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Latest Qualifying & Race Pace Pecking Order


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#101 H2H

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:10

Race:

1-2 McLaren/RBR (Aus McL, Mal,Chi - equals, Bah -RBR)
3-4. Mercedes, Lotus
5-7. Sauber, Ferrari, Williams
8-9. Force India, STR
....

Qualy:

1. McLaren
2. Mercedes
3. RBR
4. Lotus
5. Sauber
6-7. Ferrari, Williams
8-9. Force India, STR
....


This matches pretty much my feelings. But as I said before with tyre management absolute key getting the setup (and the weekend strategy) right is more important then ever. Lotus seemed to have the best race pace but how much of it was due to fresh(er) tyres and a better race setup? Impossible to know. On the other hand what are the reasons for the poor race pace for the likely best overall package, the Mac?



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#102 Zava

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:43

Low speed corners and traction tracks
1.RB
2.Lotus
3.Mclaren
4.Mercedes

Hi speed tracks
1.Mercedes
2.Mclaren
3.RB
4.Lotus / Sauber / Ferrari

(Which makes Lewis poles rather out of pattern)

also it makes the not so quali expert Button's second grid places out of pattern.

#103 HoldenRT

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:07

Track temperatures seem to be just as if not MORE important in determining pace of a weekend, rather then car and track characteristics.

The other lists have been done above for those.. for the temps..

Hot tracks -

RBR/Lotus
McLaren
Merc

Cool tracks -

Merc
McLaren
Redbull
Lotus

So track temps + track characteristics.. averaged out, seems to indicate something close to the reality, but there is also the luck factor for any given weekend with the tyres, and also updates/development/evolution of setup etc. McLaren and RBR are the best overall cars, but Lotus showed they got great potential in the future IMO.

Mercedes is the weakest link IMO, and I thought this BEFORE the Bahrain GP started, that China was a one off due to low track temps, so it's not just a knee jerk reaction. But such is 2012, that any of these 4 cars can win races if the circumstances are right for them.

Edited by HoldenRT, 23 April 2012 - 09:12.


#104 sock22

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:02

Here's my attempt at working out the order...

IMO, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes and Lotus are close enough on aero performance to be in contention at the front if they hit the sweet spot with the tyres. I would guess that their aero packages put them about 0.5-0.7s apart in equal conditions, but this is pure speculation. The absolute key to performance at the moment is tyre management and getting the tyres into the operating window. After four races, I'm struggling to see any pattern with regards to track characteristics or temperatures. Variables such as teams learning lessons from previous races, upgrades to the cars or even just bad luck at some weekends cloud the picture too much at this early stage. Nevertheless, I will try to define some of the characteristics of the cars as they stand:

- McLaren: have generally looked solid in qualifying and the race (although less so in the race); Bahrain was an issue of tyres which seemed to be present all weekend; they say they are better in high speed corners, which could partly explain their problems in Bahrain (which is mainly straights and tight corners)
- Red Bull: struggled in qualifying up to Bahrain, but have been strong in races, gravitating towards the front; I think Bahrain was as much a step back for McLaren and Mercedes as it was a step forward for Red Bull. I think any step forward in aero is being exaggerated, because it just seemed to be their turn to hit the sweet spot (see how Lotus managed to catch up and keep up); they apparently excel in low speed corners with good traction, whether this was a factor in their success in Bahrain, I'm not sure
- Mercedes: I would say Merc have among the best ultimate pace, particularly in qualy, but they seem to have the most trouble getting the tyres to work. I think they will take a few more wins and podiums this year (when they get the tyres working), but they will be too sporadic for a title challenge
- Lotus: we saw the potential of this team in Bahrain; we have seen flashes of it up to now (Grosjean P3 in Oz qualy, Raikkonen P4 in China qualy and running P2 in race before his tyres dropped off) but a mixture of bad luck and errors (Grosjean retirements, Raikkonen Oz qualy, tyre strategy in China) have kept them away from the front. If they can iron out the mistakes they could be a team to watch, as they seem to be quite consistent with their race pace, with no obvious tyre wear issues apart from Raikkonen in China which was more down to strategy

Of course, in wet races the cars become even more limited by tyres and teams with poorer aero packages (basically the entire midfield) can come into play; this is shown by 9 teams finishing in the points in Malaysia. Again, it is all dependent on tyres, particular heating them in the wet/dry conditions. This is where Ferrari and Sauber excelled.

