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Rosberg chopping both Hamilton and Alonso


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#301 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:45

agreed - it appears HAM's overtake outside of the track was not investigated - ALO was right behind ROS & HAM when the incident took place, so got a great view of it - in a way ALO should have done the same move on ROS instead of backing out. It is now perfectly acceptable to overtake off track, and presumably perfectly acceptable to block an opponent off the track as well

fun times ahead!


That was Massa behind.
The incident happened almost immediately after the first round of stops where Hamilton came out behind Alonso.


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#302 Ellios

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:47

That was Massa behind.
The incident happened almost immediately after the first round of stops where Hamilton came out behind Alonso.



yeah has been pointed out - thought it was ALO behind for some reason :blush:



#303 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:47

Now we wait to see someone try this where the outside of the track isn't also a track. Won't be a pretty sight, but apparently it's legal. The problem with the Hamilton incident is that Rosberg continues to move over even when Hamilton is off the circuit. So it's probably only right that Nico lost the place, morally. But legally I'm not sure how Lewis avoids a penalty here, maybe because it would make it seem like Hamilton was the offender in the whole incident.

EDIT: I do wonder though, would Lewis and Fernando have driven so far over if it wasn't a track like this? Maybe the run off makes this seem worse than it is. Because it doesn't seem the rules prevent what Nico did.

When Rosberg kept moving over it was his way of saying , "Hey, I took the inside line on the track! You cant just decide to go off the track because you didn't want to go to the outside like you should have."

#304 VresiBerba

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:50

Just so you can try and argue and justify each one? I'd rather not get into that.

Why am I not surprised. Seriously, when there are MANY, can't you at least mention one?

#305 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:52

Well according to the stewards:

http://www.fia.com/e...document-42.pdf

4. For more than half of the distance travelled by Car 8 in moving in a straight line towards the right hand edge of the track, Car 4 remained behind Car 8 andÍž
5. Because the delta speed between the two cars was quite significant it was difficult for Car 8 to detect
the exact position of Car 4 in relation to his own car;
6. Had a significant portion of Car 4 been alongside that of Car 8 whilst Car 4 still remained within the
confines of the track,
then the actions of Car 8 may not have been considered legitimate.


We can infer that Lewis was alongside but not by a significant amount(ie enough for Rosberg to detect) and not before Rosberg had already moved more then halfway across.

What I get from this is that the move by Rosberg under the FIA rules was enough to give Lewis a valid reason to leave the track, however the position of the two cars i.e. how far Lewis was along and how close Rosberg was to the edge of the track when Lewis came up alongside, absolves Rosberg from any liability.

In that context the ruling seems fair and understandable

Edited by Kvothe, 22 April 2012 - 17:53.


#306 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:53

Why am I not surprised. Seriously, when there are MANY, can't you at least mention one?

Yes I can. But I'm not going to be baited into getting into an argument I dont want to have and thats not even on-topic.

#307 PoleMan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:54

Was there a driver steward at this race?

I agree that the "creative interpretation" of the rulebook could result in some vengeful and bloody tactics on the circuit. Rosberg's moves may have been deemed "legal" according to the rules, but is that really the sort of driving the officials want to encourage? :confused:

Also, Lewis clearly had all 4 wheels off the circuit. If they don't feel Nico shoved him into that situation, then it is a "no brainer" penalty for Hamilton.

I happen to think Nico's behavior was unsporting to BOTH drivers, but they should have had the b@lls to make that call during the grand prix, without all this post-race drama. :mad:

Pandora's Box is now open. What awful things will crawl out of it? :cry:

#308 iotar

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:56

After seeing more angles etc Rosberg didn't force either Hamilton or Alonso off the track. They were both behind, Rosberg went to the right and both drivers followed. What I now don't understand is how Hamilton's pass was allowed since he wasn't forced off track.

I haven't seen Alonso one but after watching a replay I changed my mind.

Rosberg made a rather abrupt move but Hamilton was behind. Later it was his call to stay next to Mercedes. Sutil - Trulli 2009 was much worse. No penalty for Rosberg and it was clearly an overtake outside the track.

#309 Disgrace

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:58

Pandora's Box is now open. What awful things will crawl out of it? :cry:


Nothing. F1 always gets wound up about the new "grey area" every so often, for example, the hype surrounding retaining advantage after jumping a chicane in Spa 2008 and how quickly did that die down?

