Jump to content


Photo

Rosberg chopping both Hamilton and Alonso


  • Please log in to reply
502 replies to this topic

#451 Coops3

Coops3
  • Member

  • 1,592 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:21

so rosberg could hit the brakes when hamilton or alonso were behind him and even that wouldn't be reason to complain? they complained it because it was stupid and unfair move by rosberg, that isn't way do drive with your sport-mates while you are driving 100 miles per hour. watch onboard replays and you will see how tricky move that was.


I don't think Hamilton did complain did he?

Advertisement

#452 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,094 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:26

I don't think Hamilton did complain did he?


He just said he was pushed wide, in answer to a comment about Rosberg's radio call, http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17808451 1:53

#453 radosav

radosav
  • Member

  • 100 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:26

I don't think Hamilton did complain did he?

you don't know that. i think mclaren did protest

#454 Coops3

Coops3
  • Member

  • 1,592 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:30

you don't know that. i think mclaren did protest


I know, I was just asking the question because I wasn't aware of any complaint/protest.

#455 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:31

Hamilton complaining about someone running him wide during an attempted pass is irony in its purest condensed form. He is the master at not leaving any room at all, and is never ever pulled up on it.

He didnt complain :lol:

If it was MS rather than Nico, I can imagine how Brundle & co would have been screaming for a penalty.

But Nico doing it twice in the same race, stewards are crazy, seems the rules are different depending on who's driving.

I guess Nico has got a lot of goodwill which i'm guessing just run out

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Don't think that's acceptable.

The one with Lewis was worse

With such reaction he can count at most on the image of another Massa :)

I was thinking the same, Massa got criticised for being too soft wheel to wheel with Lewis so now he's more looking to have a crash, not just with Lewis but other drivers as well

#456 valachus

valachus
  • Member

  • 1,073 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:05

So that's a valid excuse for not punishing a driver?

It's not an excuse, it's just my explanation of the episodes of yesterday.

#457 Velocifer

Velocifer
  • Member

  • 736 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:18

The leader can choose any direction he wants unless he is in an overtaking situation which he was not. Rightly cleared by the stewards.

FIA: Please define overtaking situation as 'more than half the car alongside the other'

Hamilton overtook a car off the track which is obviously illegal and should get a penalty, but didn't. Since it was so obvious a breach the stewards couldn't have missed it, so why not enforce an obvious rule? The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid Hamilton will play the racist card like he already played last year.

#458 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:23

The leader can choose any direction he wants unless he is in an overtaking situation which he was not. Rightly cleared by the stewards.

FIA: Please define overtaking situation as 'more than half the car alongside the other'

Hamilton overtook a car off the track which is obviously illegal and should get a penalty, but didn't. Since it was so obvious a breach the stewards couldn't have missed it, so why not enforce an obvious rule? The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid Hamilton will play the racist card like he already played last year.


That would be in line with, for example, British Karting. If it was defined as such it would make things a lot simpler. My own preference would be for front wheels being at least level with the leader's rear wheels but I do agree with the need for 'alongside' to be defined rather than the BS that the stewards gave yesterday.



#459 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 642 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:26

Are there any onboard shots from Lewis? Some onboard stills would be nice. I think Nico stepped over the line with his driving.

Advertisement

#460 TT6

TT6
  • Member

  • 3,565 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:31

The leader can choose any direction he wants unless he is in an overtaking situation which he was not. Rightly cleared by the stewards.
FIA: Please define overtaking situation as 'more than half the car alongside the other'

Hamilton overtook a car off the track which is obviously illegal and should get a penalty, but didn't.


Hmm... I think it was an overtaking situation since Hamilton obviously overtook Rosberg. I think it is acceptable to use "the off track" if you are pushed there.

I love Alonso's take on the situation.

I think you are going to have fun in future races! You can defend position as you want and you can overtake outside the track! Enjoy!







#461 Sheik

Sheik
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:35

Watched the videos again and just cant understand how Rosberg escaped penalty. I really thought that was no brainer. Apparently not...

#462 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,026 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:39

I wasn't a fan of either of Rosberg's moves, but agree with the stewards' decisions (based on consistent application of current standards). He's entitled to move to the edge of the track provided:

1. he does it in one continuous move; and

2. there isn't another car half way alongside or more.

