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Latest Qualifying & Race Pace Pecking Order


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#51 RealRacing

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 15:47

The thing is that, tyres having become the protagonist of F1 this season, the pecking order will probably vary from circuit to circuit, depending on temperature, abrasiveness, layout, cars´use of them, etc., etc. This sucks and it is another subject, but from what it's worth>

Mercedes will have an edge in qualy in circuits with long straights and, depending on the mood of the tyres for a certain temperature and the finesse they have to adapt to them, may or may not be able to fight for top spot.

McLaren seem to have the best allround package and IMO if they qualify on top, will be hard to catch during race.

RBR a question mark until they sort the exhaust thing, but in general, better race pace than qualy.

Lotus also very difficult to say. The car seems nervous, especially the back and not very prone for "tyre management", so suffers in the race.

Sauber> deja vu from last year re tyres. The mandatory use of compounds continues to screw them as they try to achieve the impossible with the softer compounds but in the end the delayed pit stops just makes them lose time vs the rest of the field.

Williams> better in qualy than race.

Ferrari> I don't think they are as bad as ALonso wants us to believe. At the end of the day, Maldonado and Perez were champion and vicechampion of GP2 respectively, similar to a certain Lewis Hamilton, who beat Alonso in 2007, so the argument of Williams and Sauber being under driven and Ferrari over driven is not that clear. I think Ferrari might be par with them depending on the circumstances.

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#52 velgajski1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 16:36

For Alonso fans:
1. McLaren (both drivers performed fairly badly, didn't get maximum of car)
2. RBR (Vettel showed how bad he is in not best car)
3. Mercedes
4. Lotus
5. Sauber
6. Williams
7. Force India
8. Ferrari

For rest:
1. McLaren (most constant pace, best quali pace)
2. RBR/Mercedes/Lotus/Ferrari/Sauber (Ferrari and Sauber placed here because great pace in mixed conditions and not being far off in dry, all 5 teams extremely close)
7. Williams
8. Force India
....

Edited by velgajski1, 16 April 2012 - 16:38.


#53 robefc

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 17:11

Just in case we needed any confirmation that tyres are the dominant factor, this is what mr horner had to say

The grid has concertinaed. If you look at all the different configurations of car that were in the top 10 yesterday, there was no way that they were within 3% of downforce configuration, yet they were within 3% of lap time. The biggest common dominator within all of that is getting the tyres to work.”


http://adamcooperf1....g-championship/

#54 Nustang70

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 18:32

:confused: Ferrari was quicker than Williams in the race, and the Sauber.i know finishing position didn't show that, but Maldonado was quite clearly holding up Fernando at the end, and I didn't see a Williams/Sauber hounding Raikkonen,Webber most of the race, then a McLaren.


Alonso also had fresher tires at the end of the race.


For race pace, I guess I'd say:

Mclaren
Red Bull/Lotus
Mercedes
Williams/Sauber/Ferrari

#55 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:46

For Alonso fans:
1. McLaren (both drivers performed fairly badly, didn't get maximum of car)
2. RBR (Vettel showed how bad he is in not best car)
.
.
.
.
.
8. Ferrari

For rest:

2. RBR/Mercedes/Lotus/Ferrari/Sauber (Ferrari and Sauber placed here because great pace in mixed conditions and not being far off in dry, all 5 teams extremely close)


:well:

:)




:rotfl:


 ;)

Hehe...I suppose Bahrain's circuit configuration and it's desert heat is going to be painful for members of The Nando Fan Club.

The Ferrari is going to stink like shit there. Worse than all that camel dung in the parking lot! :cool:

Poor Felipe' will drive out of his skin (being a Sakhir Specialist/ex-double winner) only to finish ... 17th!

:cry: / :lol:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 17 April 2012 - 04:27.


#56 Jaybools

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:58

Mercedes
McLaren
Lotus=Sauber
RB
Ferrari
the rest..


Race:

Mclaren
Red bull
Sauber=Mercedes and Lotus VERY close
Ferrari


#57 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:57

The thing is that, tyres having become the protagonist of F1 this season, the pecking order will probably vary from circuit to circuit, depending on temperature, abrasiveness, layout, cars´use of them, etc., etc. This sucks and it is another subject, but from what it's worth>

NASCAR teams deal with after all. Earnhardt Jr has found peace (if disappointment) with being consistently not able to win any more with COT while his team-mates can, even.

