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#1 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:56

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98921

I watched the BTCC races from Donnington the other evening and whilst I admire the courage and determination of many of the drivers, isn't it about time the commentators and the authorities finally used the word CHEATING to describe some of the ever-so-forceful driving tactics. As was said, it's not supposed to be a contact sport, although it's had it's fair share of clashes over the years, but Plato's tactics with Sheddon, who he nudged all the way down the straight until Sheddon had to go straight on allowing Plato through to second place, is simply put CHEATING. Just as if a footballer falls in the penalty area having received just the slightest of touches, to get an unwarranted penalty, it's CHEATING and the sooner people stop using the over-used term RACING INCIDENT and substituted the word CHEATING, the sooner something will get done about it. Plato's big crash in the second race he described as a racing incident. He'd come out of a lefthand bend and even though there was another car almost alongside, he tried to slice his nose off. BULLYING in fact.

I guess in an event where the differences between the various cars is so minute, some drivers choose to take desperate measures.

Edited by Paul Rochdale, 18 April 2012 - 07:56.


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#2 E1pix

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:09

Didn't see this race, but I call any driving like that "cheating" as well.

Winning at all costs isn't winning at all.

#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:19

As I wrote a couple of weeks ago in another thread:

Channel-chopping, I happened to see some racing at Brands bash on the TV yesterday. The saloon car racers that I saw were operating it as a contact sport so there was a lot more going off than I remember from the old days when driver safety was more marginal. To me the whole idea of motor racing includes coping with the demands of the circuit and the presence of other competitors.


That's why I don't normally watch those races on the television much less pay to go and see them.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 18 April 2012 - 08:20.


#4 Stephen W

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:26

Totally agree - I cannot understand why Plato wasn't disqualified. His feeble attempt to blame Sheddon is totally reprehensible. If I had been the Clerk in charge I would have disqualified Plato and suspended him for the next 2 meetings. However I guess TOCA wouldn't want MG pulling out so Plato stays to continue his bullying tactics.

BTW Plato is always the first to cry foul when he is bumped yet he cannot understand why when he does it others complain. Spoilt Brat!

:mad:

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:36

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:01

It becomes worse when the commentary tends to congratulate the cheater on his 'clever' moves...

We see a lot of this here with the V8Stupidcars.

And then the infamous commentator nick-named some of them, names like 'The Enforcer' and 'The Baby-Faced Assassin' are not worthy of the driving talents of the drivers, but if they truly suggest their on-track antics then they are leaning more towards disgraceful.

#7 bill p

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:04

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?


Yes, what has this to do with "The Nostlagia Forum"??

#8 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:12

One for racing? comments
Though about another waste of time demo derby series in controlled contrived entertainment?

#9 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:19

Yes, what has this to do with "The Nostlagia Forum"??

Well, that's a reasonable question.
I joined in this thread to point out one way in which "they" used to approach motor racing that seems to be no longer the norm, i.e. recognising that other competitors were there and the circuit was the shape that it was and coping properly with both.
Even in effone we are so used to bumping and boring nowadays that a race such as the Chinese GP last weekend where several competitors actually raced each other without punting off/being punted off is hailed as good on TNF - we are sometimes allowed to view the present through nostalgic eyes.

#10 john winfield

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:34

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?


....because it cunningly starts us thinking whether saloon racers of earlier eras leaned on each other or kept their distance. Go on David, let it go, just this once.

I seem to remember the RAC Saloons of the early 1970s getting pretty hairy, particularly on tighter circuits where the bigger Escorts and Capris could challenge the Camaros and Mustangs, and the smaller Escorts and Minis could chip away at the category above.

#11 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:35

Nostalgia is when we remember what was "going on" at the track.

Today motor racing is about what was "going off".

#12 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:51

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?

The nostalgia for me is the memory of being able to drive my only car in Australian Touring Car Championship races, and drive home again, damage-free......50 years ago.