Another example was Schumacher's defending against Hamilton last year in Monza, which I found perfectly legal, but got some people's knickers in a twist but that died down quickly too.

#310 majkel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:58

I was all over Rosberg during the race, but seeing the replay of Hamilton's pass, it was Lewis who did some strange stuff over there. Not sure about Alonso though. Will have to rewatch.

OK, I did rewatch it and Alonso's one wasn't that clear cut. Is there Alonso's onboard available somewhere?

Edited by majkel, 22 April 2012 - 18:00.


#311 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:59

Was there a driver steward at this race?

I agree that the "creative interpretation" of the rulebook could result in some vengeful and bloody tactics on the circuit. Rosberg's moves may have been deemed "legal" according to the rules, but is that really the sort of driving the officials want to encourage? :confused:

Also, Lewis clearly had all 4 wheels off the circuit. If they don't feel Nico shoved him into that situation, then it is a "no brainer" penalty for Hamilton.

I happen to think Nico's behavior was unsporting to BOTH drivers, but they should have had the b@lls to make that call during the grand prix, without all this post-race drama. :mad:

Pandora's Box is now open. What awful things will crawl out of it? :cry:


From the report it seems they did think Nico shoved him off, but not purposefully and that Nico was unable to detect where he was approximately, thus not a penalty for either driver.


#312 mkoscevic

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:59

After seeing more angles etc Rosberg didn't force either Hamilton or Alonso off the track. They were both behind, Rosberg went to the right and both drivers followed.


Exactly, which is why Rosberg received no penalty.

What was funny tho, is how many idiots around simply don't get defensive part of the racing at all. It's hilarious.

#313 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:00

As a McLaren fan, it almost seems strange to be saying this, but as Hamilton was clearly not forced off track by Rosberg, I'm confused as to why the stewards are seemingly happy with Hamilton's overtake.


He moved back left to take his line for the next corner. I don't think Lewis being off track at that point affected that.

I would still like to see an onboard from Hamilton's car. Hamilton moved to the right edge of the track when there was still space there but it is not clear at all at what point the cars became overlapped. In this still, it looks like there is an overlap but according to the stewards there was not.

Posted Image


#314 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:01

Well according to the stewards:

http://www.fia.com/e...document-42.pdf

We can infer that Lewis was alongside but not by a significant amount(ie enough for Rosberg to detect) and not before Rosberg had already moved more then halfway across.

What I get from this is that the move by Rosberg under the FIA rules was enough to give Lewis a valid reason to leave the track, however the position of the two cars i.e. how far Lewis was along and how close Rosberg was to the edge of the track when Lewis came up alongside, absolves Rosberg from any liability.

In that context the ruling seems fair and understandable


The ruling seems to infer that Hamilton got a great tow, Rosberg made his move not realising Hamilton was there, Hamilton couldn't get out of the way so no penalty either way which seems fair as you say.

#315 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:02

He moved back left to take his line for the next corner. I don't think Lewis being off track at that point affected that.

I would still like to see an onboard from Hamilton's car. Hamilton moved to the right edge of the track when there was still space there but it is not clear at all at what point the cars became overlapped. In this still, it looks like there is an overlap but according to the stewards there was not.

Posted Image


The onboard is practically useless since it was facing the rear wing.

The Stewards didn't say there was no over lap they said

:

6. Had a significant portion of Car 4 been alongside that of Car 8
whilst Car 4 still remained within the
confines of the track, then the actions of Car 8 may not have been considered legitimate.


Where is the blind spot of an F1 car? I wonder if Lewis was in it.



#316 PoleMan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:04

Nothing. F1 always gets wound up about the new "grey area" every so often, for example, the hype surrounding retaining advantage after jumping a chicane in Spa 2008 and how quickly did that die down?

Another example was Schumacher's defending against Hamilton last year in Monza, which I found perfectly legal, but got some people's knickers in a twist but that died down quickly too.


And every so often a driver is killed on the circuit.

That's why they have instituted rules to prevent dangerous or reckless driving. These guys risk their lives each time they get in a race car whether in practice or a grand prix. We shouldn't be so complacent or smug as to take those risks for granted.

#317 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:06

From the report it seems they did think Nico shoved him off, but not purposefully and that Nico was unable to detect where he was approximately, thus not a penalty for either driver.


But even that doesn't make much sense. What other reason would Rosberg have to move 5 or 6 car widths off the racing line if not to defend against a car that was even further right?




#318 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:08

The onboard is practically useless since it was facing the rear wing.