#58 muttyx

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:51

Ferrari> I don't think they are as bad as ALonso wants us to believe. At the end of the day, Maldonado and Perez were champion and vicechampion of GP2 respectively, similar to a certain Lewis Hamilton, who beat Alonso in 2007, so the argument of Williams and Sauber being under driven and Ferrari over driven is not that clear. I think Ferrari might be par with them depending on the circumstances.


So its not clear that Alonso is far superior to Pastor Maldonado and Perez? A couple of world titles and 28 wins don't count for much around here obviously.

I think the middle group is quite close although ferrari are behind Sauber and Williams.

Lotus might actually have the best car, Ive suspected it for ages, if its showing so much speed with a rookie and rusty Kimi.

Edited by muttyx, 17 April 2012 - 07:51.


#59 RealRacing

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:33

So its not clear that Alonso is far superior to Pastor Maldonado and Perez? A couple of world titles and 28 wins don't count for much around here obviously.

I think the middle group is quite close although ferrari are behind Sauber and Williams.

Lotus might actually have the best car, Ive suspected it for ages, if its showing so much speed with a rookie and rusty Kimi.


I think, on one hand, that in general these drivers are much closer than fans of this or that driver want to believe or make others believe. Having said that, there are drivers that are definitely better than others. However, if we consider that a F1 rookie who had been GP2 champion the previous year, managed to beat FA, so could others who were also GP2 champion and vicechampion respectively. My point is that, unfairly, in the case of Ferrari some people give all the credit to the driver and in the case of Sauber and Williams to the car. I think Perez and Maldonado are no slouches and their result in Gp2 proves it, so the truth must be somewhere in between.

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#60 TestaRossa

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 00:05

Considering Kimi was blatantly being held by Button and Perez held by Hamilton, I would say Lotus and Sauber are no worse than Mclaren on race pace.

Kimi and Perez would eventually finish out of points but that was due to poor strategy.

First stint gave the best picture because they all were under equal conditions: used softs from Q3. After first stint, Perez was told to stick too long for a 2 stopper and that damaged his race. Same for Kimi.

Mercedes had the best race pace in China but, imho, that was due to track suiting them.

Bahrain is a twisty circuit, though, and I expect Mclaren to be the best there.

#61 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:44

China only throws up more confusion than anything else. Whoever had superior race pace but bad qualifying pace again got stuck in traffic. But what is traffic here? Its the traffic of Lotus, Ferrari, Sauber, Williams, etc etc. Impossible to evaluate and justify.

#62 muttyx

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:32

I think, on one hand, that in general these drivers are much closer than fans of this or that driver want to believe or make others believe. Having said that, there are drivers that are definitely better than others. However, if we consider that a F1 rookie who had been GP2 champion the previous year, managed to beat FA, so could others who were also GP2 champion and vicechampion respectively. My point is that, unfairly, in the case of Ferrari some people give all the credit to the driver and in the case of Sauber and Williams to the car. I think Perez and Maldonado are no slouches and their result in Gp2 proves it, so the truth must be somewhere in between.



There is no correlation between Gp2/F3000 and F1 success, infact most of them fail in F1. Kovalainen was runner up and crushed by Hamilton. Luizzi a dominant F3000 champ failed, like Boudairis, Glock is driving for the worst team in F1, and Hulkenburg and Maldonado, were both beaten by a retiring Barrichello, and Perez has hardly dominated his Kobayashi. Im pretty sure the Ferrari is worse than most imagine.

#63 Nustang70

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:55

There is no correlation between Gp2/F3000 and F1 success, infact most of them fail in F1. Kovalainen was runner up and crushed by Hamilton. Luizzi a dominant F3000 champ failed, like Boudairis, Glock is driving for the worst team in F1, and Hulkenburg and Maldonado, were both beaten by a retiring Barrichello, and Perez has hardly dominated his Kobayashi. Im pretty sure the Ferrari is worse than most imagine.


Hamilton? Rosberg? 8 out of the 10 GP2 drivers with the most wins have made it to F1. 5 out of the 7 GP2 champions are current F1 pilots. It depends on how to define success. You are judging Kovalainen on his first two season but not his latest two, and Hulkenberg and Maldonado (and Perez, mostly) each on their rookie season. You're assessment of Glock doesn't make any sense--he's in a shit team, but he has a paying, stable drive.