It seems to be a big advantage to be leading the race and be free from on-track battles. Although Lotus showed that tyre-saving in qualifying can pay off in the race, Vettel showed that starting from pole and staying in front is what delivers the victory. Rosberg and Button also won by being out in front and so did Alonso once the conditions settled down.

Looking ahead to Spain, I would look at a few factors in guessing who comes out on top. First, is the nature of the track. It has a variety of corners, but there are more high speed corners and fewer straights than Bahrain. It will also be more difficult to overtake than in Bahrain, so qualifying higher up the grid will be beneficial and strategies with fewer pit stops could work. Second, is the weather conditions. Assuming it is dry, it will be down to temperature; ambient temperature looks set to be about 20 degrees, which is quite cool and could produce similar conditions to China. Third, is any updates on the cars. Rather than the ultimate performance they could bring, my focus will be on how well the teams understand their cars with the updates, as this will be key to extracting performance from the tyres. Lastly, it will just be down to who manages to get the most out of the tyres, and this we won't know until the event itself.

My early guess would be that Red Bull won't enjoy the same advantage they did in Bahrain, because the track and potential temperature look more akin to China. I would back McLaren to return towards the front, with Mercedes getting in around the second row. As for Lotus, if they can have a trouble-free weekend they may be able to get a car up into the mix too.

After Spain, its Monaco and Canada, which each have unique characteristics, so I doubt we will be able to judge the results of those at all.

#105 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:20

Here's my attempt at working out the order...

IMO, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes and Lotus are close enough on aero performance to be in contention at the front if they hit the sweet spot with the tyres.

- Lotus: we saw the potential of this team in Bahrain; we have seen flashes of it up to now (Grosjean P3 in Oz qualy, Raikkonen P4 in China qualy and running P2 in race before his tyres dropped off) but a mixture of bad luck and errors (Grosjean retirements, Raikkonen Oz qualy, tyre strategy in China) have kept them away from the front. If they can iron out the mistakes they could be a team to watch, as they seem to be quite consistent with their race pace, with no obvious tyre wear issues apart from Raikkonen in China which was more down to strategy

My early guess would be that Red Bull won't enjoy the same advantage they did in Bahrain...

...As for Lotus, if they can have a trouble-free weekend they may be able to get a car up into the mix too.

After Spain, its Monaco and Canada, which each have unique characteristics, so I doubt we will be able to judge the results of those at all.


I've re-evaluated my Race Pecking Order upon second thought with respect to Red Bull V Lotus after Bahrain. I'll copy/paste what I typed in the "Lotus F1 Team" thread...so let's see if anyone agrees:



"Do you think they (Lotus) might have had a 1-2 or a 1-3 if they'd focused a little more on a better grid spot and slightly less on race pace?

I mean it's a good result...but we don't know how much time was lost trying to sort out Ferraris, McLarens and Webber in the race. Right?

It could well be that the E20s were the best race car at Sakhir (configuration, temperatures) and that it was Vettel who "extracted" the win "from" the RB8 (by starting 10 spots further up from Kimi...Pulling away from pole in clean air which allowed him to take care of his tyres better...and then defending like mad when it mattered), aided, no doubt, by his crew doing faster pitstops than Kimi's crew (Lotus's Achilles Heel).

Isn't that possible? That the E20 was the superior car at Sakhir on Sunday?

Hindsight is 20/20...but, as you alluded to in your whole post (which I edited out), the Lotus drivers needed to be virutally perfect coming through from 9th / 11th.

Thoughts?
"

What I didn't say is that the Lotuses handily had the measure of Webber.

So, I don't think the RB8 was the superior car in relation to the E20 on Sunday. No way.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 23 April 2012 - 16:23.


#106 choyothe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:27

also it makes the not so quali expert Button's second grid places out of pattern.


:up:

#107 H2H

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 17:25

What I didn't say is that the Lotuses handily had the measure of Webber.

So, I don't think the RB8 was the superior car in relation to the E20 on Sunday. No way.


The E20 was the better car on Sunday, maybe not by much but it certainly was. Compared to the RB8 it is due to it's different areo efficiency and top speed also a better car for coming through the ranks.

Lotus collected in the first four races considerably fewer points then it could have. Of course all the other top teams also had their fair share of troubles.

Edited by H2H, 23 April 2012 - 17:27.


#108 canaus

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 17:35

Here's my attempt at working out the order...

