Jump to content


Photo

Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


  • Please log in to reply
1346 replies to this topic

#501 Birelman

Birelman
  • Member

  • 2,537 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:11

Nobody is talking about refuelling here, you got the wrong thread, this is just about the tyres. I don't want to see refuelling back.



Sorry but this is wrong, look at the results of the last 4 races and tell me which team has the best car/driver package. The results alone tell us all we need to know about what effect the tyres are having on performance.

Your argument seems to be that the tyres are just something that teams need to work with and the best teams have figured out how to do it better, but this is clearly flawed because it changes from race to race. Last race the Mercedes were the team to beat, they took pole and won the race with the RBR left floundering. This week it was exactly the opposite.

That tells us that there is no skill in getting these tyres to work, some teams have not figured it out. All that is happening that depending on the track and the weather conditions come raceday the tyres might work for you or they might not. Why are we having drivers admitting to being surprised that they finished 2nd when it has been a dry race and very few retirements? Surprised? This is F1, nobody should be surprised by finding out they have a quick car come raceday.

I think you agree with most points, certainly your other posts seem to suggest that, so I don't really understand why you are still defending the tyres, especially when you admit they are a gimmick.

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's, back when they were nothing more than fag packets with engines. This is not some kind of romantic dreaming of the good old days though, I cannot remember ever a Formula One season where the tyres were the most important part of the package - it has never happened. Tyres should not be deciding the result of a race, they honestly shouldn't. Technical ability and driver skill should always decide the result of a race. Tyres should be managed and those who manage them better will take advantage, that is fair enough. But this is not about managing tyres at all, this is about the tyres deliberately slowing the cars down and stopping racing from happening.

I am firmly against a spec series, it just isn't F1. But I honestly am beginning to think that a spec series is going to be the only way to save this sport. Some people cannot see this now, and that is fair enough. But if we carry on down this path then this season is going to be remembered as the season when F1 lost the plot big time. Seriously having to resort to stupid gimmicks like DRS and tyres that are designed to turn a race into a lottery is nothing more than a tool to bring in more casual viewers. The simple fact is, and there examples everywhere, whenever a sport or event changes things to try to become more popular they alienate the real fans, the ones who have supported it all along.

I don't think our opinions are that far appart, I think we may be misunderstanding each other a bit.

I said the best package USSUALLY is ahead, and that's true. We've had a pretty small sample so far with a wet race i between, so, can't really judge so much. However, I am not at all defending these tires, like I said before, they're gimmicky, but, as I said, I'll take it over refuelling. What I do complaint about is Schumacher's point. He says he can't push to the limit, but that's not true, he can, and he will suffer for it, so would anyone else, same as it was before refueling, only it's very exagerated now BECAUSE the tires are gimmicky. My point is that, it's not like he could push to the limit in 91, 92, 93 the whole race either, you see where I'm going? sure, those tires didn't go off after 8 laps, but they did after 20, or 30, depending on how u MANAGED them. I say again, today's tires are gimicky and wear of exageratedly, so, I'm not defending, I'm merely pointing out Schumacher's point shouldn't be that he can't push, rather that the tires are gimmicky, and should last t least 1/3 of the race if managed. That's what he should come out and say, and not make it sound as if in Formula 1 you've always been able to push 100% of the time as it was in the time of his dominance, I'm sure he'd love it to be that way again, it fits him like a glove. I also think the forceful use of both compounds should be abolished, that is also gimmicky.

I've been involved in racing most of my life, retired now, but I actually shared grids with some of the drivers which we discuss in this forum at one point of my life or another. I too remember the good old days, back then, tires may not have been the main topic of discussion on TV, but I assure you, when it wasn't spec tires, it was a VERY imortant part of the equation. Do you remember the time when B'stone was making special tires for Ferrari even having a dedicated employee in Ferrari and vice versa? Tell me that wasn't considered important, and that was during the internet era, and was a very important topic. Tires is one of the most important pieces of the equation. Jarno Trulli won the World Karting CHampionship only when he had special B'stone tires cus he was the main B'stone driver that year. There was a time in Karting when if you raced on Vega tires in a major Karting event you were simply not going to have a shot on race day. Yes, tires are important at any level of racing, and like I said, one of the most important pieces of the puzzle, so, I don't agree when you say it's never been this important, it's aways been as important, it's just that tires have never been as f*ked up as now. I do not agree with your spec series line of thought, the day F1 turns spec as you say is the day I stop watching it.

Advertisement

#502 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,360 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:04

Ok, so what is the real Formula One?

Apparently where the best car wins.

The cars are beasts - FAIL ( I agree )
The tracks are tough, hard, distinctive and memorable - OH DEAR WHAT A FLOP ( I agree )

The best driver always wins - WHY?
The order is predictable and quantifiable - WHY?

