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Rosberg chopping both Hamilton and Alonso


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#101 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:05

Alonso one was fine, alonso was behind.

Hill and brundle also blaming rosberg for the lewis one, for my money rosberg starts moving across as lewis starts his move (from behind) but lewis gets alongside as rosberg continues towards the side of the track and actually gets two wheels off track himself...so not compeltely blatant from rosberg but probably worthy of a penalty - and certainly lewis can say he was pushed off so should be able to continue with the move.

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#102 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:05

As bad as Schumacher on Rubens. Absolutely shocking most ridiculous thing all season so far. Appalling. Hell, I'd be asking Rosberg to be BANNED from the next race at least if I was Lewis


Not at all. Rosberg had already made his move before Hamilton or Alonso were alongside. Schumacher kept moving on Rubens in Hungary, despite Rubens being next to him. The wall was closer too, which is why it was so scary. Time to leave this thread now. :lol:

#103 Fergo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:05

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...

The difference is imo that because it was on a straight it's a lot different. Reminiscent of Schumacher and Hamilton last year at Monza, but more dangerous.

#104 Fudce

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:06

Neither Alonso nor Hamilton were even alongside by the time Rosberg committed to his defence. Alonso gave it up but a fired up Lewis still made the move anyway, and chose to go alongside and off the track. That is a 50/50 call but surely no penalties are needed.

I'd agree with that to a point.

It was a bit hit & miss from Rosberg, and he did it twice, and nearly a third time with Di Resta. I'd give him a time penalty, Hamilton should be let off with a reprimand for the overtake outside the limits due to the circumstances (he was given very little choice)

#105 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:06

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...


chicanes and straights are quite different though aren't they?

#106 SCUDmissile

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:06

Yes he does. That was just bullsh*t. Hamilton as well, good job of avoiding him, then to do it again with Alonso? Something has to be done.

#107 Dalin80

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:07

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...



vettel overtook button last year with 4 wheels off track and the stewards didn't care about that.

#108 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:07

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...


The difference is that in that situation Alonso irrevocably gained an advantage; he shortened the corner. Hamilton did not shorten the corner nor gain any traction - if anything, his traction was hindered.

I also personally had no issue with Kubica's move - he was moving towards the racing line and so his crowding of Alonso could at least be argued to be consequential. Rosberg, on the other hand, moved with the intent of crowding Hamilton off the course and certainly was moving away from the racing line. That isn't in the rule book though, just my personal opinion.

Edited by Muppetmad, 22 April 2012 - 15:08.


#109 tarmac

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:07

Move on Hamilton was on grey area. Alonso should stop whining though he was not side by side

#110 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:08

I'd agree with that to a point.

It was a bit hit & miss from Rosberg, and he did it twice, and nearly a third time with Di Resta. I'd give him a time penalty, Hamilton should be let off with a reprimand for the overtake outside the limits due to the circumstances (he was given very little choice)


I think that's reasonable (except maybe a harsher penalty for doing the same thing multiple times). A reprimand to remind that overtakes like that should not be encouraged is fine.

#111 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:08

I will be interested to see how the stewards view these.

Alonso was always more than a car length behind Rosberg so it could be argued that his defence was OK in that instance.
I haven't seen a front facing onboard from Hamilton's car but from the head-on shot it looked to be fairly similar.

Given that he didn't have a car alongside when moving to the right edge of the track, I would take the view that he didn't force either Alonso or Hamilton off the track.

#112 LoudHoward

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:08

Hamilton wasn't cutting a corner though, so I don't see how he gained an advantage. What is his advantage? Oi, you, stop taking the long route down the straight and getting junk all over your tyres.

#113 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:08

Not at all. Rosberg had already made his move before Hamilton or Alonso were alongside. Schumacher kept moving on Rubens in Hungary, despite Rubens being next to him. The wall was closer too, which is why it was so scary. Time to leave this thread now. :lol:


I'm not sure you saw what happened, try and catch the highlights. Rosberg keeps moving across, like Schumi. Watch his wheels, one moment they're on the track, next their off the track, showing how he continued to move across. Lewis was bloody close to the wall too.

#114 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:08

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...


:up: Well said

#115 timmy bolt

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...


There is no rule against it. There is a catch all rule that you can't gain an advantage. But what is considered an advantage isn't black and white. In theory, you always gain an advantage because you go off track and are allowed to stay in the race. What about if you gain 0.2s by cutting a corner, is that considered an advantage enough that you are given a penalty? There is always a little allowance for common sense in the rules.

#116 salamin

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

Hamilton could have given it up, and not made a great overtaking move albeit off the circuit.


Barrichello could have done the same, MS was still penalized

#117 Cenotaph

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

The difference is that in that situation Alonso irrevocably gained an advantage; he shortened the corner. Hamilton did not shorten the corner nor gain any traction - if anything, his traction was hindered.