IMO, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes and Lotus are close enough on aero performance to be in contention at the front if they hit the sweet spot with the tyres. I would guess that their aero packages put them about 0.5-0.7s apart in equal conditions, but this is pure speculation. The absolute key to performance at the moment is tyre management and getting the tyres into the operating window. After four races, I'm struggling to see any pattern with regards to track characteristics or temperatures. Variables such as teams learning lessons from previous races, upgrades to the cars or even just bad luck at some weekends cloud the picture too much at this early stage. Nevertheless, I will try to define some of the characteristics of the cars as they stand:

- McLaren: have generally looked solid in qualifying and the race (although less so in the race); Bahrain was an issue of tyres which seemed to be present all weekend; they say they are better in high speed corners, which could partly explain their problems in Bahrain (which is mainly straights and tight corners)
- Red Bull: struggled in qualifying up to Bahrain, but have been strong in races, gravitating towards the front; I think Bahrain was as much a step back for McLaren and Mercedes as it was a step forward for Red Bull. I think any step forward in aero is being exaggerated, because it just seemed to be their turn to hit the sweet spot (see how Lotus managed to catch up and keep up); they apparently excel in low speed corners with good traction, whether this was a factor in their success in Bahrain, I'm not sure
- Mercedes: I would say Merc have among the best ultimate pace, particularly in qualy, but they seem to have the most trouble getting the tyres to work. I think they will take a few more wins and podiums this year (when they get the tyres working), but they will be too sporadic for a title challenge
- Lotus: we saw the potential of this team in Bahrain; we have seen flashes of it up to now (Grosjean P3 in Oz qualy, Raikkonen P4 in China qualy and running P2 in race before his tyres dropped off) but a mixture of bad luck and errors (Grosjean retirements, Raikkonen Oz qualy, tyre strategy in China) have kept them away from the front. If they can iron out the mistakes they could be a team to watch, as they seem to be quite consistent with their race pace, with no obvious tyre wear issues apart from Raikkonen in China which was more down to strategy

Of course, in wet races the cars become even more limited by tyres and teams with poorer aero packages (basically the entire midfield) can come into play; this is shown by 9 teams finishing in the points in Malaysia. Again, it is all dependent on tyres, particular heating them in the wet/dry conditions. This is where Ferrari and Sauber excelled.

It seems to be a big advantage to be leading the race and be free from on-track battles. Although Lotus showed that tyre-saving in qualifying can pay off in the race, Vettel showed that starting from pole and staying in front is what delivers the victory. Rosberg and Button also won by being out in front and so did Alonso once the conditions settled down.

Looking ahead to Spain, I would look at a few factors in guessing who comes out on top. First, is the nature of the track. It has a variety of corners, but there are more high speed corners and fewer straights than Bahrain. It will also be more difficult to overtake than in Bahrain, so qualifying higher up the grid will be beneficial and strategies with fewer pit stops could work. Second, is the weather conditions. Assuming it is dry, it will be down to temperature; ambient temperature looks set to be about 20 degrees, which is quite cool and could produce similar conditions to China. Third, is any updates on the cars. Rather than the ultimate performance they could bring, my focus will be on how well the teams understand their cars with the updates, as this will be key to extracting performance from the tyres. Lastly, it will just be down to who manages to get the most out of the tyres, and this we won't know until the event itself.

My early guess would be that Red Bull won't enjoy the same advantage they did in Bahrain, because the track and potential temperature look more akin to China. I would back McLaren to return towards the front, with Mercedes getting in around the second row. As for Lotus, if they can have a trouble-free weekend they may be able to get a car up into the mix too.

After Spain, its Monaco and Canada, which each have unique characteristics, so I doubt we will be able to judge the results of those at all.


I have no choice but to agree with this. :up:

Edited by canaus, 23 April 2012 - 17:36.


#109 canaus

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 17:38

The E20 was the better car on Sunday, maybe not by much but it certainly was. Compared to the RB8 it is due to it's different areo efficiency and top speed also a better car for coming through the ranks.

Lotus collected in the first four races considerably fewer points then it could have. Of course all the other top teams also had their fair share of troubles.


The E20 was very fast on the straights, but RBR had much better traction. Vettel was much better on turn 2.

#110 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 17:33

I missed the Mugello test reports/discussion due to unforseen issues and wanted to cut to the chase quickly with a question or two:

Firstly, how do members feel Ferrari went with their upgrades and are they a potential threat for the Top 2 rows of the Spanish GP grid?