And he met that criteria.

But I think that an additional criteria should be added preventing late moves that give the other driver little to no time to react. To me, his move on Hamilton (certainly) and the move on Alonso (potentially) were too late defending against already committed drivers. They reminded me of this incident between Kimi and Webber at Brazil, where I was pretty unimpressed with Webber's driving:

Still, based on the rules as they are and have been applied recently, I think Rosberg was within his rights to drive as he did and I agree with no penalty. I'd prefer to see the rules changed, or a new interpretation, though.



#463 Andy35

Andy35
  • Member

  • 3,451 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:06

I like Rosberg, and the move he pulled off was borderline but then to whine about Lewis overtaking him off track was absolutely laughable!



That did make me chuckle, he was obviously so surprised that Lewis kept his foot down he felt hard done by! :) He was half way off the track at the time too he was so keen to block.
Ever since the white lines at Monza were deemed ok to go across it seems the stewards can make their mind up as they see fit, though I think the rule is actually black and white (pardon the pun).

It's no wonder there is so much inconsistency, rules seem to be advisory rather than compulsory. I've compared before golf to F1 and say that F1 rules should be enforced like golf rules

Andy

Edited by Andy35, 23 April 2012 - 15:07.


#464 Sausage

Sausage
  • Member

  • 1,802 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:20

I think he should've gotten a repri at least on the move with Hamilton, but with Alonso it was less obvious. Alonso's twitter is pretty funny, but it sounds like he's just mad about hamilton having bigger balls and just overtook on the dirt, wich he himself wasn't brave (or crazy if you will) enough for to do.

#465 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,391 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:52

I wasn't a fan of either of Rosberg's moves, but agree with the stewards' decisions (based on consistent application of current standards). He's entitled to move to the edge of the track provided:

1. he does it in one continuous move; and

2. there isn't another car half way alongside or more.

And he met that criteria.

But I think that an additional criteria should be added preventing late moves that give the other driver little to no time to react. To me, his move on Hamilton (certainly) and the move on Alonso (potentially) were too late defending against already committed drivers. They reminded me of this incident between Kimi and Webber at Brazil, where I was pretty unimpressed with Webber's driving:

Still, based on the rules as they are and have been applied recently, I think Rosberg was within his rights to drive as he did and I agree with no penalty. I'd prefer to see the rules changed, or a new interpretation, though.


Sums my thoughts :up:

Looks like it´s legal, but probably shouldn´t be. Defend if you want, but earlier, not when there´s someone under your gearbox pulling off your slipstream.

#466 mlsnoopy

mlsnoopy
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:56

The funny thing is that if contact happened people would again blame Hamilton, instead of the idiots that are dangerous on track.

#467 Kompressor

Kompressor
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:58

Both incidents were investigated and Rosberg did nothing wrong in either one. He cleanly shut the door on both Alonso and Hamilton. Hamilton got alongside Rosberg only after he went off the track. It would've been interesting if Rosberg drove off the track as well to continue to defend his line.

#468 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,502 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:05

Hamilton overtook a car off the track which is obviously illegal and should get a penalty, but didn't. Since it was so obvious a breach the stewards couldn't have missed it, so why not enforce an obvious rule? The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid Hamilton will play the racist card like he already played last year.


That would be because he didn't pass Rosberg off track. So obvious that you missed it.

#469 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 642 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:19

Both incidents were investigated and Rosberg did nothing wrong in either one. He cleanly shut the door on both Alonso and Hamilton. Hamilton got alongside Rosberg only after he went off the track. It would've been interesting if Rosberg drove off the track as well to continue to defend his line.

I believe he did.

#470 SlickMick

SlickMick
  • Member

  • 133 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:51

I believe he did.


Great driving by Rosberg and Hamilton. Great decision by stewards.
What's all the fuss about?

#471 antifozy

antifozy
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:47

My 2 cents:
I saw the race again today on my DVR, and watched the replay again and again, and it was clear that Lewis didn't overtake Nico off the track. He came back on track and then overtook him. Also by regulations Nico was allowed one move and when he gets back on the racing line, he was supposed to leave room. Which he did. So I think it was a good, fair decision by the stewards.

