83 replies to this topic

[helioseism]

Apologies, no anger at you, but the facts speak for themselves.

Apology accepted, no problem. What do you all think is or should be the role of the book publisher in these cases? Assuming that the work is not self-published, of course.

[E1pix]

Apology accepted, no problem. What do you all think is or should be the role of the book publisher in these cases? Assuming that the work is not self-published, of course.

Thanks, no worries with you.

1) Be an actual publisher who understands the business and the importance of their professional relationships.
2) Study the market to see if the book fills a void, if the timing is right, and if there's enough interest in the topic within the marketplace you're realistically capable of reaching.
3) Construct a business plan that studies what retail price the market will bear.
4) Acquire cost estimates on every detail, even unforeseen ones, to the penny.
5) Set a printing budget for number of book pages within the bearable retail price using #2-4 above.
6) Finance it yourself, or find vested/invested partners to back your project.
7) Pay the talent who you need to produce your book — before publication — or do it as a joint venture benefitting your talent's efforts.
8) Sell the books at a price that covers your costs even if not as successful as planned, meaning if the print run doesn't sell out or get remaindered at a discount.
9) If unsuccessful, get on your feet and continue to make sales, via incentives or on consignment (at no bookseller cost) to recoup your costs.
10) If still not successful, be honored in knowing you paid your vendors before yourself, as they have no influence on sales.

Know that it's a tough business.
Know that nobody owes you anything.
Treat your vendors like gold, because they are golden to your project.
Be an adult taking a risky venture that's still a wonderful experience — even if not appearing as such on the bookkeeping.

Know also that if as a publisher you lose your hind end on an unsuccessful book, that it was your risk/gain that was the Genesis of the venture to begin with... not the suppliers who you owe for making your book happen in the first place.

Edited by E1pix, 19 April 2012 - 22:57.

[PCC]

Um, actually he is using his real name. And he is a published author. See this.

Okay, my mistake. There was nothing to go on in his profile.

[Ray Bell]

It's a real pity this thread has gone the way it has...

Sure, there are reasons people have come down on the OP, but I think it's correct to say this kind of treatment on TNF used to be reserved only for the Russian quiz contestants.

Are we here to dissuade potential authors? Is it possible this thread has done so?

I believe the answer to the second question is a resounding 'Yes!' And I don't mean the OP in this case, but others looking on.

Should we not be fostering their enthusiasm and lending whatever kind of helping hand our minds and our pockets say we should? Who's to know what they will dig out that might ultimately be of interest to us?

[rdrcr]

1) Be an actual publisher who understands the business and the importance of their professional relationships.
2) Study the market to see if the book fills a void, if the timing is right, and if there's enough interest in the topic within the marketplace you're realistically capable of reaching.
3) Construct a business plan that studies what retail price the market will bear.
4) Acquire cost estimates on every detail, even unforeseen ones, to the penny.
5) Set a printing budget for number of book pages within the bearable retail price using #2-4 above.
6) Finance it yourself, or find vested/invested partners to back your project.
7) Pay the talent who you need to produce your book — before publication — or do it as a joint venture benefitting your talent's efforts.
8) Sell the books at a price that covers your costs even if not as successful as planned, meaning if the print run doesn't sell out or get remaindered at a discount.
9) If unsuccessful, get on your feet and continue to make sales, via incentives or on consignment (at no bookseller cost) to recoup your costs.
10) If still not successful, be honored in knowing you paid your vendors before yourself, as they have no influence on sales.

Know that it's a tough business.
Know that nobody owes you anything.
Treat your vendors like gold, because they are golden to your project.
Be an adult taking a risky venture that's still a wonderful experience — even if not appearing as such on the bookkeeping.

Know also that if as a publisher you lose your hind end on an unsuccessful book, that it was your risk/gain that was the Genesis of the venture to begin with... not the suppliers who you owe for making your book happen in the first place.

The stuff you can read in here... jeez.

I'm sure E1 knows where I come down on this issue. The above represents the responsibilities and due-diligence no matter if it is an outside publisher or the author self-publishes.

