Monaco GP photo to be identified
#1
Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:11
My wife recently bought this poster to be placed in our living room and it's hard to look at this every day as at an anonymous one...
That's what I could expect: wet Monaco GP (training or qual) , Lotus, start no 1T, Attwood?, Amon?
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#2
Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:55
#3
Posted 21 April 2012 - 14:08
Edited by Rob G, 21 April 2012 - 14:08.
#4
Posted 21 April 2012 - 14:10
It is definitely Dickie Attwood.
#5
Posted 21 April 2012 - 14:15
#6
Posted 21 April 2012 - 14:41
Judging by the helmet, I'd say it's Attwood.
Yes, BUT why 1T?
Attwood was #15 and Brabham was #1.
#7
Posted 21 April 2012 - 15:59
I hope we solve this one. I can't say I noticed the odd number the car was wearing on the Thursday or if I did I don't remember it - surprising really, it's only been 47 years!
#8
Posted 21 April 2012 - 16:17
Attwood or Hailwood in one of the Parnell Lotus 25s, c/n R4, 1965.
According to Eoin Young's, "Jim Clark and his most successful Lotus" Tony Maggs drove R4 at Monaco in 1965 and didn't start.
David
#9
Posted 21 April 2012 - 16:40
#10
Posted 21 April 2012 - 16:42
according to John Thompson's "The Formula One Record Book"Attwood qualified & raced chassis R3-race#15-also practiced R4-T-along with Hailwood.According to Eoin Young's, "Jim Clark and his most successful Lotus" Tony Maggs drove R4 at Monaco in 1965 and didn't start.
David
#11
Posted 21 April 2012 - 17:32
DCN
#12
Posted 21 April 2012 - 18:17
That photo plainly shows Richard, no question...
DCN
. . . and credited to Express photographer Victor Blackman
#13
Posted 21 April 2012 - 18:56
Edited by Barry Boor, 21 April 2012 - 18:56.
#14
Posted 21 April 2012 - 18:57
http://www.gettyimag...s-photo/3137698
This confirms that it's from 1965, although the actual date can't be right as 29th May was Saturday.
#15
Posted 21 April 2012 - 19:01
But Friday and Saturday were beautiful days, whereas Thursday was horrible.
IIRC not many cars went out at all on Thursday but I remember Stewart and Ginther braving the rain, but who else went out I cannot say.
Edited by Barry Boor, 21 April 2012 - 19:03.
#16
Posted 21 April 2012 - 19:07
#17
Posted 21 April 2012 - 19:10
according to John Thompson's "The Formula One Record Book"Attwood qualified & raced chassis R3-race#15-also practiced R4-T-along with Hailwood.
"Theme Lotus" only quotes R3, R7 and R8 being used at Monaco. I have the John Thompson book and see that it does include R4 as a T car. I have read DSJ's report and reflections in that month's MotorSport and there is no mention of Maggs entered and non-starting so I am puzzled where that came from in the Eoin Young book.
David
#18
Posted 21 April 2012 - 19:21
#19
Posted 21 April 2012 - 19:41
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#20
Posted 21 April 2012 - 20:25
In the older F1 Record Book, no number is assigned to R4, for either driver. It's recorded only as "T", but the time for Hailwood also suggests he only drove it in the rain.I wondered about that. The only snag is that the Black Book has a best practice time for 15T of 2'01.5", the slowness of which suggests it was recorded in the wet session. If so, to get a time it must have been numbered as 15T in that session.
#21
Posted 21 April 2012 - 20:39
#22
Posted 21 April 2012 - 21:36
#23
Posted 21 April 2012 - 21:45
#24
Posted 21 April 2012 - 22:20
Gary, enlarge the image and it really doesn't look like him.
Why is Maurice wearing Dickie's helmet?
#25
Posted 21 April 2012 - 22:49
Really? I'll take a look tomorrow then.
#26
Posted 21 April 2012 - 22:51
'Gary, enlarge the image and it really doesn't look like him. '
Really? I'll take a look tomorrow then.
Oh yes it does. And wearing his crash helmet. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a Natwood.
DCN
#27
Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:56
Yes, BUT why 1T?
Attwood was #15 and Brabham was #1.
T stands for trainer meaning it is a spare car.
#28
Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:41
Bob
#29
Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:12
Yes, but the question being asked is why is it 1T and not 15T.T stands for trainer meaning it is a spare car.
Look at the third photo in the opening post. The poster on the wall was photographed at an angle, causing the distortion. Click on the link in post 14 for the undistorted photo.Why do the outside wheels appear to have so much positive camber? The inner wheels look ok compared to the road surface but the outside ones don't look right. Is this picture distorted?