The latter two are far at odds, showing a gap between what the f1 fanatic wants and what the casual sports fan wants. The casual sports fan pays the bills IMO. They want action, unpredictable results, lots of passing - they got it, in principle ratings should go up, more sponsors feature at the front of the race, win win for every one but the fanatic who wants flat out racing with tyres that never wear up (which is quite boring actually....).

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 April 2012 - 03:04.


#503 fisssssi

fisssssi
  • Member

  • 993 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:37

What does Mark Webber think?

#504 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:59

What we need is Bridgestone spec 'abuse me as much as you want' tyres that explode on precisely lap 15 of their stint forcing drivers to pit.

#505 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:07

Oh please stop bitching!

You want to compare Bahrain 2010 and 2012? Please dont kid me.

Tyres were always crucial and setting character of races. And yes nowadays races are different. But worse??

That delta times thingy is pure nonsense, nobody can predict how quickly to lap :-)

Before you could make many small mistakes (overdrive tyres so to say) without being punished, in a way it was much easier to be on edge.
Now max precision is required, to go close to limits but not over. Driver has as big role as before if not bigger.

Writing that tyres were loosing 7 sec. in stint is terrible lie. Most drivers managed to stay within 1 - 1,5 sec. during stint of 15+ laps. Look at Lewis, his last stint was 21 laps and last lap of race was only 1 sec. off his best lap.

If they are cruising so much why they dont go 2 sec./lap quicker and make 2 stops more? Two pits costs 40sec., lapping 2 sec. quicker would gain you 115 sec. Its because they are not cruising like many of you think.

Edited by abc, 24 April 2012 - 07:08.


#506 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:14

Ok, so what is the real Formula One?

2009. Where Q3 best time was 1 second better than the fastest race lap. Now it is 4-5 seconds. Last year was the same shit, just tyre window was bigger. We think that we are looking F1, when we really see fake show. Now MS come and tell them ,this is not F1.

Writing that tyres were loosing 7 sec. in stint is terrible lie. Most drivers managed to stay within 1 - 1,5 sec. during stint of 15+ laps. Look at Lewis, his last stint was 21 laps and last lap of race was only 1 sec. off his best lap.

If they are cruising so much why they dont go 2 sec./lap quicker and make 2 stops more? Two pits costs 40sec., lapping 2 sec. quicker would gain you 115 sec. Its because they are not cruising like many of you think.

It is not, they lose 5-7 sec for a stint if you push them 100% , if you don't push them and drive like grandma of course you are saving their life and you will lose 1-1,5 sec for a stint.
If you push this tires after two laps you start losing time. If you make as you suggest 2 sec faster lap. I guess you confused things. If you like fake show what we have now is perfect for you.

This is stint from Rosberg in the tests pushing 100%:
13:44:27 50 1:22.932 -0.278
13:45:33 51 1:23.602 +0.670
13:47:37 52 1:24.588 +0.986
13:48:31 53 1:25.418 +0.830
13:50:33 54 1:25.384 -0.034
13:51:29 55 1:25.750 +0.366
13:52:37 56 1:25.987 +0.237
13:54:27 57 1:25.893 -0.094
13:55:34 58 1:26.273 +0.380
13:57:35 59 1:26.384 +0.111
13:58:35 60 1:26.849 +0.465
14:00:28 61 1:27.094 +0.245
14:01:28 62 1:27.456 +0.362
And again:
12:42:29 32 1:23.040 -3.155
12:44:31 33 1:23.698 +0.658
12:45:26 34 1:24.614 +0.916
12:47:27 35 1:25.048 +0.434
12:48:33 36 1:25.537 +0.489
12:49:28 37 1:25.850 +0.313
12:51:31 38 1:25.775 -0.075
12:52:36 39 1:26.162 +0.387
And again:
11:10:26 12 1:24.353 -0.814
11:11:32 13 1:25.060 +0.707
11:13:35 14 1:25.345 +0.285
11:14:31 15 1:25.596 +0.251
11:16:31 16 1:26.057 +0.461
11:17:27 17 1:26.762 +0.705
11:19:28 18 1:27.007 +0.245
11:20:36 19 1:27.005 -0.002
This is how this tyres behave.

According to Pirelli , to drive at 100% is not necessary for F1. Drivers should drive with the speed their cheese tyres can handle. To have "perfect" degradation. Even if they have to drive 80-90% of their abilities.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 07:36.


#507 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:38

2009. Where Q3 best time was 1 second better than the fastest race lap. Now it is 4-5 seconds. Last year was the same shit, just tyre window was bigger. We think that we are looking F1, when we really see fake show. Now MS come and tell them ,this is not F1.

