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Rosberg chopping both Hamilton and Alonso


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#51 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:35

Compare it to two drivers braking in to a chicane. The car on the inside going in pushes the other car wide, and that car cuts the second part and takes the position. Nobody would question the need to give the place back in that situation, and the rules show that it's not "cutting a corner", but "outside the track limits" that matters.


Raikkonen took several positions at the 2009 Belgian Grand Prix by going off the course - without being pushed off by anybody else. Sutil also overtook Badoer at the same grand prix by going off the track. I'm not saying that's right, but the precedent certainly seems to be there. It'd be difficult to justify that Hamilton gained grip, traction etc. by being forced off the road.

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#52 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:38

Lol at people calling for a Lewis penalty. Some people really must hate the poor guy.

#53 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:41

Rosberg moved way too late. He can try and hold the inside for turn 4, but he shouldn´t wait that much to defend.

I bet he´ll get a penalty.

#54 Fudce

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:42

Raikkonen took several positions at the 2009 Belgian Grand Prix by going off the course - without being pushed off by anybody else. Sutil also overtook Badoer at the same grand prix by going off the track. I'm not saying that's right, but the precedent certainly seems to be there. It'd be difficult to justify that Hamilton gained grip, traction etc. by being forced off the road.

I was up in arms about Raikkonen in 2009, and if I recall that incident was the one which pretty much caused the clarification in the 'track limits' rules.

The rules say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage by driving outside the track limits. Overtaking a car is quite an advantage, and he did so outside the track limits.

#55 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:42

yes because there wasn't a barrier when Rosberg did it huh?


Nowhere near that close. Both Rosberg's defending and the fact Hamilton still made the move anyway is a result of concrete car park circuits with endless runoff. The risk is much lower so the mindsets are much different.

#56 Coops3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:42

Give the place back.

If he had, I'd be almost cetain Rosberg would have got a penalty in race, but the fact remains that he overtook outside the track limits.


Compare it to two drivers braking in to a chicane. The car on the inside going in pushes the other car wide, and that car cuts the second part and takes the position. Nobody would question the need to give the place back in that situation, and the rules show that it's not "cutting a corner", but "outside the track limits" that matters.


Did he though? I'd like to see it again personally. From memory seeing it the first time, he only completed the pass into the following corner, so I don't think it's clear cut.

#57 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:45

The same thing happened in the GP2 race 1 and it was invesitaged but I didn't catch the result. I don't wanna go to Autosport because I haven't watched race 2 yet but does anyone know the outcome of that investigation?

#58 AMG FAN

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:45

Rosberg made one move. On the edge of the rules, but easily within them.

A quiet word with Ross is all is needed, because on another day it can result in contact but it didn't so move on.

Leave the stewards out of it, or they'll make a precedent and ruin many races to come.

guess you think crowding is legal then.

#59 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:45

I was up in arms about Raikkonen in 2009, and if I recall that incident was the one which pretty much caused the clarification in the 'track limits' rules.

The rules say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage by driving outside the track limits. Overtaking a car is quite an advantage, and he did so outside the track limits.


Are you serious??? Overtaking while forced onto dirt at 140 mph is not overtaking gained through an "advantage"

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#60 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:46

The same thing happened in the GP2 race 1 and it was invesitaged but I didn't catch the result. I don't wanna go to Autosport because I haven't watched race 2 yet but does anyone know the outcome of that investigation?


No further action.

#61 AMG FAN

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:46

Nowhere near that close. Both Rosberg's defending and the fact Hamilton still made the move anyway is a result of concrete car park circuits with endless runoff. The risk is much lower so the mindsets are much different.

so you call the diff btw the barrier and Lewis "endless runoff"? :rolleyes:

#62 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:46

Lol at people calling for a Lewis penalty. Some people really must hate the poor guy.

Haven't seen much but won't be surprised at all. Although it's be way out of proportion and fairness.

#63 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:47

I think it was fair enough defensive driving. What I found hilarious was that Rosberg was the one actually complaining about Hamilton overtaking off the track, now that was just stupid. But penalty for Rosberg would be a bit harsh. I mean, didn't Alonso force Vettel off the track at Monza last year as well?


Youre not allowed to run off the track. Nevermind overtake off the track. Thats a rule.

#64 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:48

No further action.


Thanks, I guess a precedent has been set then. Although Rosberg's move was worse than that one IMO.

For the folks comparing it to Monza '11, Alonso left a cars width for Vettel (just) wheras Rosberg chopped so far across that his own wheels were on the white line nevermind the car beside him.

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 22 April 2012 - 14:49.


#65 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:48

Youre not allowed to run off the track. Nevermind overtake off the track. Thats a rule.


And another rule is you're not allowed to crowd another car off the track, correct?