Edited by Nustang70, 18 April 2012 - 06:55.


#64 muttyx

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:07

Hamilton? Rosberg? 8 out of the 10 GP2 drivers with the most wins have made it to F1. 5 out of the 7 GP2 champions are current F1 pilots. It depends on how to define success. You are judging Kovalainen on his first two season but not his latest two, and Hulkenberg and Maldonado (and Perez, mostly) each on their rookie season. You're assessment of Glock doesn't make any sense--he's in a shit team, but he has a paying, stable drive.


Success is pretty easy to define, wins or at least a drive in a top team, and beating team mates, rather than just filling up a seat which many mediocre drivers can manage. Kovalainen is judged when he had his chance against a top driver, not when he is racing against a pensioner Trulli or Russian pay driver, when its easy to gain the perception of being a very good driver.

#65 scheivlak

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:38

Kovalainen was runner up and crushed by Hamilton.

A GP2 champion  ;)

#66 velgajski1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:03

I think, on one hand, that in general these drivers are much closer than fans of this or that driver want to believe or make others believe. Having said that, there are drivers that are definitely better than others. However, if we consider that a F1 rookie who had been GP2 champion the previous year, managed to beat FA, so could others who were also GP2 champion and vicechampion respectively. My point is that, unfairly, in the case of Ferrari some people give all the credit to the driver and in the case of Sauber and Williams to the car. I think Perez and Maldonado are no slouches and their result in Gp2 proves it, so the truth must be somewhere in between.


This basically.

People claim that Alonso is by default faster than Perez and Maldonado - but they didn't even have the chance to prove themselves. Using same logic, you could say that Schumacher is fastest overall, because he has most wins and titles. And since Rosberg is beating him in same team, it means Rosberg is currently best driver on grid.

This is simply applying same logic as '2xWDC and 28 wins > Perez and Maldonado'.

#67 velgajski1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:09

China only throws up more confusion than anything else. Whoever had superior race pace but bad qualifying pace again got stuck in traffic. But what is traffic here? Its the traffic of Lotus, Ferrari, Sauber, Williams, etc etc. Impossible to evaluate and justify.


All cars are so close that small changes like track conditions and setup do seemingly huge mixing of order as we saw in Malaysia. Or if you manage to work tyres right like Mercedes did in China, but got totally wrong before then you get freak stuff like Mercedes being proclaimed as one of the slowest cars in race pace after Malaysia, only to show best race pace in China.

This season is very interesting, and I wouldn't discount another possible 'virgin' win - Perez/Maldonado/Grosjean all have cars which can win with a bit of luck.

However, I do think that as season progresses and teams figure out the way to work these tyres, things will become more clearer and some kind of 'order' will be established, probably with McLaren, RBR and Ferrari being strongest cars on grid.

Edited by velgajski1, 18 April 2012 - 08:12.


#68 ivand911

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:12

If I read the thread title right Mercedes is current leader both in Q and race. Simple. McL follows. After them RBR, Sauber =Lotus= Williams, Alonso.

Edited by ivand911, 18 April 2012 - 08:12.


#69 flyer121

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:24

Qualy
1> McLaren
2> Merc (Things could have changed now but I m sceptical)
3> Lotus
4> RBR
5> Sauber / Williams

Race
1> McLaren
2> Merc
3> Sauber
4> RBR
5> Lotus

Best package seems to be McLaren but since Merc are at their backs , they will have to avoid mistakes to clinch the titles this year ...

#70 muttyx

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:26

This basically.

People claim that Alonso is by default faster than Perez and Maldonado - but they didn't even have the chance to prove themselves. Using same logic, you could say that Schumacher is fastest overall, because he has most wins and titles. And since Rosberg is beating him in same team, it means Rosberg is currently best driver on grid.

This is simply applying same logic as '2xWDC and 28 wins > Perez and Maldonado'.



Yes they have had chances, a number of f1 races, and have not shown anything really special, apart from a few good races by Perez. If you are still not sure if they are comparble to an all time great then you are a very poor judge of drivers.

Edited by muttyx, 18 April 2012 - 08:27.


#71 velgajski1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:37

Yes they have had chances, a number of f1 races, and have not shown anything really special, apart from a few good races by Perez. If you are still not sure if they are comparble to an all time great then you are a very poor judge of drivers.


Maldonado has also shown to be quick on occasion, but okay, since he's an older driver perhaps its fair to say that he had the time to show more, but didn't.