You mean 1 sec. from fake pole with race fuel? :lol:
There is nothing fake or mysterious when race is slower than qualifying. When they qualified with race fuel and tyres, first laps of race were always 3-4 sec. adrift from qualification times, you are always cruising badly in comparison to Q, I though that every fan understood that.

#508 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:51

You mean 1 sec. from fake pole with race fuel? :lol:
There is nothing fake or mysterious when race is slower than qualifying. When they qualified with race fuel and tyres, first laps of race were always 3-4 sec. adrift from qualification times, you are always cruising badly in comparison to Q, I though that every fan understood that.

OK, wrong year. What about 2006? Or other year they have close Q time and race fastest lap, and generally pushed 100%. I can't remember all details/rules in F1 that change every year.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 07:52.


#509 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:52

2009. Where Q3 best time was 1 second better than the fastest race lap. Now it is 4-5 seconds. Last year was the same shit, just tyre window was bigger. We think that we are looking F1, when we really see fake show. Now MS come and tell them ,this is not F1.



This is stint from Rosberg in the tests pushing 100%:

Oh come on, you bring testing as an argument? I tell you that, Kimi stayed in low 37s. for 15 laps in last stint. Best 15+ laps stints in Bahrain in 2009 were around one second quicker, Q2 times were 0,8sec. quicker that year than now. I dont see any reason for grandma cruising argument bar following blindly everything your favorite driver says.

Edited by abc, 24 April 2012 - 08:20.


#510 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:00

Oh come you bring testing as an argument? I tell you that, Kimi stayed in low 37s. for 15 laps in last stint. Best 15+ laps stints in Bahrain in 2009 were around one second quicker, Q2 times were 0,8sec. quicker that year than now. I dont see any reason for grandma cruising argument bar following blindly everything your favorute driver says.

Yes, because there they were learning about the tyres and pushed 100% to see how they will handle. It is normal. Ross Brawn said then that they pushed to see the degradation. I guess my driver knows what he is talking much better than you? Or you say he is laying? His team mate say the same thing, they all say that they don't push, they conserve. I will check what you say about Bahrain. It is probably because Pirrelli tyres are much quicker than 2009 Bridgestones. Softer. Paste 2009 stint here.

I will see you next time when Kimi fell of the cliff. You guys change from race to race. :rotfl: He have to thank to his engineers that make Bahrain possible. If Kimi like racing like that, my opinion about him will change. I thought he like to push, but maybe he changed. So, then maybe this F1 is for him. But it is not for the 7 time WDC. He don't like bullshit.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 08:08.


#511 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:15

OK, wrong year. What about 2006? Or other year they have close Q time and race fastest lap, and generally pushed 100%. I can't remember all details/rules in F1 that change every year.

Thats quite a challenge to argue with you if you throw years in like this :cat:
Same as for 2009, Q3 with race fuel, times in race nowhere near Q. Best 15+ laps stints averaging at 1.33,5, but those cars were 2,5sec. quicker in Q than todays cars. They were relatively slower at the beginning of stint which tells me, that drivers today still push. They went quicker towards end of stint, because tyres held better, today at the end of stint drivers are lapping 2 sec.slower than in 2006 in relation to ultimate pace of car, because of less traction and grip, but they still have to try quite hard to achieve those times on worn tyres.


#512 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:18

I will see you next time when Kimi fell of the cliff. You guys change from race to race. :rotfl: He have to thank to his engineers that make Bahrain possible. If Kimi like racing like that, my opinion about him will change. I thought he like to push, but maybe he changed. So, then maybe this F1 is for him. But it is not for the 7 time WDC. He don't like bullshit.

OK you win, bring back formula of 2000-2009. It was feast watching MSC being followed by FA for 57 laps, pushing every corner 100% because otherwise FA would eat him alive on track. :wave:

Edited by abc, 24 April 2012 - 08:22.


#513 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:25

And btw, obviously there are still drivers who know how to cruise quicker, maybe time for MSC to learn something about cruising quicker, too?

#514 piszkosfred

piszkosfred
  • Member

  • 148 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:26

Perhaps teams should get more set of tires on the race weekends, they will know the tires better, less suprises in the race. I always found annoying that a F1 team spends a couple of 100 million per year but they have to spare tyres the whole weekend for the race. Also a 2 day test somewhere every month would help I think.

#515 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:28

And btw, obviously there are still drivers who know how to cruise quicker, maybe time for MSC to learn something about cruising quicker, too?


Who? names please.