If the OP were to receive such works without compensation, and his book went on to gain recognition because of those photographs, and sales skyrocketed in the market (and granted, the F1 historical racing community that would buy such works is rather limited), but nevertheless, do you think the author would say, "wow all that money because of those 'free' photos... I feel terrible about this, I think I'll take 25% of the gross and divide it up and send it to my contributors". Riiiight. I think E1's previous post where he uses the copy is the object being requested for free is also an apropos example.

A fairly decent example of Chutzpah I think.

Edited by rdrcr, 20 April 2012 - 00:08.

[E1pix]

It's a real pity this thread has gone the way it has...

Sure, there are reasons people have come down on the OP, but I think it's correct to say this kind of treatment on TNF used to be reserved only for the Russian quiz contestants.

Are we here to dissuade potential authors? Is it possible this thread has done so?

I believe the answer to the second question is a resounding 'Yes!' And I don't mean the OP in this case, but others looking on.

Should we not be fostering their enthusiasm and lending whatever kind of helping hand our minds and our pockets say we should? Who's to know what they will dig out that might ultimately be of interest to us?

If you're suggesting that I or any of us have dissuaded budding artists... I suggest you consider what I do every day to help budding photographers in the photo threads. I have mentored dozens if not hundreds in the arts, Ray.

To any budding author reading here it's probably been a proper education, not a dissuasion at all. Nobody said a thing about withholding or compromising others' art pursuits. Message: do it right, or not at all.

I don't expect free writing, or free anything... even from people I've known forever. So why defend this complete stranger in expecting free photography?

Edited by E1pix, 20 April 2012 - 01:02.

[E1pix]

A voice of reason, Thank You.

[JacnGille]

Eric, repeat after me...OOOOOOMMMMMMMM...OOOOOOMMMMMMMMM...OOOOOOMMMMMM...

[backfire]

If you look at my last post (22) and the link to the published book (48) you will find evidence of the very publisher I was hinting at!

[E1pix]

Thanks Backfire, that's a big piece of the puzzle.

[Julian Roberts]

Perhaps the OP was aiming his request at the many enthusiasts who went to Grands Prix, and happened to take their camera with them, and happened to take some shots of a 6 wheel Tyrrell ?

I do not wish to undermine the work or integrity of professional photographers, but if I had some shots of these cars I would happily send them for inclusion.

I sent some old (ish) negatives to Janos Wimpffen for inclusion in his Monocoques & Ground Effects. I was thrilled he used them and more so when he sent me a complimentary copy ! From the posts on here at the time, a few TNF members did the same.

[Landsem]

Perhaps the OP was aiming his request at the many enthusiasts who went to Grands Prix, and happened to take their camera with them, and happened to take some shots of a 6 wheel Tyrrell ?

I do not wish to undermine the work or integrity of professional photographers, but if I had some shots of these cars I would happily send them for inclusion.

I sent some old (ish) negatives to Janos Wimpffen for inclusion in his Monocoques & Ground Effects. I was thrilled he used them and more so when he sent me a complimentary copy ! From the posts on here at the time, a few TNF members did the same.

This is exactly what I had in mind. My request was aimed at the regular enthusiasts, and not the professional photographers.
The enthusiast who might have an old photo of the P34 from the British GP, or perhaps a snapshot of the Panther Six from the Geneva Motor Show. These are the kind of people I wanted to reach with my request.

I certainly don't expect Rainer Schlegelmilch to suddenly just send all his P34 pics to me for free...

[Marticelli]

Can I also add a word in defence of the poor Norwegian OP Arnstein Landsem, who must be wondering what he said to get such a severe roasting at the hands of the TNF old guard. Since I posted the picture of my three wheeled motorcycle, I have had an exchange of PMs with the OP, and he is clearly a genuine enthusiast not some chancer looking to make a fast buck out of stealing other people's copyright images and cashing in on them.

As Ray Bell said a few posts ago, its a shame the thread turned out as it has, as its hardly encouraging for someone to have such a hostile reaction. If he wanted to steal images in the way others here have portayed, he would hardly put up the polite and sincere request he did. There are lots of ways of finding and using images without going to a forum like this one and asking a direct question.