The Stewards didn't say there was no over lap they said

Where is the blind spot of an F1 car? I wonder if Lewis was in it.


Did Lewis' car have no forward facing camera today? If not, I guess we will never know.


#319 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:09

But even that doesn't make much sense. What other reason would Rosberg have to move 5 or 6 car widths off the racing line if not to defend against a car that was even further right?


To defend the inside?
I don't know if you saw it but in the GP2 race today it was the same, the cars particularly Colado would go right to the edge of the track to prevent the car getting the inside line, forcing them to take the outside line.

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#320 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:10

Did Lewis' car have no forward facing camera today? If not, I guess we will never know.


Can they have more then one camera?

The onboard replay Sky showed had the camera clearly facing the rear wing.

#321 Darth Sidious

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:12

He moved back left to take his line for the next corner. I don't think Lewis being off track at that point affected that.

I would still like to see an onboard from Hamilton's car. Hamilton moved to the right edge of the track when there was still space there but it is not clear at all at what point the cars became overlapped. In this still, it looks like there is an overlap but according to the stewards there was not.

Posted Image


Very unscientific method, I know, but if I hold a straight edge on the monitor at the point where rear tyres touch the tarmac, Hamilton's front tyres are right on that line, too.

Seems to me that his nose was alongside Rosberg's rear wing. Perhaps the stewards figured both strayed into a grey area and turned a blind eye.

tbh, I'm not going to make up my mind until I see an onboard from Hamilton's car or an overhead.

#322 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:14

Im looking forward to more onboard footage mostly from Lewis' car will show us the story.

#323 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:14

There is definitely an on-board camera for Lewis, they showed it on Sky at the time.

#324 VresiBerba

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:18

Yes I can. But I'm not going to be baited into getting into an argument I dont want to have and thats not even on-topic.

So you can't name a single one, then. Check.

#325 Realyn

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:22

Sadly the youtube video of it is no longer up, but hamilton did exactly the same thing to glock at monza 2008 ... nobody cared back then either.

edit: http://www.youtube.c...JvQhZCsuM#t=84s

Edited by Realyn, 22 April 2012 - 18:32.


#326 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:25

To defend the inside?
I don't know if you saw it but in the GP2 race today it was the same, the cars particularly Colado would go right to the edge of the track to prevent the car getting the inside line, forcing them to take the outside line.


Of course he was defending the inside but if the cars were overlapped (as it appears) then "I didn't see him" becomes a poor defence.

He was aware that Hamilton was on his right (that's why he was defending the inside) but was not aware whether Hamilton was still fully behind. To then keep moving right depends fully on there being no overlap otherwise the other guy has to go off track or make contact.


#327 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:27

Sadly the youtube video of it is no longer up, but hamilton did exactly the same thing to glock at monza 2008 ... nobody cared back then either.


... and Button did the same to Hamilton in Canada last year. The spray from it being a wet track was a mitigating factor in both cases.


#328 911

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:36

IMO, I thought Nico should have been given a penalty after his second blocking incident (Alonso), especially because he held his line for a few seconds after he made the move. He's lucky to come away from Bahrain without a penalty.

#329 ClubmanGT

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:41

Hamilton complaining about someone running him wide during an attempted pass is irony in its purest condensed form. He is the master at not leaving any room at all, and is never ever pulled up on it.

#330 ivey

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:55

sent



Hamilton complaining about someone running him wide during an attempted pass is irony in its purest condensed form. He is the master at not leaving any room at all, and is never ever pulled up on it.

actually Hamilton has said nothing about the incident, Nico was the one whining that Lewis passed him from outside the track :D

#331 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:59

So you can't name a single one, then. Check.

Keep trying. :wave:

#332 iotar

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:03

actually Hamilton has said nothing about the incident, Nico was the one whining that Lewis passed him from outside the track :D

And rightly so, because this is what happened. Rosberg did nothing wrong.

#333 AMG FAN

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:28

Hamilton complaining about someone running him wide during an attempted pass is irony in its purest condensed form. He is the master at not leaving any room at all, and is never ever pulled up on it.

Hamilton didn't complain about anything,you would know this if you didn't foam from the mouth so much that it's blinkering your view.

Edited by AMG FAN, 22 April 2012 - 19:28.


#334 Longtimefan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:30

If it was MS rather than Nico, I can imagine how Brundle & co would have been screaming for a penalty.

But Nico doing it twice in the same race, stewards are crazy, seems the rules are different depending on who's driving.