But for Perez for example - you cannot claim that he is for sure, 100% slower than Alonso. He is only 22, and he did pretty well in his first F1 season.

#72 muttyx

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:46

Never claimed for sure. Just a strong educated assumption.

#73 TestaRossa

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:44

Using same logic, you could say that Schumacher is fastest overall, because he has most wins and titles. And since Rosberg is beating him in same team, it means Rosberg is currently best driver on grid.


But the analogy is not entirely perfect here because the "prime" Schumacher is no longer on the grid, but rather a 43 years old legend one. And to be pedant, Nico was beating him, this year is 2X1 for Schumacher in qualifyings and races. Mercedes gifted him with an advantadge of 24 points over Schumacher, though, so he might outscore him again even though that's not necessarily beating in my book :p

Back on topic, I think we'll have a better picture after teams kind of sort out their initial problems when they will have their final big chance in Muggelo. Therefore, Barcelona will be quite an intriguing weekend to follow

#74 Dunder

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:19

Success is pretty easy to define, wins or at least a drive in a top team, and beating team mates, rather than just filling up a seat which many mediocre drivers can manage. Kovalainen is judged when he had his chance against a top driver, not when he is racing against a pensioner Trulli or Russian pay driver, when its easy to gain the perception of being a very good driver.


Kova got the McLaren drive on the back of his rookie F1 season where he beat Fisichella.

In retrospect I guess we could say either 1) Heikki just didn't do himself justice at McLaren or 2) Beating Fisi in a Renault just wasn't that hard!


#75 TT6

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:20

I'm afraid the perception changes race by race. However McLaren seems to be consistently fast both in quali and in race.

Mercedes may have benefitted by the cool weather in China, I think they'll run into trouble when the temperature rises. In this sense they may look better than they really are. On the other hand warmer conditions may suit Lotus better since they should be easy on tires (not that easy as they thought in China, thou :rolleyes: )

I don't think one could choose from Lotus, Mercedes, Red Bull or Sauber. Ferrari may get into that list too. Williams is astonishingly fast too. It's very close competition this year. I'm afraid McLaren will end up dominating the season, getting most wins and podiums. The rest of the bunch will take turns in getting good results and that too will play into McLarens pockets.

#76 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:28

I'm afraid the perception changes race by race. However McLaren seems to be consistently fast both in quali and in race.

The rest of the bunch will take turns in getting good results and that too will play into McLarens pockets.


McLaren drivers will need the others to do that because, given current team philosophy, they themselves will rip each other to shreds this year.

Speaking of Kovy...O how Lewis must be lamenting not having the calibre of driver Kovy was (vintage 2008/9) in the other MP4-27! Life would be much easier for him. McLaren could concentrate on him fully and not have the other driver finishing ahead of him on the podium twice in the first three GPs.;)

But getting back to the Pecking Order, I'm quite certain that Ferrari won't be "7th" for too long after this weekend.

A leap to 4th or 3rd or even 2nd on some circuits - past lesser funded teams like Williams, Sauber and Lotus - is inevitable, in my opinion.

Speaking of Lotus: They might be 2nd or 3rd fastest in qually and might have a very good racing car in the E20...but i'll tell you one thing. Their organizational attention to race details is absolutely shit. Lotus trackside operations and strategy and the pitstops themselves are hideous! Boullier is utterly useless. James Allison and Raikkonen/Grosjean have all the makings of a combo than can possibly eek out a win under the correct conditions...but you can bet that Boullier and Co. will do their best to cock it up somewhere in the race proper. Their pitstops really are absolutely ghastly!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 18 April 2012 - 14:53.


#77 RealRacing

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 15:02

Having already read the opinions of some teams regarding tyres (Mercedes, Ferrari, Williams...), I think that in many races the result may even depend on how lucky teams are that in certain temperatures, their car-tyre combination is the better working one, just because these tyres are so temperamental. I think the best indication of whether this trend continues, will be Mercedes this weekend. In any case, as said before and elsewhere, IMO the tyre window is too narrow and the tyres have too much protagonism this year so far.