#66 dau

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:48

well rubens did try and there was an outrage on schumacher then
of course if britney does it it's ok

Iirc, Rubens was alongside Schumacher who then started to push him to the barrier. Rosberg started his move right on the exit of the corner and then drove in a straight line and i'm not sure Lewis or Alonso were already alongside. Like i said, i need to see that again, onboard or heli angle would be great.

#67 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:49

Youre not allowed to run off the track. Nevermind overtake off the track. Thats a rule.


So drivers should crash on purpose rather than try to avoid contact?

#68 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:49

so you call the diff btw the barrier and Lewis "endless runoff"? :rolleyes:


There was at least two to three car widths of concrete, but it's not like either of them judged it like that. Rosberg chopped, Hamilton kept going because there was still road. If it was grass or gravel, I believe neither the chop nor the move would have been made is the point I'm making.

#69 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:49

Just saw a mini replay on sky rosberg had 2 tyres off the road when he was passed by Hamilton.



#70 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:50

Youre not allowed to run off the track. Nevermind overtake off the track. Thats a rule.


So someone pushes you off track. Penalty on you then. In fact, you should just ram them to prevent from being forced off. That's what you're saying

Edited by NoDivergence, 22 April 2012 - 14:51.


#71 Fergo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:50

Personally I don't think a DQ or a suspension would be overly harsh, given that he did it twice and that it looked exceedingly dangerous.

#72 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:50

I was up in arms about Raikkonen in 2009, and if I recall that incident was the one which pretty much caused the clarification in the 'track limits' rules.

The rules say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage by driving outside the track limits. Overtaking a car is quite an advantage, and he did so outside the track limits.


The operative word here is "by"; it suggests that it is necessary that the means by which the advantage is gained is by driving outside the track limits. Just because there was a cause (Hamilton being forced off) and an effect (Hamilton gaining a position) does not necessarily mean there was a correlation between the two. Would there be any reason why Hamilton would have gained an advantage by exceeding the track limits? He did not make the corner shorter - it was a straight - and he didn't gain any better traction - if anything he impeded his own traction - so I would suggest that he couldn't have gained a quantifiable advantage by doing so. The fact that he gained a position in doing so is merely coincidental.

Edited by Muppetmad, 22 April 2012 - 14:52.


#73 Fudce

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:51

And another rule is you're not allowed to crowd another car off the track, correct?

You're not allowed to force another car off the track. We've yet to see if Rosberg did force them off the track. (Were they side by side, or following each other?)

Again, I'm calling it 50/50 for Ham/Ros, Rosberg shouldn't have swerved like that. Hamilton shouldn't have overtaken outside the limits.

#74 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:52

I was up in arms about Raikkonen in 2009, and if I recall that incident was the one which pretty much caused the clarification in the 'track limits' rules.

The rules say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage by driving outside the track limits. Overtaking a car is quite an advantage, and he did so outside the track limits.


Rather dumb thinking. Hamilton was not there by choice. Driving down a straight on dust and sand is not an advantage in Formula 1 compared to driving down the straight on tarmac.

The rules also say that you are not allowed to deliberatley force another car off track (it's called crowding) in order to defend position. It's in the same paragraph as the statement which prohibits weaving.

Try and balance up what both drivers were doing, and inject some common sense if you can.

#75 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:53

Will Buxton ‏ @willbuxton



Rosberg is meeting the stewards now. Walked in carrying a piece of paper with some notes on it... preparing his defence methinks.

#76 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:53

The operative word here is "by"; it suggests that it is necessary that the means by which the advantage is gained is by driving outside the track limits. Just because there was a cause (Hamilton being forced off) and an effect (Hamilton gaining a position) does not necessarily mean there was a correlation between the two. Would there be any reason why Hamilton would have gained an advantage by exceeding the track limits? He did not make the corner shorter - it was a straight - and he didn't gain any better traction - if anything he impeded his own traction - so I would suggest that he couldn't have gained a quantifiable advantage by doing so. The fact that he gained a position by doing so is merely coincidental.


Correct. I think some people here are totally confused as to what unfair advantage really means

#77 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:53

For all the Vettel fans salivating over his off-road overtake of Alonso at Monza last year, Lewis showed how it's really done.

#78 jj2728

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:53

He's just learning his craft from the master......

#79 SPBHM

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:54

it was excessive, and he did it twice, a big part of the blame goes to those who decided to analyze the first incident after the race... that was clearly something for a DT.

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#80 Fudce

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:55

The operative word here is "by"; it suggests that it is necessary that the means by which the advantage is gained is by driving outside the track limits. Just because there was a cause (Hamilton being forced off) and an effect (Hamilton gaining a position) does not necessarily mean there was a correlation between the two. Would there be any reason why Hamilton would have gained an advantage by exceeding the track limits? He did not make the corner shorter - it was a straight - and he didn't gain any better traction - if anything he impeded his own traction - so I would suggest that he couldn't have gained a quantifiable advantage by doing so. The fact that he gained a position by doing so is merely coincidental.

