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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#551 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:35

Show us where they pushed them? For a 100th time, Nico said after China that he didn't push even for a lap. Other drivers are just scared, MS of course don't care. More drivers will come forward soon.


nico pushed in the opening laps -he pulled some 7 seconds gap over 2nd place

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#552 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:35

Saw this on Martin Brundle's reflection on the Bahrain GP article:

Other drivers feel the same as Michael, probably soon they will also open up to the media about it!


They are wrong!!!

Don't you get it? What the hell do drivers know?

They should be asking some of the guys here, they know you can push.

#553 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:35

Why then, immediately after the race, did Rosberg complain that he couldn't push at all during the race?


people lie

#554 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:40

nico pushed in the opening laps -he pulled some 7 seconds gap over 2nd place


And it has been pointed out on numerous occasions that being in clean air is a HUGE factor in the tyres performance.

#555 Massa_f1

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:40

Saw this on Martin Brundle's reflection on the Bahrain GP article:

http://www1.skysport...ions-On-Bahrain

Other drivers feel the same as Michael, probably soon they will also open up to the media about it!



Easy to guess what 2 drivers he spoke to. Hamilton/Webber? As much as people on this thread would love to think it is just Schumacher complaining. I think you find other drivers are behind closed doors.
They should of left the tyres as they were last year.

Edited by Massa_f1, 24 April 2012 - 09:45.


#556 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:42

Easy to guess what 2 drivers he spoke to. Hamilton/Webber?

Surely Ham but Webbo is not a WDC. Don't think it's a Kimi either. Alonso?

Edit: my bad, read the Brandle's quote again. Yeah, probably Webbo.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 24 April 2012 - 09:43.


#557 Spa95

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:44

Other drivers feel the same as Michael, probably soon they will also open up to the media about it!

Doubt it, Michael has done the 'dirty' work for them so they don't have to speak out about it anymore.

#558 Pamphlet

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:45

Sounds like Mark to me.

#559 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:46

people lie


...including you?

What a silly thing to say. An F1 driver (more than one it seems) says they can't push on the tyres and your answer is they are lying?

Why?

Are they invested in Bridgestone shares?



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#560 ivand911

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:47

Are they invested in Bridgestone shares?

MS for sure is. :wave: :rotfl: Just kidding.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 09:47.


#561 AlexS

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:48

Monkey drivers - Well Lauda and Mansell were saying that in middle of 2000's

The nature of F1 changed and no one complained...

Now like spoiled children they have found an hiccup, an hint of uncertainty and they cry like babies.

#562 abc

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:52

Poor drivers, they HAVE TO be quick but being over the limit of tyres is mistake which can bite you, where has the fun of driving gone?

#563 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:52

...including you?

What a silly thing to say. An F1 driver (more than one it seems) says they can't push on the tyres and your answer is they are lying?

Why?

Are they invested in Bridgestone shares?



why would rosberg adimt that he was pushing and let everyone know that they unlocked pirellis mistery -at least in cold conditions

#564 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:57

Poor drivers, they HAVE TO be quick but being over the limit of tyres is mistake which can bite you, where has the fun of driving gone?


yeah sure. poor drivers from the late 80s and early 90s. when they had to nurse the gearboxes all race long. sometimes they drove with 3 gears in the final stages, sometimes only one. where was fun then? and everyone is praising that era of F1. In 1989 Prost won the title only because he could nurse gearbox better than Senna. Yeah, you herad me he won because he was gentle with gearbox, not because of Balasterie and Suzuka -thats just usual commercialized excuse for people that do not understand the essence of motorracing. So there has to be an evil man somewhere -Mr. Balesterie!!!

now we have evil in the shape of Pirellis -yeah, right


Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 09:59.


#565 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:03

yeah sure. poor drivers from the late 80s and early 90s. when they had to nurse the gearboxes all race long. sometimes they drove with 3 gears in the final stages, sometimes only one. where was fun then? and everyone is praising that era of F1. In 1989 Prost won the title only because he could nurse gearbox better than Senna. Yeah, you herad me he won because he was gentle with gearbox, not because of Balasterie and Suzuka -thats just usual commercialized excuse for people that do not understand the essence of motorracing. So there has to be an evil man somewhere -Mr. Balesterie!!!

now we have evil in the shape of Pirellis -yeah, right

:up:

It will always be like that as people support different drivers. As long as your driver is winning no one will complain.

