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Rosberg chopping both Hamilton and Alonso


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#351 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:06

With such reaction he can count at most on the image of another Massa :)

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#352 scheivlak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:07

The fact you can remeber that one move from so long ago suggests they did, and you certainly did. In fact Glock wasn't too happy about it either.

Regardless, Lewis hasn't complained about Rosberg; he simply got on with it and Rosberg's extreme defence did not pay off.

:up:

#353 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:09

And rightly so, because this is what happened. Rosberg did nothing wrong.


Hamilton passed Rosberg under braking.

#354 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:11

NR has been criticised for being a soft touch to get by; maybe this was his reaction to that criticism.


That, or the Britney tag

#355 Massa

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:13

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Don't think that's acceptable.



It's a shame. We see clearly that Rosberg put Alonso of the road.

#356 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:17

NR has been criticised for being a soft touch to get by; maybe this was his reaction to that criticism.


Well, it certainly looked like that kind of [over]-reaction. Just that bit too much for comfort... and with comfort I don't mean the stewards but what's going on between the drivers. Rosbergs scraps today certainly weren't of the kind the opponents would later comfortably smile and chat about, at least that's my gut feeling.

#357 jamiegc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:19

I read it but english isn't my mother language and it's hard for me to understand.

So, please, can you explain me what are the circumstances that allow you to force a driver off the track like rosberg did?


Stewards decided that Rosberg was making his 1 allowed move and didn't know Hamilton or Alonso were there.

#358 velgajski1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:20

Glad that no penalties were handed out today. Rosberg calling for Hamilton's penalty was just silly though.

#359 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:23

I just hope it's ok from now on for anybody (including Ham/MS/Web) to push anyone else offtrack
if it's legal for Rosberg it should be for everybody

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#360 Arska

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:26

Hamilton passed Rosberg under braking.


By going off the track completely, something that is not usually deemed within the rules.

#361 radosav

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:27

Stewards decided that Rosberg was making his 1 allowed move and didn't know Hamilton or Alonso were there.

yeah, right. he usualy makes such quick move to the right to cool the tires, wtf

Edited by radosav, 22 April 2012 - 21:27.


#362 Mclaren4ever

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:28

If it´s allowed for everyone from now on, it´s okay.
I just have the feeling that it´s not...

#363 One

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:29

THat was another strange decision. As ling as I could see on TVm the move was certainly 1. Dangerous, 2. Pushed the car out of track, 3 and move twice. Well what I am not a FIA guy...

#364 scheivlak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:29

By going off the track completely, something that is not usually deemed within the rules.

As mentioned earlier, it was almost a carbon copy of Nasr/Gutierrez during one of the GP2 races - that was on exactly the same spot.
Also inquired by the stewards, no penalty given.

#365 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:29

By going off the track completely, something that is not usually deemed within the rules.


A little bit of common sense would be nice.

#366 4MEN

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:30

Stewards decided that Rosberg was making his 1 allowed move and didn't know Hamilton or Alonso were there.


The "didn't know they were there" is a stupid argument. He closed the door because he knew Hamilton was or was going to be there. It's ok the one move rule, but they should leave some room.

#367 Realyn

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:37

The fact you can remeber that one move from so long ago suggests they did, and you certainly did. In fact Glock wasn't too happy about it either.

Regardless, Lewis hasn't complained about Rosberg; he simply got on with it and Rosberg's extreme defence did not pay off.

So just because I remember something everybody has to? Pretty good logic lol. And once again, noone cared about how he pushed Glock off, there was no discusion at all.


#368 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:38

Nico is trying to be the next hard man on the track.

Too bad that they still call him Britney.

#369 MGKrebs

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:40

What they actually said was that neither pursuer was actually beside Rosberg as he moved to the right, which was the racing line.

#370 Arska

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:44

A little bit of common sense would be nice.


Oh, ok. Do tell me how I should have applied common sense in this case.

#371 scheivlak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:46

So just because I remember something everybody has to? Pretty good logic lol. And once again, noone cared about how he pushed Glock off, there was no discusion at all.

No discussion at all?

This is a thread that started right after that Italian GP: http://forums.autosp...w...milton&st=0

Edited by scheivlak, 22 April 2012 - 21:47.


#372 jonpollak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:01

Britney had two wheels off the track running Lewis off...
Then again with Fernando?

I get the tyre thing but it makes for a bad impression on the TV.
Jp

#373 MGKrebs

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:07

"4. For more than half of the distance travelled by Car 8 in moving in a straight line towards the right hand edge of the track, Car 4 remained behind Car 8"

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/76811.html

Maybe Lewis should have gone to the left.

Edited by MGKrebs, 22 April 2012 - 22:08.


#374 MGKrebs

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:13

We expect drivers who aren't competing for the championship to be less aggressive and move out of the way when title contenders approach. Nico is now legitimately competing for the title. He should be assertive. Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, they get praised for defending their position aggressively. Get used to this. Nico has some confidence now and doesn't need to defer to anyone.

