Jump to content


Photo

Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


  • Please log in to reply
1346 replies to this topic

#601 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:21

that never happened -we never saw that kind F1 -it is your fantasy. Maybe, maybe only in 2004 drivers pushed like hell -but was it good season? Sure it was for MS and Scuderia Ferrari. But for everyone else spectators included it wasnt.

Before that cars usually broke down before checquered flag if pushed 100% through the race

look at the atrition rate nowadays. Everybody finishes!!!! Except if they crash or simulate problems if out of points only to change gearbox w/o penalty

So with durable tyres like the ones in 2010 -just imagine the boredom that would be. Vettet lwould be leading wdc with 100 pts in the bag, webbo would be second with 80

do you want that? do you?


All the points you are trying to make are actually arguments against pancake Pirellis.


The super low and undramatic attrition rate nowadays is partly because the cars are driven well within the limits of what they can achieve so nothing really is extended. The test rig probably stresses the parts way more than a GP race.

Your point about 2010 tires is fantasy, compare 2010 with the durable tires and 2011 with Pirellis, which championship was more exciting????

RB had a fast car in 2010, but they had to push to make it count...the car broke down a couple of times, other times other drivers pushing 100% made them make mistakes or made the diff. and got the win.

in 2011, what happened?...everybody started driving purely within the limit of the tires and Vettel cruised all the way.

It wasn't all down to tires sure, but it played a major part.

in 2008 and 2007, we had Bridgestones, but still had the closest WDC battles and most exciting seasons of the last decades or so including some truly awesome races.

The regs already make sure the cars will be close together especially now that flexy wings and EBD overruns are banned. They are the main thing that creates exciting close racing, like we had in 07, 08,09,2010. Top drivers pushing most of the time and making the extra difference.

The novelty of the Pirellis and wacky races is now gone and fans/drivers are starting to realize just how unfulfilling and gimmicky the whole thing is nowadays.

The only time top drivers earn their salary is in qualifying. Rosbergs comments to JB after his China win was probably cos of that, he expected his first GP win to be special knowing he actually did something special on track...but dude was like "this was all rather easy, I got a good start and managed my tires all the way" which is basically all that is required now.

Get a good start, manage your tires...if the car lucks in to the right race day temperatures, it should be a bit quicker than others, then you'd get a good result...if not, sorry next time..hopefully you get good strategy and pitstops and can do some damage limitation.

The novelty of the unpredictability may have been fun at first, but thankfully we are beginning to realize it is rubbish. This is not what F1 has been about, this is not what an elite sport should be about, and this is not what elite sportsmen should be about.

It is like trying to engineer tennis balls, basketballs, golf balls or footballs into something more unpredictable and much less than ideal so that Djokovic, Messi, Kobe Bryant and co would not be able to dominate as much as they used to and the lottery created can now make less talented counterparts have some shine.

Yes, I know F1 historically tinkers around with equipment and rules more than other sports, but we've always accepted the engineering challenges of building a fast car are part of what the sport is about...and the track and tires would always allow for the cars and drivers to flourish to a solid extent. These are the basic requirements, just like a tennis court and a tennis ball, bball court and ball, soccer pitch and ball etc

These are never expected to supersede teams or players and become the main reason for excitement or determinant for championships, that would be super plastic and fake....and it indeed is (which is why tire wars is also wrong)

Tires that you cannot properly race on for more than one lap without losing serious performance are not racing tires.

It is a now a fact that drivers drive flatout more in an endurance race like LeMans than in an F1 race. How the hell can that be right????

Can it be ok for long-distance runner to exert more energy and skill over 200meters in a 5km run than 200meter specialists in a 200 meter race?

What would be the point of having Bolt, Micheal Johnson and co run a 200m race if they would be forced to jog for 180 meters because their running boots can only sustain a 20 meter sprint (if such thing ever existed :) )?

or would it be ok to have table tennis balls you cannot smash with because they would break and you would lose a point?

This is exactly the scenario the current Pirelli tires introduce to F1. Drivers came up in karting, junior formula etc learning how to extract the max from their equipment, how to push consistently, take corners at max speed possible, overtake etc only to come to F1 to be told
"chill chill chill...you know where you would normally brake? Yes, brake 10 meters earlier if you want to finish this race and have a good result" and so on.

This whole gimmick with super degrading and unpredictable tires is absolutely no worse than having shortcuts, sprinklers and so on on the track. As a matter of fact, you could argue something like a sprinkler creates more of a challenge for drivers hence has more credibility than pancake tires.