#78 redbull1654

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:15

Hello first!
I thing that red bull mostly vettel will also close the gap to mercedec,mclaren on training,qualifiying.And on race they are equal to mclaren!
QUALFIYING:
1.McLaren,Merc
2.RBR,Lotus
RACE:
1.Mclaren,RBR
2.Lotus
3.Merc
4.Sauber...
5.Others

#79 robefc

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:39

Lewis's view courtesy of Andrew Benson @ bbc

Lewis Hamilton leads the championship, and he thinks that the honour of quickest car has so far been split between McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes, depending on how you look at it. 'The Mercedes I think is now the quickest - particularly over one lap,' he said. 'Not sure they are quickest in race pace. I think the Red Bull is probably the quickest in race pace. We have shown we have good qualifying pace and race pace. We are there or thereabouts and we have as good an opportunity as anyone

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#80 AnR

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:04

Qualy
1> McLaren
2> Merc (Things could have changed now but I m sceptical)
3> Lotus
4> RBR
5> Sauber / Williams

Race
1> McLaren
2> Merc
3> Sauber
4> RBR
5> Lotus

Best package seems to be McLaren but since Merc are at their backs , they will have to avoid mistakes to clinch the titles this year ...


+1

#81 roadie

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:14

This is difficult after 3 races at completely different venues with completely different conditions!

I think it's clear from qualifying that there is a group of teams that is ahead: Mclaren, Mercedes, RBR and Lotus. I'm not completely sold on Sauber here, but they have made strides forward. Ferrari and Williams are slightly further back.

Question marks still remain over Mercedes in the race, but it seems to be Mclaren, RBR, Lotus and Mercedes, followed closely by Williams, Sauber and Ferrari.

#82 RealRacing

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 00:52

Roll a dice: 1 is Williams/Sauber, 2 is Ferrari, 3 is Mercedes, 4 is McLAren, 5 is RBR, 6 is Lotus...

Edited by RealRacing, 21 April 2012 - 00:53.


#83 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:36

Wow!

A different layout, a different (more abrasive) surface and vastly hotter (35 C) track temperatures and we get a different picture.

Obviously RBR have been working over-time...and now they're all going in the same direction!

QUALIFYING (After Bahrain)

1= McLaren (There or Thereabouts - especially with HAM - on every type of circuit and most temperature conditions)

1= Mercedes (Very fast on fast circuits with long straights; ROS only went out once to save a new set of Options)
1= Red Bull (could be the heat and layout; possible development jump on the 1 lap front)

4 Lotus (GRO made a Q3 error that cost 2-tenths. Could have bettered ROS's time...but ROS only went out once to save tyres)

5 Sauber

6= Ferrari
6= Williams (not their circuit in Qually, was it?)
6= Toro Rosso (That was one heck of a lap from RIC!)


RACE (Let's see...but form would suggest:)

=1 McLaren
=1 RBR
=1 Mercedes

4 Lotus

5= Williams
5= Sauber ??? - Up there in Malaysia, dropped off in China
5= Ferrari - They're expecting nothing better than 6th or 7th

8= Toro Rosso
8= Force India

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 23 April 2012 - 01:19.


#84 BernieEc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:27

I think

Races requiring low corner speed and good traction e.g. Monaco maybe Suzuka (Red Bull with McLaren a close 2nd)

Races requiring straight line speed e.g. Monza maybe Spa ( Mercedes with McLaren a close 2nd)

Races with medium to high speed corner e.g Hungary ( McLaren)

The Macs seem to have an all round package and will be competitive on most circuits.

The only one I can't seem to place right now is Lotus. I really don't know where they stand as they have not really had a trouble free quali during any of the races and in the race itself Grosjean has crashed out 2x and Kimi strategy compromised in china. I really do think they are good but for the life of me can't really place them in the pecking order.

#85 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:17

Yes.

but what's really interesting is that, in terms of 1 lap qually, Lotus are falling...

...while RBR have risen...

I mean, after the first two races, the Lotus E20 qualified as 2nd fastest car (Grosjean was 3rd on the grid with only McLarens ahead in AUS...and Kimi thinking he had a shot at Row 2 in MAL). Now, the E20 isn't even 3rd fastest over 1 lap!

The E20s upgrades don't seem to have worked in relation the the RBR RB8 or the tweaking for the Mercedes W03.

The Grandees are begining to methodically exert themselves with in-season developments and Lotus is getting leap-frogged.

Lotus/Kimi/Grosjean didn't strike when the iron was hottest for them (i.e. when RBR and Mercedes were having issues in the early races) and I think they might come to regret their repeated missed opportunities.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 22 April 2012 - 09:22.


