83 replies to this topic

[Landsem]

I am working on my third book, this time concerning the most famous six-wheelers in history. Four of these are from the world of Formula One.
These came from Tyrrell, March, Ferrari and Williams. Therefore I was hoping some of the Forum readers might have images of these cars, that I could use with their permission in the book. Every photo used will be credited.

The Tyrrell raced for two seasons, and hopefully some of you have photos of the P34 from 1976 or 1977.
The other ones never raced in Formula One, but the March did a few hillclimbs, so perhaps some of you have photos of it from those events?

All photos are of interest, (including pics of cars like the Panther Six, Wolfrace Sonic or Range Rover 6x6 cars) so don't hesitate to contact me if you have any.

Please contact me at: alandsem@online.no

Arnstein

[Ray Bell]

The Mercedes doesn't rate a mention?

That's a shame, it was pretty innovative for its day...

[elansprint72]

Thomas the Tank Engine?

[fbarrett]

The Mercedes doesn't rate a mention?

Franco's example was totally restored by Daimler-Benz some years ago, and their archive will have excellent photos. The car was featured in The Star, the magazine of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, about half a dozen years ago.

Frank

[Gary C]

I have some P34 photos (Depailler and Peterson), how much are you paying?

[E1pix]

I have some P34 photos (Depailler and Peterson), how much are you paying?

Me too, and a fair question I was just asking myself...


[Edit: Gary C., your site's McLarens are an M6B front, M8D rear]

Edited by E1pix, 19 April 2012 - 03:45.

[rwills]

I own the Depailler car - 34/2. Get in contact if interested.

Roger

[Landsem]

The Mercedes doesn't rate a mention?

That's a shame, it was pretty innovative for its day...

The Mercedes will of course be in there, as well as many others.

[Landsem]

I have some P34 photos (Depailler and Peterson), how much are you paying?

Unfortunately I cannot pay any money for the photos. With books that deal with special subjects like this, sales are very low.
So low that the author hardly makes any money at all. It would be different if the subject was the Porsche 911 or various supercars, but obscure six-wheelers do not make it to number one on the sales lists.
This is a labour of love, and not something I do to make money.

[Pullman99]

Sounds an interesting book in the making. Just wondered - if you're covering subjects beyond F1 as stated - whether or not you would include the tr-axle Thunderbolt LSR car? That has eight wheels (twin rears). Heaps of commercials of course including (in railway terms) the 0-2-4 layout of the somewhat rare Talbot Express Pullman and Freeway!

[E1pix]

Unfortunately I cannot pay any money for the photos. With books that deal with special subjects like this, sales are very low.
So low that the author hardly makes any money at all. It would be different if the subject was the Porsche 911 or various supercars, but obscure six-wheelers do not make it to number one on the sales lists.
This is a labour of love, and not something I do to make money.

You're asking for 36-year-old antiques, of a rare nature, for which others have paid to produce, house, scan, archive, etc... endless efforts over decades.

If you have a service to trade, that might be an avenue for you to consider when asking for a handout of someone's labor.

Just pointing out the other side of a fence you need bridging of.

Edited by E1pix, 23 April 2012 - 06:44.

[ellrosso]

Yes ,have to second that Eric, different when its your living at stake. Its not an easy industry to make a buck out of at the best of times.
Good luck with the book and I hope it goes well for you.

[elansprint72]

Yes ,have to second that Eric, different when its your living at stake. Its not an easy industry to make a buck out of at the best of times.
Good luck with the book and I hope it goes well for you.

An a third from me. Seems pretty astonishing that a first-time poster pops up on the forum and asks for charitable donations so that he can put together and sell a book.
I've given away lots of photos to folks that I know, because I know what they will be doing with them.
As it happens I have some six-wheeler shots from the Monaco GP, published and paid for at the time. If anyone wants to make me an offer for a single world-wide use; I'm listening.

[Wirra]

Here is an image of the P34 I've owned for quite some time.

[Landsem]

[read your "offer" more thoroughly]

... and the illustrators you need to fill "your" book's pages get paid even less.

You're doing a book you call a "labor of love"... and others' actual life's work, of actual labor, should be free to you?

Give me some of your life's work for free, and then we'll talk. Until then, with all sincerity, stuff it.

I have myself given many photos over the years to people who wanted them, and have no problem doing that.

