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Tire performance in China


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Poll: Pirelli race by race - Race 03, China, 1 = get out of here, 10 = fantastic (108 member(s) have cast votes)

Award Points:

  1. 1 (23 votes [21.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.30%

  2. 2 (4 votes [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  3. 3 (8 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. 4 (5 votes [4.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.63%

  5. 5 (5 votes [4.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.63%

  6. 6 (6 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  7. 7 (16 votes [14.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  8. 8 (14 votes [12.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.96%

  9. 9 (5 votes [4.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.63%

  10. 10 (22 votes [20.37%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.37%

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#1 Sakae

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 19:37

PAST RACES

Race 01 _ Australia _ Poll is still active in a separate thread
Race 02 _ Malaysia _ Poll is still active

CURRENT RACE

Race 03 _ China _ Poll is active

I have re-calibrated my vote one notch down from Australia based on assertion how narrow is temperature operating range. Under normal circumstances I would not mind, had the tire 2012 was available for testing in mid 2011, and teams had chance to develop a car around that, but not as it is now. Too much, too late.

Edited by Sakae, 14 April 2012 - 20:23.


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#2 Dunder

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 19:50

Malaysia?

#3 Sakae

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 20:11

Malaysia?

Thanks Dunder.

#4 ViMaMo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39

Bump. It was just ridiculous.

#5 olliek88

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:48

Honestly if the racing is that exciting i wouldn't care if the tyres were made of paper. It helped to make the race fantastic. Also its still anybodies guess which is the better tyre for the race.

#6 Lelouch

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:54

Never expected to give them anything else than 1, but every aspect of this race is a 10 for me.

#7 juandiego

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:57

Bump. It was just ridiculous.

Well, it's been probably the race in which 2 and 3 stops strategy were closer that I can recall. Even though it eventually hurt my driver final result, I've got to admit it produced an excellent race.

#8 BlackCat

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:29

for tyres that do not last race distance i can not give more than zero points. is there any moron around buying pirellis for his/her street car???

#9 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:32

for tyres that do not last race distance i can not give more than zero points. is there any moron around buying pirellis for his/her street car???

I have Pirellis on my bike. Very happy with them, thanks.
I'm not daft enough to think that they're built with 2.5mm of rubber surface and designed to degrade over 20 laps on track.

#10 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:05

The amount of marbles just centimetres off the racing line was dreadful. :down: It was especially detrimental to the race and overtaking opportunities in those corners in sector 2.

On the other hand, there were two very viable strategies - so it wasn't all bad.

#11 Sakae

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:18

Tires are of concern. Vettel in P11? Is he that bad? McLaren has fast car, yet they are all over the place, and it's not drivers, nor the car, it's rubber. Whilst new faces on the grid is entertaining to many, I do not believe that's a healthy and true portrait who is who in this game, and that bothers me, because IMO we are seeing very distorted reality. I do not believe that tires even perform the same way on cars from the same garage.

Another low rating for me.

#12 sv401

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:22

The tyres were not really good. Most of the race was boring, with long trains and little to no overtaking, and at the end of the race the tyres just fell apart for a few drivers who lost 5-10 positions in a few laps with no chance to keep the others behind at all. In hindsight, a 3-stop strategy was better (just like last year), but of course in the middle of the race it was hard to predict exactly how many laps the tyres are going to last. Some gambled on 2-stopping, and lost.


#13 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:25

Tires are of concern. Vettel in P11? Is he that bad? McLaren has fast car, yet they are all over the place, and it's not drivers, nor the car, it's rubber. Whilst new faces on the grid is entertaining to many, I do not believe that's a healthy and true portrait who is who in this game, and that bothers me, because IMO we are seeing very distorted reality. I do not believe that tires even perform the same way on cars from the same garage.

Another low rating for me.

I'll be shocked if it's anything different for any race.

Edited by trogggy, 15 April 2012 - 12:25.


#14 sharo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:29

@Sakae
Sorry, mate, I need my zero :)

The actual fact is that tires have random performance and without a tire war the manufacturer is able to stage an "interesting" championship behind the scenes. Maybe with a whisper from above ...