#375 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:14

If we still had the pre 2008 cars again, Alonso and Hamilton would have understeered and climbed into the back of Nico.

This has happened too often, they need to make sure in next year´s briefing that guys defending there don´t go to the left edge in the exit of turn 3, they need to make their intentions clear earlier on.

#376 P123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:18

Oh, ok. Do tell me how I should have applied common sense in this case.


I'll help you out- there was another driver involved in Hamilton 'going off track'. And as you are clearly a stickler to the 'not allowed to go off track', you can perhaps comfort yourself with the fact that it was the long way round, put dirt on Hamilton's tyres and Hamilton was still behind once the other car allowed him to rejoin the race track.

#377 Shevek

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:21

The move on Alonso (2nd one) was worse than the one on Hamilton, there he pushed Alonso alongside him a lot longer towards the edge even though he must've seen him there. Arguable that he should've had a penalty there, but not from the one with Hamilton IMO.


Are you sure Alosno was alongside Rosberg?

Posted Image

http://i1189.photobu..._Rosberg1-2.gif

Edited by Shevek, 23 April 2012 - 11:33.


#378 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:25

Are you sure Alosno was alongside Rosberg?

Posted Image


That should have been penalised. Alonso,who is gaining as he had better drive through T3, is not given a chance to be alongside as Rosberg cuts him off and clearly forces him off the track.

#379 Buxbaum

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:29

Dunno. Rosberg did force him to the side but Alonso could have slowed down earlier.

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#380 Dunder

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:32

That should have been penalised. Alonso,who is gaining as he had better drive through T3, is not given a chance to be alongside as Rosberg cuts him off and clearly forces him off the track.


What? If you are not alongside you have the ability to change your line (in this case, go to the left) and could not be deemed as being "forced" anywhere.


#381 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:34

Dunno. Rosberg did force him to the side but Alonso could have slowed down earlier.

if you have to slow down then you've been forced to do something you wouldn't do - that being wrong

#382 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:35

Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, they get praised for defending their position aggressively.

Well, they get penalties for this...

#383 radosav

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:40

Are you sure Alosno was alongside Rosberg?

Posted Image

i think that if you look the footage in real time you will see that rosberg move wasn't so inocent

#384 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:41

What? If you are not alongside you have the ability to change your line (in this case, go to the left) and could not be deemed as being "forced" anywhere.


I'm not sure he could have gone left once his front wing was practically in line with Rosberg's right rear, I think he was pretty stuck where he was in terms of his track position, and Rosberg edged him right, hence he was forced off. I guess the alternative was Alonso getting out of the throttle but at that stage it was never going to happen.

#385 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:42

What? If you are not alongside you have the ability to change your line (in this case, go to the left) and could not be deemed as being "forced" anywhere.

This is true, but I will say in Rosberg's case that he left it til the very last second to move over to defend, which is dangerous. Alonso was committing to the right side and right before he was about to start pulling alongside, Rosberg cuts over. If Alonso is accelerating and on the right of Nico's car, its sketchy to move back over the left, as it risks running into the back of Nico. His other option was to let off, which he shouldn't have to do.

The move was hard and I dont blame Alonso for being a little upset about it, but it wasn't an illegal move or anything. Nothing that deserved a penalty.

I would still like to see the same sort of onboard video of Lewis, though, cuz despite what the stewards are saying, it really did look like he was alongside. Its an important distinction cuz if Lewis was alongside, Nico was in the wrong for pushing somebody off-track and if he wasn't alongside, then Lewis is clearly in the wrong for passing off the track.

#386 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:45

if you have to slow down then you've been forced to do something you wouldn't do - that being wrong


Come on. Not really. Slowing the other car down is the essence of one-on-one racing, otherwise the faster car would always win.

#387 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:45

Defending with a car under your gearbox with a significant speed advantage is as bad as defending when the other guy´s alongside.

#388 911

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:47

What they actually said was that neither pursuer was actually beside Rosberg as he moved to the right, which was the racing line.


Off topic: Is that Peter Revson in your avatar? If so, then awesome!

#389 Nitropower

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:49

Uncomprehensible and a disgrace that Rosberg gets away with no penalty not even a reprimand after getting into the other driver's line and forcing them out of the track not only one but TWICE. These Bahrain stewards must be some representatives of the protestors otherwise I don't understand in which other dimension of reality their decision makes sense. Rosberg, Bernie's new golden boy? ($$$$$$$) Again a disgrace, absolutely hilarious.

#390 muelte

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:50

Ok, so we now have a new 'legal' way of defending: wait till the overtaking car is just a few inches behind your rear wing, and then, BAM!, turn the wheel suddenly to that side, even going to the edge of the track if needed. Don't worry, the other car still wasn't alongside you, so it is perfectly legal... :drunk: :drunk:

As Alonso tweeted, we are going to have some fun battles from now on :cat:

Edited by muelte, 22 April 2012 - 22:51.


#391 sionas

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:54

Unbelievable! He could have been killed, God that was close :eek:

are you out of your mind? Did we watch the same race? there is a direction after monza that you should leave one car lenght at defending your position. Especially the one on Lewis, Nico was almost out of the track.