If I were to pay money for every photo in such a book the costs would be enormous, and it would be absolutely impossible to do it.

[David McKinney]

That's why there are far more topics that deserve a book, than actual books

[Landsem]

Sounds an interesting book in the making. Just wondered - if you're covering subjects beyond F1 as stated - whether or not you would include the tr-axle Thunderbolt LSR car? That has eight wheels (twin rears). Heaps of commercials of course including (in railway terms) the 0-2-4 layout of the somewhat rare Talbot Express Pullman and Freeway!

The Thunderbolt is an amazing car, and it does have three axles. However, I don't think I will include it since it has eight wheels. But speaking of LSR cars, I will include the Mercedes-Benz T80. Vehicles like the Talbot Express Pullman will not be included. The focus will be on racing cars and various dream machines.

[E1pix]

I have myself given many photos over the years to people who wanted them, and have no problem doing that.

If I were to pay money for every photo in such a book the costs would be enormous, and it would be absolutely impossible to do it.

Keep Digging... What quality of photos have you given away? Film images from the '70s? Digital point and shoots? What?

Are you actually defending your approach? You're on a board full of writers, artists, publishers, etc., all people who deserve waaaay more than what you think you're owed. People who find ways to honor publishing, and the suppliers who make it possible. People who find creative ways to publish something without handouts, via niches, originality, market PR, etc. Many of us know exactly what you're trying to do, and also know how to pull something like this off without mooching off of the talent needed for such a venture.

Why should anyone give you their work??? Nobody even knows you here, you only show up to get something from us... and expect it!

In the end... what good's a photo credit in some half-assed book? You may not believe it, but I'm trying to wake you up.

Edited by E1pix, 19 April 2012 - 10:12.

[Allen Brown]

Wirra, when you say you've "owned" that picture, what do you mean exactly? Were you the original photographer? Did you publish a print? Buy the copyright? Buy the negative?

[backfire]

I wouldn't get so cross with the author, but some publishers need to be told. I know that one very well known motoring book publisher (not Haynes!) who will agree to authors ideas and then tell them there is no picture budget - but tell the writer they will give the photographer a credit for free pics. Some of these authors are so keen to go ahead they agree. In this day and age the art of photography is struggling to command any respect. If the book is going to be any sort of success, it needs some good pictures and, although I'm sure there will be somebody able to do a very reasonable package deal, nothing to a professional will be seen as an insult (hence the steam rising from E1pix posts).

Edited by backfire, 19 April 2012 - 10:18.

[Landsem]

Keep Digging... What quality of photos have you given away? Film images from the '70s? Digital point and shoots? What?

Are you actually defending your approach? You're on a board full of writers, artists, publishers, etc., all people who deserve waaaay more than what you think you're owed. People who find ways to honor publishing, and the suppliers who make it possible. People who find creative ways to publish something without handouts, via niches, originality, market PR, etc. Many of us know exactly what you're trying to do, and also know how to pull something like this off without mooching off of the talent needed for such a venture.

Why should anyone give you their work??? Nobody even knows you here, you only show up to get something from us... and expect it!

In the end... what good's a photo credit in some half-assed book? You may not believe it, but I'm trying to wake you up.

I respect that you don't want to give away any of your photos, and I have not asked you to do so.
All I did was ask if anyone had photos they wanted to share with me. That's all.

[Wirra]

Wirra, when you say you've "owned" that picture, what do you mean exactly? Were you the original photographer? Did you publish a print? Buy the copyright? Buy the negative?

Allen - I meant, I own the P34 in the photo, but yes, the photo belongs to me. After all the trouble of delivering the car to the studio I was appalled by the lighting reflection on the car. I serious doubt the photographer could light a fart!

Edited by Wirra, 19 April 2012 - 10:45.

[alansart]

Allen - I meant, I own the P34 in the photo....

I had that Tamiya Kit as well at one time

[Wirra]

I had that Tamiya Kit as well at one time

Took you all long enough to wake up!

[Marticelli]

Can't help with six wheeler pics, but I do own a motorcycle with three wheels in line... Would this qualify? It was made by OEC in 1929 for military trials...

Marticelli

[Landsem]

Can't help with six wheeler pics, but I do own a motorcycle with three wheels in line... Would this qualify? It was made by OEC in 1929 for military trials...