#15 Roonaldo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:59

The tyres are truly awful, worst part of F1 currently.

It was mentioned in commentary that if a driver pushes too hard, they tyre will overheat and drop off. So we are basically saying drivers have to tip toe round in order to keep the tyre from crapping itself.

If a driver does go for it, he will end up worse off.

I'm sorry, but I want to see drivers driving flat out all the time



#16 Kraken

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:01

for tyres that do not last race distance i can not give more than zero points. is there any moron around buying pirellis for his/her street car???

What on earth has that got to do with it?

As has been said here many, many, many times Pirrelli could make tyres easily last a whole race or a season if required. That's not what they were asked to do though.

There is no motorsport that I'm aware of where you can just thrash the tyres from beginning to end so why should F1 be any different?

#17 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:10

I dislike how terrible anything off the racing line is - it's certainly the worst I've ever seen it. The race was good but we saw again, when everyone was on equal rubber the overtaking was more subdued.

#18 handel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:13

Worst thread I've seen in ages with some particularly ill-informed posts.

I would be better to preface your opinion with WHAT you expect of the tyres and WHY before going on to perform some sort of faux analysis.

For me I expect the tyres to be a constant. Each team should be delivered the same product and like anything else the teams should engineer the cars to maximise the performance of these control parts. The tyres themselves should be performant in terms of laptime and able to last 1/3 of race distance. To this end the tyres are a complete success. Pirelli have not been asked, nor are they expected to deliver a tyre which nullifies any advantage engineers may have regarding fully understanding the product.

An example of this latter point would be the 'window' of the tyres. Pirelli don't owe you a greenhouse. Deal with it.

The only problem these tyres have is the excessive marbling which will no doubt be fairly tricky to solve.

#19 Sakae

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:58

Tires being constant? I think they are always degrading, and there is noting linear in the rate of degradation, therefore they are never constant, and as I suspect, they are far too sensitive to car set up, never-mind design or driving style.

One more, I do not think that anyone is asking Pirelli for a "green house". Missing link in this discussion is understanding what F1 represents to us as individuals. Is it a product - show - which is sold to customers (fans), or is it something else. For me F1 represented a unique world that was very much different to other form of racing, and that aspect is if not totally lost, than very much blurred around the edges, and current specification tire is IMO heavy contributor to that state of mind.

Last point - I do not object narrow temperature operating slot, but please, Mr. Hembery, come clean with your plans soon enough (like eight months in advance of next season), so car could be properly designed around it, and we see racing in March, not more of testing than racing, and pitiful struggle.

I expect tire to be seen, but not heard from; nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Sakae, 15 April 2012 - 14:06.


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#20 sharo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:22

Sakae :up:

We share the same view about racing and "show". Tires must be just that, something to connect the car with the track, not a gamble.

#21 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:29

The tyres are awful. If you even dare push your race will be ruined.

Alot of drivers have talent out there to display but they can't. You will never see stints like when Brawn used to ask Schumacher to do 18 quali lap stint...they were special.

This isn't racing. It's too heavily a tyre management excersise.

Bridgestone control tyres were far better.

The amount of marbles today was a joke, there was only a single racing line and people like Alonso who tried to overtake then suffered for being off the racing line. This is NOT racing.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 14:30.


#22 muramasa

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:30

Tires being constant? I think they are always degrading, and there is noting linear in the rate of degradation, therefore they are never constant, and as I suspect, they are far too sensitive to car set up, never-mind design or driving style.

One more, I do not think that anyone is asking Pirelli for a "green house". Missing link in this discussion is understanding what F1 represents to us as individuals. Is it a product - show - which is sold to customers (fans), or is it something else. For me F1 represented a unique world that was very much different to other form of racing, and that aspect is if not totally lost, than very much blurred around the edges, and current specification tire is IMO heavy contributor to that state of mind.

Last point - I do not object narrow temperature operating slot, but please, Mr. Hembery, come clean with your plans soon enough (like eight months in advance of next season), so car could be properly designed around it, and we see racing in March, not more of testing than racing, and pitiful struggle.