#472 Henrik B

Henrik B
  • Member

  • 2,710 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:13

He's entitled to move to the edge of the track provided:

1. he does it in one continuous move; and

2. there isn't another car half way alongside or more.


Is that actually a rule? I don't think there's a proper definition anywhere what "alongside" really means. Personally I usually think it should be much harsher than that, even a small overlap is enough that the car behind can't choose line anymore and that means the leading driver can't take away the space in front of the car behind BUT I'm usually in the minority and the stewards are usually reluctant to punish people having only a small overlap, like Lewis in Bahrain. The wording in the verdict there suggest a really tiny overlap just as they're about to go over the line, so I can accept that decision.

I still really really want to see forward-facing onboards. No one can tell from the FOM broadcast how far along Lewis or Alonso is, and Alonso we KNOW wasn't alongside at all.


#473 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:28

so rosberg could hit the brakes when hamilton or alonso were behind him and even that wouldn't be reason to complain? they complained it because it was stupid and unfair move by rosberg, that isn't way do drive with your sport-mates while you are driving 100 miles per hour. watch onboard replays and you will see how tricky move that was.


Hit the brakes in the middle of the straight? Of course not, a deliberate move like that should give him multiple race bans at least. Coming in to a braking zone, of course, it's the overtaker's responsibility to avoid ramming into the back of him.

The funny thing is that if contact happened people would again blame Hamilton, instead of the idiots that are dangerous on track.


And people aren't blaming Rosberg now? By all means, keep on whining about the conspiracy that is Lewis Hamilton's career in F1. :down:

For what it's worth, the should be criticism for his actions against Alonso. Hamilton I suspect was still fuming about the pit-stop so he was going to put his car there even though it was obvious Rosberg was going to cover the inside line.

#474 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:34

Is that actually a rule? I don't think there's a proper definition anywhere what "alongside" really means. Personally I usually think it should be much harsher than that, even a small overlap is enough that the car behind can't choose line anymore and that means the leading driver can't take away the space in front of the car behind BUT I'm usually in the minority and the stewards are usually reluctant to punish people having only a small overlap, like Lewis in Bahrain. The wording in the verdict there suggest a really tiny overlap just as they're about to go over the line, so I can accept that decision.

I still really really want to see forward-facing onboards. No one can tell from the FOM broadcast how far along Lewis or Alonso is, and Alonso we KNOW wasn't alongside at all.


I agree, especially with these wings the penalty is too high to allow the leader to still move to cover when the guy behind has half a meter of car alongside. The problem here was that Hamilton only came to the side of Rosberg about when there was a car width of room on the inside and all the while Nico was moving rather rapidly across the track to cover that. It was quite clear IMO that by the time Nico noticed Lewis had gone on the inside he was already hugging the white line and "the damage" had been done.

A racing incident, Lewis was lucky there was concrete there. Had there been grass, Lewis would have lost ground and eventually backed off, had there been a railing or a wall he would've obviously backed off immediately or gone to the outside. No scenarios would have been worthy of giving Nico a penalty.

#475 InvertedLift

InvertedLift
  • Member

  • 209 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:42

My take after watching the replay:

For the first incident with Nico and Lewis, Nico starts moving left while Lewis is pretty much directly behind him. I don't think Nico can know on which side Lewis is going to try and pass at this point. He moves right in a consistent manner, and Lewis only starts to get alongside as Nico reaches the edge of the track. I think it would be unfair to punish Nico for that.

As for Lewis overtaking off the circuit, I don't think he actually does. He definitely makes some ground on Nico whilst off the track, but from watching that replay I would argue the pass isn't completed until they get to the next corner when Lewis is back on the circuit.


The second incident with Alonso is less clear cut I think. I'm less convinced the stewards got this one right. Alonso is closer than Lewis was when Nico starts to move right, although I guess you could argue he still hadn't started to pass Nico, otherwise Nico would have taken his front wing off when he started to move right.


Doesn't matter.

Can you just straighline a chicane, get a good run on someone and then get them at the next corner?

I'd think all the Lewis fanboys would know full well that you can't.

Rosbergs move was aggressive, but legal. Lewis wen't outside the track limits to gain an advantage which he used to pass.

If anything Lewis was probably more deserving of a penalty, although I have no problem with them both being let off.