Marticelli

Wow! Do you own one of those? That is an amazing machine. With your permission I would include one or two of your photos of it in the book. If you have more info on it, please feel free to share it either here or to: alandsem@online.no

[JacnGille]

I had that Tamiya Kit as well at one time

Me too! And a 1/43 scale diecast or two.

[Barry Boor]

I have a 43rd model of Depailler's car. I've been trying to sell it but apparently they are not that popular.

[Ralliart]

Eddie Guba took some detailed photos of the Tyrrell 6 wheeler at least if not of some of the ohers. Autosprint archives would be fantastic. The way I understand it, to simplify, the problem with the Tyrrell 6 wheeler is that it couldn't get the tires to work at their optimum - a car built around tires versus tires built around a car.

[Doug Nye]

Ken Tyrrell invited Jenks and Geoff Goddard to visit his home a few days before the P34 press launch. There he showed them the prototype car, and Geoff photographed Jenks kneeling down, gazing open mouthed at the four-wheeled front end. The GP Library holds those negs today, together with hundreds of subsequent photos of that car's sisters and successors. We have supplied these images to numerous publishers and publications, often at concessionary rates for use in books and magazines we thought worthwhile. We have freely posted quite a number of our copyright images here on TNF when it seemed churlish not to share them amongst like minded enthusiasts, crossing our fingers against theft and unauthorised reproduction. I suppose it's a matter of naive trust. But somehow I doubt that we will be providing pix for this Norwegian (?) project...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 April 2012 - 17:16.

[PCC]

I suppose it's a matter of naive trust. But somehow I doubt that we will be providing pix for this Norwegian (?) project...

DCN

Well, trust has to be earned. And the first step in building a trusting relationship might be to use one's real name...

[jcbc3]

I think this little spat has a couple of sides.

I perfectly well understand 'the professionals' on this site not wanting to share. But is that really what the OP asked? I don't think so. He asked the forum readers. I am such a person and if I, by chance, had a good amateur picture of a P34 and had no use for it, other than having it hidden away in a shoebox in the attic, I can't see why I shouldn't share it with others through the medium of a book. I really can't see the harm in that.

I know another writer who has made use of 'donated' pictures for his two books. It really isn't an outrageous request being made here. If I thought the OP would make a ton of money on his book, I might want a share, but we all know that he would be lucky to break even.

[Doug Nye]

I might want a share, but we all know that he would be lucky to break even.

Trust me - few know this better than my family and I.

DCN

[Hieronymus]

I think this little spat has a couple of sides.

I perfectly well understand 'the professionals' on this site not wanting to share. But is that really what the OP asked? I don't think so. He asked the forum readers. I am such a person and if I, by chance, had a good amateur picture of a P34 and had no use for it, other than having it hidden away in a shoebox in the attic, I can't see why I shouldn't share it with others through the medium of a book. I really can't see the harm in that.

I know another writer who has made use of 'donated' pictures for his two books. It really isn't an outrageous request being made here. If I thought the OP would make a ton of money on his book, I might want a share, but we all know that he would be lucky to break even.

Ditto!!

[Hieronymus]

Ditto!!

Never underestimate the "amateurs". Some of them have pretty interesting material. Many will be happy to provide material for a worthwhile effort, not expecting any reward, apart from an acknowledgement.

[David McKinney]

...and thereby depriving the professionals of their livelihood

(and no, I certainly don't regard myself as a professional photographer)

[Barry Boor]

Surely if the author is not willing to pay anything for photos, obtaining them from 'amateurs' is not taking anything from the professionals because they wouldn't have sold any pictures anyway.

Just a thought.

[Charlieman]

We have freely posted quite a number of our copyright images here on TNF when it seemed churlish not to share them amongst like minded enthusiasts, crossing our fingers against theft and unauthorised reproduction.

For which we are grateful. But aren't they fairly low res images with watermarking? They wouldn't be much use to a book layout artist.

On that point, I recognise my own ingenuousness. Those photos might be useless for print but somebody might use them on a website that generates money. The quality standard that we (and I mean all of us, and not just for motor sites) tolerate of free to view web content is very different from what we expect from a paper publication.

The OP is in a pickle, of course. The press launch photos of Tyrrell P34 and March 2-4-0 must be in the book -- the first case at least.