#335 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:39

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Don't think that's acceptable.

#336 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:44

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Don't think that's acceptable.


the stewards have deemed it legal and explained their decision....

#337 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:46

The stewards are not a holly cow, neither am I a contracted driver to obey their decision, you know.

#338 peter89

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:48

If that was Hamilton instead of Rosberg he would be hit with a penalty, no doubt about that.
For me, britney's behavior today was way worse than hamilton's at 2011 Monaco GP. I mean, let's compare the 2 situations. Lewis did then nothing wrong in comparison to what Rosberg has done today. Yet the stewards have different opinion. The lack of consistency in their decisions is just outrageous. :down:

#339 SirRacer

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:59

the stewards have deemed it legal and explained their decision....

I read it but english isn't my mother language and it's hard for me to understand.

So, please, can you explain me what are the circumstances that allow you to force a driver off the track like rosberg did?

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#340 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:02

If that was Hamilton instead of Rosberg he would be hit with a penalty, no doubt about that.
For me, britney's behavior today was way worse than hamilton's at 2011 Monaco GP. I mean, let's compare the 2 situations. Lewis did then nothing wrong in comparison to what Rosberg has done today. Yet the stewards have different opinion. The lack of consistency in their decisions is just outrageous. :down:


Leopards don't change their spots. watch at 0:44

#341 1001

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:19

I read it but english isn't my mother language and it's hard for me to understand.

So, please, can you explain me what are the circumstances that allow you to force a driver off the track like rosberg did?

When Rosberg initiated the move to the right, Hamilton wasn't alongside. The stewards concluded that by the time Hamilton was alongside, Rosberg was commited to his move right and wouldn't have been able to react by the time he realised. At the same time I presume they concluded that Hamilton had to take avoiding action due to the high closing speed by driving off track (which is why he didn't get a penalty for overtaking off track).

So racing incident. I'd like to see some onboard shots to see if I agree.

#342 kissTheApex

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:20

very poor driving, i guess winning last week has gone to his head


My exact feelings.

#343 choyothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:29

The move on Alonso (2nd one) was worse than the one on Hamilton, there he pushed Alonso alongside him a lot longer towards the edge even though he must've seen him there. Arguable that he should've had a penalty there, but not from the one with Hamilton IMO.

#344 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:46

Certainly very rough from Rosberg, but still I'm okay with letting it go, just. He has certainly picked two of the toughest opponents, could become interesting in future encounters.

#345 Lambo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:56

Good forceable racing. Based on Rosberg's record you have to imagine the whole thing would have played out differently had there been walls. LH decided to fight on, FA backed out. The only laughable part was Rosberg moaning he had been overtaken and FA moaning about Rosberg. Perhaps in the end we will learn that Lewis moaned too.... but what ever happened great move. Impressed with all that rubbish on his tyres he didn't sale straight on at the next corner.

#346 SCUDmissile

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:58

Im sorry, but I just saw the in board with Alonso. He opened a gap, and then decided to drive diagonally when Alonso moved in on the inside. They would have banged wheels if Alonso moved back out the inside.
So then Rosberg pushes Alonso out onto the sand.
Well, I guess nothing we can do about it now. But Alonso was not happy next time, the driver might not let that slide.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 22 April 2012 - 20:59.


#347 jrg19

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:59

Anyone found an epic photo of Lewis taking Nico to the cleaners on the sand yet?

Edited by jrg19, 22 April 2012 - 20:59.


#348 Anomnader

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:01

The move on Alonso (2nd one) was worse than the one on Hamilton, there he pushed Alonso alongside him a lot longer towards the edge even though he must've seen him there. Arguable that he should've had a penalty there, but not from the one with Hamilton IMO.


yeah of course it was, figures.

#349 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:02

Sadly the youtube video of it is no longer up, but hamilton did exactly the same thing to glock at monza 2008 ... nobody cared back then either.

edit: http://www.youtube.c...JvQhZCsuM#t=84s


The fact you can remeber that one move from so long ago suggests they did, and you certainly did. In fact Glock wasn't too happy about it either.

Regardless, Lewis hasn't complained about Rosberg; he simply got on with it and Rosberg's extreme defence did not pay off.

#350 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:05

Certainly very rough from Rosberg, but still I'm okay with letting it go, just. He has certainly picked two of the toughest opponents, could become interesting in future encounters.


NR has been criticised for being a soft touch to get by; maybe this was his reaction to that criticism.