I sincerely hope Rosberg and Schumi's comments are the beginning of a serious movement that will turn the sport around from this ridiculous path it has chosen (shame on you M.Whitmarsh and co for championing this bulls**t)

Edited by bauss, 24 April 2012 - 12:23.


Advertisement

#602 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 1,481 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:26

I guess we are lucky we are not racing at indy anymore. It seems those Michelins in 2005 would still be better at coping with that corner than the Pirellis of 2012.

#603 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:27

Maybe you missed this part.



You highlighted a clip from 2005 as showing how good the tyre regulations were back then. I disagree strongly with that. I am not saying that 2011 was perfect, far from it and I agree that 2012 has thrown in another unnecessary variable.

Far from it,regulations can never be perfect and never have, but from 1994 until 2010 I saw F1 cars and pilots RACE,as in that clip.

Pirellis are constructed for different reasons.Can you or anyone here find me one comment from Pirelli that states "We're trying to produce the BEST tires possible" just one.Double dare.

I miss when the talk from the tire companies was:We're trying to achieve the Best grip,performance,wear from tires,the BEST and nothing short of.



#604 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:28

Having overtakes on every second corner is not racing, an overtake is worth as much as it is hard to make it. That's the reason some are still remembered long time back.
"It's not the kill, it's the trill of the chase."
Like they say here if I may take the liberty to make a small salutation to real racing fans.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


#605 Octavian

Octavian
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:29

The unpredictable tyres are akin to giving golfers unpredictable balls to hit to liven up the show. It's false and whilst it may liven up the show for the knucklehead casual fans for the purists it really is quite boring!

#606 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:29

in 2008 and 2007, we had Bridgestones, but still had the closest WDC battles and most exciting seasons of the last decades or so including some truly awesome races.


oh really. in 2007 and 2008 people were saying it was FABRICATED

people say FIA gave Kimi 2007 title after coughlan-stepney gate

and than gave 2008 title to Lewis to level tihings up

Is your memory realyl that short. Or was it that yesterdays grass was always greener than todays grass

come on. this is F1 there have always been shennigans and gates of all kinds. what about mass damper, what about michelin gate in 2003

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 12:30.


#607 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:36

oh really. in 2007 and 2008 people were saying it was FABRICATED

people say FIA gave Kimi 2007 title after coughlan-stepney gate

and than gave 2008 title to Lewis to level tihings up

Is your memory realyl that short. Or was it that yesterdays grass was always greener than todays grass

come on. this is F1 there have always been shennigans and gates of all kinds. what about mass damper, what about michelin gate in 2003


really, this is your argument against 2007 and 2008....outlandish conspiracy theories?

Yep, you really have no point which is understandable given the side you are arguing

#608 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,961 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:42

Yeah, I can see how Lewis was helped in 2008 by recieving grid penalties in Sepang and France and also the time penalty at Spa! Not to mention Massa getting away form everything from unsafe release at Valencia to bumping Bourdais off the road at Japan after bumping no other than Lewis himself in the same race. :up:

#609 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:45

oh really. in 2007 and 2008 people were saying it was FABRICATED

people say FIA gave Kimi 2007 title after coughlan-stepney gate

and than gave 2008 title to Lewis to level tihings up

Is your memory realyl that short. Or was it that yesterdays grass was always greener than todays grass

come on. this is F1 there have always been shennigans and gates of all kinds. what about mass damper, what about michelin gate in 2003


What has any of that got to do with the topic of this thread? (and besides anyone who thinks that Lewis was handed the title in 2008 is a loon). This is not a gate. This is the people who run this sport conspiring to turn it into a popular, x-factor, dancing with the stars, type of stupid entertainment package for stupid people who like to go gaga for the nice coloured cars overtaking each other.

Anyone who thinks this is Formula One needs to stop and try and remember what attracted them to this sport in the first place.

Why did they make a film about Senna? Was it because he nursed his tyres the best? I bet you I could watch that film again tonight, frame by frame, and never see tyres mentioned once. What I will see mentioned however is words like 'courage' 'speed' 'intelligence' 'skill' and 'breathtaking' - how many of those words has been used so far to describe this season?




#610 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:46

Far from it,regulations can never be perfect and never have, but from 1994 until 2010 I saw F1 cars and pilots RACE,as in that clip.

