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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#451 fieraku

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:27

I have to agree with you here....


I fear that BE and the FIA will introduce competition yellows soon enough....

I'll take those anyday as long as they all go for it(balls2theWall) afterwards instead of waiting for whose tires will fall first,desperate times.

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#452 valachus

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:29

Hereby, the graph below is very interesting. What happens if you ignore tire management and just go berserk for the fastest times possible, 100% of the car's limit, without bothering about tires? Let me point out Jean-Eric Vergne.
Posted Image
Jean-Eric Vergne, lap times

It is interesting because immediately after his final stop, Vergne decided to go flat-out. His lap time was 1.37.058, which was the 2nd fastest of that lap (0.1s slower than Vettel), and the 4th fastest overall. Yet, due to this, by the end of the race, by the last lap, his pace dropped +5.3 seconds and despite having no traffic, on the last three laps he was the slowest in the entire field, even slower than the HRTs, Virgins, etc., (fact). So this, the inability to push at 100% or else your tires are gone, I think this is what most drivers fear most at this time. One lap you're 0.1 seconds slower than Vettel, and then one lap you're slower than the HRT.

Perhaps, if Pirelli could increase the peak-effectiveness of the tire by just a 'little-bit' more perhaps from 1 lap to 5-6 laps, it would be perfect.

I quoted your post and this excellent graph in another thread - and I do it again: there is a tiny mistake there - Vergne's BEST lap of the weekend was his 1m35s in Q3. To achieve it, he probably had fuel for 3 laps or so. As he did at in the last 3 laps of the race. However, having tyres 13 laps old, his times were 5 to 7 seconds SLOWER than his quali run.

Actually, it's the FIA that have totally ruined F1. Pirelli were asked to produce these tyres by the FIA. The FIA have acknowledged that there is an issue with processional racing due to the design aspects of modern F1 cars, but their response to that has been to introduce a number of gimicks to try to artificially alter the situation rather than bringing in different regulations that would resolve the problem.

I don't think anyone specifically asked Pirelli for tyres that lost 7 seconds of pace over a 15-lap stint. If there was, please indicate him so that I can duly burn his effigy during the next GP :lol:

#453 fieraku

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:35

It has happened more often than not actually. From an article by Paul Kimmage in The Sunday Times from 2006:


The four give the same reply: the championship will basically be decided by the team with the best tyres.


Best tires,car,driver,strategy,luck. "BEST" :wave: Pirelli are far from it. Tires were made to fit the car&driver just like the seat,brakes,setup etc.
May the BEST win....................not whomever lucks into the Pirelli lotto.

#454 peroa

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:39

That statement has been proven false. That's not idiotic, that's proving a statement wrong using empirical evidence.

Well, it is if you get the point people are trying to make in this thread, like comparing apples and oranges.

#455 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:40

My interest in the sport is genuinely waning because of this. Hamilton is fighting for the championship, I should be electrified by it but i'm just not. I barely even get nervous any more at race starts - I know the race will proceed to be a tyre conservation exercise which kind of undermines almost everything for me. I can appreciate the wheel to wheel race craft that happens, but I know other than that they're not pushing each other, they're just driving to the lap time their car and tyre allows them.

#456 jamiegc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:45

Tires that wear down quickly like the current Pirellis - Great.
Tires that also has an very narrow operating window like the current Pirellis - Not great.

I'm no expert at this and I certainly don't know if it would be possible to combine agressively wearing tires with a bigger operating window. Perhaps it's really hard, I have no idea. But the situation right now is not fair. There is a limit to everything, the fact that no team seem to understand the tires somewhat from race to race is very weird.

In my opinion, the tires simply aren't good enough for being a spec tire. And I write this the day after two of my three favorite drivers finished 1st and 2nd..


Teams were given testing in a vast range of temperatures & conditions pre-season and set their cars up accordingly. Now that we re back in Europe we have conditions that are generally more stable than in the flyways with races being run in monsoon season and later in the afternoon.

The teams will get a handle on the tyres quickly same as in 2011.

