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Father and son GP wins


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#51 uechtel

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:17

But was the European GP then part of the World Championship? If so totally relevant to the question if not it is irrellavant. My vague knowledge of the World Championship starts in the late 50s.
The so called modern championship started in the early 50s?


What we try to point out is, that a GP in the twenties was regarded of much HIGHER status than a Chinese GP of today. It was one of three or four events the motor racing world did focus on months before, like Le Mans or the Monte Carlo Rallye. The introduction of the World Championship was not the introduction of a new category of motor sport, but did "connect" events together that previously had been strong enough to stand very much alone.

And sorry, the title of this thread is for "GP" wins - and not for "formula 1 world championship rounds".

Edited by uechtel, 17 April 2012 - 11:19.


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#52 David Beard

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:33

No doubt others will correct me on this, but Nico's victory last weekend is a bit of a milestone, I think it was the first for a German driver in a Grand Prix driving a German car since Hermann Lang's victory at the 1939 Swiss Grand Prix, am I right with that? It all depends on how you define nationality of course, not only with the driver, but also the car, though as the good Dr Lawrence always says, "follow the money".


I can't stop myself from calling the car a Brawn...made in Brackley, of course.
Not sure about the engine. Is that still from Northampton?

Edited by David Beard, 17 April 2012 - 11:34.


#53 kayemod

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:41

I can't stop myself from calling the car a Brawn...made in Brackley, of course.
Not sure about the engine. Is that still from Northampton?


You're referring of course to Brackley in the state of Baden-Württemberg?

You can call the car a Brawn if you want to, but as far as I'm concerned it's a Honda.


#54 David Beard

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:49

You're referring of course to Brackley in the state of Baden-Württemberg?

You can call the car a Brawn if you want to, but as far as I'm concerned it's a Honda.


Not a BAR?

#55 Spaceframe

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:53

Not a BAR?

Rather a Tyrrell ;)

#56 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:02

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
But was the European GP then part of the World Championship? If so totally relevant to the question if not it is irrelevant. My vague knowledge of the World Championship starts in the late 50s. The so called modern championship started in the early 50s?


The title European Grand Prix was bestowed on a major Grand Prix on each of many years. At times it was forgotten, but you find it often in the fifties. It originated in the twenties, died for the thirties and was resurrected in the late forties and ran most years through to 1977.

Later, when there was money to be made out of the German's love for Michael Schumacher winning races on his home soil, they instituted a European Grand Prix which was really a second annual German Grand Prix.

Of interest, the Ascaris both won the European Grand Prix when it was held as the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa. Like Stan and Alan Jones, the Ascaris also won their home Grand Prix.

#57 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:31

I think that his place of birth (Wiesbaden) and Dad's nationality means that Nico gets dual nationality, though last I heard, he hardly spoke any Finnish at all.

Finland has native Swedish-speakers as well as Finnish and, to judge by his name, Rosberg senior would not speak much Finnish in the first place.
Swedish has much more in common with German (from their origins) than Finnish, which is quite different.

#58 uechtel

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:43

I think that his place of birth (Wiesbaden) and Dad's nationality means that Nico gets dual nationality, though last I heard, he hardly spoke any Finnish at all.


From http://www.hs.fi/eng...e/1101981166932:

"Nico Rosberg was born on June 27th, 1985, in Wiesbaden, Germany. The son of Finland's first Formula One World Champion Keijo "Keke" Rosberg (who won the title with Williams in 1982), Nico grew up in a cosmopolitan household. His mother Sina is German, and German is also the family's first language.

For all that, Nico Rosberg spent his childhood in French-speaking Monaco and attended the International School in Nice. This sort of background has made him into a citizen of the world, speaking fluent German, English, French, and Italian. But not Finnish.

Rosberg Jr.'s childhood has created for him an identity that he regards simply as "European""


#59 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:56

Finland has native Swedish-speakers as well as Finnish and, to judge by his name, Rosberg senior would not speak much Finnish in the first place.
Swedish has much more in common with German (from their origins) than Finnish, which is quite different.


I can assure you that Keke speaks Finnish fluently, as I just happened to witness on a YouTube clip I watched a week or two ago. Funny thing, after so many years of hearing him speak English or German, this was the first time I ever heard him speak his native language, and the first time I understood bugger all! :D

I am always puzzled as Rosberg Jnr being a German rather than a Finn. I would think most folk would take their father's nationality rather than from the place of birth.