Pirellis are constructed for different reasons.Can you or anyone here find me one comment from Pirelli that states "We're trying to produce the BEST tires possible" just one.Double dare.

I miss when the talk from the tire companies was:We're trying to achieve the Best grip,performance,wear from tires,the BEST and nothing short of.


Quite clearly they are not trying to produce the best tyres possible, indeed they have explicitly stated that they are not.
It is a control tyre at the end of the day.

Bridgestone likewise did not produce the best possible tyre from 2007-2010. They erred on the side of durability (maybe wisely) to avoid the negative publicity that comes with producing "pancake tyres" or "tyres made of cheese".

If we want the best possible tyres then we have to go back to the tyre war days and that, is just not going to happen.

You have a preference for tyres where the penalty for exerting additional load is less than the benefit in terms of laptime. That's fine. I would prefer tyres where it is more balanced that that. Not the 'excessive' degradation that we have today and not the 'excessive' durability that we had during the Bridgestone period.


#611 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:49

oh really. in 2007 and 2008 people were saying it was FABRICATED

people say FIA gave Kimi 2007 title after coughlan-stepney gate

and than gave 2008 title to Lewis to level tihings up

Is your memory realyl that short. Or was it that yesterdays grass was always greener than todays grass

come on. this is F1 there have always been shennigans and gates of all kinds. what about mass damper, what about michelin gate in 2003

:rotfl:

At least the results were fabricated AFTER the fact and RACING was real.

#612 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:56

You have a preference for tyres where the penalty for exerting additional load is less than the benefit in terms of laptime. That's fine. I would prefer tyres where it is more balanced that that. Not the 'excessive' degradation that we have today and not the 'excessive' durability that we had during the Bridgestone period.


This.

Just to add that what I really want to see is a tyre that will allow Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber and all the other talented drivers to actually start racing each other again. I want to see cars being pushed to their limits, I want to see mistakes, I want to see retirements, I want to see incidents and I want to see ballsy overtaking manoeuvres that only an idiot, or Lewis Hamilton would dare make. I want to see drivers climb out of their cars looking like they are ready to pass out, their hair soaked in sweat and their helmets full of puke. I want to see a commercial for Formula One that talks about the best drivers in the world and actually believe it. I want my son to watch Formula One and feel the same excitement and buzz I felt when I first got hooked by this sport.

Is this honestly too much to expect?

Just give me tyres (and cars) that can make this possible and I will never complain about anything again.

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 12:57.


#613 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:09

Quite clearly they are not trying to produce the best tyres possible, indeed they have explicitly stated that they are not.
It is a control tyre at the end of the day.

Bridgestone likewise did not produce the best possible tyre from 2007-2010. They erred on the side of durability (maybe wisely) to avoid the negative publicity that comes with producing "pancake tyres" or "tyres made of cheese".

If we want the best possible tyres then we have to go back to the tyre war days and that, is just not going to happen.

You have a preference for tyres where the penalty for exerting additional load is less than the benefit in terms of laptime. That's fine. I would prefer tyres where it is more balanced that that. Not the 'excessive' degradation that we have today and not the 'excessive' durability that we had during the Bridgestone period.

I prefer tires that separate men from the boys and the drivers that can squeeze that extra tenth or two by driving to the absolute limit aren't punished but actually rewarded.

Now we have SPEC drivers on a leash and whomever lucks the Pirellotto is that week's best. Perez one week God the next average and nowhere ,Grosejan 3 weeks WTF last race WDC ready,Nico goes from looking like a 3time champ to an all time chump.

Just about any driver can win now with the optimal (lucky) setup since everyone else has to stay within the Pirelli Delta and can do nothing about it.

#614 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,797 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:12

Here's my take, the drivers are paid zillions of dollars a year to drive the world's most high tech racing machines. They are the elite of the elite. They have teams that employ engineers who are amongst the most highly talented on the planet. Pirelli has made a tyre, that btw many of the drivers were praising in the off season, needs management by the driver in order for him to extract the maximum potetntial out of it. Between these highly paid and talented drivers and their engineers they should get on with the job at hand and quit bitching and moaning that they can't "race" at 100%. So f***ing what? I for one have enjoyed immensly the first 4 races of the season. The show has been good, much more enjoyable to watch than a one man show race after race after race. And quite frankly these highly paid prima donnas who are complaining are no different than the highly paid prima donnas of years' past who complained about this and that.