I have stopped posting regularly here because to be frank I got terminally fed up with the bickering and backbiting that goes on amongst regular posters here. I now choose my contributions carefully, as you may have noticed, as I too have strong feelings about the way my hobby has changed over the years, and its mostly for the worse not the better sadly.

Fact is I prefer to get my hands dirty restoring an old car or motorcycle rather than being a keyboard warrior, and right now I have some engineering to do...

'Nuff said...

Marticelli

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by E1pix
If you're suggesting that I or any of us have dissuaded budding artists... I suggest you consider what I do every day to help budding photographers in the photo threads. I have mentored dozens if not hundreds in the arts, Ray.....

I'm not in any way trying to belittle your efforts, E1, but simply concerned at what some might read into your (and others') posts herein...

.....So why defend this complete stranger in expecting free photography?

I'm not defending anyone... not at all...

What I am saying is that the kind of phraseology used would never have been seen here ten to twelve years ago. Courtesy, graciousness and conciliation would have been evident in everything.

Sure, you have brought a positive suggestion or two, but prior to that you have pointedly stated that the guy has (and yes, he has... no question of it) joined up simply to try to get some good photos cheap or free. Did that need to be said?

We all treated each other with dignity in those times. It has changed, that was my comment, and you are not the only one who's been drawn along those lines.

[D-Type]

It's a real pity this thread has gone the way it has...

Sure, there are reasons people have come down on the OP, but I think it's correct to say this kind of treatment on TNF used to be reserved only for the Russian quiz contestants.

Are we here to dissuade potential authors? Is it possible this thread has done so?

I believe the answer to the second question is a resounding 'Yes!' And I don't mean the OP in this case, but others looking on.

Should we not be fostering their enthusiasm and lending whatever kind of helping hand our minds and our pockets say we should? Who's to know what they will dig out that might ultimately be of interest to us?

Very well put, Ray.

I have re-read the initial post and I don't think that Arnstein Lansdem said anything to justify the roasting he has received. The post is polite and he has been absolutely straight with us in what he is requesting.

It's not like the young man who avidly downloaded pictures from all over the web, uploaded them on his own website without even acknowledging the source let alone asking the owners' permission. Then when he found others were doing the same he proceded to watermark them all. When the [then] moderator of this forum asked if he was entitled to watermark them when he didn't really own them (ie he did not own the copyright) he left the forum in a huff. Or the other one who put what he had collected onto DVDs and proceeded to sell them - a blatant theft of copyright material.

Another forum member made a similar request a while back now has half a dozen of my colour transparencies which have been languishing in a box for about 40 years. If any appear in his book I shall be highly flattered. In doing this, I am not taking the bread from the professionals' mouths as the only professional who might have been at this very local meeting would have been a junior photographer from the local rag - and he wouldn't have been using colour anyway!

[doc knutsen]

I have myself given many photos over the years to people who wanted them, and have no problem doing that.

If I were to pay money for every photo in such a book the costs would be enormous, and it would be absolutely impossible to do it.

Hi, I just noticed this thread. Presumably, your .no address means that you are based in Norway? If so, and if the book is to be written in Norwegian, it will be aimed at a very limited market and that does justify your claim that it is a labour of love, not a money-spinner.
I have a few shots of Scheckter and Depailler which were taken by myself (too bad I did not get a shot of Ken Tyrrell smiling after Anderstorp 1976, but I was too busy offering congratulations...yes, F1 was that accessible then, if you had a little imagination and a set of magic markers in different colours...) and they are just gathering dust in my albums. If they are any use to you, you are very welcome. Contact me at doc@knutspeed.com

[Rob Ryder]

1976 International Trophy



Rob (a friendly TNF amateur)

[rdrcr]

In the interest in of helping Landsem and showing others the difference in "approach" to problem solving, observe.

Step one:

Google Image Search

Step Two:

Find images that you like...

Step Three:

Contact Image Owner/Source with inquiry of license (free or otherwise) and distribution rights

Step Four:

Obtain image(s) or if none available to liking (hard to believe with 000s out there), Then make a plea for assistance in TNF with the above as reference.

How simple is that?

Edited by rdrcr, 22 April 2012 - 15:16.