I expect tire to be seen, but not heard from; nothing more, nothing less.


I see what you mean. Abit pain to see that not being involved in fighting/traffic is the fastest way to go. But with gap b/w cars getting so narrow, I dont know what tires and tire manufacturer can do. Make tires last longer, degrade less and operating window larger with cars of this season being so close to each other, the race will be like 2009/10 again, solid but boring. Even DRS and KERS isnt as effective as last year now. What needs to be sorted out is clearly not tires, but car itself, mostly characteristic of aero, imo. F1 needs to stop playing with peripherals such as tire/DRS/KERS and start looking at fundamental.



#23 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:30

The drop is too high when tires are gone. And its too sudden.

#24 sharo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:33

.........
Make tires last longer, degrade less and operating window larger with cars of this season being so close to each other ................


Cars are close exactly due to the unpredictability of the tires.

#25 Darth Sidious

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:51

The tyres are awful. If you even dare push your race will be ruined.

Alot of drivers have talent out there to display but they can't. You will never see stints like when Brawn used to ask Schumacher to do 18 quali lap stint...they were special.

This isn't racing. It's too heavily a tyre management excersise.

Bridgestone control tyres were far better.

The amount of marbles today was a joke, there was only a single racing line and people like Alonso who tried to overtake then suffered for being off the racing line. This is NOT racing.


Totally agree, with the caveat that I haven't watched today's race because, tbh, the way things are, I can't be arsed any more.

Maybe I'll download and watch it later, but maybe instead I'll go to the cinema and watch Hunger Games.

F1 ain't what it used to be and I don;t mean for the better.

Bring back tyres you can race on and refuelling and I might watch races live again.

#26 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:54

Tires should last a stint and not fall of after 10 laps. If i want to watch endurance racing i will watch Lemans. These tires are shackling drivers and i dont like it.

#27 Roonaldo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:28

The tyres are awful. If you even dare push your race will be ruined.

Alot of drivers have talent out there to display but they can't. You will never see stints like when Brawn used to ask Schumacher to do 18 quali lap stint...they were special.

This isn't racing. It's too heavily a tyre management excersise.

Bridgestone control tyres were far better.

The amount of marbles today was a joke, there was only a single racing line and people like Alonso who tried to overtake then suffered for being off the racing line. This is NOT racing.


Exactly, push and you're finished after 5 laps..

Slowly slowly catchy monkey is not F1 in my opinion.

#28 F1ultimate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:46

The tyres are awful. If you even dare push your race will be ruined.

Alot of drivers have talent out there to display but they can't. You will never see stints like when Brawn used to ask Schumacher to do 18 quali lap stint...they were special.

This isn't racing. It's too heavily a tyre management excersise.

Bridgestone control tyres were far better.

The amount of marbles today was a joke, there was only a single racing line and people like Alonso who tried to overtake then suffered for being off the racing line. This is NOT racing.



I agree. The first stint of a race is boring since no driver want to push and subsequently piss off their team by coming in too early for a new set of tires. The scare of having to do one extra unnecessary stop is handicapping drivers.

Bring bak Bridgestone spec please.

#29 pizzalover

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:49

The factors in winning races use to be car 1st, driver 2nd.

Now it's tyre management 1st, car 2nd, driver 3rd.

I guess as far as Pirelli are concerned, there is no such thing as bad publicity. The marbles today were pitiful.

#30 Baddoer

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:57

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#31 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:00

The marbles were insane today! Pirelli will have to do something, because its bullshit, that because of marbles you cant even try to overtake in non-DRS part of the circuits.

#32 handel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:01

Tires being constant? I think they are always degrading, and there is noting linear in the rate of degradation, therefore they are never constant, and as I suspect, they are far too sensitive to car set up, never-mind design or driving style.

One more, I do not think that anyone is asking Pirelli for a "green house". Missing link in this discussion is understanding what F1 represents to us as individuals. Is it a product - show - which is sold to customers (fans), or is it something else. For me F1 represented a unique world that was very much different to other form of racing, and that aspect is if not totally lost, than very much blurred around the edges, and current specification tire is IMO heavy contributor to that state of mind.