#457 drunkenmaster

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:55

Dammit, I hate all this tyre nursing crap. I wanna see drivers racing on the edge all the race long, and not cruising around to preserve stupid tyres.

Yes, they beefed up the show with it. But that's exactly what it is now: A show, or a lottery, and not a sport anymore.

For Pirelli itself it's of course a very clever move: Never before was there more talk about the tyres. :rolleyes:

Edited by drunkenmaster, 23 April 2012 - 13:57.


#458 pUs

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:06

Teams were given testing in a vast range of temperatures & conditions pre-season and set their cars up accordingly. Now that we re back in Europe we have conditions that are generally more stable than in the flyways with races being run in monsoon season and later in the afternoon.

The teams will get a handle on the tyres quickly same as in 2011.


Perhaps they will, I certainly hope so. :up:

#459 schubacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:09

I think that it is a combination of all of these gimmicks that has finally reached a tipping point.

Drivers now dont go flat out.

A particular driver will reel in the driver ahead of him.

The trailing driver will use DRS and KERS to pass the defending driver, who now CANNOT DEFEND like the old days.

It is exciting the first couple of times you see it. After you realize what is really going on..... not so much so....

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#460 swiniodzik

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 14:21

Best tires,car,driver,strategy,luck. "BEST" :wave: Pirelli are far from it. Tires were made to fit the car&driver just like the seat,brakes,setup etc.
May the BEST win....................not whomever lucks into the Pirelli lotto.


I see where you're trying to come from but my point was that some of the arguments used in here to bash Pirelli are all but constructive. Pirelli have ruined the sport. They have made it all about the tyres. They have made a lottery out of it. Yeah right. Tell me, how is lucking into the Pirellis operating window that much different to lucking into a contract with the better tyre supplier? During a tyre war you could come up with a fast car only to find out that your supplier, who you signed a contract with three years ago, now made an inferior tyre.

As I said, if drivers have to manage the tyres from lap one of the race or even from qualifying without any choice whether they'd like to push or not, that's not right and improvements are needed. But let's not knee-jerk with calls for bringing back hard like a rock tyres or, worse, a tyre war.

I'd like to hope that the racing can be improved by working on these current tyres to allow drivers to push more if they want. Try to find more of a happy middle ground between not degrading tyres and ones that can't be pushed to the limit. Give drivers a real choice: if some want to push at or close to the limit at the cost of stopping more, allow them to do it, if some want to manage the tyres and stop less, give them this possibilty. I don't know whether the current tyres can be fine-tuned to reach that situation of a real choice or they would have to be completely changed and re-designed, but that's the kind of feedback Pirelli should be receiving from us, not insults and made up memories.

#461 Hermanator

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:18

I agree with most of the concerns here. I find it pretty sad to realize that virtually nobody in the field is pushing at 100% during the race. An epic race like Schumacher did at the 1998 Hungarian GP would be inconceivable this year. I am also somewhat pessimistic about the course of F1 on the long term. In the end, F1 is all about money. And while the hardcore "pure" F1 enthusiasts that are assembled on this website are critical of the current state of F1, I estimate that the large majority of F1 viewers just love the fact that F1 has become so unpredictable. So I fear that over time, the balance between "pure-sport" and show will shift more towards show.

The comments of Schumacher did leave me with one question, though. If it is truly so that everybody in the field is lapping at a pre-determined pace, than how come that some drivers are still clearly faster than their teammates? For instance, Alonso VS Massa, or Vettel VS Webber. Is that then solely due to a better and smoother driving style?

#462 rolf123

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:20

Refuelling only sucked because it was used to pass in the pits, because the aero was so terrible.

Refuelling with KERS and DRS would actually be pretty good, so long as fuel was declared at the beginning of the race and you could qualify on low fuel.

#463 rolf123

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:21

The comments of Schumacher did leave me with one question, though. If it is truly so that everybody in the field is lapping at a pre-determined pace, than how come that some drivers are still clearly faster than their teammates? For instance, Alonso VS Massa, or Vettel VS Webber. Is that then solely due to a better and smoother driving style?


I think so. Webber and Massa eat more tyres relative to their teammates.