[E1pix]

to the 100th Power.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks to Rob (a friendly amateur). And thanks to all those I met !

Bjørn Kjer

[D-Type]

Thanks to Rob (a friendly amateur). And thanks to all those I met !

Bjørn Kjer

?

Edited by D-Type, 23 April 2012 - 15:42.

[Marticelli]

So are we now to believe that if a photograph exists, it must be on Google??? Actually this thread has teased out quite a few offers of images that are not available on Google, and no doubt all the better for that!!!

I repeat what I said above in post #63, I find the general attitude of those posting here hard to fathom, and have consequently reduced my input to the bare essentials...

Marticelli

[rdrcr]

So are we now to believe that if a photograph exists, it must be on Google??? Actually this thread has teased out quite a few offers of images that are not available on Google, and no doubt all the better for that!!!

I repeat what I said above in post #63, I find the general attitude of those posting here hard to fathom, and have consequently reduced my input to the bare essentials...

Marticelli

How obtuse. I'll see if I can make it clearer for you (and others with the same deficits). If the inquiring party sees a photo they like, they could also ask if the photographer has others taken at the moment or during the same time period (one could naturally assume that, but... perhaps not). Thereby having an "exclusive" image.

I find rewarding the lazy and the lame almost as bad as being lazy or lame itself. I find those that don't get that, hard to fathom.

[Rob Ryder]

I find rewarding the lazy and the lame almost as bad as being lazy or lame itself. I find those that don't get that, hard to fathom.

TNF meets RC

The posts on this thread just about sum up what has gone wrong with TNF in the past couple of years...

Edited by Rob Ryder, 23 April 2012 - 18:06.

[E1pix]

TNF meets RC

The posts on this thread just about sum up what has gone wrong with TNF in the past couple of years...

To quote others I've read here, Utter Bollocks.

This is not an unproductive debate, nor one designed for bickering. This is not some silly "Ferrari trumps McLaren" RC debate, nor does it have anything to do with being a "nice guy" or not. OT a moment, two weeks ago I concluded a search of 11 years and four days in tracking down the parents of a deceased cliff-fall victim that was thought to be a suicide. I proved back then it wasn't, but got no Ranger cooperation and didn't know the victim... but was finally able to find the parents to let them know. It has changed their lives. I also spend hundreds of hours a year helping burgeoning artists and writers, and have donated tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of my work to help others. So any reference to "nice guy" or not is pure speculation by people who simply don't know this topic... nor its defenders.

Nobody has faulted anyone for doing a book.

We all love racing and that's makes us common — not on differing sides of a fence. Wouldn't it be interesting if one day we shared time over a beer at a track, exchanging info for a blossoming friendship... only to discover one or the other of us was "one of those 'bad guys' that 'ruined' TNF?" TNF is a wonderful gathering of like-minded people and we're all here because we choose to be — because we all adore motor racing. We're also free to read or pass by what we do/don't care about. It'd be pretty boring if all we ever posted was "I concur 100%!" on every topic.

One problem I'm seeing is that some here are debating over a business they're not in, or perhaps they're not in any business at all. Instead, they're prioritizing their desire for a photo credit regardless of misunderstood factors. Part of this I understand, as we'd all like to see our work in print. We'd even give it away to get that thrill, I did it myself early on until a professional straightened me out. I was at first offended, then profusely thanked him later. I was on the wrong path, a complete stranger told me what was what, and I never forgot it.

A widening sector of unscrupulous publishers know this well, and have capitalized on it. The OP seems like a good bloke and I apologize if my words superceded that. I have nothing personally against the man, but am concerned for his approach and the spreading of such ideas. He'd do far better for himself to either change publishers to one respecting their very business, change his approach in not offering anything in return for materials that he needs for his project, or both. Any publisher that tells a writer "We'll do a book for you if you can find free photos" is threatening the death of my industry, and certainly deserves none of the profit such sleazy methods may bear. They thrive on the backs of others who may well lose their homes. If in your industry, would any of you be okay with that? People here may not see it, but if the OP follows my advice he'd later see I'm looking out for him as well as an industry I've poured my heart, soul, money, and life into.