#86 Zauba

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:20

I think

Races requiring low corner speed and good traction e.g. Monaco maybe Suzuka (Red Bull with McLaren a close 2nd)

Races requiring straight line speed e.g. Monza maybe Spa ( Mercedes with McLaren a close 2nd)

Races with medium to high speed corner e.g Hungary ( McLaren)

The Macs seem to have an all round package and will be competitive on most circuits.

The only one I can't seem to place right now is Lotus. I really don't know where they stand as they have not really had a trouble free quali during any of the races and in the race itself Grosjean has crashed out 2x and Kimi strategy compromised in china. I really do think they are good but for the life of me can't really place them in the pecking order.

:lol:



#87 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:19

Well, it doesn't look like McLaren have the fastest race car in conditions that are too hot. in addition, the RBR RB8 has been upgraded more successfully than the MP4-27 since Australia.

Hamilton was fast enough to split the RBRs in Q3 (just as he was when splitting the Mercedes W03's in Chinese Q3)...but there was nothing he could have done about the RB8 of Vettel or the Lotuses in this race (just like he might not have been able to do anything about Rosberg in China had he not been dropped 5 spots from 2nd on the grid there).

We'll never know how fast the McLaren would have been in the race today had they not given TWO nightmare pitstops to Hamilton.

I'll take a shot at the Race 'Pecking Order'...:

1 = RBR RB8 (they've worked hard on upgrading the car...and VET now leads the title)
1 = Mercedes W03 (This wasn't their circuit...but they will be fast at a lot of them)

3 = McLaren MP4-27 (They've really done a shit job in the races, especially pitstops)
3 = Lotus E20 (1st race where there were no cock-ups)

5... Ferrari F2012 (Alonso/Massa showing the car is no better than the Top 4...but no worse than the Williams and the Sauber)

6 - 10: Take your pick of Sauber, Williams, Force India, Toro Rosso

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 22 April 2012 - 19:20.


#88 korzeniow

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

Well, it doesn't look like McLaren have the fastest race car in conditions that are too hot. in addition, the RBR RB8 has been upgraded more successfully than the MP4-27 since Australia.

Hamilton was fast enough to split the RBRs in Q3 (just as he was when splitting the Mercedes W03's in Chinese Q3)...but there was nothing he could have done about the RB8 of Vettel or the Lotuses in this race (just like he might not have been able to do anything about Rosberg in China had he not been dropped 5 spots from 2nd on the grid there).

We'll never know how fast the McLaren would have been in the race today had they not given TWO nightmare pitstops to Hamilton.

I'll take a shot at the Race 'Pecking Order'...:

1 = RBR RB8 (they've worked hard on upgrading the car...and VET now leads the title)
1 = Mercedes W03 (This wasn't their circuit...but they will be fast at a lot of them)

3 = McLaren MP4-27 (They've really done a shit job in the races, especially pitstops)
3 = Lotus E20 (1st race where there were no cock-ups)

5... Ferrari F2012 (Alonso/Massa showing the car is no better than the Top 4...but no worse than the Williams and the Sauber)

6 - 10: Take your pick of Sauber, Williams, Force India, Toro Rosso


Two things.
1. How on earth you can say Mercedes has the best race pace? How this track wasn't theirs since it looks like it was build specifically for W03 characteristics.
2. McLaren had actually only one good race and it was Australia. Hot conditions apparently don't siut them, cold neither... :drunk:





#89 SCUDmissile

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

Based on Bahrain ONLY

1.RedBull
2. Lotus
3. Merc
4-5. Ferrari McLaren
6. Sauber, FI, Williams.
7. Rest.

It is not great reading for Ferrari or McLaren fans, but IMO that is where they stand after Bahrain, and the first race at a proper track with hot temps. So you could say it was the first normal race.
P.S. can we say now that the F2012 is faster than Sauber/Williams?

#90 canaus

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:36

Race:

1-2 McLaren/RBR (Aus McL, Mal,Chi - equals, Bah -RBR)
3-4. Mercedes, Lotus
5-7. Sauber, Ferrari, Williams
8-9. Force India, STR
....