#464 Kvothe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:26

Haha, top post - encapsulates everything wrong with this era of the sport.


Thanks, I reckon we should start a twitter movement. #harderpirellis #pirellipancakes

Edited by Kvothe, 23 April 2012 - 15:26.


#465 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:33

The comments of Schumacher did leave me with one question, though. If it is truly so that everybody in the field is lapping at a pre-determined pace, than how come that some drivers are still clearly faster than their teammates? For instance, Alonso VS Massa, or Vettel VS Webber. Is that then solely due to a better and smoother driving style?

I think predetermined pace is same for both , just one of them can't keep up.

Yeah, I am sure nobody wanted from Perelli to design tires that lose 5-7sec for 12-15 lap hard driving. 1,5-2 seconds is something else. Bridgestone were losing less than 1 sec I think. And nobody wanted tire puzzle. Nobody wanted tire window of 5-10 degree.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 15:44.


#466 JV97

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:39

We don't need refuelling. It was just as false imo.

We don't need a tyre war. Never sure whether it was the car/driver or tyres that were making the difference.

We just need Pirelli to tweak things.

We have Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel, Alonso....some of the best racers/chargers in recent years. Yet we're faced with a situation where they follow each other home because after 3 - 5 laps of trying, the tyres won't let them get close enough. Yes that's also down to turbulent air as well but the point stands.

Pirelli say how they were told to replicate Canada 2010. Well that was great yes but unless I'm mistaken, the race lap times were reasonable compared to the pole time. Unlike now of course.

And I really wish some of you could handle this debate a bit more maturely instead of going on about whining or 'it's only because your team isn't winning'.

#467 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:46

Good thing is, with tires like this MS can drive until he reach 50. And maybe after that. :rotfl:

#468 spacekid

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:55

I'm a little bit torn on this one. On the one hand, I think it's fairly clear that the current tyre situation is providing some great racing to watch. However, it cannot be right that drivers are being constantly told in every race to "look after the tyres". In essence, being told to slow down. As MS says, driving to a delta is not real racing, and that's the bottom line for me.

I think the situation needs looking at.


This is the thing though Coops, I'm not even convinced we are watching great racing. What if what we're really seeing is drivers driving to their delta shuffling around in order depending on what their computer simulation has told them to do? I hope it isn't at that stage...

By the way Kvothe if you read this, great post you made before. Agree 100%.

#469 BeanTheGene

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:41

This is what happens if you drive at 100% all the time.

Posted Image
Vergne vs Alonso.

Despite having tires that are 3 laps newer, by pushing harder at 100% (he was trying to catch Kobayashi for some reason), his lap-times kept going slower and slower. At his first lap he was 0.1s slower than Vettel (4th fastest lap overall in the entire race), but by the end he was slowest, (even slower than the HRT). Whereas Alonso is not-pushing 100% and managing his tires, so his lap-times improve and are slightly faster in fact, as the fuel burns off and car becomes lighter.

Waddayado?


Lets not manipulate things here though.... Verne was on softs, Alonso was on Mediums. Verne turned out 13 straight laps which had about 1 second difference in time. I heard many quotes over the weekend that the softs wouldn't last more than 8 laps or so. I'd say that's pretty good for someone 'pushing 100%' as you say on the softer of the two tire compounds. His tire strategy was a bit wrong here though, as he reached the cliff just a couple laps before the end. But Verne's tires absolutely should go away before Alonso's... or else what's the point of having tire compound differences?

Also, people get upset that race times are so far off qualifying times. Well Verne's time on lap 43 was 1:37:058. His Q1 time was 1:35:014. With 14 laps left and compensating for fuel, I'd say that's just about right.

#470 chhatra

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:45

Maybe bringing back a bigger disparity between compounds.

Firstly in Q3 give each driver an extra set of soft tyres which they can use to QUALIFY on, stop them not going out. On that particular note I applaud Ricciardo for going out and putting ina great performance knowing he would waste a set of tyres and wouldn't have a chance at pole.