Last point - I do not object narrow temperature operating slot, but please, Mr. Hembery, come clean with your plans soon enough (like eight months in advance of next season), so car could be properly designed around it, and we see racing in March, not more of testing than racing, and pitiful struggle.

I expect tire to be seen, but not heard from; nothing more, nothing less.



You've missed the point. Constant i.e. "Each team should be delivered the same product." The tyre wars were poor because everyone had a different product, Ferrari even had the sway to get theirs custom made.

Regarding "understanding what F1 represents to us as individuals" - I agree, people just post their opinion without this preamble, thus their opinion has no context.

#33 gm914

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:02

Worst thread I've seen in ages with some particularly ill-informed posts.

I would be better to preface your opinion with WHAT you expect of the tyres and WHY before going on to perform some sort of faux analysis.

For me I expect the tyres to be a constant. Each team should be delivered the same product and like anything else the teams should engineer the cars to maximise the performance of these control parts. The tyres themselves should be performant in terms of laptime and able to last 1/3 of race distance. To this end the tyres are a complete success. Pirelli have not been asked, nor are they expected to deliver a tyre which nullifies any advantage engineers may have regarding fully understanding the product.

An example of this latter point would be the 'window' of the tyres. Pirelli don't owe you a greenhouse. Deal with it.

The only problem these tyres have is the excessive marbling which will no doubt be fairly tricky to solve.

:up:
Best post in a useless thread.

#34 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:03

The marbles were insane today! Pirelli will have to do something, because its bullshit, that because of marbles you cant even try to overtake in non-DRS part of the circuits.

:up: Imagine that move Alonso pulled on Schumacher back in 130R back in 2005. Not only is that impossible now it seems, but something awful could have happened if that kind of move was tried. These marbles are ridiculous, I just don't know what can be done though.

#35 olliek88

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:06

Pirelli have done exactly as they were asked and they have done a fantastic job.

Some of the racing out their was great to watch and damned entertaining.

The races will calm down a bit once the teams get on top of the 2012 spec tyres, they're very different to last years and the teams are still working out how to get the most of them.

Also i can't think of anything i'd want less than Bridgestone spec tyres back. 2010 was a great year for the championship but how many of the normal dry races were even half as exciting and action packed up and down the field as todays?

Canada. Which was due to the tyres graining on the dodgy track surface resulting in 2-3 stops (familiar?)

And i think thats about it. personally i hope Pirelli keep doing what they are. :up:


#36 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:08

I'm a well known Mozzarelli hater so I give a 0

#37 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:10

I wonder how Canada will be. :well:

#38 olliek88

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:13

:up: Imagine that move Alonso pulled on Schumacher back in 130R back in 2005. Not only is that impossible now it seems, but something awful could have happened if that kind of move was tried. These marbles are ridiculous, I just don't know what can be done though.


Sutil and Koba had a very similar move through 130R last year with debris kicking up everywhere, its still possible to do it, longer duration corners have always had debris thrown up off line.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/15232580

About 6 mins in.

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#39 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:14

Rate the Chinese GP

82% (of a sample 4 times the size of the one here) rated the Chinese GP as 8/10 or higher.
90% rated it as 7/10 or higher.

That says something about the tyres. Probably not what the op wants to hear, admittedly.



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#40 handel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:19

Rate the Chinese GP

82% (of a sample 4 times the size of the one here) rated the Chinese GP as 8/10 or higher.
90% rated it as 7/10 or higher.

That says something about the tyres. Probably not what the op wants to hear, admittedly.


I'm confused about the question the OP is even asking. There's no common metric here because everyone has different priorities regarding what they want to watch. You can't answer a question about tyre performance by giving a rating out of 10 because what you will actually get is a useless mean which forms some kind of 'how happy are people with the tyres' result.

Have a debate by all means, but a poll is rather useless especially in numeric form.