#566 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:07

yeah sure. poor drivers from the late 80s and early 90s. when they had to nurse the gearboxes all race long. sometimes they drove with 3 gears in the final stages, sometimes only one. where was fun then? and everyone is praising that era of F1. In 1989 Prost won the title only because he could nurse gearbox better than Senna. Yeah, you herad me he won because he was gentle with gearbox, not because of Balasterie and Suzuka -thats just usual commercialized excuse for people that do not understand the essence of motorracing. So there has to be an evil man somewhere -Mr. Balesterie!!!

now we have evil in the shape of Pirellis -yeah, right


Honestly. You are completely and utterly missing the point. You appear to be imagining that people on this thread, and the drivers, are complaining that drivers are not able to push their cars 100% all the time.

If you actually read this thread you would understand it is something completely different. You obviously don't understand that yet, maybe soon you will. But in the meantime you are being incredibly patronising to the people here who do.

By the way, I have been watching F1 for 30 years, I do not need a lesson on how the cars used to behave. We are talking about something else here.

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 10:08.


#567 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:10

:up:

It will always be like that as people support different drivers. As long as your driver is winning no one will complain.


My driver is having a great start to the season, all things considered. He is 2nd in the championship despite suffering some very bad luck. I am more than happy.

Your next patronising comment is?

#568 Pamphlet

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:11

By the way, I have been watching F1 for 30 years, I do not need a lesson on how the cars used to behave.


I have no place in this discussion but this argument is and forever will be horsepudding. It's easy to be "uneducated", even when it comes to something that you've supposedly experienced.

Otherwise, I fully stand by your post.

#569 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:15

why would rosberg adimt that he was pushing and let everyone know that they unlocked pirellis mistery -at least in cold conditions


How then did Rosberg get pole position purely based on the fact he got his lap in before the track temp cooled down?

You are missing the fact that Rosberg only won in China because he started in pole. Racing at the front in clean air is a major factor in the tyres working better, same for Vettel on Sunday. He complained he was just trying to hang on and not able to push ever.

#570 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:18

I have no place in this discussion but this argument is and forever will be horsepudding. It's easy to be "uneducated", even when it comes to something that you've supposedly experienced.

Otherwise, I fully stand by your post.


Thanks, and yes I know, I apologise. I hate having to justify myself with something like that. I just get bored of the silly "But Mansell used to nurse his moustache getting caught up in the front wheels, so they all nurse cars all the time." tales.



#571 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:22

My driver is having a great start to the season, all things considered. He is 2nd in the championship despite suffering some very bad luck. I am more than happy.

Your next patronising comment is?


Well ok. I can suggest you just one thing - give Pirelli a time and they'll find the best optimum solution. I'm sure right after refuelling was introdused, oldschool hard-core fans of the F1 80'-90' were a bit of shocked as Formula has switched from long race game to a series of quick sprints. Drivers didn't need to think with their heads any more, they just had to push like hell. Era of "smart drivers" has ended, and someone was dissapointed that time as well. We all just need time to get used to changes.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 24 April 2012 - 10:23.


#572 ivand911

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:25

Well ok. I can suggest you just one thing - give Pirelli a time and they'll find the best optimum solution. I'm sure right after refuelling was introdused, oldschool hard-core fans of the F1 80'-90' were a bit of shocked as Formula has switched from long race game to a series of quick sprints. Drivers didn't need to think with their heads any more, they just had to push like hell. Era of "smart drivers" has ended, and someone was dissapointed that time as well. We all just need time to get used to changes.

If you have problem with fast F1, more of us don't. More F1 fans like fast. Drivers I guess too.

Pirelli: Tyres will not decide 2012 Formula 1 title battle
http://www.autosport......com F1 news)
Of course they will.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 10:32.


#573 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:33

If you have problem with fast F1, more of us don't. More F1 fans like fast. Drivers I guess too.


If I liked slow, I'd watch chess. I do like flat out F1, I don't like F1 wins in first corner. And I have no issue with cheesy tyres, I just want them to be PREDICTABLE.