Well, there's always a fifty-fifty chance if your parents are from different countries...  ;)

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#60 David Beard

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:45

As an aside, why haven't we seen Keke at a GP for ages?

#61 Rob

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:11

For all that, Nico Rosberg spent his childhood in French-speaking Monaco and attended the International School in Nice. This sort of background has made him into a citizen of the world, speaking fluent German, English, French, and Italian. But not Finnish.

Rosberg Jr.'s childhood has created for him an identity that he regards simply as "European""


Sounds very much like Bertrand Gachot.

#62 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:15

As an aside, why haven't we seen Keke at a GP for ages?

I think this keeps him rather busy: http://www.rosberg.d...dex.php?m=3&l=2

Pretty sure I saw him at at least one GP last year though, but he's by no means as high-profile as Messrs Button, Hamilton and Massa Sr.

#63 ensign14

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:34

Sounds very much like Bertrand Gachot.

French father, Belgian mother, Luxembourgeois birthplace, British criminal record. :cool:

#64 macoran

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:51

French father, Belgian mother, Luxembourgeois birthplace, British criminal record. :cool:

No wonder, mixed-up kid !!

#65 macoran

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:53

high-profile as Messrs Button, Hamilton and Massa Sr.

= show-off types !

#66 Amphicar

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 20:10

I can't stop myself from calling the car a Brawn...made in Brackley, of course.
Not sure about the engine. Is that still from Northampton?

Northampton no - Northamptonshire yes (Brixworth to be precise) by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains: http://www.mercedes-...hpp.com/v/home/

#67 D-Type

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 20:28

When Keke won the World Championship, the FIA conducted the whole prizegiving ceremony in French. So Keke being Keke he made his acceptance speech in Finnish, and Swedish, and German, and English. He is one driver that I would like to meet socially.


#68 David Beard

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 20:36

When Keke won the World Championship, the FIA conducted the whole prizegiving ceremony in French. So Keke being Keke he made his acceptance speech in Finnish, and Swedish, and German, and English. He is one driver that I would like to meet socially.


Me too. Best I've managed is an exchange of E Mails on our 60th birthdays.

Not heard that story before Duncan, I like it :)

Edited by David Beard, 17 April 2012 - 20:38.


#69 D-Type

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 20:52

Provenance: Nigel Roebuck in Grand Prix Greats - he told it better.

There's others but I'll save them for a Keke thread

#70 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 22:55

I think this keeps him rather busy: http://www.rosberg.d...dex.php?m=3&l=2

Pretty sure I saw him at at least one GP last year though, but he's by no means as high-profile as Messrs Button, Hamilton and Massa Sr.

I hate websites that the adverts take over the object of the exercise. And I could not get rid of them.

#71 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:33

How about them indeed? :confused:

DCN



Michael Andretti may not have won a GP, but I do recall him finishing first a couple of times - about an hour and a half before the race winner.



I bid two Brabhams, an Andretti and a Piquet.


Ah, the eurocentrics strike again. Oh Ye of little faith, Michael Andretti was a multiple Grand Prix winner in his days, winning the Long Beach GP, Australian Indy Car GP, Cleveland GP, Meadowlands US GP, two Detroit, Nazareth and Monterey GPs each. Granted, his F1 showings weren't that stellar, but still a lot better than Fangio's in Indy Cars. Or Schumacher, Senna, Rosberg, what have you...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 18 April 2012 - 08:35.


#72 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:08

Ah, the eurocentrics strike again. Oh Ye of little faith, Michael Andretti was a multiple Grand Prix winner in his days, winning the Long Beach GP, Australian Indy Car GP, Cleveland GP, Meadowlands US GP, two Detroit, Nazareth and Monterey GPs each. Granted, his F1 showings weren't that stellar, but still a lot better than Fangio's in Indy Cars. Or Schumacher, Senna, Rosberg, what have you...

WTF has Indy Car races got to do with F1 GPs. A different level of racing in different cars and disciplines.
Fangio, Senna, Rosberg etc never drove Indy Cars. not to say they may not have been interested but trying to race in 2 different series and different forms of racing seldom ever happened. Early 60s with Black Jack, Jim clark and Mclaren? Less races then ofcourse.
And yes Michael Andretti was not good enough in F1. But Villenueve was. As was Nigel Mansell to be the holder of both series for a short period.
Or Alex Zanardi, who drove competently though was probably too relaxed for F1.Or Montoya. Or the other way with Eddie Cheever, Franchitti, Johansen and a few others inc Dan Wheldon.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 18 April 2012 - 09:26.