#516 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:31

OK you win, bring back formula of 2000-2009. It was feast watching MSC being followed by FA for 57 laps, pushing every corner 100% because otherwise FA would eat him alive. :wave:

OK, you say 2009 they drive full tanks in Q3. How about Q2? Because I see they lose only 1-1,5 sec from empty to full tank? Strange. So, my point about Q(it is Q2 then) and race still stand, it is not 1 sec, it is 2 sec(this is about Bahrain). Still in Turkey 2009 they were 1,27.5 in the race and 1,27.0 in Q2. I guess they were pushing hard. I didn't check all races.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 08:32.


#517 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:31

Who? names please.

Watch races.

#518 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:34

If they are cruising so much why they dont go 2 sec./lap quicker and make 2 stops more? Two pits costs 40sec., lapping 2 sec. quicker would gain you 115 sec. Its because they are not cruising like many of you think.


Because they can't.

A.) They don't have enough tyres for a 5 stop strategy.

B.) Any quicker and the tyres will just disintegrate after 6-7 laps, so two more stops would probably not be enough.

So what you are really suggesting is that we give the teams more tyres and let them all do 8-10 stop races.

Seriously, is that your best answer?

Or would it not be more sensible to have tyres that can last 15-20 laps when cruising, or allow for the teams to make a choice to push hard and only get 10-15 laps out of them. Answer honestly, what would be wrong with that?

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 08:35.


#519 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:35

Perhaps teams should get more set of tires on the race weekends, they will know the tires better, less suprises in the race. I always found annoying that a F1 team spends a couple of 100 million per year but they have to spare tyres the whole weekend for the race. Also a 2 day test somewhere every month would help I think.

Definitely, more tyres would be appropriate. Its also immensely annoying that drivers have to sit out Q2 and Q3. Give them one more set of softs nad hards - easy fix.


Advertisement

#520 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:35

Watch races.


That answer is not good enough. You said some drivers can, tell me names.

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 08:36.


#521 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,338 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:37

It is pathetic people talking about fake show when the fakery is here since 70's and 80's . All regulation that have been increasing is just that. Compare the rule book today with rule book of 30 years ago.

No decent F1 driver "cruises around" to a lap delta.


Stop saying crap. Lap Delta is what every race driver does in every car sport. The limitation might be tires, engines, the track, the brakes, anything else. In past was much bigger where every mechanical component had to be nursed. There were pilots with reputation to break things and pilots of reputation that were good to the material.

It is also amusing the claiming cries of ShowBiz when there is the DRS. Of course it is a showbiz did you wake up from the coffin today?

This is just Schumacher - he had a Ferrari that didn't break for more than a year - when F1 started to change for cars that didn't break. Plus some cry babies of Mclaren fans that now see it might not look like a dominant year.





#522 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:38

And btw, obviously there are still drivers who know how to cruise quicker, maybe time for MSC to learn something about cruising quicker, too?


Not really, he made it up to 10th from 22nd, and was usually equal if not faster than Rosberg in the races in 2011 precisely because of his managing of the tyres. Please read this article by Mark Hughes, it was written following the 2011 Chinese GP:


"The fast-wearing traits of the Pirelli F1 tyres made for a great Chinese Grand Prix; strategic variation and hugely different performance levels according to compound and usage - enough to create overtaking even without the help of DRS wings and KERS. But there is a price.

The game has changed. Driving a grand prix is now a matter of tyre conservation. The most effective way of minimising your stint time now is not to drive flat-out but to begin it around 3s off the pace and only gradually begin to push harder - at about the same rate the tyre grip is dropping off, the two largely cancelling each other out so the net effect is near enough the same lap time throughout the stint. Hamilton's victory might have looked flat-out, but it wasn't. "I was just trying to nurse my tyres while trying to pick up pace," he said afterwards. If you didn't know better, you might think it was endurance racing. Except that in endurance racing they now drive flat-out the whole way - just like they used to in F1!

Anthony Davidson's F1 career didn't take off in the way it might have, but he's still driving flat-out - in endurance racing for Peugeot. Here's his take on it: "We do drive pretty much all-out from the start. Just as in anything, you are driving to the level of the tyre and if the tyre will take it, you cannot afford not to. My quadruple stint at Le Mans last year, which was the quickest ever, was about driving every lap like a qualifying lap. But we can't always do that. At Paul Ricard, for example, it's a very front-tyre limited track and we're finding we are having to save the tyre early in the stint to give us the fastest overall time. The mentality of F1 driving is now shifting towards that. I wouldn't say it's better or worse, just different. What's better, the 100-metre sprint or the London Marathon?"

Some drivers are adapting to it more naturally than others. Pirelli found, for example, that Fernando Alonso was initially very aggressive with the tyres, particularly the fronts, but say that he's now found the sweet spot of technique. It would be fair to say that both Hamilton and Mark Webber are only reluctantly coming to terms with the less-is-more approach. Although in Melbourne Lewis's tyres were holding out better than Sebastian Vettel's, at the more tyre-demanding venue of Sepang, flat-spotting a set of softs in qualifying eventually cost him dear in the race, forcing him onto a well-used set of hards in his third stint that left him off the pace and eventually led to a late fourth stop. "These tyres are finished," he said, after sliding off, "I'm coming in." The team implored him to stay out, pointing out there were only three laps left, but in he came anyway.