Ferrari actually didn't have that bad of a "race spec" package and their main issue was low fuel or one flying lap speed in relation to McLaren, RBR, Lotus, Mercedes, even Sauber-Ferrari.

Do you think the engineers at Maranello will have come up with a big step forward, or is it too early to say because we don't know what the other Grandees will bring to Catalunya?

Also, this talk about Lotus winning a race. Are they bringing meaningful upgrades ... or are they just "hoping" for all the elements to fall "perfectly" for them in order for Kimi - or young Grosjean - to take a win?

Thoughts?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 10 May 2012 - 17:37.


#111 roadie

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:01

I think the only answer to this now can be
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#112 Sevach

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:22

Ferrari got a big jump in performance (beating the Lotuses is no small feat) and so did Williams, both in qualy and the race.

Lotus remain a very consistent and very good car.

Sauber is consistent too but slower.

Mercedes had that one weekend where they looked like world beaters, but not much else, they didn't even try in Q (suppousedly their strength) and were slow in the race.

Mclaren (Hamilton at least) is the best qualy car, but isn't phenomenal in the race.

Red Bull... i expected better after Bahrain, i thought they figured their car and would be always fighting at the front even if they don't dominate like last year, but they were nowhere in a race
which 3 of the top 4 were Renault engined cars.

Monaco's is anyone's guess, that track already produces some crazy results on predictable seasons, this year...

Edited by Sevach, 13 May 2012 - 23:24.


#113 lbennie

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:39

Car performance does not matter. It's whoever can get the tyres working on any given day.

Formula Pirelli indeed.

#114 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:42

This thread is basically a gigantic waste of time.

#115 fisssssi

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:47

Roll a dice: 1 is Williams/Sauber, 2 is Ferrari, 3 is Mercedes, 4 is McLAren, 5 is RBR, 6 is Lotus...


Quoted for accuracy.

#116 apoka

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:45

In terms of qualy, I think McLaren is still best overall. In the races, I think Lotus and maybe McLaren have a slight edge over Williams, Sauber, Ferrari, Red Bull, Merc, then another small gap to TR and FI and the 3 new teams still at the back. Whoever manages to understand the tyres can win races and WDC/WCC.

Fun fact: After 5 races, the WDC leader had 118 points last year and 61 points this year.


#117 velgajski1

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:58

In terms of qualy, I think McLaren is still best overall. In the races, I think Lotus and maybe McLaren have a slight edge over Williams, Sauber, Ferrari, Red Bull, Merc, then another small gap to TR and FI and the 3 new teams still at the back. Whoever manages to understand the tyres can win races and WDC/WCC.

Fun fact: After 5 races, the WDC leader had 118 points last year and 61 points this year.


Another fun fact, person scoring 5 4th places would be just one point shy from leading WDC (without even being on podium in a single race).

#118 Jovanotti

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:33

Quali & Race pace order? No idea, but as many said before, consistency is key this season. At this stage I predict a WDC-battle Alonso-Räikkönen (with Vettel and Hamilton also in the mix). I for one would love to see these two fighting it out again!

Edited by Jovanotti, 14 May 2012 - 06:37.


#119 BellisEndis

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:19

Car performance does not matter. It's whoever can get the tyres working on any given day.

Formula Pirelli indeed.



haha WTF when has this not been the case, just because it is harder for the teams to get the tyres working you all have a little fit...

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#120 SCUDmissile

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:53

I don't think we will ever know, nobody was pushing 100%, maybe Alonso when Hamilton was pitting.

#121 Dan333SP

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:43

The only standout to me from this weekend in terms of order shakeup was that the Mercedes looked like a race winner (and pole sitter) on a track that many didn't expect to suit the car. Also, the Williams was nowhere near as competitive as I thought they would be. Ferrari have taken a huge step forward as well, but with the emphasis shifted away from aerodynamic efficiency and placed on absolute downforce and mechanical grip, that might hide flaws in both the Mercedes and the Ferrari.

#122 jrg19

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:46

Qualifying pace:

1. McLaren/Mercedes/RedBull
2. Ferrari/Lotus

Race Pace:

1. Red Bull
2. Ferrari
3. Mercedes
4. Lotus
5. McLaren

#123 RealRacing

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:58

After Monaco>

Quali:

1. Mercedes
2. McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus
3. Red Bull

Race:

1. Ferrari/Red Bull
2. Mercedes/McLaren/Lotus

Ferrari going forward, McLaren backwards basically and Lotus continuing to disappoint with unrealized apparent potential.