#476 WhiteBlue

WhiteBlue
  • Member

  • 2,138 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:06

Alonso is a bad looser. The verdict of the stewards was clear and he still thought it necessary to complain on his twitter. As if there had anything dramatically changed. Hamilton had no advantage from going off line unlike cutting a corner, so the stewards could disregard that violation of the rules. They are supposed to remain on track, that is true. But if they do not gain an advantage from going off track and take the risk a penalty seems inappropriate. Hamilton's off was not unsporting. Rules should be elastic enough to encourage racing as long as it is fair.

#477 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 3,925 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:33

I wasn't a fan of either of Rosberg's moves, but agree with the stewards' decisions (based on consistent application of current standards). He's entitled to move to the edge of the track provided:

1. he does it in one continuous move; and

2. there isn't another car half way alongside or more.

And he met that criteria.

But I think that an additional criteria should be added preventing late moves that give the other driver little to no time to react. To me, his move on Hamilton (certainly) and the move on Alonso (potentially) were too late defending against already committed drivers. They reminded me of this incident between Kimi and Webber at Brazil, where I was pretty unimpressed with Webber's driving:

Still, based on the rules as they are and have been applied recently, I think Rosberg was within his rights to drive as he did and I agree with no penalty. I'd prefer to see the rules changed, or a new interpretation, though.


This sums up my view on Rosbergs moves, including specifically the need to look at dangerous late moves.

Alonso is a bad looser. The verdict of the stewards was clear and he still thought it necessary to complain on his twitter. As if there had anything dramatically changed. Hamilton had no advantage from going off line unlike cutting a corner, so the stewards could disregard that violation of the rules. They are supposed to remain on track, that is true. But if they do not gain an advantage from going off track and take the risk a penalty seems inappropriate. Hamilton's off was not unsporting. Rules should be elastic enough to encourage racing as long as it is fair.


He could not have overtaken Rosberg there if he had not left the track, so I don't see how this could be true. If Rosberg's moves were fine (as the stewards have ruled and I agree), then there are no mitigating circumstances for Lewis going completely off the track as part of his overtaking move.

#478 Mox

Mox
  • Member

  • 3,191 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:16

So if according to the stewards lewis was not alongside rosberg then he really wasn't forced off track was he? If he then wasn't forced off track then how can you justify him going off track to make the pass?


:up:

#479 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,065 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:04

Benson's take

Which Hamilton clearly did. So why was he not penalised?

The stewards, I'm told, asked: "What advantage did Hamilton gain by going off the track?" And they concluded that if he had gone to the outside, he was carrying so much momentum he would have passed anyway.

The most obvious of several counter-points to that is: "Yes, but Hamilton did go off the track when you have established he didn't need to, and he did pass him by doing so, so he should be penalised."

At least two leading drivers share this view, I'm told. But you have to bear in mind that Hamilton is not the most popular driver on the grid and his rivals are "always looking for ways to nail him", as one source put it on Monday.


Seems ludicrous to me, I had presumed that rosberg's defence was a close call and rather than being black and white they had concluded it was a bit of a grey area - I.e. that rosberg didn't do enough to justify a penalty but also that Lewis had enough excuse to not have just gone off track voluntarily. I think that would have been fair enough but this explanation doesn't hold water.

Advertisement

#480 Jon83

Jon83
  • Member

  • 1,879 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:36

That would be because he didn't pass Rosberg off track. So obvious that you missed it.


Actually, he pretty much got ahead of Nico whilst off the track and by remaining off the track (instead of ducking back in behind which sure, would have cost him time) allowed himself to take the position by holding the inside line.

I watched it again last night and whilst I agree Nico was aggressive in his defence, Hamilton didn't appear to have been forced off the track at any point. Looked like he tried to go up the inside, Nico closed the door completely and Hamilton just carried on.

I think Hamilton would have got past Rosberg anyway so the whole thing seemed a little pointless.

#481 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:54

I believe he did.


Technically he passed him in the breaking zone at the corner, but certainly the whole move started at the beginning of the straight and was well under way while he was off track. Going off track there provided no racing benefit - no shorter route and a very dirty surface - so at the moment it's looking like he was pushed there.

#482 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:56

He could not have overtaken Rosberg there if he had not left the track, so I don't see how this could be true. If Rosberg's moves were fine (as the stewards have ruled and I agree), then there are no mitigating circumstances for Lewis going completely off the track as part of his overtaking move.