Secondly the option should be consistently faster by around 1 second but should last max 15 laps. The prime should be 1 sec slower but should last 25 laps. If they can manage the drop off then the teams can use different tyres at different points.

The situation you have now is regardless of which type of tyre you have or however much you try and nurse them, they degrade and go away completely.

#471 schubacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:51

You remember that time when Brawn asked Schumacher to turn in around 15 qualifying laps in a race in order to make their strategy work?


Ahhhhhhh, the good days.....

We have FA, SV, LH, KR, MS, and more...... Perhaps the deepest field ever in F1....... And they are all pacing themselves as to not destroy tyres.....


Let these geniuses race balls out. Please.

#472 alframsey

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:54

I have said a fair amount of times I'm not a fan, I just find it is completely 'anti-Formula1' that you can get a better race result by driving slower or slowing the overall pace of the car down.

#473 gricey1981

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 16:55

I think they just need to make the tires last a little longer.

or 10 laps flat out vs 15 laps not so flat out kinda thing.

Its probably much easier said than done though.

I think its fair to say that f1 has never been so tire limited before though

#474 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 17:18

Lets not manipulate things here though.... Verne was on softs, Alonso was on Mediums. Verne turned out 13 straight laps which had about 1 second difference in time. I heard many quotes over the weekend that the softs wouldn't last more than 8 laps or so. I'd say that's pretty good for someone 'pushing 100%' as you say on the softer of the two tire compounds. His tire strategy was a bit wrong here though, as he reached the cliff just a couple laps before the end. But Verne's tires absolutely should go away before Alonso's... or else what's the point of having tire compound differences?

Also, people get upset that race times are so far off qualifying times. Well Verne's time on lap 43 was 1:37:058. His Q1 time was 1:35:014. With 14 laps left and compensating for fuel, I'd say that's just about right.


But the track was also more rubbered in, though. And if we think about the quali pace of the Toro Rosso.

#475 iakhtar

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:11

Schumacher is spot on, the other drivers need to speak up also.

At least this is a great thread for spotting posters who haven't got a clue, it's amazing.

#476 Coops3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:17

This is the thing though Coops, I'm not even convinced we are watching great racing. What if what we're really seeing is drivers driving to their delta shuffling around in order depending on what their computer simulation has told them to do? I hope it isn't at that stage...

By the way Kvothe if you read this, great post you made before. Agree 100%.

It's certainly a worrying thought.

#477 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:26

It's certainly a worrying thought.

Very worrying indeed, the pitwall are plugged into supercomputers running simulations when really it would be nice to just see drivers drive and use instinct and experience

#478 R Soul

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:18

I agree that these tyres are terrible. It's true that drivers have always had to manage their tyres, to some extent, but as others have pointed out, drivers could push hard for a reasonable number of laps.

Some people have mentioned that many of us didn't like the 2010 tyres being so durable, and that in the past, tyres wore out and we didn't complain. That's true, but that's because the manufacturers were doing their best. And that's the key in my opinion. Pirelli have been told to do a bad job, and I doubt that comes naturally to people who've spent their careers competing in the tyre industry.

I'd like to see what would happen with sensible tyres, but with the drivers having complete freedom of choice over which ones to use. He could have softs at the front and hards at the rear to sort out understeer, and he could change the combination during the race if he wanted to. However I get the impression it would be a very rare thing because the teams would not want to deal with too many unknowns.

#479 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:54

When Pirelli introduced 2012 tires they say that this new tires are more durable? I didn't see that, I think last year tires were more durable.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 20:08.


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#480 fed up

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:24

Rosberg & particulary Michael's comments are not good publicity for Pirelli. Bridgestone had the right idea - they didn't want to associate their brand with high degradation and/or poor performance. Pirelli under the stewardship of Hembery appear clueless - the damage to the brand will be long lasting.

F1 chose to race in Bhrain - FOM chose to ignore FI and sabbotage live timing, and Pirelli produce bubble gum tyres.

What you see is not necessarily what you see

:cat:

#481 Jake360

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:27

When Pirelli introduced 2012 tires they say that this new tires are more durable? I didn't see that, I think last year tires were more durable.


