http://gt3europe.com.....=Qualifying 2
That's qualifying. Also, not sure what Audi or Ferrari GT3 cars were running at Bathurst, but the ones in the European championship represented by these times are as fast as any in the world, and the R8 and 458 are pretty much dead even with each other, along with the rest of the class.
As for the DTM lap record you saw for Zandvoort, that is either a race lap record or an older web page.
http://www.dtm.com/e...2011-05-15d.pdf
That's the grid from DTM at Zandvoort 2011, clearly faster. In fact, in the 3rd segment of qualifying, Jamie Green did a 1:30.8, a full 8 seconds quicker than the best GT3 car on a track a fair bit shorter than Bathurst.

Further examples-
Oschersleben 2011
Bruno Spengler 1:21.801 in Q3 for DTM
Oschersleben 2009 FIA GT3
Aston DBRS9 on pole at 1:28.991.
Different years, yes, but same track config. GT3 cars have not gotten significantly faster since then, so they are still 7+ seconds off the pace there too.

Anyway, it should be obvious that DTM cars are actually a good deal faster than GT3s. I recall reading driver's comments that stated that DTM cars were on par with the former GT1 class (the "2nd era" with Corvettes and 550s, not the 911GT1s and Merc CLK LMs), and the only faster "production based" road course cars in the world were the Japanese GT500 machines.

Edited by Dan333SP, 10 April 2012 - 04:57.


#31 Wuzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:06

The link I posted was qualifying 1 for that event. The lap record shown on the Zandvoort page is a lap record - as in it was posted during a race, not qualifying or practice. For teh Record, the V8s times of 2m6s odd are also practice/qualifying records, the actual race record is 2m8s or so. The 458GT3 record was also set in practice.

And yes, it does appear that the DTM cars are significantly faster than the GT3 cars, and thus should be much faster than the V8s.

The V8s haven't really got any faster for several years.

#32 Sardukar

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:33

V8 supercars are very slow, but its also what makes them awesome to watch. Seriously difficult cars to drive which means alot of passing and action. Putting safer barriers around the top of the mountain wouldn't be an option as it would probably cause cars to come back across the track.

#33 wonk123

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:36

It was actually a really good weekend, It is always cool when there aren't too many spectators, I just stayed in the car with race radio on, drove up to the top and watched, then back down and parked on one of the banks near caltex chase, time to go see some friends in the pits, drive down there too!!

Very cruisy atmosphere. I might build a club car for next year. I think my mate payed $1150 for about 2 hours of racing, which I think is good, because in the past you needed to spend mega bucks to be able to race here.

#34 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:16

I guess the Sports Sedans would have much more potential if developed by the likes of FPV, HRT and Triple8.


You would be looking at a situation like Group B rally, Super Tourers, Group A touring cars etc.

#35 ClubmanGT

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:42

You would be looking at a situation like Group B rally, Super Tourers, Group A touring cars etc.


All far more spectacular than the line astern rubbish we've been seeing for the last decade.

#36 GhostR

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:45



That's the link to the video of Chris's lap if anyone's interested...

I reckon that the new COTF formula in the V8 Supercars could see them a LOT faster around all the circuits... less weight, better distribution of weight, bigger rubber, better suspension and similar HP levels... Should be interesting :)

Point of interest for me with that on board is that he didn't go wide around the most dippy part of the dipper. Watching it again, he's not even taken a late apex - just dived straight into it, flowing through the corners. Has the dipper been flattened out a bit in recent years? Or are formula cars getting so planted these days that they just don't care about the sharp elevation drop in that corner anymore?

Edited by GhostR, 10 April 2012 - 10:47.


#37 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:16

All far more spectacular than the line astern rubbish we've been seeing for the last decade.


And all destroyed by overspending

#38 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:21

Not sold on safer barriers on road circuits. I believe that they are very good for contact like that commonly found on ovals - glancing blows, rather than front on contact.

Plus, the road up there is already narrow - adding safer barriers will just make it even tighter.

Also, it is a public road - would the saferbarriers need to be removed and installed for each race meeting?


Did he mean SAFER barriers or barriers that are more safe? ;)

#39 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:26

I hope this is the case ( that DTM could race at Bathurst). I find the parochial attitude toward V8 Supercars depressing. In one motorsport magazine a columnist described DTM cars as "as boring as batsh*t". Obviously this person has never seen a DTM race live. The racing ( which has MORE than two marques) is tough, tactical with much passing , huge amounts of grip which makes late passing phenomenal.