#574 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:34

Ok, so what is the real Formula One?


The one where they RACE and don't think "If I try and pass,will my tires die"?

The one where drivers looked tired like proper athletes and not like they were playing 2hrs of X-Box.

The one they are on the edge and pushing 100%

The one where your target is 5 seconds ahead and you have more than one shot to pass without fear of your tires dying.

THE REAL F1 IS THE ONE WHERE FEAR DOESN'T EXIST,F1 PILOTS ARE FEARLESS SOBs
and seeing them drive around in fear that the tires might go anytime it's the biggest turnoff.

I could go on but you should get it by now.

#575 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:43

Well ok. I can suggest you just one thing - give Pirelli a time and they'll find the best optimum solution. I'm sure right after refuelling was introdused, oldschool hard-core fans of the F1 80'-90' were a bit of shocked as Formula has switched from long race game to a series of quick sprints. Drivers didn't need to think with their heads any more, they just had to push like hell. Era of "smart drivers" has ended, and someone was dissapointed that time as well. We all just need time to get used to changes.


I agree. But it is Pirelli who need to find the best solution, which makes this thread correct, it is a Pirelli problem.

It appears that the teams are unable to because the tyre's performance is so dependant on track & temperature differences, without the ability to practise on Sunday morning and make changes accordingly then logic says it is impossible for teams to get the tyres working.

I best this will be proven when we have a race, probably next race in Spain, where Saturday conditions and Sunday conditions are the same. Then we might finally see who the team really is who can make it work.

Someone else has been saying this and I agree, maybe the answer is not fixing the tyres but bringing back Sunday morning sessions - this would at least take away the lottery aspect which is what we have now.

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 10:44.


#576 Markn93

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:44

Ok, so what is the real Formula One?


This, http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
and this,


Just a couple of (modern) examples. And you know what, people look back at that and don't even think about the tyres and the role they played, just the the great driving.

Edited by Markn93, 24 April 2012 - 10:46.


#577 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:46

I assure you I couldnt care less what he is saying..
You brought article from early 2011, but it looked to me, people more or less liked 2011 season, no?
Whats wrong with nursing tyre in race and going flat out in Q? These two were always two different disciplines and thats right.
We can argue to what degree nursing tyres should be part of race. Bahrain WAS little too much in that regard, but still laptimes are quite competitive, new tyres lasted 20 laps, it was no big disaster.


Why?Why?Why? For what purpose? To see what? To achieve what? Who can drive slower?

Why not just do it like NASCAR with BS yellow flag cautions?It's more honest because the bunching up is fake but the Racing is REAL.

In F1 everything is FAKE now.

#578 ivand911

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:50

If I liked slow, I'd watch chess. I do like flat out F1, I don't like F1 wins in first corner. And I have no issue with cheesy tyres, I just want them to be PREDICTABLE.

Yeah ,we need bigger tyre window. This is the biggest problem for predictability. So, all the teams to get in it and just to manage the degradation. We don't need small window and degradation. Take tyre window out of the picture ,rest will be more manageable. Like last year. We saw in Bahrain that all teams manage the degradation, but the problem is who is in and who is out of the tyre window.
Still more durable tyre will be even better. But, bigger tyre window is good compromise for start. But, still we saw that the best guys in Bahrain, didn't attack each other even if they were in the tyre window. Just tyre window spread them in two groups. RBR, Lotus and MGP, MCL, Ferrari. If the window problem was not there, they would all be in one bigger group. And that would be more interesting I think.
Bigger tyre working window will mean less lottery.

Edited by ivand911, 24 April 2012 - 10:51.


#579 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:56

This, http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
and this,


Just a couple of (modern) examples. And you know what, people look back at that and don't even think about the tyres and the role they played, just the the great driving.

Or this
and
<=======Impossible today

Edited by fieraku, 24 April 2012 - 10:57.


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#580 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:01

The one they are on the edge and pushing 100%


that never happened -we never saw that kind F1 -it is your fantasy. Maybe, maybe only in 2004 drivers pushed like hell -but was it good season? Sure it was for MS and Scuderia Ferrari. But for everyone else spectators included it wasnt.