This is true, but that route provides no tangible benefits for an overtaking move - it doesn't shorten the track and it would be terribly dirty - you surely only go there if forced to.

#483 SmokeScreen

SmokeScreen
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:07

I think he should've gotten a repri at least on the move with Hamilton, but with Alonso it was less obvious. Alonso's twitter is pretty funny, but it sounds like he's just mad about hamilton having bigger balls and just overtook on the dirt, wich he himself wasn't brave (or crazy if you will) enough for to do.



:lol:
who needs other entertainment sources when you have F1 drama to feed off.
i'm going to have to add Rosberg to my list of favourite drivers - he can slot in 3rd after Crazy LEW :smoking: & Freddie.

#484 Xpat

Xpat
  • Member

  • 4,091 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:08

This is true, but that route provides no tangible benefits for an overtaking move - it doesn't shorten the track and it would be terribly dirty - you surely only go there if forced to.


Why wouldn't it have been better for Hamilton to let Rosberg move to the right, off the racing line, on to the dirty side of the track, taking a longer route, and Hamilton stay on the clean, faster, shorter racing line? He was trying to get a draft off the corner and down the strait so he could pass Rosberg on the right.

Still not sure how he "forced" Hamilton to follow him to the right when Hamilton was behind him.

I suspect Hamilton had the following problem:

Posted Image

#485 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:11

Why wouldn't it have been better for Hamilton to let Rosberg move to the right, off the racing line, on to the dirty side of the track, taking a longer route, and Hamilton stay on the clean, faster, shorter racing line? He was trying to get a draft off the corner and down the strait so he could pass Rosberg on the right.

Still not sure how he "forced" Hamilton to follow him to the right when Hamilton was behind him.

I suspect Hamilton had the following problem:

Posted Image


Maybe you're right - personally I find it a safer assumption that he was pushed to a less than favourable position - but either way we're both making assumptions, until move evidence comes up we can't really take this further.

#486 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 642 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:14

Technically he passed him in the breaking zone at the corner, but certainly the whole move started at the beginning of the straight and was well under way while he was off track. Going off track there provided no racing benefit - no shorter route and a very dirty surface - so at the moment it's looking like he was pushed there.

I agree. My comment was based on the observation that Nico himself appeared to have exceeded the track boundary in his zeal to prevent Lewis from overtaking.

#487 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,026 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:51

Is that actually a rule? I don't think there's a proper definition anywhere what "alongside" really means.

True, Henrik, it's not a rule. I think it's the general convention, although figuring that out in the mire of different stewarding decisions is difficult.

For example, in Alonso's incident vs Kubica at Silverstone in 2010, I was very much of the opinion that as Alonso was halfway alongside he was entitled to a car's width of room (and therefore was pushed off track and didn't deserve a penalty for overtaking on the outside). The opinion from the stewards, many racing experts and most people on here, though, was that although Alonso was more than halfway up as he was on the outside on the exit of the corner Kubica was entitled to "hang him out to dry". So the convention then becomes: "halfway alongside, leave a car's width of room - unless you are on the exit of a bend and the other car is on the outside, in which case you do not have to do so".

#488 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 3,925 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:17

This is true, but that route provides no tangible benefits for an overtaking move - it doesn't shorten the track and it would be terribly dirty - you surely only go there if forced to.


He was not forced to. He could have backed off. Hamilton initiated a move, Rosberg defended it (legitimately and well). Surely he should have to back off, and try next time to pass within the limits of the track? Otherwise, why paint those lines at all?



#489 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,026 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:25

Only corner cutting to gain a place seems to be punished when it comes to driving off track.

I seem to recall an incident where Kimi took a place having driven outside the white lines at T1 in Spa (in 2009?). The general opinion was that as he lengthened the track as a result of his line, he didn't gain an advantage. I guess the same argument could be used for Hamilton.

It's all a bit of a bugger's muddle, though, and this latest decision (at least the reasoning given for it) hasn't helped at all.

#490 Xpat

Xpat
  • Member

  • 4,091 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:25

He was not forced to. He could have backed off. Hamilton initiated a move, Rosberg defended it (legitimately and well). Surely he should have to back off, and try next time to pass within the limits of the track? Otherwise, why paint those lines at all?