#73 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:14

Originally posted by Regazzoni
.....As far as the Ascaris and Joneses, I have always read that Antonio was a top, world-class driver in his era who maybe, with due respect, Stan Jones was not?


There are many who felt Stan Jones was good enough...

He raced very successfully against Brabham many times before Brabham went to Europe. I think you'll find he was the last man ever to win a contemporary race in a 250F and beat a Cooper Climax to do it. Well, no, he wasn't... there was another one a few weeks later at Bathurst.

All the same, he was a man nobody discounted in Australian racing.

#74 Rob

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:17

French father, Belgian mother, Luxembourgeois birthplace, British criminal record. :cool:


I recall reading an interview with him several years ago where he said that he'd lived in several other European countries as well, so he felt more like a citizen of Europe than having an allegiance to any particular country. An interesting character. I bet if his offence was committed now, he'd have received a much more lenient sentence.

#75 Lola5000

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:21

There are many who felt Stan Jones was good enough...

He raced very successfully against Brabham many times before Brabham went to Europe. I think you'll find he was the last man ever to win a contemporary race in a 250F and beat a Cooper Climax to do it. Well, no, he wasn't... there was another one a few weeks later at Bathurst.

All the same, he was a man nobody discounted in Australian racing.

I've always thought that Stan Jones while not a Moss,he would have been more then capable of being a strong mid field GP driver in the right car like his 250F.

#76 BRG

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:46

Ah, the eurocentrics strike again. Oh Ye of little faith, Michael Andretti was a multiple Grand Prix winner in his days, winning the Long Beach GP, Australian Indy Car GP, Cleveland GP, Meadowlands US GP, two Detroit, Nazareth and Monterey GPs each. Granted, his F1 showings weren't that stellar, but still a lot better than Fangio's in Indy Cars. Or Schumacher, Senna, Rosberg, what have you...

I'll have you know that the Brabhams, Andretti and Piquet all failed to win GPs OUTSIDE Europe as well as inside.




Oh, I see, you were bringing in domestic club racing in the US...... ;)

#77 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:06

There are many who felt Stan Jones was good enough...

He raced very successfully against Brabham many times before Brabham went to Europe. I think you'll find he was the last man ever to win a contemporary race in a 250F and beat a Cooper Climax to do it. Well, no, he wasn't... there was another one a few weeks later at Bathurst.

All the same, he was a man nobody discounted in Australian racing.

During 1956 Jones and Reg Hunt, both in near-new 250Fs, were pretty much on a par. But when Hunt was given a few laps in one of the works cars at Albert Park he was seconds off the pace of Moss and Behra, so presumably Jones would have been too

But I can't disagree with your last sentence

#78 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:08

Ah, the eurocentrics strike again. Oh Ye of little faith, Michael Andretti was a multiple Grand Prix winner in his days, winning the Long Beach GP, Australian Indy Car GP, Cleveland GP, Meadowlands US GP, two Detroit, Nazareth and Monterey GPs each. Granted, his F1 showings weren't that stellar, but still a lot better than Fangio's in Indy Cars. Or Schumacher, Senna, Rosberg, what have you...

I'm sure this was posted in comparison to the statements that the Joneses father and son were GP winners. If they can qualify, so can the Andrettis :)

#79 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:37

Alan Jones won F1 races and Stan won a domestic GP, as did Alan. So are not included in the count.
Mario also won F1 races and Michael did not so is not counted at all.
Father and son F1 competitors are not that uncommon, or even brothers.

The Ascaris it seem won the earlier versions of F1 so are as is the Hills and Villenueves. And Rosbergs.
Local Indy car events have no relevance to this thread at all, in fact were just normal series races called a GP. Not the top of the range national race.
There is Midget GPs, Kart GPs, Sprintcar GPs. I have even seen Formula Rord GPs mentioned

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#80 nicanary

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:56

Re #73 - sorry to be pedantic, but the whole thread seems to be going that way.
Fangio DID drive an Indy car, but not in an American race - Race of Two Worlds, Monza,1958. Yah boo sucks.