#124 Seanspeed

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 17:36

Ferrari have taken a huge step forward as well, but with the emphasis shifted away from aerodynamic efficiency and placed on absolute downforce and mechanical grip

Not really true. Yes, the Monaco package had parts that were designed for max downforce, but it'd be the same for any team. Overall, their big upgrade package in Barcelona definitely had aero efficiency in mind, with them working on getting rid of the top speed problem with the car.

#125 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 14:22

Some thoughts:

1...

Right after the Mugello Tests - which i admittedly never had a chance to follow - I asked (in my last post on the previous page) if Ferrari had made a big step.

Well, with Alonso up there on the grid and the race in Spain...and Massa up there ahead of Button and Vettel and Raikkonen on the Monte Carlo grid, one has to say that Ferrari are now in the Top 4 in qually and race spec.

Well, at least they're no longer 5th or worse! :up:


2...

Clearly Hamilton is a very fast qualifyer...And clearly Button isn't that poor a driver.

This means that McLaren are no longer the fastest qualifying and race car like they were in the first few races.

McLaren will rue the umpteen costly mistakes they made on Hamilton's side of things. :down:

Hamilton ought to be leading the WDC standings, not Alonso. But Ferrari pitstops for Alonso have been THE best this season and have aided Alonso in gaining track position vs the opposition and, thus, aided in taking the points lead.

McLaren have been dismal...and now they've lost pace too. Button is plainly looking piss poor in Qually and McLaren must be worried. They were arrogant in March and April when others (like Ferrari) were on the back foot, but arrogant no more...And, they've yet to sign their faster driver (who could yet get fed up and still sign elsewere like Mercedes or Red Bull or even Ferrari (unlikely...but money talks).)


3....

Some of the 'pundits' are saying that the Mercedes W03 will be a real force in Montreal.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rosberg or Schumacher won our national Grand Prix, frankly.



4...

Red Bull

I'd put Red Bull in the Top 3 in both Qually and the Race, possibly even Top 2 depending on circuit config and temperatures.


5...

Lotus. They didn't make hay whilst the sun was shining...and, from now, the pace of development at the Grandees - ie Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes/Brawn - will be relentless...and, so, I expect Lotus to fall once they circus comes back to Europe for the Summer. Lotus need to capitalize on whatever they've got in Montreal. Otherwise good luck :wave:


6...

Williams need a driver who is both fast and consistent. Sadly, Bruno is neither...and Maldo - whose pace can be lightning at times - seems not to have a proper head on his shoulders yet. Operative word being "yet".

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 28 May 2012 - 14:43.


#126 gillesthegenius

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 15:04

Qualifying:
1) Mclaren
- most consistent
2) Mercedes
- stunningly fast when everything clicks, perilously slow when things dont click.
3) Lotus
- consistency that is second only to Mclaren, but havent had the outright fastest car in any of the circuits yet.
4) Red Bull
- look like they have a car that has a lot of potential, but challenging for pole has been a problem except in Bahrain and Monaco.
5) Ferrari
- fast improving pace, but havent been able to challenge for pole yet.

Race:
1) Red Bull
- consitently fast, but a lack of qualy pace has severely hampered their quest for more victories.
2) Ferrari
- fast improving race pace that has always been better than qualy pace.
3) Mclaren
- seem to be dropping off from what looked like deadly pace early on in the season.
4) Mercedes
- horribly inconsistent pace like in qualy.
5) Lotus
- plenty of unlocked potential.

#127 mdaclarke

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 17:51

Bruno's race pace is fine. It is his qualifying pace needs to improve.

#128 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 19:26

Bruno's race pace is fine. It is his qualifying pace needs to improve.


Well, rumor has it that Valtteri Bottas is going to replace him if he doesn't start delivering. If Williams gets 5th or 6th place WCC prize money and also get new sponsorship deals (because they're no longer shit), then they won't need the Brazilian's money they way they desperately needed it going into 2012.

There comes a time when you have to get the fastest driver to actually score the points that can be scored ... and, thus, let go of a driver who was helping to foot the bill at a time when you really need the funds.

That time is coming. Hopefully soon from a Williams perspective. (No team wants to rely on a slower driver simply because they need funds. Hopefully Williams are over that low point...and can put in a driver who is just plain faster).