Webber, who tends to keep the lateral load on the car just that little bit longer than Vettel, is proving harder on the rubber than his team-mate and is disdainful of people being able to get in the points by driving at not much more than GP2 pace for big parts of the race. A Moto GP bike, with only two tiny strips of rubber, can lap Sepang within 13s of the times the lower order points scorers were doing in the race there. Teams are now instructing drivers to use coasting techniques into the braking areas, for if they are having to drive off the pace for the sake of tyre life, they may as well save fuel and enable the car to start lighter. In F1! It's somewhat ironic that the sport rejected Michelin's proposal to use an F1 programme to promote fuel economy tyres, yet inadvertently that's exactly what we have now.

Does it matter? If the 'show' is good, what's the problem? The problem is that F1 races have always been contested as close to flat-out as they possibly could be, given the technology of the era. For the first time, we have deliberately introduced technology that enforces endurance driving. In China the excellent show disguised that. But it won't always."


Schumacher is just telling it how it is and it's astonishing people are ignoring it - rather than listening to what he is saying they're just trying to think up reasons for why he's saying it. I guess the truth of what he is saying is just too uncomfortable for most to swallow.

#523 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,207 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:40

We had an epic season in 2010 with these hard Bridgestones, couple that with DRS and KERS and it'd be awesome. No need for the degradation, just pure speed.


+1 .

Bridgestone tyres + DRS and KERS is the way to go

#524 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:46

OK, you say 2009 they drive full tanks in Q3. How about Q2? Because I see they lose only 1-1,5 sec from empty to full tank? Strange. So, my point about Q(it is Q2 then) and race still stand, it is not 1 sec, it is 2 sec(this is about Bahrain). Still in Turkey 2009 they were 1,27.5 in the race and 1,27.0 in Q2. I guess they were pushing hard. I didn't check all races.

As I wrote earlier this year they usually start stints with very quick laps - no cruising. They get slower towards end of stint because of worn tyres, but that doesnt mean they have easy ride, opposite could be the case IMO.
Fastest lap is misleading as before they achieved that on low fuel and now its with a lot of fuel on board. Average stint times are better indicator and although they are slower this year, you would expect that with bigger tyre degradation.

Edited by abc, 24 April 2012 - 08:59.


#525 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,338 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:54

Also time differences are much shorter so a fall in tire performance seems like a giant thing because the driver ends up in 7th or 8th. So that amplifies what it appears to be.


Many Senna Vs Prost races ended with 30 sec differences at end in 1st and 2nd place . Today 30sec means 1st place <----> 7th or 8th place.

#526 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:55

Because they can't.

So what you are really suggesting is that we give the teams more tyres and let them all do 8-10 stop races.

Seriously, is that your best answer?

Seriously Im not suggesting that at all. I only wrote they would do it if tyres were so bad (new tyres or not, they dont have new tyres for stints most of the time anyway) and they were cruising so badly, but its obviously not the case.

Anyway races which are most remembered by MSCfans are those where he did 4 stops and qualifying laps all the way, so that cant be so bad idea either.
For me race with mix of 2-3 stops is the best, I wrote it quite clearly.

#527 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:56

As I wrote this year they usually start stints with very quick laps - no cruising. They get slower towards end of stint because of worn tyres, but that doesnt mean they have easy ride, opposite could be the case IMO.


Do you have any references for this?

I just find it strange that you are directly contradicting not only what Schumacher and Rosberg have said but also what just about everyone connected with the sport are saying, and in some cases have been saying for a year now.

I am honestly interested in understanding why they are all wrong.



#528 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:58

No one ever asked for drivers to cruise around to a lap delta. It's a complete absurdity and it undermines everything.


Can you prove that? This year I've never heard any radio transmition with like "Driver X, you have to do a lap time 1:**.* to save tires"

I don't find any surprise that suddenly when Merc is nowhere near a podium in the race their drivers camplain about crappy tyres. Last week when they were 1-2 in Qualy and Rsberg won the race, the were pretty satisfied with Pirelli, weren't they?




#529 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:00

For me race with mix of 2-3 stops is the best, I wrote it quite clearly.


2-3 stops with drivers only doing 70% or 2-3 stops with drivers doing what it takes to win?