#392 Darth Sidious

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:55

Are you sure Alosno was alongside Rosberg?

Posted Image


Can't fault Rosberg for that. At least not until we have a CCWS no blocking rule.

I recall a huge shitstorm over Spa 2008 when Kimi was exonerated for running Hamilton off the road because Hamilton wasn't 'far enough' alongside. The crowding rule wasn't enforced then, it still isn't. Consistency in action.

#393 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:57

Ok, so we now have a new 'legal' way of defending: wait till the overtaking car is just a few inches behind your rear wing, and then, BAM!, turn the wheel suddenly to that side, even going to the edge of the track if needed. Don't worry, the other car still wasn't alongside you, so it is perfectly legal... :drunk: :drunk:

As Alonso tweeted, we are going to have some fun battles from now on :cat:


Fun battles haha. I loved how the commentators dident say a bad word aginst Rosberg today. If that was Schumacher there would of been hell on!

#394 Mila

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:57

regardless of the letter of the law, that was some cynical stuff from NR.

#395 Markn93

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:58

are you out of your mind? Did we watch the same race? there is a direction after monza that you should leave one car lenght at defending your position. Especially the one on Lewis, Nico was almost out of the track.


I don't understand. I agree with what you say and I don't see how I contradicted it, I was referring to the rearwards camera angle showing Lewis very, very close to the wall jutting out to where Rosberg pushed him off.

#396 sionas

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:59

lol, I love the armchair stewards that post here. Not one of them provided any evidence to support their claims that HAM or ALO were alongside.

They both had the option of using the other pedal at their feet if they felt they were running out of room.

if you imply the brakes, then you prove a point that everybody here tries to make. Both Lewis and Alonso were blocked and forced off

#397 BoozeBaron

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:59

I'm a big Nico fan - all the way back to GP2 days and was happy to see him win last week.... but this "new Nico" - one who was behind the 8-ball and scrambling - was just so out of character.... Win go to his head? I dunno... As someone tweeted - he'll have hell to pay in the future - Can NOT believe he didn't get penalised :( and I'm a fan!!


#398 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:02

are you out of your mind? Did we watch the same race? there is a direction after monza that you should leave one car lenght at defending your position. Especially the one on Lewis, Nico was almost out of the track.

That directive applies to the 2nd move when a driver goes back over the racing line.

Telling drivers they have to leave a gap when defending to the inside would essentially be telling them you cant actually defend the inside completely, which would be asinine. What Rosberg did was legal, but was definitely an extreme move and its not recommended that you make your 'defensive maneuver' so late. Typically, you pull to the inside before the other car gets to you, so they know that avenue is blocked off and to find another way around.

#399 GeorgeCartwright

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:08

Amongst all the DRS overtakes it was genuinely refreshing to see some ragged-edge racing. Neither Hamilton or Alonso were in a position that was forced onto them by Rosberg, it just happened to be the case that he was as committed to go for the inside line as they were, no status earns you 'right of way' amongst the other drives. The way some people are reacting to this makes it sound like they're petitioning to put a ban on defensive driving like Indycar used to have.

Also, with regards to choices and the comparison to the Schumacher-Barrichello incident, Schumacher offered Rubens the choice of stay behind me or risk a crash by passing me. Rosberg offered: stay behind me or run outside the track limits. That seems a critical difference.

Edited by GeorgeCartwright, 22 April 2012 - 23:11.


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#400 RealRacing

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:09

This is true, but I will say in Rosberg's case that he left it til the very last second to move over to defend, which is dangerous. Alonso was committing to the right side and right before he was about to start pulling alongside, Rosberg cuts over. If Alonso is accelerating and on the right of Nico's car, its sketchy to move back over the left, as it risks running into the back of Nico. His other option was to let off, which he shouldn't have to do.

The move was hard and I dont blame Alonso for being a little upset about it, but it wasn't an illegal move or anything. Nothing that deserved a penalty.

I would still like to see the same sort of onboard video of Lewis, though, cuz despite what the stewards are saying, it really did look like he was alongside. Its an important distinction cuz if Lewis was alongside, Nico was in the wrong for pushing somebody off-track and if he wasn't alongside, then Lewis is clearly in the wrong for passing off the track.


This. At the end of the day, defensive driving is using your right to a line to avoid a supposedly faster car to pass. It would not make sense to even have car racing if you had to allow a faster car to pass you just because it's faster. What Alonso whined about was not applicable in this case as the rule says you should leave enough room when coming back to the racing line after a defensive move. This was NR's defensive move. Aggressive? Yes. On the edge? Yes. Illegal? Not strictly. The previous video didn't show it well, but on this one you see that Alonso was not alongside, there was no overlap. Granted, maybe the ultimate move by Nico happened a bit late, forcing ALonso to brake and avoiding the overlap, but hey, these things are happening in fractions of a second and in a space of centimeters. Also, the car behind is the one that can actually see better what is happening and ultimately in a better position to avoid contact. The "burden of overtaking" is always on the trailing car.