[Option1]

Which gets into a whole "value" debate. Personally, I believe it does take away from the professionals livelihood.

Neil

[jcbc3]

Are you guys proposing that only people declaring themselves 'professional' may now publish books???

If so I vehemently disagree!

[Charlieman]

Never underestimate the "amateurs". Some of them have pretty interesting material.

Somewhat like the Motor Sport magazine series of readers' photos from past events?

They are magnifying glass pages, alas, 'cos the pics are tiny. The pit and paddock photos are usually the best; candid moments between boss and driver or "look at that wazzock with the camera".

If I was running Motor Sport magazine, I'd wonder whether I was losing an opportunity to add to motor racing history and to pay back amateur photographers.

[Doug Nye]

Are you guys proposing that only people declaring themselves 'professional' may now publish books???

If so I vehemently disagree!

I dissociate myself from any such proposal and concur with the final sentence above.

DCN

[E1pix]

Are you guys proposing that only people declaring themselves 'professional' may now publish books???

If so I vehemently disagree!

I'm not sure anyone suggested that. The OP got onto a website to ask for free work, the only reason he's here, and not at all being up front about it. What other sites had his same request? What do his books look like, for a photo credit having value? Why not post a prior book or a link to his publishing site? Where else might the photos suddenly appear once high-res images are distributed? What possible means of trust is displayed in the post?

Why not at least offer a trade of services — or something, anything? Maybe the photo contributors need some writing to pay for the photo usages. What a wild idea, working off our debts to others...

Whether from amateur or professional shooters was mostly irrelevant to my argument. People could have sent the guy images ready to publish... to then be told "by the way, we're not paying anything." Amateur shooters don't see these likelihoods in advance. The question of the OP expecting free work from total strangers so he can "not make much money" is offensive... period.

Was I the only one to see this next part?... He represented himself as a guy wanting to simply do an unprofitable book as a labor of love... yet his own Profile lists him as "Occupation: Author, historian & automotive journalist." Hmmm...

Is this conflicting to someone making a living at it? Of course it is, but thankfully it's still a free world. But far more important than my business interests, I'm mostly offended for an amateur shooter that's long dreamed of being published, just to have this dream potentially tarnished by someone who seemingly can't even request images properly. I've seen amateur artist's dreams squashed way too often by idiots and it's terrible for them, and in witnessing this over and over for I as well, while also tarnishing the reputation of a business I'm involved in. I'm not slamming the OP as a person at all, just in the way he poses himself as a representative of publishing.

Please tell me another field where it is acceptable that one could spend a lifetime of hard work gathering inventory — whether amateur or professional — to have some stranger show up only to ask for handouts.

Put it this way:
"I'm a photographer here on Planet Earth and want to do a book. I have the images, but have no writing skills. The book will be about esoteric interpretations of the mountain experience. Please review the enclosed photos, and send me text to fill the half of my book that would otherwise be empty. Your work is absolutely imperative to my endeavor, I cannot do this book without you, but I expect your work at no charge. Just because. But I will credit your name in the book for your efforts."

If I ever need surgery, I'm going to ask the Surgeon if he'll do it for free by tatooing his name on my buttocks. Anything wrong with that?

Edited by E1pix, 19 April 2012 - 22:10.

[willga]

If I ever need surgery, I'm going to ask the Surgeon if he'll do it for free by tatooing his name on my buttocks. Anything wrong with that?

The surgery won't be costing you anything, tattoo or not, because the NHS will be paying.

[E1pix]

Not where I live.

[helioseism]

Well, trust has to be earned. And the first step in building a trusting relationship might be to use one's real name...

Um, actually he is using his real name. And he is a published author. See this.

[E1pix]

Um, actually he is using his real name. And he is a published author. See this.

So, he's a published author who's the only one making money in his ventures... most admirable.

Do you work for free? Just asking.

[helioseism]

So, he's a published author who's the only one making money in his ventures... most admirable.

Do you work for free? Just asking.

And why are you directing your anger at me? I'm only pointing out facts.

[Option1]

Are you guys proposing that only people declaring themselves 'professional' may now publish books???

If so I vehemently disagree!

Interesting reading of what I didn't say.

Neil

[E1pix]

And why are you directing your anger at me? I'm only pointing out facts.

Apologies, no anger at you, but the facts speak for themselves.