A great example is looking at the last stint of the race on Sunday, Button - Alonso - Hamilton - Massa, for ages lapping about 2 seconds apart, at the same pace. At first I was waiting to see Hamilton overtake Alonso and race Button for position in the closing laps. Obviously Button retired but before he did it was clear that was never going to happen anyway. Hamilton, in a much faster car, caught up to the back of him, just sat 2 seconds behind Alonso for what, 14 laps? He couldn't push because dare he drive at more than his preprogrammed delta then his tyres would be jelly and Massa would be all over the back of him.

Is this honestly what you think constitutes good racing nowadays? I am amazed that people here seem to think it is.

#530 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:02

I don't find any surprise that suddenly when Merc is nowhere near a podium in the race their drivers camplain about crappy tyres. Last week when they were 1-2 in Qualy and Rsberg won the race, the were pretty satisfied with Pirelli, weren't they?


Yes they did. Rosberg did. He was hanging on to win that race and complained afterwards that he was not able to push.

#531 jamiegc

jamiegc
  • Member

  • 2,429 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:06

+1 .

Bridgestone tyres + DRS and KERS is the way to go


Had they had Bridgestone tyres last season, the RBs wouldve lapped everybody at least once per race....

#532 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,753 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:06

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17816565

It was also interesting to hear Mercedes' Michael Schumacher complain about the Pirelli tyres.

He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.

When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.

They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.

It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.

Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier.


:up:
Is good that the truth finally starts coming out. Bridgestone was also the best tire (the ones that was on MS´s car)
That´s what I´ve been saying for years about Schumacher. Without the best tires or equipment he´s rather ordinary,
which is what we see today



#533 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:06

Can you prove that? This year I've never heard any radio transmition with like "Driver X, you have to do a lap time 1:**.* to save tires"

I don't find any surprise that suddenly when Merc is nowhere near a podium in the race their drivers camplain about crappy tyres. Last week when they were 1-2 in Qualy and Rsberg won the race, the were pretty satisfied with Pirelli, weren't they?


See the OP.

His interview with the BBC:




I understand he was very vocal about this, even moreso with the German media.

Rosberg has said for a long time that you can't push at all on these tyres, he said he didn't push a single lap of the race en route to his victory at China. There's nothing inconsistent about what these guys are saying, they're just telling it how it is. And as Mark Hughes has already alluded to, the best way to get maximum life out of the tyres is to drive at a given pace to balance the fuel consumption vs tyre deg so that it results in a fairly even pace across the stint - the tyre deg is so lateral that this is the only sensible way to go.

#534 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:07

Can you prove that? This year I've never heard any radio transmition with like "Driver X, you have to do a lap time 1:**.* to save tires"

I don't find any surprise that suddenly when Merc is nowhere near a podium in the race their drivers camplain about crappy tyres. Last week when they were 1-2 in Qualy and Rsberg won the race, the were pretty satisfied with Pirelli, weren't they?

They don't have to tell him, he see it on the steering wheel. This delta difference for that predetermined speed he need.
No, Nico just say after he won: I was never able to push 100%. Not even for a lap.


#535 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:07

Schumacher is just telling it how it is and it's astonishing people are ignoring it - rather than listening to what he is saying they're just trying to think up reasons for why he's saying it. I guess the truth of what he is saying is just too uncomfortable for most to swallow.

I assure you I couldnt care less what he is saying..
You brought article from early 2011, but it looked to me, people more or less liked 2011 season, no?
Whats wrong with nursing tyre in race and going flat out in Q? These two were always two different disciplines and thats right.
We can argue to what degree nursing tyres should be part of race. Bahrain WAS little too much in that regard, but still laptimes are quite competitive, new tyres lasted 20 laps, it was no big disaster.


#536 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:14

We can argue to what degree nursing tyres should be part of race. Bahrain WAS little too much in that regard, but still laptimes are quite competitive, new tyres lasted 20 laps, it was no big disaster.

They know haw to save this tyres, by not pushing. The tyres can last whole race if the drive even slower. I want tyres that can be pushed hard and to lose 2 sec per 12-15 laps. Not to lose 1 sec per lap, but going 2-3 sec slower and at 80% of what drivers and car can do.

With tyres like this you don't need to update the car. What is 0,2 from FW , when you gain or lose seconds from cheese tyres. What is DDRS? It is nothing. What is aero , it is nothing. The same for drivers. They can be 0,1-0,2-0,3 sec between the drivers, but hell with that. TYRES RULES. PIRELLI the Assholes rules. The hell with F1.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 09:20.


#537 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:14

Rosberg has said for a long time that you can't push at all on these tyres, he said he didn't push a single lap of the race en route to his victory at China. There's nothing inconsistent about what these guys are saying, they're just telling it how it is. And as Mark Hughes has already alluded to, the best way to get maximum life out of the tyres is to drive at a given pace to balance the fuel consumption vs tyre deg so that it results in a fairly even pace across the stint - the tyre deg is so lateral that this is the only sensible way to go.