#81 DogEarred

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:13

Re #73 - sorry to be pedantic, but the whole thread seems to be going that way.
Fangio DID drive an Indy car, but not in an American race - Race of Two Worlds, Monza,1958. Yah boo sucks.


Ayrton Senna did in fact test an Indycar once & was quite impressed apparently.
Somebody here will know the details, no doubt.

#82 ensign14

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:29

It's all a question of eiusdem generis.

#83 kayemod

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:37

Fangio DID drive an Indy car, but not in an American race - Race of Two Worlds, Monza,1958. Yah boo sucks.


Well indeed, and "Yah boo sucks" to you too. The Race of Two Worlds flop is well documented, Fangio started by setting the fastest time, but a succession of holed pistons meant that he had to sit out the first two heats, and retired early with yet more holed pistons in the third. Far more significant though is the fact that The Great Man was actually entered for the Indianapolis 500 in 1958, partly in response to a misguided and misinformed campaign by Floyd Clymer, who rather foolishly called Fangio a "phoney world champion". The very thought. Anyway, JMF did practice for the 58 Indy 500, passed the insulting rookie test easily, and set competitive times. The car was a three year old worn out dog however, and JMF had little confidence in the team or its mechanics, so decided that the whole enterprise was a waste of his time, especially as in the world outside Indy he hardly needed to prove himself. Conflicting fuel contracts would have stopped everything before the race in any event.


#84 uechtel

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:27

What we try to point out is, that a GP in the twenties was regarded of much HIGHER status than a Chinese GP of today.


And even Mr. Ecclestone finally seems to have recognized this. I read a gmx headline of today (http://www.gmx.net/t...and-slam-tennis, of course in German), that he says, that he can imagine to reward the more important GP events like Monaco with more points than the races in Korea and India, which are of less value.

Hm. Wasn´t it Mr. Ecclestone himself who de-valued those tradional events like the French, Dutch, South African, Argentinian etc. Grands Prix by the sheer inflation of events and by replacing them with motorsport strongholds like Bahrein, Singapur and Abu Dhabi? My proposal to Bernie, just scratch all those retort circuits from the calendar and that´s it.

#85 kayemod

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:48

It's all a question of eiusdem generis.


Te legalium hominum, tu talis vexo!

#86 Lola5000

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:01

During 1956 Jones and Reg Hunt, both in near-new 250Fs, were pretty much on a par. But when Hunt was given a few laps in one of the works cars at Albert Park he was seconds off the pace of Moss and Behra, so presumably Jones would have been too

But I can't disagree with your last sentence

David,do we know what races Jones ran the 3.0 litre engine at?
I always thought it was a shame Hunt retired as i think he had the money to beat Jones plus its a shame Whiteford never bought one a 250F,now that would have been a few good seasons 3 x 250fs with 3 Victorians carving each other up.
For my money Whiteford would have come out on top.

#87 David McKinney

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:59

I think the 300S engine was used only at Caversham (AGP) and Albert Park in March 1957. By Bathurst he had the 2½ back in place
He may have used the bigger motor on the odd later occasion that wasn't reported...
Agree with you about Whiteford...

#88 Lola5000

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:07

I think the 300S engine was used only at Caversham (AGP) and Albert Park in March 1957. By Bathurst he had the 2½ back in place
He may have used the bigger motor on the odd later occasion that wasn't reported...
Agree with you about Whiteford...

Someone within the system should contact either Mr Hunt or his son and try and get some of his thoughts to paper re the 250f's racing Jones ect as he is one of the last of the greats of that period still alive.
I've still got to go to my fathers home and pick up his photos of the Albert park years,might get his thoughts on Jones,Hunt and Whiteford as he knew them all very well.

#89 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:49

I agree entirely about getting Reg Hunt's memories down...

I visited him about ten years ago, I should do it again.

#90 Lola5000

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:06

I agree entirely about getting Reg Hunt's memories down...

I visited him about ten years ago, I should do it again.

I might get Lola Bob M to go and see him,as there is a friendship there from memory.

#91 nicanary

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:41

Sorry,Kayemod, I'd forgotten about that in my anxious reaction to a previous post.

Just seems that sometimes the young 'uns think racing started in 1950. Rose-tinted specs mean I react to criticism of the golden-era.