Before that cars usually broke down before checquered flag if pushed 100% through the race

look at the atrition rate nowadays. Everybody finishes!!!! Except if they crash or simulate problems if out of points only to change gearbox w/o penalty

So with durable tyres like the ones in 2010 -just imagine the boredom that would be. Vettet lwould be leading wdc with 100 pts in the bag, webbo would be second with 80

do you want that? do you?

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 11:02.


#581 rhukkas

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:06

Pirelli tyres have done exactly what they were supposed to do - give an illusion of real racing. Same with DRS.

Most people don't know anything about hard proper racing. All they see is cars overtaking. Most 'fans' of F1 aren't hardcore fans, so all f1 has to do is please them.



#582 Pits

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:06

I agree totally with Schumacher and Rosberg's complains, the current Pirelli's are a disaster. It's like watching an American Show Wrestle match while you want to see a great boksing fight. It took away everything F1 should stand for, hardcore racing on the limit of the car and driver. Now it's racing on the limit of a terrible tire which is a lot lower than the limit of the rest. I think it's a matter of time before other drivers and teams will speak up.

Further more, this is also not very interessting for the (brand) constructeurs, building a great car is absolutly no garantee for a great season. Every race a different winner is the optimum of artifical racing imo. And it loses it's commercial value.

Fan's who enjoy this I don't understand, this is not F1 as it is supposed to be and it's making a joke of a sport I've been watching for almost 20 years now.

#583 rhukkas

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:10

I agree totally with Schumacher and Rosberg's complains, the current Pirelli's are a disaster. It's like watching an American Show Wrestle match while you want to see a great boksing fight. It took away everything F1 should stand for, hardcore racing on the limit of the car and driver. Now it's racing on the limit of a terrible tire which is a lot lower than the limit of the rest. I think it's a matter of time before other drivers and teams will speak up.

Further more, this is also not very interessting for the (brand) constructeurs, building a great car is absolutly no garantee for a great season. Every race a different winner is the optimum of artifical racing imo. And it loses it's commercial value.

Fan's who enjoy this I don't understand, this is not F1 as it is supposed to be and it's making a joke of a sport I've been watching for almost 20 years now.


BUT F1 has to please the masses, and most people aren't hardcore fans. F1 can quite happily lose its hardcore appeal to go for the mass-market.

I don't like modern F1, its just terrible. But on the whole the tyres do their job exactly as the FIA/FOM wanted them to.

#584 ivand911

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:11

So with durable tyres like the ones in 2010 -just imagine the boredom that would be. Vettet lwould be leading wdc with 100 pts in the bag, webbo would be second with 80

do you want that? do you?

We don't know who have the best car yet. Because of the tyres. There could be other guys leading. But, I know we would have seen more overtaking attempts with DRS and KERS. We will see chasing's. Not stationary car gaps.


#585 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:12

Fan's who enjoy this I don't understand, this is not F1 as it is supposed to be and it's making a joke of a sport I've been watching for almost 20 years now.


it never was a sport actually, well not in the past 30 years. It was sport in 50s and 60s -and it wasnt even called formula 1 in those days but grand prix racing

if you want sport than watch some obscure formula vee races -those guys push like hell

F1 is show. take it or leave it

#586 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:13

Why?Why?Why? For what purpose? To see what? To achieve what? Who can drive slower?

Why not just do it like NASCAR with BS yellow flag cautions?It's more honest because the bunching up is fake but the Racing is REAL.

In F1 everything is FAKE now.

Yes it is all fake. F1 is highly regulated. Of course the reason for this is that a decision was made in 1994 that in modern F1 it is unacceptable to watch the most fearless heroes die on the track, in front of tens of millions of people.

If it wasn't for the regulations that make it fake, how fast would the cars be going these days ? How big would the run-off points and gravel traps have to be in order to maintain some kind of safety ? How many of the drivers would have died or crippled themselves in the last twenty years ? Would Eddie Irvine have died in Eau Rouge ? Would M Schumacher have crippled himself in Silverstone ? And his brother in America, or Kubica in Canada ?
Without fear and any regulation, F1 would not be pretty. The main reason for the regulations is to slow the cars down. That was Max's struggle for well over ten years, to keep the cars down to an acceptable speed. It's a constant fight between the FIA and the teams. This is modern F1.