#13 Bill Becketts

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:55

From a TNF point of view, I remember Marshalling 20 odd years ago at Copse and reporting via radio to Race Control that one Competitor was actively pushing another car off the track. I expected nothing to be done as we knew the organisers turned a blind eye to anything less than a heavy impact. Of course nothing was done and I believe he won the race.

Yes it was BTCC and the perpetrator now commentates for these races....

#14 BRG

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:39

Indeed, it is nothing new. I remember being at the BTCC race at the Birmingham Superprix and Robb Gravett came back form the race with blue paint all over the back bumper of his white Sierra where Andy Rouse had been pushing him for half the race. Rouse was an animal in the same way back then that Plato is now. If officialdom had stamped on it hard when it started, maybe we wouldn't have this cynical stuff now.

#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:44

Rouse was an animal ...

Not for nothing was he known as Randy Mouse.

#16 jatwarks

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:28

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?

I think that, like me, the posters here can't bear to waste their time posting to the Racing Comments board; The attitudes there are such that I fear for our future generations!

#17 byrkus

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:36

And then the infamous commentator nick-named some of them, names like 'The Enforcer' and 'The Baby-Faced Assassin' are not worthy of the driving talents of the drivers, but if they truly suggest their on-track antics then they are leaning more towards disgraceful.


There was also, of course, an American driver whom they called "The Intimidator"...


#18 thiscocks

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:02

Agree, watched the last Donnington race and thought Platos 'move' on Shedden at the end was pretty ridiculous. He needs to be hit with more penalties as he just seems to think that kind of driving is ok. Very poor racer.

#19 nicanary

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:07

I have been posting forcefully on this subject on a different website, and the argument was joined by a certain Mr. J.Fitzpatrick. At the time there were two points of view being bandied about, one by those who look upon the series as an entertainment, and the other by the "old hands",such as those who subscribe to this forum.

Mr. F. confirmed what I'm sure most of us feel about the whole thing.I go back to the days of the Jag Mk.VII, and from that day until the 80s all we saw was a bit of doorhandle-rubbing.Roy Salvadori was no shrinking violet, but even he wouldn't have condoned today's antics.The penalties for these dodgem-car drivers seem to be fines and/or time added on. I say - wehat's wrong with a black flag?

The excuses all seem to be based around the rationale that this is not a typical race series, and that it's all good for entertainment.I doubt if this forum will have much nostalgia for the series in years to come.

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#20 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:51

"And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?"

Good grief, calm down old chap. Judging by the replies it's a subject which interests (and worries) quite a few of us.


#21 Bloggsworth

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:39

I would have penalised Sheddon for blocking... BTCC needs a one move rule.

#22 Sharman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:46

I read somewhere that contact was encouraged by the organisers

#23 nicanary

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 13:49

I've received a personal message from another forum-member asking about another website where this is being debated.

The word I used on that site was also "cheating". There's no excuse. It's nothing to do with misjudged braking, or miscalculating the available gap - it's deliberate and cynical. I can only assume that those who enjoy it and flock in their thousands, are the same people who buy those dumb Dvds "The very best of crash 199". It's crass.

#24 RS2000

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 14:09

The reason it happens? Conflict of interest between the series promoter and the MSA? (a strange "two jobs" for one man...). Lack of MSA (the Civil Service) accountability through lack of credible democracy in "election" (selection?) of the (allegedly) controlling MSC (Parliament).


#25 Paul Parker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 14:13

Totally agree - I cannot understand why Plato wasn't disqualified. His feeble attempt to blame Sheddon is totally reprehensible. If I had been the Clerk in charge I would have disqualified Plato and suspended him for the next 2 meetings. However I guess TOCA wouldn't want MG pulling out so Plato stays to continue his bullying tactics.

BTW Plato is always the first to cry foul when he is bumped yet he cannot understand why when he does it others complain. Spoilt Brat!