They paint those lines on the track to keep Hamilton down!

#491 Sevach

Sevach
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 21:04

I thought there was a rule about deliberately crowding someone on the edges of the track... rule that Rosberg definitely broke.

Rosberg waits for the guy trying to overtake to choose his line and make his move and then, after that, he cuts infront of them giving no room.
That's not defensive driving, that's dirty driving, swerving into a guy on the straight and running him out of road requires no skill whatsoever.

I like my defensive driving old school, doing the switchback, holding the inside line, braking later... those swerving moves on the straight need to go, it's just strong arming someone.

#492 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 2,925 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 21:20

Say what you will but the move Michael made on Rubens, as aggressive as it was, was a slower defensive swerve. Rubens had time to back out and enough space to just get through.

Nico was very quick to swerve. Rubens might have seen his space get less and less but Nico's move surprised Hamilton and Alonso. Rubens had tarmac, those guys got dirty sandy concrete.

The funny thing is that Hamilton didn't pass Nico off track, he passed him into the braking zone. When he was off track he didn't get ahead of Nico.

But his move is a byproduct of a silly FIA move of one defensive move only. Its a dangerous precedent because you can legitimately swerve (and not give space) to someone and push them off the track. Nico is only going to get payback for that move by Alonso. Before if a driver was halfway alongside you had to give space and not shut the door (Massa and Hamilton Korea???), that all seems out of the window now.



#493 Xpat

Xpat
  • Member

  • 4,091 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 21:30

I thought there was a rule about deliberately crowding someone on the edges of the track... rule that Rosberg definitely broke.

Rosberg waits for the guy trying to overtake to choose his line and make his move and then, after that, he cuts infront of them giving no room.
That's not defensive driving, that's dirty driving, swerving into a guy on the straight and running him out of road requires no skill whatsoever.

I like my defensive driving old school, doing the switchback, holding the inside line, braking later... those swerving moves on the straight need to go, it's just strong arming someone.


How do you crowd someone off the track when they are behind you? Rosberg was moving to the right well before Hamilton. Hamilton was trying to pass to the right while Rosberg was already moving to the right. Rosberg anticipated where Hamilton would try to pass and went that direction first. He took a defensive line and Hamilton was not willing to concede the line had disappeared.



#494 WhiteBlue

WhiteBlue
  • Member

  • 2,138 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 21:38

Only corner cutting to gain a place seems to be punished when it comes to driving off track.

I seem to recall an incident where Kimi took a place having driven outside the white lines at T1 in Spa (in 2009?). The general opinion was that as he lengthened the track as a result of his line, he didn't gain an advantage. I guess the same argument could be used for Hamilton.

That seems to e the gist of it, as I mentioned in my previous post. On a straight you are not gaining an unsporting advantage. The drivers will have to factor that in when they are racing on modern track with huge run offs even on straights. Perhaps it would make more sense to make those asphalt strips slippery by painting so that you don't keep the traction you have on the track?

Edited by WhiteBlue, 24 April 2012 - 21:39.


#495 Roonaldo

Roonaldo
  • Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:05

Perhaps it would make more sense to make those asphalt strips slippery by painting so that you don't keep the traction you have on the track?


Lol :rotfl:

Hopefully nobody will crash or lose control and require the need to slow down quickly before hitting a solid object. Especially in the rain...

#496 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 3,925 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:05

Only corner cutting to gain a place seems to be punished when it comes to driving off track.
I seem to recall an incident where Kimi took a place having driven outside the white lines at T1 in Spa (in 2009?). The general opinion was that as he lengthened the track as a result of his line, he didn't gain an advantage. I guess the same argument could be used for Hamilton.

It's all a bit of a bugger's muddle, though, and this latest decision (at least the reasoning given for it) hasn't helped at all.


This seems to be the case, and you are right about Kimi at Spa 2009. Why not just make those areas officially part of the track and leave no doubt about whether they can be used or not? Then Rosberg might have gone wider, if he felt he needed to in order to defend his position. At least both drivers (and Alonso) would be operating to the same rules. The lack of clarity for the drivers, made worse by only investigating these things after the race, is a farce.