#587 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:18

Yes it is all fake. F1 is highly regulated. Of course the reason for this is that a decision was made in 1994 that in modern F1 it is unacceptable to watch the most fearless heroes die on the track, in front of tens of millions of people.

If it wasn't for the regulations that make it fake, how fast would the cars be going these days ? How big would the run-off points and gravel traps have to be in order to maintain some kind of safety ? How many of the drivers would have died or crippled themselves in the last twenty years ? Would Eddie Irvine have died in Eau Rouge ? Would M Schumacher have crippled himself in Silverstone ? And his brother in America, or Kubica in Canada ?
Without fear and any regulation, F1 would not be pretty. The main reason for the regulations is to slow the cars down. That was Max's struggle for well over ten years, to keep the cars down to an acceptable speed. It's a constant fight between the FIA and the teams. This is modern F1.


it was a miracle really that kubica didnt cripple himself in canada. his feet were exposed. Just as was miracle that stan fox sustanined absolutely non leg injury in his indy 500 1995 shunt also with legs exposed. only head suffered.

so it was just pure luck for kubica in canada

also do you remember what alesi was saying in february 1994 -that it is absolutly impossible for driver geting killed in F1 car.

Do not think we have absolute safety. Driver can die anytime anywhere

Senna died because he had no luck. no bone was broken, had that suspension flew only centimeters to the right. Ayrton would be alive today

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 11:19.


#588 Dunder

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:25

Or this
and
<=======Impossible today


Rosed coloured spectacles.

Imola 2005 came about wholly because the Bridgestone was much faster at that stage of the race than the Michelin. For most of the year, one tyre (Michelin) had a significant advantage over the other in individual races and the racing was as dull as dishwater. There is a reason those tyre regulations (no tyre changes permitted without penalty) lasted ONE season.

We might not have seen as much wheel to wheel action (product of the track) but in terms of drivers pushing their equipment, I thought Barcelona 2011 was quite revealing. Do we think that Vettel and Hamilton were "driving to delta" there? If so why were their deltas 0.6-0.7 seconds faster than those of their team mates late in the race.

The idea that these Pirelli's fall apart after 3 or 4 laps of being pushed/ragged is patently false particularly as the fuel load comes down.

They have a very stiff construction, the compounds do not adhere to the road very well (thus rubber does not get laid down readily and we get 'chunks' rather than 'marbles') and the layer of compund rubber is very thin (just 2.5mm). These attributes inevitably lead to a reduced potential for tyre slip and this is why 'pushing' results in a wear penalty which exceeds the laptime benefit compared to 'nursing'.

I personally don't like that and would prefer that equation to be more balanced but it is no worse (IMHO) than we had in 2010 when the equation was tilted too far the other way.

The biggest issue this year has been that the optimal temperature window has been narrowed. This is a product of design, not an accident, and I would focus my displeasure with Pirelli on that rather than the rapid degradation (which is what they were asked to do).

Edited by Dunder, 24 April 2012 - 11:31.


#589 Pits

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:26

it never was a sport actually, well not in the past 30 years. It was sport in 50s and 60s -and it wasnt even called formula 1 in those days but grand prix racing

if you want sport than watch some obscure formula vee races -those guys push like hell

F1 is show. take it or leave it


Don't agree with you on that one, sorry.
It is motorsport, and it's supposed to be top off the line.

#590 MilesDavis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:28

Don't agree with you on that one, sorry.
It is motorsport, and it's supposed to be top off the line.


yes it is supposed, but it isnt

its a show, owned by and ruled by a moneymaker

if it was a sport -shouldnt it be included in olympics???? -irony here, but I hope that you get the piont

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 11:29.


#591 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:32

it was a miracle really that kubica didnt cripple himself in canada. his feet were exposed. Just as was miracle that stan fox sustanined absolutely non leg injury in his indy 500 1995 shunt also with legs exposed. only head suffered.

so it was just pure luck for kubica in canada

also do you remember what alesi was saying in february 1994 -that it is absolutly impossible for driver geting killed in F1 car.