I also personally had no issue with Kubica's move - he was moving towards the racing line and so his crowding of Alonso could at least be argued to be consequential. Rosberg, on the other hand, moved with the intent of crowding Hamilton off the course and certainly was moving away from the racing line.

Rosberg moved with the intent to defend the inside. Hamilton took the inside by any means. You guys are blowing this out of proportion. It was hard racing, but nothing worth a penalty, certainly not a time penalty.

#118 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

One final point, if the runoff was actually grass or gravel, Hamilton would have got out of the throttle like this:

It's just the nature of the current generation of circuits.

Edited by Disgrace, 22 April 2012 - 15:10.


#119 robefc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

I will be interested to see how the stewards view these.

Alonso was always more than a car length behind Rosberg so it could be argued that his defence was OK in that instance.
I haven't seen a front facing onboard from Hamilton's car but from the head-on shot it looked to be fairly similar.

Given that he didn't have a car alongside when moving to the right edge of the track, I would take the view that he didn't force either Alonso or Hamilton off the track.


With lewis he wasn't alongside when he started the move but he was before he got to the edge of the track I think...

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#120 Fudce

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

chicanes and straights are quite different though aren't they?

Chicanes and Straights are like chalk and cheese.

The black bit in the middle still has two white lines on either side, however.

#121 repete

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:09

It looked ok to me.
Both drivers were still behind Rosberg as he made his way to the edge of the track. He only made one defensive move.
Looked like good racing to me.

#122 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:10

Not really, a driver that forces you off the track should take a drive through. So a position gained should not need to be given back, ESPECIALLY when it was not through gaining an unfair advantage

#123 tarmac

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:10

Move on Hamilton was on grey area. Alonso should stop whining though he was not side by side

#124 ed24f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:11

Hamilton wasn't cutting a corner though, so I don't see how he gained an advantage. What is his advantage? Oi, you, stop taking the long route down the straight and getting junk all over your tyres.


The regulations say you cannot gain an advantage from leaving the track, regardless of whether it's a corner or straight.

#125 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:12

The regulations say you cannot gain an advantage from leaving the track, regardless of whether it's a corner or straight.


It wasn't an advantage to go off track on a straight. In fact it was a DISADVANTAGE

Edited by NoDivergence, 22 April 2012 - 15:12.


#126 Dalin80

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:12

The regulations say you cannot gain an advantage from leaving the track, regardless of whether it's a corner or straight.


rules also say you cannot punt someone off the track.

#127 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:12

It wasn't an advantage to go off track on a straight. In fact it was a DISADVANTAGE


True.

#128 bonjon1979a

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:13

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...

There is a rule that says you're not allowed to force a car off the track. With regard to leaving the track, you're not allowed to gain an advantage by leaving the track which Hamilton clearly didn't

#129 malibu

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:15

Alonso should stop crying and concentrate on his race
is there a news about stewards decision ?

#130 Rob

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:16

Rosberg should be disqualified. But he won't be. It'll take someone being killed before these dangerous moves are properly clamped down on.

#131 LoudHoward

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:17

The regulations say you cannot gain an advantage from leaving the track, regardless of whether it's a corner or straight.


What advantage did he gain? Think about it, he has part of is car alongside Rosberg, he's on the inside and he's on the track, it's a straight. All is swell. Rosberg then continues to move over and what exact advantage does Hamilton gain over Rosberg at this point that he didn't have the moment before he was shoved off the road? I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

The point some people are arguing here is ridiculous, it's like someone getting rammed and people complaining that the victim was then cheating because his car was underweight after his wing fell off. It might be technically true but common sense has to be utilised at some point in my opinion.

#132 Raziel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:17

Sorry but you can't overtake off track period! It's not a defence to say" well he pushed me off track" If a driver forces you off track thats all well and good but you still have to give the place back and let the stewards hand the lead driver the penalty. Have we all forgotten about a similar incident in silverstone 2010? Kubica forced alonso to cut the chicane, alonso didn't give the place back and was later penalized...


Year: 2007
Track: Fuji
Drivers: Kubica/Massa


enough said! :drunk:


#133 BernieEc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:18

Rosberg should be disqualified. But he won't be. It'll take someone being killed before these dangerous moves are properly clamped down on.


They do clam down on such moves (Only if its hamilton that did it :) )



#134 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:18

Year: 2007
Track: Fuji
Drivers: Kubica/Massa


enough said! :drunk:


The last lap doesn't count. ;)

#135 NoDivergence

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:18

What advantage did he gain? Think about it, he has part of is car alongside Rosberg, he's on the inside and he's on the track, it's a straight. All is swell. Rosberg then continues to move over and what exact advantage does Hamilton gain over Rosberg at this point that he didn't have the moment before he was shoved off the road? I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

The point some people are arguing here is ridiculous, it's like someone getting rammed and people complaining that the victim was then cheating because his car was underweight after his wing fell off. It might be technically true but common sense has to be utilised at some point in my opinion.


People are trying to find some form of fault based on biases, and even when using technical terms, they're still wrong.