#30
Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:06
It's ATTWOOD, on THURSDAY. Why is it 1T? - we'll almost certainly never know. Accept it and move on......
#31
Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:33
Oh yes it does. And wearing his crash helmet. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a Natwood.
DCN
Totally agree with DCN.
Cor, gentlemen, don't we get our bloomers in a bunch over silly things?
It's ATTWOOD, on THURSDAY. Why is it 1T? - we'll almost certainly never know. Accept it and move on......
I know why it is carrying 1T! Those dastardly French chaps decided to let the team use the number so that 47 years later a load of blokes would argue about it! Either that or with Clark not being at the event the organisers might have thought it was less confusing!
#32
Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:43
I think Sheldon is saying that the time was set by the driver allocated number 15 (Attwood) in a designated T car, not that he necessarily ran with number 15T.I wondered about that. The only snag is that the Black Book has a best practice time for 15T of 2'01.5", the slowness of which suggests it was recorded in the wet session. If so, to get a time it must have been numbered as 15T in that session.
More interesting (to me, anyway). DSJ wrote in his report: "From a collection of bits and by fabricating many parts themselves the team (Parnell) had built up a third car to the same specification to be used as a training car and as a spare."
This is presumably the car in the picture but which is it? All the books and magazines I have seen imply that it is R4, but Parnell had been using R4 since August the previous year. Attwood wrote it off two weeks later, of course, but did DSJ invent the story about Parnell fabricating a car themselves?
Edited by Roger Clark, 22 April 2012 - 09:12.
#33
Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:15
How would the timekeepers have known that it was Attwood, unless the car was wearing 15 or 15T? I feel sure that if they'd timed a car wearing 1T they'd have allocated the time to Brabham.I think Sheldon is saying that the time was set by the driver allocated number 15 (Attwood) in a designated T car, not that he necessarily ran with number 15T.
The copyright holders would appear to be Getty Images (see the link in post 14). I understand they're pretty hot on copyright infringement.It was sent to me by a friend with no indication of the source.
If it causes problems with copyright I'll remove it.
#34
Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:29
#35
Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:33
#36
Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:18
Oh yes it does. And wearing his crash helmet. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a Natwood.
DCN
I agree, finally
#37
Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:21
Cor, gentlemen, don't we get our bloomers in a bunch over silly things?
It's ATTWOOD, on THURSDAY. Why is it 1T? - we'll almost certainly never know. Accept it and move on......
I beg to differ Barry.
It´s just these small mysteries that make TNF so great.
I love the discussions and educated guesses that will occur
on these topics.
Btw why didn´t Erik Lundgren go to Nürburgring in 1951?
Christer
#38
Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:30
More interesting (to me, anyway). DSJ wrote in his report: "From a collection of bits and by fabricating many parts themselves the team (Parnell) had built up a third car to the same specification to be used as a training car and as a spare."
This is presumably the car in the picture but which is it? All the books and magazines I have seen imply that it is R4, but Parnell had been using R4 since August the previous year. Attwood wrote it off two weeks later, of course, but did DSJ invent the story about Parnell fabricating a car themselves?
I´m not a "rivet patterns expert" but I think there´s a small difference
between the spare car and the race car. There seems to be an opening
just under the windshield on the 1T which isn´t apparent on photos of
the race (15) car. Perhaps a fuel filler?
Christer
Edited by ChrisJson, 22 April 2012 - 10:30.
#39
Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:16
That photo plainly shows Richard, no question...
DCN
Doug are you still in contact with Richard?
If so perhaps we would be able to get the tale directly
from the horses mouth.
Christer
PS Please excuse me if I got the grammar wrong.
English is not my native language. DS
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#40
Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:18
"Theme Lotus" only quotes R3, R7 and R8 being used at Monaco. I have the John Thompson book and see that it does include R4 as a T car. I have read DSJ's report and reflections in that month's MotorSport and there is no mention of Maggs entered and non-starting so I am puzzled where that came from in the Eoin Young book.
David
Christian Moity mentions in his 4-volume Monaco book:
Parnell racing #R3 for Dick Attwood, #R7 for Hailwood..
BTW the weather on Thursday (1965) must have been very different: According to the same book, Attwood did on Thursday a time of 1'40''7(his best).Best was Hill on 1'37''1.
Best regards Michael
#41
Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:34
The picture posted is an oblique picture of the poster with some foreshortening. The picture on the Getty Images site shows far less camberWhy do the outside wheels appear to have so much positive camber? The inner wheels look ok compared to the road surface but the outside ones don't look right. Is this picture distorted?
Bob
#42
Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:11
As pointed out earlier by Tim Murray (post 29).The picture posted is an oblique picture of the poster with some foreshortening. The picture on the Getty Images site shows far less camber
#43
Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:06