Who is to say that Bottas can't be faster and more consistent than even Maldonado? It's not impossible. Williams probably have a Top 5 car and they've said they aren't going to be happy with just one win in 2012.

Sadly, Bruno isn't showing the Williams' true form consistently enough. Is he?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 28 May 2012 - 19:33.


#129 mdaclarke

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 19:44

I think that talk is the work of the Finnish Press and the team has rubbished them. I do believe however that Bottas will be driving for Williams in 2013 though replacing one of the current drivers (probably Bruno) but could be Maldonado if he gets banned!!!

#130 mdaclarke

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 19:47

having watched all the races I would say the current pace of the cars (taking drivers out of it) is

1. Mclaren
2. Lotus
3. Red Bull
4. Mercedes
5. Ferrari
6. Sauber
7. Williams
8. Force India
9. Toro Rossi
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT

#131 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:14

having watched all the races I would say the current pace of the cars (taking drivers out of it) is

1. Mclaren
2. Lotus
3. Red Bull
4. Mercedes
5. Ferrari
6. Sauber
7. Williams


Speaking of Williams:


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100002

Gillian thinks that the car was good enough for "P4 or P5" on the Monaco grid and strong enough for a good "haul of points" in the GP.

He blames the drivers.

I can understand some of your ranking...but, as per the "current" pecking order, I'm finding it hard to put McLaren at #1 (given how shit Button's been lately) and, similarly, I find it hard to put Williams 7th right now.

Hamilton and Alonso have been exceptional in the first 6 races, so netting out the drivers, it's hard to think of McLarens as top pace setter in qually and race trim. Right now.

In addition, inspite of all the talk about "uncertainty", hasn't every one of the winners this year come from either Pole (or at least 'P1' following grid penalties to Hamilton (Spain) and Schumacher (Monaco)) or - in essence - the front row of the starting grid?



#132 korzeniow

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:21

having watched all the races I would say the current pace of the cars (taking drivers out of it) is

1. Mclaren
2. Lotus
3. Red Bull
4. Mercedes
5. Ferrari
6. Sauber
7. Williams
8. Force India
9. Toro Rossi
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT


Where McLaren showed strong race pace that you classified them as the best?

#133 aditya-now

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:35

having watched all the races I would say the current pace of the cars (taking drivers out of it) is

1. Mclaren
2. Lotus
3. Red Bull
4. Mercedes
5. Ferrari
6. Sauber
7. Williams
8. Force India
9. Toro Rossi
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT


Mercedes is quite low on your list, I don't think that's representative. Also Williams is definitely faster than Sauber. Race speed of McLaren is not that great.... And...and.... we agree in the last four teams, though :cool:

To me....

1. Mercedes
= 1. Red Bull
3. McLaren
4. Renault (Lotus)
= 4. Ferrari
6. Williams
7. Sauber
8. Force India
9. Toro Rosso
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT

Edited by aditya-now, 31 May 2012 - 12:36.


#134 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 19:36

Mercedes think they've got a shot of winning in Montreal.

Lotus will need HOT temperatures on Saturday and Sunday. Like they got in Bahrain. (No point in having only hot temperatures during qualifying but not in the race (or vice versa) if you've got an E20, it would seem.)

Massa was quick in Monaco in Q2 and not too bad in Q3...which means that Ferrari are in the hunt now and Alonso's got just a strong a chance of winning as, say, Vettel/Webber or Hamilton or Rosberg/Schumacher.

Raikkonen needs hot temperatures on Sat/Sun to have any shot...and Button, well, Button's not really driving like he's Championship material, is he?

The Canadian GP is a toss up right now.

But given that every GP winner has come from the front row this year, things should be much clearer by Saturday afternoon.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 31 May 2012 - 19:38.


#135 mdaclarke

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 19:51

Thats the beauty of this year. It is so close that people can have different views on the orders of the cars race pace.

#136 barneyrubble

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:51

Lotus
Redbull
Mercedes
Mclaren
Williams
Sauber
Ferrari


*Williams might even be quicker. Hard to determine because the drivers are so poor, same as Sauber.

#137 RealRacing

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 23:56

Lotus
Redbull
Mercedes
Mclaren
Williams
Sauber
Ferrari


*Williams might even be quicker. Hard to determine because the drivers are so poor, same as Sauber.