They said they'd be less durable. I think the Hards are the same (?) but each other compound is significantly softer.

#482 bauss

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:27

copying some posts from the comment section of James Allen's website

Schumacher is absolutely correct. Please consider this:

The drivers in F1 are the best in the world. But even within that elite, there is another level: the last little bit. Drivers like Gilles Villeneuve, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso. They can produce an extra bit which the others cannot unlock, lap after lap, for an hour and a half. It is very different from one qualifying lap like Trulli (the jury’s still out on Rosberg.)

What are the great races we remember in F1? Interlagos 1994, Schumacher v Senna; Suzuka 2000, Schumacher v Hakkinen; Imola 2006, Schumacher v Alonso (and lots of other titanic battles that year): bang, bang, bang. Lap after lap on the limit. The best of the best at the pinnacle of their sport. In each of these battles, the team-mates couldn’t keep up; the consistent pace was too much.

It is that extra bit that distinguishes the greatest ever from the mere great and these Pirelli tyres do not allow the drivers to access it. Paul Hembery said Schumacher was slower in quail simulations than Rosberg because he was destroying his tyres before the lap was up. So these ‘race’ tyres can’t even hold up for one qualifying lap, when the driver should be able to push to the limit and not consider anything else. They are worse than the special qualifying tyres we used to have.

What is the point of hiring Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen, if all you need is a decent GP2 driver who can save his tyres?

What you want are tyres that give teams and drivers the choice; drive flat out for say 15 laps, or conservatively for 22, saving a pit stop. This is what Pirelli delivered last season and it worked.

The spectacle of the world’s greatest drivers not even able to drive one lap on the limit over the full length of a Grand Prix is a nonsense.

This is not Formula One.



Very funny. I tweeted Paul Hembery on Friday about this exact topic. Saying shouldn’t the engineering of the car be the key determinant of race performance ie. how outright quick the aero etc is, not whether the car happens to be lucky enough to fit with the Pirelli tyre’s many idiosyncracies. Suffice to say, Paul shot me down and said I was ‘confused’, wrong, self-contradicting, etc. (I don’t think I was being impolite, just a question).

Now Michael Schumacher is saying that he can’t drive to the limit of the car’s capabilities because of the tyres … does that not mean the car’s total engineering package is not the key determinant of car pace, but rather the tyres are; that the engineering cannot and is not being exploited fully. That, at the limit, the Sauber can travel around corner X at Y kph, but the Merc could do it at 1.05Y kph, but due to the Pirellis they are both bound to doing it at a maximum of 0.8Y kph. That the Pirellis are a binding constraint on the skills of the car, and of the drivers.

That cannot be right for outright racing. The WDC must be about the fastest driver/car package on the grid, it CANNOT be about the best tyre-managing driver and the most pirelli-compatible car. It just cannot.

And as for the idea that more resilient tyres would lead to processional races, how fundamentally wrong would it actually be if the hardest charging driver in the fastest car led that procession? It is what the spirit of F1 is all about. It certainly doesn’t go against the spirit of F1. And when was the last time you saw a driver chasing down the race leader like a demon, hand over fist, without one being on old rubber and the other being on new? The chasing driver not being worried that if he pushes too hard he’ll fall off the cliff? The only way that happens these days is if there is a tyre wear differential.

It is only the quest for drama for the masses that allows Pirelli to provide such finicky, volatile tyres and force the fastest drivers to drive as shadows of themselves whilst allowing other [dare I say it, slower] drivers to swagger around the paddock. I just think it is conceptually wrong.


:lol: :lol:

Schumacher is 100% correct. The tires Pirelli have provided are not fit for purpose. Racing at the car or drivers limit is not attainable anymore, without the tires falling off a cliff and your race strategy shot to pieces. There is an acknowledgement the tires provide a better spectacle, but as a genuine racing series, the racing is fake, as no real racing takes place, except for a 90 minute tire management exercise.


I am also growing tired of the tires dominating the races. Though I like the shake-up in the order I am always left feeling like it is a bit forced. Pitting on lap 7-10 of a 57 lap race for new tires seems excessive.Perhaps they should find a better middle ground between the Bridgestone days and what we have now.