#41 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:21

Rate the Chinese GP

82% (of a sample 4 times the size of the one here) rated the Chinese GP as 8/10 or higher.
90% rated it as 7/10 or higher.

That says something about the tyres. Probably not what the op wants to hear, admittedly.


GP was great, but tires were crap. That poll has nothing to do with tires.

#42 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:27

GP was great, but tires were crap. That poll has nothing to do with tires.

You can't have a great GP if the tyres are crap.


#43 engel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:29

GP was great, but tires were crap. That poll has nothing to do with tires.


Tires where fine, if Lotus is trying to do half the race (28 laps) on USED primes well ... it's not really Pirelli's fault. They weren't asked to design Bridgestone copies, they were specifically asked to design tyres that drop off.

#44 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:30

You can't have a great GP if the tyres are crap.


We just did.

#45 mursuka80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:32

Tires where fine, if Lotus is trying to do half the race (28 laps) on USED primes well ... it's not really Pirelli's fault. They weren't asked to design Bridgestone copies, they were specifically asked to design tyres that drop off.


Even though i have Kimi on my avatar it doesnt mean my bashing of Pirelli is because of him. Drop off is okay, but it should come slowly not suddenly.

Edited by mursuka80, 15 April 2012 - 16:32.


#46 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:35

We just did.

No, that's the whole point.
If by 'the tyres are crap' you mean they're not as good as the Bridgestones (in terms of grip, longevity, whatever) then you'd be right. But they were never supposed to be.
The GP was great. Therefore the tyres did their job.

Maybe the op could clarify exactly what it is that he's asking in his poll.

#47 engel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:36

Even though i have Kimi on my avatar it doesnt mean my bashing of Pirelli is because of him. Drop off is okay, but it should come slowly not suddenly.


Well it's a reasonable assumption since Kimi's were the only tyres than went off the cliff in China ;)

#48 FlashMaster

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:40

10/10. A lot more entertaining than those boring everlasting Bridgestones.

#49 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:16

The racing was exciting compared to the type of racing we have been use to before. But make no mistake, it was as fake as a Linda Lovelace, Ben Dover, Ron Jeremy made for TV orgasm. It was an illusion Mercedes/Rosberg was over there tyre woes, because if Button, Webber, or Hamilton had been able to chase Rosberg down and not been constantly stuck behind slower cars, Rosbergs tyres would have "fell off a cliff", because they would have been unable to sustain the pace needed to stay ahead on a 2 stopper. Racing on the Pirelli's, is all about tyre management and some drivers are better at it than others. Vettel for example was truly impressive considering how long he made the tyres last, but is this racing? What happened to Raikkonen at the end, is this racing? I've been highlighting/complaining/moaning since the beginning of the year, alternate race/tyre strategies are impossible to pull off, "because the tyres simple don't last long enough". Vettel and Raikkonen being a prime example today. Rosberg would have also been added to the list, but as explained above, we know the reason why this never happened. The tyres have definitely improve overtaking, aided by DRS, but can we call some of these overtakes, overtakes, when the driver on fresher tyres simple drives past due to better traction? :well: By having such marginal tyres, I think it is an affront to call it racing? Wacky races is more apt. Exciting and entertaining? YES! Real racing? NO!

Edited by The Ragged Edge, 15 April 2012 - 17:37.


#50 Juggles

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:26

I gave the tyres an 8/10. I loved that there were two viable strategies for the race distance. I deducted points for the marbles and for an excessively narrow operating window.

The fact that the poll is massively skewed in favour of 0 and 10 shows it is completely pointless to even ask the question. People made their minds up long ago and the results have little to do with the individual race.

On the more general tyre debate, I can see both sides. There were times last year when rather than get excited because a driver was closing in on the man in front I would sigh because I knew his tyres would punish him in the long run. On the other hand, I do think tyres should be at least a part of the equation. It's hard to argue that the racing was better in the Bridgestone days.

I also think driver preference plays a massive role in people's opinion of the Pirellis. I would be interested to see how many Button fans have a problem with the Pirellis compared to the Hamilton fans.