Hahaha, wait, changed that for you:

Lotus
Redbull
Mercedes
Mclaren
Williams
Sauber
Force India
Toro Rosso
Caterham
Marussia
HRT
Ferrari

:rolleyes:

#138 barneyrubble

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 02:04

No need to be extreme. :)

#139 Headspin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:37

Hahaha, wait, changed that for you:

Lotus
Redbull
Mercedes
Mclaren
Williams
Sauber
Force India
Toro Rosso
Caterham
Marussia
HRT
Ferrari

:rolleyes:


:lol: It's pretty apparent what you're trying to do here, Barney old friend.

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#140 pUs

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:45

Lotus
Redbull
Mercedes
Mclaren
Williams
Sauber
Ferrari


*Williams might even be quicker. Hard to determine because the drivers are so poor, same as Sauber.


I agree Ferrari messed up pretty badly in the design of their car which showed in the early races, but come on.. 7th best on current form? Seriously? They have improved it a tiny bit since then, you know.. :stoned:

Edited by pUs, 02 June 2012 - 06:46.


#141 barneyrubble

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:48

Yes they have improved , from being miles behind the top 6, to close. Thats the qualifying order anyway, which is easier to determine. Race is more complicated, and cloudier because of other factors. Im not sure where Ferrari sit in that area actually, we need some proper races and race tracks, might have to wait until after canada.

#142 ali.unal

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:29

Mercedes think they've got a shot of winning in Montreal.

Lotus will need HOT temperatures on Saturday and Sunday. Like they got in Bahrain. (No point in having only hot temperatures during qualifying but not in the race (or vice versa) if you've got an E20, it would seem.)

Massa was quick in Monaco in Q2 and not too bad in Q3...which means that Ferrari are in the hunt now and Alonso's got just a strong a chance of winning as, say, Vettel/Webber or Hamilton or Rosberg/Schumacher.

So why is it happening now? One of F1’s top engineers, Lotus F1′s Alan Permane explains the tyre “lottery” and what’s really going on. He also gives us the inside line on Kimi Raikkonen.

http://soundcloud.co...dcast-june-2012

#143 RealRacing

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 21:29

After Canada>

1. Ferrari/McLaren
2. RBR
3. Lotus
4. Sauber
5. Mercedes



#144 ForzaGTR

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:01

After Canada>

1. Ferrari/McLaren
2. RBR
3. Lotus
4. Sauber
5. Mercedes

:up:

Although, quali is slightly different. More like

Mclaren/RB
Ferrari/Merc
Lotus

#145 Mc_Silver

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:02

Qualifying pace:
1- Red bull
2- Ferrari
3- McLaren
4- Mercedes

Race pace:
1-Lotus
2-Sauber
3-Ferrari
4-McLaren
5-Red Bull
6-Mercedes

Edited by Mc_Silver, 10 June 2012 - 22:03.


#146 jrg19

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:05

Qualifying pace:

1- RedBull
2- Ferrari
3- McLaren
4- Mercedes

Race pace:

1-Ferrari
2-RedBull
3-Lotus
4-McLaren
5-Sauber
6-Mercedes

Edited by jrg19, 10 June 2012 - 22:05.


#147 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:07

you guys are putting mclaren way to high. I mean, seriously, anything better than 8th in race pace is a joke. Button's 16th place proves it is the 8th best car.

#148 velgajski1

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:08

you guys are putting mclaren way to high. I mean, seriously, anything better than 8th in race pace is a joke. Button's 16th place proves it is the 8th best car.


:lol:

#149 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:14

Quali:

RB/McLaren/Ferrari
Mercedes/Lotus/FI
Williams/Sauber
Toro Rosso
The rest

Race:

McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus
RB
Sauber/Mercedes
FI/Williams
TR
The rest

Overall

McLaren/Ferrari
RB/Lotus
Mercedes/Sauber
Williams/FI
Toro Rosso
The rest


#150 Anomnader

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 22:17

Quali:

RB/McLaren/Ferrari
Mercedes/Lotus/FI
Williams/Sauber
Toro Rosso
The rest

Race:

McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus
RB
Sauber/Mercedes
FI/Williams
TR
The rest

Overall

McLaren/Ferrari
RB/Lotus
Mercedes/Sauber
Williams/FI
Toro Rosso
The rest


Redbull so far down?

Are you prechance a Redbull fan?

If they had pitted Vettel ealier he could have challenged for the win, no way is it that much worse then mclaren and ferrari