Qualy:

1. McLaren
2. Mercedes
3. RBR
4. Lotus
5. Sauber
6-7. Ferrari, Williams
8-9. Force India, STR
....

#91 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:41

Race

1 RedBull
2 Lotus
3 McLaren

Qualifying

1. RedBull
2. Mercedes
3. McLaren

#92 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:43

Two things.
1. How on earth you can say Mercedes has the best race pace? How this track wasn't theirs since it looks like it was build specifically for W03 characteristics.
2. McLaren had actually only one good race and it was Australia. Hot conditions apparently don't siut them, cold neither... :drunk:


First point 2... I agree. MP4-27 doesn't like it too cool or too hot.

As per point 1... I didn't say the W03 has "best" race pace ... I said it was co-fastest. The conditions were quite hot and the Sakhir configuration isn't like Shanghai (which has one very long straight preceeded by a rather long bend).


#93 korzeniow

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:47

First point 2... I agree. MP4-27 doesn't like it too cool or too hot.

As per point 1... I didn't say the W03 has "best" race pace ... I said it was co-fastest. The conditions were quite hot and the Sakhir configuration isn't like Shanghai (which has one very long straight preceeded by a rather long bend).


I think McLaren is behind Lotus on race pace. Kimi was fast in wet Malaysia (posted fastest lap time), he was closing in on Button in cold China in first stint and today in Bahrain McLarens were no mach for Lotus pace.

As for Mercedes I think Shanghai was one off with track's long straight and colder conditions.

Edited by korzeniow, 22 April 2012 - 19:48.


#94 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:26

So, no one is thinking that McLaren are clearly fastest on race pace anymore?!?

McLaren have cocked it up in the pits far too often (and that' not including the gearbox change penalty in Shanghai)...but what's even more worrying now is that they've been leap-frogged on race pace.

Red Bull have worked meticulously on the rear end after using the Grand Prix in China as a "test" to evaluate two different solutions effectively. Smart!

I imagine the guys at Woking will rue not striking whilst the iron was hot in the first three races when the RBR, Lotus and Mercedes boys weren't getting it right consistently and when Ferrari was on it's back foot with it's F2012.

Mugello should be interesting!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 23 April 2012 - 01:30.


#95 Zauba

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:29

Two things.
1. How on earth you can say Mercedes has the best race pace? How this track wasn't theirs since it looks like it was build specifically for W03 characteristics.
2. McLaren had actually only one good race and it was Australia. Hot conditions apparently don't siut them, cold neither... :drunk:

:lol:
yeah, only Melbourne track suit them.

Mclaren is definitely not the fastest car, never was. Australia fooled us.

P.S. can we say now that the F2012 is faster than Sauber/Williams?


Yes. In Bahrain, Ferrari was faster. Every place else, Sauber and Williams were faster

#96 ViMaMo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:22

Was hoping to compare race pace of drivers in Bahrain but *bleug* . I really dont know who has got the pace except the guy in front. Button just drove away in Australia, so did Nico, so did Vettel. Apart from that the rest of the grid's pace is just chaos and noise ? Is pole the safest position this season?


Edited by ViMaMo, 23 April 2012 - 07:23.


#97 ForzaGTR

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:24

Race:

Red Bull
Lotus
Merc
Mclaren

Quali

Merc
Mclaren
Red Bull


#98 Stormsky68

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:25

Low speed corners and traction tracks
1.RB
2.Lotus
3.Mclaren
4.Mercedes

Hi speed tracks
1.Mercedes
2.Mclaren
3.RB
4.Lotus / Sauber / Ferrari

(Which makes Lewis poles rather out of pattern)

Edited by Stormsky68, 23 April 2012 - 07:27.


#99 fatd

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:30

Was hoping to compare race pace of drivers in Bahrain but *bleug* . I really dont know who has got the pace except the guy in front. Button just drove away in Australia, so did Nico, so did Vettel. Apart from that the rest of the grid's pace is just chaos and noise ? Is pole the safest position this season?


It is always generally the safest position every season! There has to be a reason why we have all drivers fighting over it on Saturdays ;)

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#100 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:48

Was hoping to compare race pace of drivers in Bahrain but *bleug* . I really dont know who has got the pace except the guy in front. Button just drove away in Australia, so did Nico, so did Vettel. Apart from that the rest of the grid's pace is just chaos and noise ? Is pole the safest position this season?

Clearly Vettel and Lotus have the pace in this race. Webber also. Other were pretty much equal. Also the Mercedes was the team without any updates from top 5 teams(in first 4 races). Gills and driver cooling doesn't count.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 07:50.