:mad:


I do not condone Jason Plato's actions at Donington but I believe that Gordon Sheddon should have been penalised too for consistently and deliberately blocking the road every time that Plato attempted to pass. JP was prevented from winning because of this and whilst some tactical driving is acceptable and inevitable the tactics over the last 20 odd years in touring car racing have gradually evolved into all out obstruction and worse; these two are not the only offenders.

In previous decades there were, as many know, some very ruthless driving, but such antics were extremely perilous and thankfully rare with exception as any collision or impact could easily have very serious or fatal consequences. Today it usually ends only in bent motor cars and bruised egos but in my opinion both parties are guilty in cases such as this.


#26 Sharman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:12

Professional motorsport is no longer a sport. Discuss

#27 Red Socks

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:33

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?

Maybe David becuase recently whilst reading a sixties copy of Veteran and Vintage an article written by the first CofC told how the first Shelsly hillclimb was handicapped by engine capacity ,number of seats and weight. He then went on to recall how several cars seemed to empty their various and assorted water containers between point of weigh and start of competition.
Cheating it seems is endemic to the sport ab initio

#28 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:46

Professional motorsport is no longer a sport. Discuss


Discuss? Period!

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:16

Maybe David becuase recently whilst reading a sixties copy of Veteran and Vintage an article written by the first CofC told how the first Shelsly hillclimb was handicapped by engine capacity ,number of seats and weight. He then went on to recall how several cars seemed to empty their various and assorted water containers between point of weigh and start of competition.
Cheating it seems is endemic to the sport ab initio

I was basing my comment on the first few posts, not on the thread title


#30 Sharman

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:51

Discuss? Period!

I should point out that the hypothesis is not a subject for discussion under the banner of English Grammar. More properly it may be found in the syllabus of the P,P&E Course.

#31 jatwarks

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:29

I can only assume that those who enjoy it and flock in their thousands, are the same people who buy those dumb Dvds "The very best of crash 199". It's crass.

Perhaps that's it; attract the video game obsessives to live events.

I've mentioned before that I think live motorsport will face a challenge in the near future from the gaming community; some youngsters would rather compete in online virtual racing than get involved in the real thing. Nic Hamilton was encouraged to race by his gaming skills! The path to F1 at the moment starts with karting; how long before an online gaming champion successfully transfers their skills to the track?

I mention this here because, if and when it happens, will they bring their crash-bang gaming 'manners' with them?

#32 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:59

A certain measure of skill is required to get past past a car of similar performance, without making contact. Very little skill is needed to 'punt' another car off the track.

#33 E1pix

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:02

I hate cheaters, liars, and thieves. Same category.

Just sayin'. :)

#34 nmansellfan

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:17

The path to F1 at the moment starts with karting; how long before an online gaming champion successfully transfers their skills to the track?


One aready has - Lucas Ordonez, the 2011 ILMC LMP2 champion, won the 2008 Grand Turismo Academy competion - the first prize was a drive in the 24 hours of Dubai. The first round of the competition was to set a lap time on Grand Turismo Prologue for the PS3.

Edited by nmansellfan, 19 April 2012 - 09:17.


#35 arttidesco

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:41

I've always understood most forms of motorsport to be non contact sports but I suspect that does not go down well with those manipulating the great wonder drug 'television'.

Barging fellow competitors off track is bullying plain and simple, which is why I have no time for a particular Brazilian who displayed a propensity for this kind of cheating when ever he was getting whipped on the track in Formula 3 by Martin Brundle.

Since some drivers no longer pride themselves on racing fair and square and bringing undamaged sheet metal across the finish line maybe it is time a one defensive maneuver rule was applied across the board in motorsports, thus eliminating the need for bully boy cheating.



#36 Stephen W

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:32

And this is nostalgia - how, exactly?


Yes, what has this to do with "The Nostlagia Forum"??


As I see it the "nostalgia" element comes in when comparing the dubious tactics employed now with how racing was. Let's face it the definition of nostalgia is a feeling of affection for the past and sadness that things have changed. Thus the changes trigger nostalgia!