#615 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:28

Here's my take, the drivers are paid zillions of dollars a year to drive the world's most high tech racing machines. They are the elite of the elite. They have teams that employ engineers who are amongst the most highly talented on the planet. Pirelli has made a tyre, that btw many of the drivers were praising in the off season, needs management by the driver in order for him to extract the maximum potetntial out of it. Between these highly paid and talented drivers and their engineers they should get on with the job at hand and quit bitching and moaning that they can't "race" at 100%. So f***ing what? I for one have enjoyed immensly the first 4 races of the season. The show has been good, much more enjoyable to watch than a one man show race after race after race. And quite frankly these highly paid prima donnas who are complaining are no different than the highly paid prima donnas of years' past who complained about this and that.


Why did you start watching F1? :confused: I don't get it.
Because if we go back not long enough 80s-90s the leading driver being 30 seconds up the field and lapping about everyone else was a common occurrence.
F1 has NEVER been about "your version" of racing,NEVER EVER.

#616 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:35

Why did you start watching F1? :confused: I don't get it.
Because if we go back not long enough 80s-90s the leading driver being 30 seconds up the field and lapping about everyone else was a common occurrence.
F1 has NEVER been about "your version" of racing,NEVER EVER.


exactly. he was lapping entire field while nursing his gearbox, and engine, and tyres. and then in the end he was nursing himself too, because his shoulders was aching. no way he was bombing at 100% during the race. But people here do not understand. they think they were driving on the edge -yeah right!

GV was driving on the edge and look what happened. he was limping to the pits every other race. and we have it today. wasnt maldonado limping the other day?

Edited by MilesDavis, 24 April 2012 - 13:36.


#617 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,797 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:36

Why did you start watching F1? :confused: I don't get it.
Because if we go back not long enough 80s-90s the leading driver being 30 seconds up the field and lapping about everyone else was a common occurrence.
F1 has NEVER been about "your version" of racing,NEVER EVER.


You completely failed to understand my point. I said I have enjoyed the first 4 races of the season and that it has been more enjoyable for me than one driver dominating race after race. And let me tell you one more thing, I've been watching F1 since the early 1960s and have probably attended more races than you've watched on tv so don't try an lecture me on F1.

Edited by MightyMoose, 24 April 2012 - 14:43.
Removed: Where do get off with this 'your version' shit?


#618 rhukkas

rhukkas
  • Member

  • 2,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:37

Here's my take, the drivers are paid zillions of dollars a year to drive the world's most high tech racing machines. They are the elite of the elite.


eerrrm.... Are you watching the same F1 as me?

They are NOT the elite of the elite, and nor are all the grid even PAID... let alone zillions.

Are you sure you've been watching since the 60s?

Edited by rhukkas, 24 April 2012 - 13:38.


#619 ayali

ayali
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:41

Here's my take, the drivers are paid zillions of dollars a year to drive the world's most high tech racing machines. They are the elite of the elite. They have teams that employ engineers who are amongst the most highly talented on the planet. Pirelli has made a tyre, that btw many of the drivers were praising in the off season, needs management by the driver in order for him to extract the maximum potetntial out of it. Between these highly paid and talented drivers and their engineers they should get on with the job at hand and quit bitching and moaning that they can't "race" at 100%. So f***ing what? I for one have enjoyed immensly the first 4 races of the season. The show has been good, much more enjoyable to watch than a one man show race after race after race. And quite frankly these highly paid prima donnas who are complaining are no different than the highly paid prima donnas of years' past who complained about this and that.

Exactly :up:

Advertisement

#620 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:41

wasn't McNish regarded as an elite driver. And he cant even heel and toe

it is hard to tell who is elite driver, since they do not have clutch pedal anymore

Edited by MightyMoose, 24 April 2012 - 14:44.
Removed: Deleted quote


#621 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:42

exactly. he was lapping entire field while nursing his gearbox, and engine, and tyres. and then in the end he was nursing himself too, because his shoulders was aching. no way he was bombing at 100% during the race. But people here do not understand. they think they were driving on the edge -yeah right!


No. Nobody thinks that. You clearly have a comprehension problem.

Nobody is "nursing" these tyres in the same manner as skilled drivers would nurse an engine or a gearbox.

"Nursing" is not possible anymore. Every single one of these drivers are told, every lap, what time to do the lap in. They are nursing nothing, they are driving to a computer controlled time in order to finish the race in a computer controlled manner that fingers crossed is slightly faster than everyone else.