Publishing is collapsing, my friends, and I ask you how you'd respond if you were constantly offered a dime on the dollar for your Life's Work... and also bear witness to so many wanting it for free. I dare suggest your response would be identical to mine.

If someone posted a thread wanting free vintage race car diligence materials... to sell a car whether at loss or profit... and it came under fire from paid purveyors of such materials which I could have offered for free (but wouldn't out of respect for their livelihood)... personally I'd say nothing against the impassioned defenders. Because I'm not in that business, and thus wouldn't even know what I was arguing against.

Best to You All.

[CiroMenotti]

TNF meets RC

The posts on this thread just about sum up what has gone wrong with TNF in the past couple of years...

How very true, Rob

[RonPohl]

Returning to the topic of 6 wheelers, in 1948 an interesting 6 wheeler appeared at Indy. The "Pat Clancy Special" featured 4 drive wheels at the rear.

[ellrosso]

In defence of E1pix, I think some people might feel a bit different if they were relying on the revenue from their images to live on and had been ripped off along the way.
Its not a great feeling - I've been through it a few times and I know E1 pix has too, so I can certainly understand the passion behind his posts.
Whatever is said on this forum will not stop enthusiasts publishing on a shoestring and getting photos for nothing off fellow enthusiasts who will be happy to oblige. Thats just life, and has been happening for years and will happen again in the future. If these publishers didn't get the images for nothing, the books more than likely wouldn't happen at all.
As long as everyone involved knows what they are doing and are happy to receive nothing for their images, regardless of future outcomes, then fine. But don't condemn working photographers for wanting a fair revenue for their images.

[rdrcr]

TNF meets RC

The posts on this thread just about sum up what has gone wrong with TNF in the past couple of years...

I don't think I've seen a better combination of thick headedness and thin skin. Thanks!

[Rob Ryder]

I rest my case M'Lud...

My post was an observation... yours is just bloody offensive!

I suggest you read the Board rules on etiquette and behaviour...

Moderator?

Rob

Edited by Rob Ryder, 24 April 2012 - 17:26.

[Rob Ryder]

When I joined TNF it was populated by gentleman who discussed all forms of motor sport (and related topics) in a dignified and adult manner.

All forum members ..
showed respect for other forum posters, including new members
were tolerant of the differing views of other members
showed understanding for lack of knowledge on any topic being discussed
were helpful whenever possible.

It seems that TNF is now a candidate for Nostalgia in it's own right...

Rob

[E1pix]

I understand but don't see that, Rob.

When I review the archives I see no real changes to now. Maybe as positive thinkers we just don't recall the arguments, but they're there. This is a great place, still is, nothing's changed all that much — but the world in general is more stressed than five years ago and maybe that's a factor for both posters and readers? I will add that as a new poster I got hammered, relentlessly, so I do know how that feels and agree new posters should be treated as equals — which I was not.

If you took the time to understand what others were posting here, about a topic important to us, you might see passion instead of anger. But... if not in the business I don't expect you to understand. People do get mad, though, when questioned about their business by any random person not in that business. That's rude, too. This thread was about my business, not about 6-wheeled vehicles.

Have a nice day.

[Bjorn Kjer]

No , this thread was not about your business E1pix, because we don't know who you are , where you live or what you do , only your pseudonym . Please read from the start what its about , and if others posters would respect that , there would be no fluffy posts here. If you dont like the OP's question , just dont respond ,isnt that the best way?. Too many threads are spoilt by too many who come up their personal whinings. Such can be put up elsewhere or by your own complaint thread !

[Twin Window]

I've read this thread and can appreciate all sides to the discussion. It has been heated at times, but I feel more by passion than anger.

However, what I won't tolerate are personal insults and abuse on this or any other thread. Those who have been guilty of this on this thread know who they are and should feel ashamed.

TNF has changed in some respects in the almost-eight years I've been at the helm - it's absolutely inevitable - but certain standards of conduct and manners have not. As I've repeatedly said in the past, I would encourage all members to contact me in order to report any breaches as they won't be tolerated.

For now I'm going to close this thread so all can cool off and reflect - it can be re-opened if necessary at a later date. Meanwhile, anyone wishing to assist Landsem can still do so as the thread isn't being deleted.