I do not condone Jason Plato's actions at Donington but I believe that Gordon Sheddon should have been penalised too for consistently and deliberately blocking the road every time that Plato attempted to pass. JP was prevented from winning because of this and whilst some tactical driving is acceptable and inevitable the tactics over the last 20 odd years in touring car racing have gradually evolved into all out obstruction and worse; these two are not the only offenders.


Under the cirrent regulations i understand that a driver is allowed to make one move to defend his place. After clearing Coppice Corner Sheddon moved over to the right hand side of the track and stayed there. I don't consider that "blocking the road".

Edited by Stephen W, 19 April 2012 - 10:32.


#37 jatwarks

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:42

Since some drivers no longer pride themselves on racing fair and square and bringing undamaged sheet metal across the finish line maybe it is time a one defensive maneuver rule was applied across the board in motorsports, thus eliminating the need for bully boy cheating.

It just needs officials to state in the drivers briefing that intentional contact is unacceptable, and to penalise those who use it.

#38 backfire

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:43

Two factors with modern racing over our beloved old days, equal performance and driver safety. Plato was making spectacular progress until he got to Sheddon who blocked him (nothing wrong with that) and the frustration stepped in. Last year Plato stepped away from a monumental shunt at the same circuit without a mark - in a pre-war car it could have been fatal.

#39 nicanary

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:34

I've always understood most forms of motorsport to be non contact sports but I suspect that does not go down well with those manipulating the great wonder drug 'television'.

Barging fellow competitors off track is bullying plain and simple, which is why I have no time for a particular Brazilian who displayed a propensity for this kind of cheating when ever he was getting whipped on the track in Formula 3 by Martin Brundle.

Since some drivers no longer pride themselves on racing fair and square and bringing undamaged sheet metal across the finish line maybe it is time a one defensive maneuver rule was applied across the board in motorsports, thus eliminating the need for bully boy cheating.



The Brazilian you are inferring was also one of the finest talents that motor sport has ever seen - and that's the tragedy of it all. He didn't need to do those things, he was good enough to win without cheating. Ditto J.Plato, who seems to be the arch-villain at the moment. He executed some fine clean moves until his habitual aberration. There's simply no need for it all,UNLESS that's what the organisers want? Hmmm....

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#40 elansprint72

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:50

In the old days (sorry, feeling a bit nostalgic) when I wanted to see some Stock Car racing I went to Belle Vue; when I wanted Saloon Car racing I went to Aintree or Oulton. It's all got a bit mixed up now.

I stopped going to bang 'n bash BTCC events when the Sierras were current and yet I still love tin-top racing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the driver has to stand the cost of competing?

#41 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 15:01

As I see it the "nostalgia" element comes in when comparing the dubious tactics employed now with how racing was. Let's face it the definition of nostalgia is a feeling of affection for the past and sadness that things have changed. Thus the changes trigger nostalgia!



Under the cirrent regulations i understand that a driver is allowed to make one move to defend his place. After clearing Coppice Corner Sheddon moved over to the right hand side of the track and stayed there. I don't consider that "blocking the road".


Perhaps so but that was only one lap, the fact is that the Honda was deliberately placed in the way to prevent Plato from passing on other laps and would have continued if the race had been any longer.

This is not motor racing, it is deliberate obstruction and I repeat, I am not condoning Plato's actions but I believe Sheddon's antics were also unacceptable, as indeed are those of many other touring car drivers on occasion. This has nothing to do with nostalgia either, it has become over time legitimised by the absence of any suitably punitive punishment for doing so.

If you want to plough the past there were plenty of FF and F3 drivers equally guilty of kamikaze and bullying tactics and sod the consequences, who took this into F1 as we all know and unfortunately were allowed to get away with it.