I concur with Schumacher.

His analogy is when a driver has a porche car, one is made to drive on a highway with 80mph speed limit, than driving in autobahn without a speed limit. Which drive would exhibit the full potential of that porche car?
On the other hand, Pirelli is doing just what

FOM is asking them to do. Someone has to find a middle path which doesn’t keep the tyre life long, but still allow drivers to push to the limit before the tyres fall off.

Just look at kimi on his last stint in Bahrain, he wasn’t able to push vettel, simply because he had to conserve his tyres to finish the race.

Shumi should be applauded for standing up and bringing this issue to the forefront.


and so on

#483 jesee

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:38

The driver of these tires didn't obey the pirelli rule.....never extract the maximum, always say "nurse, nurse , nurse". I think they could be first generation pirellis :smoking:

Posted Image



#484 iotar

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:30


http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17816565

It was also interesting to hear Mercedes' Michael Schumacher complain about the Pirelli tyres.

He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.

When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.

They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.

It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.

Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier.


#485 RealRacing

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:36

Petition

#486 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:49

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17816565

It was also interesting to hear Mercedes' Michael Schumacher complain about the Pirelli tyres.

He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.

When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.

They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.

It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.

Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier.


That would be great if Mercedes were the only team with problems.
Never mind that, that would be great if there was ONE team without huge issues on Pirelli. All the teams performance this year was up and down by a random Pirelli factor.

China....Nico 2 stopper, perfect tyre management from Mercedes, Kimi...terrible tyre management, goes over the cliff and ends up way behind.
Bahrain....Merces nowhere, Lotus almost the fastest package.

1 week time, no updates on the cars. This is circus, not F1


#487 scheivlak

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:50

1 week time, no updates on the cars.

Lotus had significant updates http://plus.autospor...on-its-promise/

#488 MidKnight

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:00

Actually, it's the FIA that have totally ruined F1. Pirelli were asked to produce these tyres by the FIA. The FIA have acknowledged that there is an issue with processional racing due to the design aspects of modern F1 cars, but their response to that has been to introduce a number of gimicks to try to artificially alter the situation rather than bringing in different regulations that would resolve the problem.


Actually, the problem rests squarely with the fans and the teams. It's the fans who screamed about the so called processional racing and it is the teams via the various working groups that invented DRS, and the fans who convinced us all that a tire war is bad for the sport.

And that's just it - it's just one complaint after another. First the tire war was bad...then it was the car being too aero-depandant yet the teams don't want to let go of aero so DRS was invented. Heck even when the reduced diffuser was introduced they teams found loopholes and got more aero back, a team with a representative of the TWG that suggested less and cleaner air at the back of the car then goes and exploits the very rule he was supposed to figure out! Do you realize the the year of the dominant Brawn GP car was supposed to be the beginning of a new era of less aero dependent cars? And what did the engine manufacturers do before engine's were essentially frozen? Start and insane spending war to get another 2k RPM out of the engine...

...so now the FIA have given the masses what they wanted because the teams refuse to let go of aero and it's suddenly FOM and the FIA that is the problem. Real problem is the fans who don't understand how F1 works and don't understand that the real problem lies with the teams who refuse to let go of down force. FIA wanted a new engine formula in 2013 but we have one in 2014 because yet again it was the teams complaining...the teams who can't agree on anything...where is the rosy days of FOTA? Down the drain. Start blaming the right people. FIA is doing their job.

#489 scheivlak

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:19

Actually, the problem rests squarely with the fans and the teams. It's the fans who screamed about the so called processional racing and it is the teams via the various working groups that invented DRS, and the fans who convinced us all that a tire war is bad for the sport.

And that's just it - it's just one complaint after another. First the tire war was bad...then it was the car being too aero-depandant yet the teams don't want to let go of aero so DRS was invented. Heck even when the reduced diffuser was introduced they teams found loopholes and got more aero back, a team with a representative of the TWG that suggested less and cleaner air at the back of the car then goes and exploits the very rule he was supposed to figure out! Do you realize the the year of the dominant Brawn GP car was supposed to be the beginning of a new era of less aero dependent cars? And what did the engine manufacturers do before engine's were essentially frozen? Start and insane spending war to get another 2k RPM out of the engine...