Do not think we have absolute safety. Driver can die anytime anywhere

Senna died because he had no luck. no bone was broken, had that suspension flew only centimeters to the right. Ayrton would be alive today

I don't see what your point is. If Imola 94 hadn't happened, something else would have happened later that season or in the following years to come. My point is that 20 years ago we reached the point where F1 had to become fake, and regulated. Complaining about F1 being fake today seems a bit late to me and frankly rather blinkered. With modern technology, while there are live drivers in the car, all forms of motorsport have to be regulated, and therefore 'fake'.

#592 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:34

that never happened -we never saw that kind F1 -it is your fantasy. Maybe, maybe only in 2004 drivers pushed like hell -but was it good season? Sure it was for MS and Scuderia Ferrari. But for everyone else spectators included it wasnt.

Before that cars usually broke down before checquered flag if pushed 100% through the race

look at the atrition rate nowadays. Everybody finishes!!!! Except if they crash or simulate problems if out of points only to change gearbox w/o penalty

So with durable tyres like the ones in 2010 -just imagine the boredom that would be. Vettet lwould be leading wdc with 100 pts in the bag, webbo would be second with 80

do you want that? do you?

Yes I do :wave: 80% of Boxing matches are boring.100% of WWE matches are exciting. One is real the other NOT.
More than 70% of Football matches are boring,yet it's the #1 Sport Worldwide.

Exactly!Everyone finishes because it's not racing but cruising on cheese roll tires,nobody sweats anymore.

Everyone complained of Trulli trains.What about Pirelli trains?

#593 EvanRainer

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:35

Look, I will agree that tires should be more predictable and of better quality.

That said tire management will always be a part of the game. There should absolutely, 100% be different compounds to choose from. If one driver wants to drive balls out all race that's their choice. Another driver should at least have the option to use a softer, faster compound that will allow him to go twice as fast but only half the distance.

All these threads and discussions are for the most part a product of fanboyism. Hamilton and Macca fanboys crying because Hamilton lacks the skill to do tyre management and Macca has a problem with tyres in the last race. Schumacher complains about the tyres and suddenly the Schumi fanboys are out of the woodwork to complain.



#594 valachus

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:40

The idea that these Pirelli's fall apart after 3 or 4 laps of being pushed/ragged is patently false particularly as the fuel load comes down.

I'm having an increasingly particular hard time believing that some posts, such as this above here, are made by actual fans of the sport and not by employees paid specifically to this purpose.
Now, who should I believe? You, or the qualification stats and TV broadcasts, which, since Barcelona last year, show teams choosing NOT TO GO OUT AT ALL ON TRACK IN Q3 for the precise purpose of getting a bigger advantage from a tyre only 3 laps fresher than the ones on the cars which went out to qualify, than from, say, placing 2-3-4 places higher on the grid at the start. Questions, questions.

Edited by valachus, 24 April 2012 - 11:45.


#595 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:43

I don't see what your point is. If Imola 94 hadn't happened, something else would have happened later that season or in the following years to come. My point is that 20 years ago we reached the point where F1 had to become fake, and regulated. Complaining about F1 being fake today seems a bit late to me and frankly rather blinkered. With modern technology, while there are live drivers in the car, all forms of motorsport have to be regulated, and therefore 'fake'.


Rubbish.

Is boxing fake because they wear gloves?
Is Karting fake because they wear helmets?
Is climbing Everest fake because they use ropes?


Don't confuse safety measures with fakeness. It is a silly argument. Making tyres that turn F1 into a lottery is fake and is absolutely nothing to do with regulating a sport to make it safer.

If you are going to argue a point at least make it sensible.

#596 SuperSoft

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:47

That said tire management will always be a part of the game. There should absolutely, 100% be different compounds to choose from. If one driver wants to drive balls out all race that's their choice. Another driver should at least have the option to use a softer, faster compound that will allow him to go twice as fast but only half the distance.

All these threads and discussions are for the most part a product of fanboyism. Hamilton and Macca fanboys crying because Hamilton lacks the skill to do tyre management and Macca has a problem with tyres in the last race. Schumacher complains about the tyres and suddenly the Schumi fanboys are out of the woodwork to complain.


Do you have two personalities? or was your post written by two people?

Your first paragraphs appears to agree with the posters on this thread complaining.

Your second calls them all fanboys.

Which is it?