Will it ever happen at Bathurst, probably not (Whats in it for DTM?) but one may dream


I have rarely seen anyone describe DTM as exciting. Impressive maybe, but not particularly exciting. Of course, DTM has had 2 manufacturers for years, and now they have a grand total of 3. V8s will have 3 soon too, so that's a pretty weak argument.

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#40 BRG

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:48

As a comparison, DTM and F3 lap records at Hockenheim are 1.33.576 and 1.33.156 respectively - that is, not a lot between them. So DTM should be faster round Bathurst than V8s.

#41 bt46

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 13:03

V8 supercars are very slow, but its also what makes them awesome to watch. Seriously difficult cars to drive which means alot of passing and action. Putting safer barriers around the top of the mountain wouldn't be an option as it would probably cause cars to come back across the track.


I'm sorry. I don't really like the V8 "safteycars" but to say they are slow is just plain wrong. Look at there lap times around any of Australia's circuts and compare them. I would also argue they are difficult to drive. They are unique....yes. Difficult? No more than any thing else.

#42 Sardukar

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 15:08

I'm sorry. I don't really like the V8 "safteycars" but to say they are slow is just plain wrong. Look at there lap times around any of Australia's circuts and compare them. I would also argue they are difficult to drive. They are unique....yes. Difficult? No more than any thing else.


ive spoken to SVG and scott mclaughlin myself, and they both told me they are really hard to drive. They use spooldiffs that suck cuz they lock heaps. The cars weigh ALOT and use tires with too small of a profile for the weight and power the cars generate. They rely heaps on brake bias to get the car to turn in then the diff to get the car out of the corner, this is completely different to how DTM or WTCC cars drive! So v8 supercars are very slow at breaking and apex speed but their acceleration is very good. Overall though they are very slow. They are much slower than GT3 or any lower category open wheel formula like F3 or star mazda etc.

#43 krapmeister

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 15:46

Didn't JV say that they had too much grip for the power they've got?

#44 Alfisti

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 17:49

And all destroyed by overspending


Everyone just conveniently forgets this, GT racing is near dead worldwide cos it costs way, way too much.

#45 DS27

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 18:33

I wouldn't call the V8's slow, but everything is relative of course. Personally, who cares as long as the racing is great to watch, which it usually is. When you are watching on tv, can you really tell if a car is cornering at 90mph, or 85mph, or for that matter 70mph - basically no. As long as the car is on the limit.

I would watch it over DTM any day - but a DTM car would be much quicker surely. They must weigh significantly less and have a lot of aero / downforce; they are highly developed compared to most other series. Dull these days though - I pretty much stopped watching when BMW pullde out.

#46 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:36

Didn't JV say that they had too much grip for the power they've got?

Yup, compared to a NASCAR.

#47 Wuzak

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:02

I wouldn't call the V8's slow, but everything is relative of course. Personally, who cares as long as the racing is great to watch, which it usually is. When you are watching on tv, can you really tell if a car is cornering at 90mph, or 85mph, or for that matter 70mph - basically no. As long as the car is on the limit.

I would watch it over DTM any day - but a DTM car would be much quicker surely. They must weigh significantly less and have a lot of aero / downforce; they are highly developed compared to most other series. Dull these days though - I pretty much stopped watching when BMW pullde out.


At some events V8s have a soft tyre option - one set per weekend, IIRC. Those tyres can improve lap times as much as 3s, depending on circuit. Of course they don't last that well.

#48 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:13

At some events V8s have a soft tyre option - one set per weekend, IIRC. Those tyres can improve lap times as much as 3s, depending on circuit. Of course they don't last that well.

That's a good point.
Also the front and rear tyres are the same, like a NASCAR, which can't be good for handling either. Supposedly there is very little lateral grip?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 11 April 2012 - 06:15.


#49 pingu666

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 17:26

for the safer barriers my idea is to dig out more of the mountain, then put in the concrete wall, then safer barrier, so the track remains the same width, but you got that soft wall. and safer barriers dont really spring back anything like a tyre or foam barrier, its better than a tyre wall if your going to slide along the wall, tyre walls tend to grab and spin the car.

but have some tyre walls in the right places ofcourse

#50 Wuzak

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 21:43

That's a good point.
Also the front and rear tyres are the same, like a NASCAR, which can't be good for handling either. Supposedly there is very little lateral grip?


Yes, forgot about that.

One of the tricks used in the first season with the softs was to swap the working side front with the less loaded rear.