May I remind you that Rosberg was on 2 stopper. If he wanted to push, he should've chosen the 3 stop strategy, but he has not done that.

Isn't it what you asked for? A flexible strategy? I don't say that I fully agree with Pirelli unpredictable selfdistraction. But it seems to me that some drivers have become to lazy to even try to understand and work with tyres. You cannot just seat and push like hell in so complicated sport like F1, the QUEEN OF MOTORSPORT, I must say. It's no go-kart.

#538 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,914 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:16

I think after Schumacher's comments, a lot more drivers are going to be vocal about the tyres. Button has complained - someone (rightly or wrongly) renowned for tyre conversation - Hamilton, Alonso et al have all complained; even Nico en route to victory in China said he couldn't push to the maximum.

At the end of the day, all this tyre talk is bad PR for Pirelli, their board will have to react accordingly and I suspect they'll develop some more durable tyres mid-way through the European season.

The moaning will never stop though.


#539 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:19

Bahrain WAS little too much in that regard, but still laptimes are quite competitive, new tyres lasted 20 laps, it was no big disaster.


It is a huge disaster.

We have this season 6 world champions. We have some of the most exciting drivers ever to have raced in F1. From Kimi and Schumacher, the stars of yesterday to Alonso, Button, Vettell and Hamilton - stars of today along with some new talent that might shine were they allowed to.

But we have all this talent and yet we are telling them they cannot race!

Everyone, up to now, have been saying how mature Hamilton is this season, how composed and clever he is by turning into Prost and collecting points. I think most casual viewers would think he is being a little too boring. But now the truth is out, Hamilton is not being boring, he is being forced into driving like that because he cannot push on the tyres.

Answer me, what exactly is the point of having Alonso and Hamilton if they cannot turn it on?

The biggest losers from this debacle are the fast and talented drivers, the biggest winners are the also rans who are now getting excited because they can sniff the podium - problem is they are only sniffing the podium because everyone is being forced to drive at the same speed.

Advertisement

#540 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:20

2-3 stops with drivers only doing 70% or 2-3 stops with drivers doing what it takes to win?

A great example is looking at the last stint of the race on Sunday, Button - Alonso - Hamilton - Massa, for ages lapping about 2 seconds apart, at the same pace. At first I was waiting to see Hamilton overtake Alonso and race Button for position in the closing laps. Obviously Button retired but before he did it was clear that was never going to happen anyway. Hamilton, in a much faster car, caught up to the back of him, just sat 2 seconds behind Alonso for what, 14 laps? He couldn't push because dare he drive at more than his preprogrammed delta then his tyres would be jelly and Massa would be all over the back of him.

Is this honestly what you think constitutes good racing nowadays? I am amazed that people here seem to think it is.

I really dont think its 70%. If drivers could do whatever it takes, they wouldnt stop for new tyres.
I saw many overtakes on Sunday. Hamilton just didnt have car to beat Alonso in that phase of race. In previous years I saw cars 2 sec.quicker unable to pass.
Nursing tyres in race is normal. Locking, blocking and smoking tyres without any consequences isnt.


#541 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:21

May I remind you that Rosberg was on 2 stopper. If he wanted to push, he should've chosen the 3 stop strategy, but he has not done that.

Isn't it what you asked for? A flexible strategy? I don't say that I fully agree with Pirelli unpredictable selfdistraction. But it seems to me that some drivers have become to lazy to even try to understand and work with tyres. You cannot just seat and push like hell in so complicated sport like F1, the QUEEN OF MOTORSPORT, I must say. It's no go-kart.


Have you not read the thread?

You cannot push on these tyres at all. If it were a case of pushing a bit harder and doing an extra stop this thread would not exist. If you push on these tyres they fall apart almost immediately. This is the problem.

What most are asking for here are tyres that will let you push harder on at the expense of having to make an extra stop.

Seriously, read the comments first.

#542 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:26

Have you not read the thread?

You cannot push on these tyres at all. If it were a case of pushing a bit harder and doing an extra stop this thread would not exist. If you push on these tyres they fall apart almost immediately. This is the problem.

What most are asking for here are tyres that will let you push harder on at the expense of having to make an extra stop.

Seriously, read the comments first.


are you absolutely sure about that? it is just a rumor that spread, and if repeated enough it will became the "truth"

those tyres can be pushed -but nobody found a way to effectivly push them -yet. Maybe only Mercedes in China. So we need few more races and you will see that those tyres can be pushed

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 09:26.


#543 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:27

The biggest losers from this debacle are the fast and talented drivers, the biggest winners are the also rans who are now getting excited because they can sniff the podium - problem is they are only sniffing the podium because everyone is being forced to drive at the same speed.