The question of advantage then becomes not "was it gained", but "what would have happened?".

Basicly there were three things Lewis could have done in this situation.

A. Continue and move to the right, drive off the track, and take the place.

B. Continue on the inside line to the corner. He would have had to break sharply, may have spun, or hit Rosberg.

C. Move back to the racing line and attempt to overtake around the outside.



He chose option A.

Had he chose option B, he would have certainly lost time.

If he chose C, would he have got through? It's not certain.


Therefore he gained an advantage by going off the track (option A)

#81 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:55

He's just learning his craft from the master......


Not sure if cereal or kidding

#82 figue

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:56

what did fernando say on the radio? I couldn't catch it as he was shouting

#83 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:56

He's just learning his craft from the master......

Almost got desperate we'll miss your contribution :rotfl:

#84 King Six

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:57

Interesting to see if he gets a penalty, so far nothing as of yet, but it could push a few guys up as they were all racing very close.

#85 Mackey

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 14:59

I need to see the onboards but my impression is that he forced both Lewis and Alonso off track when they were alongside him. Should be a DT penalty

#86 Anomnader

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:00

Looking at the repeats, Rosberg on Lewis was a lot worse

#87 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:01

Unreal on board with Lewis nearly in the barrier!!!'

#88 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:01

And another rule is you're not allowed to crowd another car off the track, correct?


I havent seen it, as live timing and this forum was dead unreachable. But yeah, crowding is also prohibited. Give them both a warning.

#89 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:01

WTF Rosberg. GTFOOOOO. Should be a race BAN for that

#90 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:02

Looking at the repeats, Rosberg on Lewis was a lot worse

I didn't realise how close Lewis was to the barriers there. It was definitely more dangerous than I initially thought.

#91 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:02

Herbert blaming rosberg

#92 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:02

Just seen it again, Rosberg could have killed Lewis.

#93 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:02

Unreal on board with Lewis nearly in the barrier!!!'


Unbelievable! He could have been killed, God that was close :eek:

Edited by Markn93, 22 April 2012 - 15:03.


#94 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:02

Neither Alonso nor Hamilton were even alongside by the time Rosberg committed to his defence. Alonso gave it up but a fired up Lewis still made the move anyway, and chose to go alongside and off the track. That is a 50/50 call but surely no penalties are needed.

#95 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:03

As bad as Schumacher on Rubens. Absolutely shocking most ridiculous thing all season so far. Appalling. Hell, I'd be asking Rosberg to be BANNED from the next race at least if I was Lewis

#96 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:03

He shouldn't have even had the opportunity to do it again with Alonso, should have been a drive through at the very very least after he did it to Hamilton. Imagine Hamilton or Schumacher had made that move, they wouldn't have even hesitated to penalise them.

#97 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:03

The question of advantage then becomes not "was it gained", but "what would have happened?".

Basicly there were three things Lewis could have done in this situation.

A. Continue and move to the right, drive off the track, and take the place.

B. Continue on the inside line to the corner. He would have had to break sharply, may have spun, or hit Rosberg.

C. Move back to the racing line and attempt to overtake around the outside.



He chose option A.

Had he chose option B, he would have certainly lost time.

If he chose C, would he have got through? It's not certain.


Therefore he gained an advantage by going off the track (option A)


But Hamilton was in that position because of the infringement of a rule by Rosberg; would he have put his car in that position otherwise? I'd say no. Rosberg chose to illegally and intentionally crowd Hamilton off the track - therefore he cannot expect Hamilton to surrender resolutely. Rosberg was the one who initiated the scenario and so should not have been shocked to see Hamilton attempt to make do with the awkward situation he was placed in - Rosberg made his bed, and he was thus forced to lie in it.

#98 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:03

Unreal on board with Lewis nearly in the barrier!!!'


Hamilton could have given it up, and not made a great overtaking move albeit off the circuit.

#99 Aieljose

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:04

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...

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#100 ed24f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:04

Rather dumb thinking. Hamilton was not there by choice. Driving down a straight on dust and sand is not an advantage in Formula 1 compared to driving down the straight on tarmac.

The rules also say that you are not allowed to deliberatley force another car off track (it's called crowding) in order to defend position. It's in the same paragraph as the statement which prohibits weaving.

Try and balance up what both drivers were doing, and inject some common sense if you can.


Firstly, the run-offs in Bahrain are not sand, they are painted concrete.

I'd say both Hamilton and Rosberg were probably guilty. Regardless of what Rosberg did, you can't pass someone off the track. Rosberg deserves a harsher penalty though, I'd say a 25 second penalty for Rosberg and a reprimand for Lewis.


For all the Vettel fans salivating over his off-road overtake of Alonso at Monza last year, Lewis showed how it's really done.


Vettel's was on grass, Hamilton was on concrete, a big difference I think...