#497 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,333 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:23

This seems to be the case, and you are right about Kimi at Spa 2009. Why not just make those areas officially part of the track and leave no doubt about whether they can be used or not? Then Rosberg might have gone wider, if he felt he needed to in order to defend his position. At least both drivers (and Alonso) would be operating to the same rules. The lack of clarity for the drivers, made worse by only investigating these things after the race, is a farce.




It is definitely the case but It's total crap as rules clearly say 'being off track', not inside or outside. In my book, Driver is entitled to 'chop' as long as the overtaking car is fully behind. When it's not, it becomes driving someone off track (especially when defending driver goes off track too), and that's only acceptable at the exit of the corner when car in front is entitled to take racing line (but still, rules say he has to leave space I think). On the straights physically blocking space with a car is ok (as long as the one move rule is respecteD) pushing someone off it is not. Rosberg was really lucky to get away with that imo.

#498 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:39

Only corner cutting to gain a place seems to be punished when it comes to driving off track.

I seem to recall an incident where Kimi took a place having driven outside the white lines at T1 in Spa (in 2009?). The general opinion was that as he lengthened the track as a result of his line, he didn't gain an advantage. I guess the same argument could be used for Hamilton.

It's all a bit of a bugger's muddle, though, and this latest decision (at least the reasoning given for it) hasn't helped at all.


The reasoning in the Kimi incident was that there was a standing instruction from Race Control for years that they could use the outside of T1 to avoid accidents that could potentially block the track entirely, if memory serves that instruction was only amended in 2011. Same applies to Vettel/Button in Melbourne last year, there was an instruction from race conrol that they could use the outside of T4, that was changed this year.


As to the incidents at hand in this thread, in the Alonso incident Rosberg was well within his rights to position the car wherever he wanted, Alonso was never alongside him to claim the right to be given space, he always had the option of going the other way (on the inside). I haven't seen any camera angles that give a decent idea of how Rosberg/Hamilton were positioned so I have no opinion on that one

Edited by engel, 25 April 2012 - 08:42.


#499 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:35

The manoeuvre with Lewis looked spectacular but the stewards saw it my way (or is that I saw it their way?!?). Lewis did not have any part of the McLaren alongside the Mercedes while Nico was moving to the edge of the track to block that line and Lewis really was being offered the choice of back off or crash. Tough but fair as they said, and let's not forget the stewards now have a former F1 driver on the panel.

As for the Alonso situation it looked very commonplace, I suspect we heard Alonso's radio and saw the replay because of superficial similarities with the other incident.

I think Nico was pretty well on the borderline of the rules and the danger of the situation was as much in Lewis failing to take the option he was offered to get out of the throttle as happens countless times in a GP.

As for the comments here comparing the Rubens/Michael shocker, it just shows the lack of commonsense, obectivity or inside knowledge of the person posting. The replays of that incident clearly showed a situation where wheels touching wheels or wall at high speed was almost inevitable.

That's my view anyway, a wee bit naughty on Nico's part but not too different to the many times Jack Brabham gave opponents trying to pass a taste of his tough tactics. Or go to any speedway on a Saturday night.

Edited by Muz Bee, 29 April 2012 - 02:05.


Advertisement

#500 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,850 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:18

Drivers debate going off track




Some drivers felt there should be a zero-tolerance approach to this - with seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher and Ferrari's Felipe Massa particularly vocal.

But others - including world champion Sebastian Vettel - argued that stewards should be allowed to use their discretion.

This was because there are such a wide variety of instances in which this could apply, and a penalty would in some of the less serious cases be draconian - an example it would be for gaining 0.1secs by cutting a chicane.

Vettel and others felt that stewards should be able to take into account the size of the advantage gained and the mitigating circumstances that could be involved.

It is understood no driver actively disagreed with this view once Vettel had raised it.

Whiting will discuss the issue with the race stewards in Spain on Friday evening and come to a definitive decision on the way forward by the end of Saturday.


I did find it quite amusing that the two who thought there should be a zero tolerance approach were those who are know for extremely tough borderline defending, particularly one Michael Schumacher, whose moves sometimes force other drivers off track.

While I do like the fact that a more case by case approach has been advocated, I can't help thinking its open to bias, inconsistency, and potentially fowl foul play.

Edited by Kvothe, 11 May 2012 - 18:34.