#42 Sharman

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 16:29

The Brazilian you are inferring was also one of the finest talents that motor sport has ever seen - and that's the tragedy of it all. He didn't need to do those things, he was good enough to win without cheating. Ditto J.Plato, who seems to be the arch-villain at the moment. He executed some fine clean moves until his habitual aberration. There's simply no need for it all,UNLESS that's what the organisers want? Hmmm....


May I refer you to post 22

#43 Frank S

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:38

It was impressed on me that in "road racing" one stayed on the road and did the best one could. I remember a particular occasion when a golden-haired (not literally: read "favorite") driver short-cut a road course and won a race. I thought he was sure to be disqualified. He wasn't. I reckoned - and still believe - that was the beginning of the end, sportsmanship-wise.

Graham Rahal is "on probation" for his antics at Long Beach last weekend, and so he should be, if not worse. His attitude was reflected in a post-incident interview where he whinged he was the victim of prejudice because the other driver is a member of a particular racing family. Do you suppose that pipe dream came to him out of the blue? I wouldn't be surprised if such sentiments were widespread throughout racing.

Of course it probably has always been that way, and I just didn't believe it could happen right in front of Bog and everyone, and go unpunished. But there it is, and there you are, and there we go.

Seems to me the rewards in racing have changed. When I loved it, drivers did it for the pleasure of doing it, in addition to the accomplishments, the fame, and the monetary rewards. Now the pleasure seems to be in the last three terms, with the first pretty much gone by the boards.

#44 E1pix

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:52

Graham Rahal is "on probation" for his antics at Long Beach last weekend, and so he should be, if not worse. His attitude was reflected in a post-incident interview where he whinged he was the victim of prejudice because the other driver is a member of a particular racing family. Do you suppose that pipe dream came to him out of the blue? I wouldn't be surprised if such sentiments were widespread throughout racing.

Seems to me the rewards in racing have changed. When I loved it, drivers did it for the pleasure of doing it, in addition to the accomplishments, the fame, and the monetary rewards. Now the pleasure seems to be in the last three terms, with the first pretty much gone by the boards.

Totally agree, Frank. That was a ridiculous incident, and as usual with these two, both players made me not so "proud." As a lifetime fan of Mario, the trickle-down effect stopped with Michael. Do us proud, Josef Newgarden and JR Hildebrand!

Per your second point, the lack of #1 is why we can't produce an F1 driver... #3 and #4 seem to be the prime motivators for our own now... especially #4. Conor Daly does look good, however.

#45 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:43

https://www.google.c...00bbd9abaf93f03

#46 LittleChris

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:59

I thought the reason that those hideously ugly cars had the rear bumpers / fenders attached was to prevent the car behind rubbing its front wheel on the rear wheel of the car in front and taking off ? Doesn't seem to have worked very well in the Rahal / Andretti shunt as far as I can see........

#47 Stephen W

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:25

This is not motor racing, it is deliberate obstruction and I repeat, I am not condoning Plato's actions but I believe Sheddon's antics were also unacceptable, as indeed are those of many other touring car drivers on occasion. This has nothing to do with nostalgia either, it has become over time legitimised by the absence of any suitably punitive punishment for doing so.


I agree that BTCC has far too much contact and illegal blocking. I also agree that the lack of punishment is the main reason that it continues! I also believe that with this display being televised then youngsters watching it will be led to believe this is the norm!

We need to return to the values of the past - Nostalgic enough?

:wave:

#48 E1pix

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:29

We need to return to the values of the past - Nostalgic enough?

:wave:

You got that right. :up:

#49 RS2000

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 14:13

Unfortunately it's the values of the past - an unelected and unaccountable (by any reasonable definition) governing body - that are the problem.

#50 Paul Parker

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 15:02

I agree that BTCC has far too much contact and illegal blocking. I also agree that the lack of punishment is the main reason that it continues! I also believe that with this display being televised then youngsters watching it will be led to believe this is the norm!

We need to return to the values of the past - Nostalgic enough?

:wave:


I am not actually bothered about nostalgia per se in this regard, it was in response to your original comment.