...so now the FIA have given the masses what they wanted because the teams refuse to let go of aero and it's suddenly FOM and the FIA that is the problem. Real problem is the fans who don't understand how F1 works and don't understand that the real problem lies with the teams who refuse to let go of down force. FIA wanted a new engine formula in 2013 but we have one in 2014 because yet again it was the teams complaining...the teams who can't agree on anything...where is the rosy days of FOTA? Down the drain. Start blaming the right people. FIA is doing their job.


:up:

I'm still amazed at that -I think- 2005 (or 2006?) poll on this forum showed that a majority wanted to get rid of the tyre war and preferred a single supplier.
OK, we got Bridgestone. And almost everybody on this forum complained pretty soon about the boring races we got as a result of those indestructable tyres. Until there was a 2010 Canadian GP where everybody had a different tyre strategy and it turned out to be a great race. That was the way! And Pirelli promised to give us more GPs like that.
They did. And now everybody's complaining again because we got what we've asked.

I'm not a 100% fan of what I'm seeing. I don't like view of all those marbles and I rather see tyres just a bit more durable.
And apart from the tyre issue, I don't like the fact that F1 cars in general seem to get uglier every year.

But shouting that Pirelli or the FIA or whoelse are about to kill F1 - c'mon. A lot of you have asked for this.
And though it might be even better, it's not that bad.
I, for one, have enjoyed every race in 2012 so far.



#490 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:25

:up:

I'm still amazed at that -I think- 2005 (or 2006?) poll on this forum showed that a majority wanted to get rid of the tyre war and preferred a single supplier.
OK, we got Bridgestone. And almost everybody on this forum complained pretty soon about the boring races we got as a result of those indestructable tyres. Until there was a 2010 Canadian GP where everybody had a different tyre strategy and it turned out to be a great race. That was the way! And Pirelli promised to give us more GPs like that.
They did. And now everybody's complaining again because we got what we've asked.

I'm not a 100% fan of what I'm seeing. I don't like view of all those marbles and I rather see tyres just a bit more durable.
And apart from the tyre issue, I don't like the fact that F1 cars in general seem to get uglier every year.

But shouting that Pirelli or the FIA or whoelse are about to kill F1 - c'mon. A lot of you have asked for this.
And though it might be even better, it's not that bad.
I, for one, have enjoyed every race in 2012 so far.


No one ever asked for drivers to cruise around to a lap delta. It's a complete absurdity and it undermines everything.


#491 scheivlak

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:34

No one ever asked for drivers to cruise around to a lap delta. It's a complete absurdity and it undermines everything.

Well, don't fool yourself. No decent F1 driver "cruises around" to a lap delta.
I've seen tougher fights this year than in all those Bridgestone years together when the tyres were almost indestructable.

#492 fieraku

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:38

Schumacher is absolutely correct. Please consider this:

The drivers in F1 are the best in the world. But even within that elite, there is another level: the last little bit. Drivers like Gilles Villeneuve, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso. They can produce an extra bit which the others cannot unlock, lap after lap, for an hour and a half. It is very different from one qualifying lap like Trulli (the jury’s still out on Rosberg.)

What are the great races we remember in F1? Interlagos 1994, Schumacher v Senna; Suzuka 2000, Schumacher v Hakkinen; Imola 2006, Schumacher v Alonso (and lots of other titanic battles that year): bang, bang, bang. Lap after lap on the limit. The best of the best at the pinnacle of their sport. In each of these battles, the team-mates couldn’t keep up; the consistent pace was too much.

It is that extra bit that distinguishes the greatest ever from the mere great and these Pirelli tyres do not allow the drivers to access it. Paul Hembery said Schumacher was slower in quail simulations than Rosberg because he was destroying his tyres before the lap was up. So these ‘race’ tyres can’t even hold up for one qualifying lap, when the driver should be able to push to the limit and not consider anything else. They are worse than the special qualifying tyres we used to have.