This "same speed" argument is quite easy to debunk, you know that?


#544 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:28

are you absolutely sure about that? it is just a rumor that spread, and if repeated enough it will became the "truth"

those tyres can be pushed -but nobody found a way to effectivly push them -yet. Maybe only Mercedes in China. So we need few more races and you will see that those tyres can be pushed

Show us where they pushed them? For a 100th time, Nico said after China that he didn't push even for a lap. Other drivers are just scared, MS of course don't care. More drivers will come forward soon.

Pushing hard Button ,test Barcelona 03.03:
16:16:33 36 1:22.872 +0.769
16:17:29 37 1:23.635 +0.763
16:18:36 38 1:24.596 +0.961
16:20:35 39 1:24.122 -0.474

Kimi:
15:21:25 19 1:25.379 -0.241
15:22:32 20 1:27.284 +1.905
15:24:34 21 1:26.434 -0.850
15:25:28 22 1:26.549 +0.115
15:27:26 23 1:29.229 +2.680
15:28:37 24 1:27.430 -1.799
15:29:33 25 1:27.845 +0.415
Again Kimi:
16:23:37 37 1:25.414 -1.884
16:24:32 38 1:26.156 +0.742
16:26:35 39 1:26.137 -0.019
16:27:31 40 1:27.077 +0.940
16:29:34 41 1:26.833 -0.244
16:30:30 42 1:27.498 +0.665

If you really push you are 1,6 sec slower in your third lap.

Webber:
10:51:25 10 1:23.577 -2.861
10:53:28 11 1:24.028 +0.451
10:54:34 12 1:24.639 +0.611
10:56:36 13 1:25.671 +1.032

11:55:29 22 1:23.347 -3.739
11:56:35 23 1:24.027 +0.680
11:57:32 24 1:25.347 +1.320
11:59:33 25 1:26.551 +1.204

Imagine if they were pushing like that in Bahrain. They will not finish the race. There will be no tyres left.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 09:42.


#545 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:28

those tyres can be pushed -but nobody found a way to effectivly push them -yet. Maybe only Mercedes in China. So we need few more races and you will see that those tyres can be pushed


Why then, immediately after the race, did Rosberg complain that he couldn't push at all during the race?

#546 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:29

Have you not read the thread?

You cannot push on these tyres at all. If it were a case of pushing a bit harder and doing an extra stop this thread would not exist. If you push on these tyres they fall apart almost immediately. This is the problem.

What most are asking for here are tyres that will let you push harder on at the expense of having to make an extra stop.

Seriously, read the comments first.


I_just_don't_buy_it. All this thread is full of moaning and despair. I'm sure some fans will never be satisfied with what they actually see, because the F1 they want exists only in their mind. You are now talking that 06 was a fantastic year with drivers on their limit over the SEASON, when actually in was 50+ laps chasing each other with 0.5 gap and only pit-stops that could cause the changes in positions.

Drivers can push like hell. But that would demand 4-5 stops. If it was the fastest way, teams would choose it, you can be sure.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 24 April 2012 - 09:30.


#547 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,338 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:29

You cannot push on these tyres at all.


You are wrong or you are a liar. Everybody pushes in those tires. Did you never see any lockups this year? I saw many.

I did Rosberg complain that he couldn't push at all during the race?


Rosberg didn't pushed in China race because he did not need it. Pfft....

Edited by AlexS, 24 April 2012 - 09:30.


#548 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,949 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:31

Have you not read the thread?

You cannot push on these tyres at all. If it were a case of pushing a bit harder and doing an extra stop this thread would not exist. If you push on these tyres they fall apart almost immediately. This is the problem.

What most are asking for here are tyres that will let you push harder on at the expense of having to make an extra stop.

Seriously, read the comments first.

They push them quite hard in Q3 and in initial laps of stints and I didnt witness anything you are mentioning there.
If you take as a gospel that they could go 3-5sec.quicker , then its your right, but you are wrong.


#549 merschu

merschu
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:32

Saw this on Martin Brundle's reflection on the Bahrain GP article:

In eight days we have had two great races largely driven by the degradation and resultant strategy dilemmas around the Pirelli tyres. In our show I expressed an opinion that whilst I'm really enjoying the races I wouldn't want F1 to become only about the tyres. I hadn't realised that Michael Schumacher was about to launch a broadside at the difficulty of managing the narrow window of performance and the high drop off of the tyre grip.

On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are.

http://www1.skysport...ions-On-Bahrain

Other drivers feel the same as Michael, probably soon they will also open up to the media about it!


#550 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:33

And seriously... Taking the view of Merc drivers, who cannot sort out their tire wear issues for the third year in a row (!) as a thuth is a bit.. wrong I guess.