Wrong in terms of the regulations, wrong in terms of the spirit of the regulations, wrong in terms of common sense.

#136 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:20

It's highly amusing to watch Lewis' detractors argue so passionately that he should get the penalty. I love the bitterness towards him, so funny.

Rosberg clearly at fault for both incidents.

#137 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:20

With lewis he wasn't alongside when he started the move but he was before he got to the edge of the track I think...


If that was the case then that would change things obviously. Would need to see an onboard from Lewis' car.

The move was abrubt and the stewards might look at it from a "dangerous manouvre" point of view too.

Interesting thing is that if they don't consider Rosberg at fault then there is the question of whether passed him whilst off track. It would round out a thoroughly miserable Sunday if they threw a penalty at him. I wouldn't totally rule that out although I think it's not likely.


#138 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:20

I didnt see it but if the reports here are anything to go by Rosberg broke this rule of the FIA sporting regulations:



"16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any
action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the
stewards and subsequently investigated) which :
(...)
e) Forced a driver off the track"


20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving
back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least
one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
20.5 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver
must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been
caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he
must allow the following driver to overtake."

In hindsight Rosberg mightv broken a few more rules, like not allowed to crowding cars.

For Hamilton it ermains to be seen whether they see his off track overtaking as justifiable to leave the limits of the track.



#139 Raziel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:22

The last lap doesn't count.;)


Really? Then, that are some really shitty rules if you ask me. :well:

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#140 HAM

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:22

Rosberg made one move. On the edge of the rules, but easily within them.

A quiet word with Ross is all is needed, because on another day it can result in contact but it didn't so move on.

Leave the stewards out of it, or they'll make a precedent and ruin many races to come.


Your ID name explains it all. :p This has nothing to do with defense driving, but more of destroying driving, as Alonso said when driving defencing you need to leave a small space and not the whole with of the track, other cars cannot vanish in the air.

#141 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:23

Both moves were more ruthless than Schumi at Hungary but there wasn't an immediate wall so in some ways less dangerous. In a way I was proud of Rosberg for showing some spine, on so many occasions when being attacked he has wilted like like a chocolate fireguard but then his pussy like whining over the radio ruined this new found respect I had for Britney.

#142 fatd

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:23

The way Alonso whined over the radio, you would've thought Nico gave him a puncture or something and his race was ruined.
I could see Nico at fault, a post-race penalty for him i think.

#143 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:24

Like someone has already said vettel got no penalty for passing button off the track in 2011.

#144 HAM

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:24

They should ban Nico (as kind as he might be) for 1 race for these 2 dangerous destroying blocks or paint his hair pink, that would be more of a punishment for him.

Oh wait that is no punishment for him either, he loves pink. damm.

Edited by HAM, 22 April 2012 - 15:24.


#145 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:24

Year: 2007
Track: Fuji
Drivers: Kubica/Massa


enough said! :drunk:


Whilst not trying to have a dig at you, considering how much has changed on the stewarding side, it's not really relevant using an incident from 4.5 years ago as precedent.

#146 ed24f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:25

There is a rule that says you're not allowed to force a car off the track. With regard to leaving the track, you're not allowed to gain an advantage by leaving the track which Hamilton clearly didn't


I never said Rosberg wasn't guilty, and he's definitely more so than Hamilton.


What advantage did he gain? Think about it, he has part of is car alongside Rosberg, he's on the inside and he's on the track, it's a straight. All is swell. Rosberg then continues to move over and what exact advantage does Hamilton gain over Rosberg at this point that he didn't have the moment before he was shoved off the road? I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

The point some people are arguing here is ridiculous, it's like someone getting rammed and people complaining that the victim was then cheating because his car was underweight after his wing fell off. It might be technically true but common sense has to be utilised at some point in my opinion.


Like I said above, Rosberg was the most guilty in this incident, but it doesn't mean Hamilton was blameless.

The advantage is quite clear, I think. Getting past another car using the runoff.

#147 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:25

He should absolutely be handed a penalty, though it would have been nice for them to have given it to him during the race.

#148 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:25

Both moves were more ruthless than Schumi at Hungary but there wasn't an immediate wall so in some ways less dangerous. In a way I was proud of Rosberg for showing some spine, on so many occasions when being attacked he has wilted like like a chocolate fireguard but then his pussy like whining over the radio ruined this new found respect I had for Britney.


Yes there was. I didn't notice it at first but there was a camera angle looking back over Lewis' right rear and he was seriously close to some serious damage.

#149 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:25

They should ban Nico (as kind as he might be) for 1 race for these 2 dangerous destroying blocks or paint his hair pink, that would be more of a punishment for him.

Oh wait that is no punishment for him either, he loves pink. damm.


Yellow!

#150 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 15:26

Like someone has already said vettel got no penalty for passing button off the track in 2011.


This one has been discussed before, T4 at Australia was designated as ok to overtake. They changed that for 2012 and installed more kerbing.