What is the point of hiring Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen, if all you need is a decent GP2 driver who can save his tyres?

What you want are tyres that give teams and drivers the choice; drive flat out for say 15 laps, or conservatively for 22, saving a pit stop. This is what Pirelli delivered last season and it worked.

The spectacle of the world’s greatest drivers not even able to drive one lap on the limit over the full length of a Grand Prix is a nonsense.

This is not Formula One.


Amen,I've been preaching this for the past year and now the big dogs are on board.Yes we need Formula One back,the real one.

#493 sharo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:39

I'm not a 100% fan of what I'm seeing. I don't like view of all those marbles and I rather see tyres just a bit more durable.
And apart from the tyre issue, I don't like the fact that F1 cars in general seem to get uglier every year.

See, you said it. It's not that we want radical changes. Just a chance to compete on merit.

The problem is FIA decisions always seem to swing from one extremity to the other while everything good in this world is based on balance and harmony. They introduce more than one change at a time and the compound result is overdosage. At the same time no one there thinks about scraping rules and conditions which are obsolete due to the new changes.

#494 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:40

Well, don't fool yourself. No decent F1 driver "cruises around" to a lap delta.
I've seen tougher fights this year than in all those Bridgestone years together when the tyres were almost indestructable.


Yes wheel to wheel they fight for position, but in clean air they're driving to a lap delta. I along with others have said this for a long time and now Schumacher has come out and said the exact same thing. Nothing really more I can say than that to convince people that this is wrong.

#495 scheivlak

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:55

Yes wheel to wheel they fight for position, but in clean air they're driving to a lap delta.

Which should be faster than the pace they had during the fight, otherwise they would be having to fight again. So not really cruising.

Meanwhile I found some poll results
A 2005 poll where 60% voted for a single supplier http://forums.autosp...w...237&hl=tyre
A 2006 poll where almost 72% was glad about the end of the tyre war http://forums.autosp...w...018&hl=tyre
And a 2008 one where 60% were against a single supplier (introduced by then) http://forums.autosp...w...044&hl=tyre

Maybe the common thing is that we're never satisfied with what we have  ;)



#496 MidKnight

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:58

Yes wheel to wheel they fight for position, but in clean air they're driving to a lap delta. I along with others have said this for a long time and now Schumacher has come out and said the exact same thing. Nothing really more I can say than that to convince people that this is wrong.


The sky is always falling though isn't it...Schumacher is making these claims after not being able to push in very high temperature on a very abrasive track. This thread reminds me of the various threads that pop up after Monaco or Hungary proclaiming that F1 is too boring. Tires were and issue because of the circumstance and as much as I respect Schumacher he is just whinging because back in the day he could take his dominant Ferrari and start from the back and get on the podium...mostly by passing in the pits...so now he can't do that any more and actually has to pass on track and he is whining...burn up your tires passing everyone and retire with a puncture then complain...its' the same for everyone...

#497 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 23:13

The sky is always falling though isn't it...Schumacher is making these claims after not being able to push in very high temperature on a very abrasive track. This thread reminds me of the various threads that pop up after Monaco or Hungary proclaiming that F1 is too boring. Tires were and issue because of the circumstance and as much as I respect Schumacher he is just whinging because back in the day he could take his dominant Ferrari and start from the back and get on the podium...mostly by passing in the pits...so now he can't do that any more and actually has to pass on track and he is whining...burn up your tires passing everyone and retire with a puncture then complain...its' the same for everyone...

you didn't understand anything

#498 jj2728

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 00:06

Amen,I've been preaching this for the past year and now the big dogs are on board.Yes we need Formula One back,the real one.


Ok, so what is the real Formula One?

#499 jj2728

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 00:07

you didn't understand anything


Ok, so tell us what you understand. Clarify your perspectives for us.

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#500 iakhtar

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 00:30

Ok, so tell us what you understand. Clarify your perspectives for us.


Maybe you should read through the thread or watch some current F1, it aint that hard to figure out.