#597 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:51

Rosed coloured spectacles.

Imola 2005 came about wholly because the Bridgestone was much faster at that stage of the race than the Michelin. For most of the year, one tyre (Michelin) had a significant advantage over the other in individual races and the racing was as dull as dishwater. There is a reason those tyre regulations (no tyre changes permitted without penalty) lasted ONE season.

We might not have seen as much wheel to wheel action (product of the track) but in terms of drivers pushing their equipment, I thought Barcelona 2011 was quite revealing. Do we think that Vettel and Hamilton were "driving to delta" there? If so why were their deltas 0.6-0.7 seconds faster than those of their team mates late in the race.


The idea that these Pirelli's fall apart after 3 or 4 laps of being pushed/ragged is patently false particularly as the fuel load comes down.

They have a very stiff construction, the compounds do not adhere to the road very well (thus rubber does not get laid down readily and we get 'chunks' rather than 'marbles') and the layer of compund rubber is very thin (just 2.5mm). These attributes inevitably lead to a reduced potential for tyre slip and this is why 'pushing' results in a wear penalty which exceeds the laptime benefit compared to 'nursing'.

I personally don't like that and would prefer that equation to be more balanced but it is no worse (IMHO) than we had in 2010 when the equation was tilted too far the other way.

The biggest issue this year has been that the optimal temperature window has been narrowed. This is a product of design, not an accident, and I would focus my displeasure with Pirelli on that rather than the rapid degradation (which is what they were asked to do).

And you simply need glasses! 2011/=2012 :wave:

Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery said:

"We have had to make changes and the objective of those changes is to make the racing closer," Hembery told reporters at a launch event in Abu Dhabi.

“Only the super soft tyre is the same compound as last year: the other compounds are softer and therefore faster, designed to encourage closer racing as well as a wider variety of strategies.”


Pirelli president Marco Tronchetti Provera said: "These changes will provide more opportunity for passes, and help make a better show. Our tires will be a bit softer, which will add speed and show."

2012 F1 has NOTHING to do with Racing.

Edited by fieraku, 24 April 2012 - 11:53.


#598 fieraku

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:59

Yes it is all fake. F1 is highly regulated. Of course the reason for this is that a decision was made in 1994 that in modern F1 it is unacceptable to watch the most fearless heroes die on the track, in front of tens of millions of people.

If it wasn't for the regulations that make it fake, how fast would the cars be going these days ? How big would the run-off points and gravel traps have to be in order to maintain some kind of safety ? How many of the drivers would have died or crippled themselves in the last twenty years ? Would Eddie Irvine have died in Eau Rouge ? Would M Schumacher have crippled himself in Silverstone ? And his brother in America, or Kubica in Canada ?
Without fear and any regulation, F1 would not be pretty. The main reason for the regulations is to slow the cars down. That was Max's struggle for well over ten years, to keep the cars down to an acceptable speed. It's a constant fight between the FIA and the teams. This is modern F1.


Whut???? :confused:

Deliberately making crap tires to encourage closer(fake)Racing to improve the "Show" has nothing to do with safety. Nooooooothing.
Nice try.

Actually it's more dangerous :wave:

Edited by fieraku, 24 April 2012 - 12:00.


#599 Dunder

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:07

And you simply need glasses! 2011/=2012 :wave:


Maybe you missed this part.

These attributes inevitably lead to a reduced potential for tyre slip and this is why 'pushing' results in a wear penalty which exceeds the laptime benefit compared to 'nursing'.

I personally don't like that and would prefer that equation to be more balanced but it is no worse (IMHO) than we had in 2010 when the equation was tilted too far the other way.

The biggest issue this year has been that the optimal temperature window has been narrowed. This is a product of design, not an accident, and I would focus my displeasure with Pirelli on that rather than the rapid degradation (which is what they were asked to do).


You highlighted a clip from 2005 as showing how good the tyre regulations were back then. I disagree strongly with that. I am not saying that 2011 was perfect, far from it and I agree that 2012 has thrown in another unnecessary variable.

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#600 Tardis40

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:07

Rubbish.


Making tyres that turn F1 into a lottery is fake


So is the adjustable rear wing.

Bring back good tires, get rid of DRS and KERS.