Nobody is actually racing each other anymore, they are just hoping that whatever preset program they are racing to is quickest.

Do not not honestly understand this? Read the thread again, read the comments from the drivers and commentators.

You are very much mistaken and your oft quoted comparisons to nursing cars are utterly wrong.

#622 rhukkas

rhukkas
  • Member

  • 2,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:43

You said they are the elite of the elite, which simply isn't true.

F1 is a show... nothing more. And it's as brutal as that. Pirelli tyres actively punch proper racing in return for an illusion of racing. 90% of people that watch F1 haven't got the foggiest clue what on earth they are watching. An overtake is 'an overtake' to them. The FIA and FOM are feeding these braindead morons exactly what they wanted... AND you can not blame them at all.

The only way you can change anything is for once (directed at the moaners like me) is wake up, realise there are other motorsports out there that in essence are better than F1. I would even go as far as to say 'better drivers'. Enjoy them as much as you enjoy F1.

#623 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:48

No. Nobody thinks that. You clearly have a comprehension problem.

Nobody is "nursing" these tyres in the same manner as skilled drivers would nurse an engine or a gearbox.

"Nursing" is not possible anymore. Every single one of these drivers are told, every lap, what time to do the lap in. They are nursing nothing, they are driving to a computer controlled time in order to finish the race in a computer controlled manner that fingers crossed is slightly faster than everyone else.

Nobody is actually racing each other anymore, they are just hoping that whatever preset program they are racing to is quickest.

Do not not honestly understand this? Read the thread again, read the comments from the drivers and commentators.

You are very much mistaken and your oft quoted comparisons to nursing cars are utterly wrong.


That is just nonsense.


#624 rhukkas

rhukkas
  • Member

  • 2,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:49

That is just nonsense.


How can it be nonsense when it's echoing exactly what a 7x WDC has come out with as well as his team mate... and Hamilton too.

#625 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:51

so the main argument against better tires is that one driver is not dominating and that is exciting?

God save us if other sports decide this is good enough reason to tinker with fundamentals of their discipline

F1 is supposed to be the sport showcasing the fastest drivers in the fastest racing cars...not the best tire conserving drivers in the fastest cars

What we have now is not F1, it is something else.

Ping Pong or Tennis where you can't hit the ball harder than a particular speed else it breaks and you lose a point so that the best cannot be dominant is no longer Ping Pong/Tennis

#626 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:54

so the main argument against better tires is that one driver is not dominating and that is exciting?

God save us if other sports decide this is good enough reason to tinker with fundamentals of their discipline

F1 is supposed to be the sport showcasing the fastest drivers in the fastest racing cars...not the best tire conserving drivers in the fastest cars

What we have now is not F1, it is something else.

Ping Pong or Tennis where you can't hit the ball harder than a particular speed else it breaks and you lose a point so that the best cannot be dominant is no longer Ping Pong/Tennis


do not worry someone will unlock the tyre mystery and will become dominant guy

Mercedes did it in cool conditions, but not in hot

Now they may think that they have the best car so noy they want durable tyre so that they can win in hot conditions too

and it is much cheaper to moan than to spend your resources on fiuging out how to unlock the tyres

#627 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:56

That is just nonsense.


But of course it is nonsense, that is the whole point. It doesn't stop it happening though.

And while it is nonsense it actually is the most logical way to deal with these tyres. Put yourself in the shoes of a team Racing Director, faced with tyres that fall of a cliff whenever they are pushed, faced with a very short supply of said tyres, faced with a need to complete a race and only change tyres 2 or 3 times. What is your decision? Tell the drivers to go out there and race and try to protect their tyres or do you work out a computer program to tell you exactly what speed each car should be travelling on each and every lap to make the tyres make the distance.

Now, which one sounds the most logical?

For the teams it isn't nonsense really is it? If they are not doing it they are fools.

#628 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:57

How can it be nonsense when it's echoing exactly what a 7x WDC has come out with as well as his team mate... and Hamilton too.


Have a listen to the radio comms. during the race and you will see that it is not the case.

Schumacher asked in Bahrain (about half way through the second stint) where he was losing time to Rosberg (he was advised it was in T10). Is that representative of drive to a moving delta? Hamilton was receiving frequent updates where he was gaining/losing time to Button and the Ferraris.

Mercedes do not like these tyres and it good that they spark some debate rather than the Pirelli lovefest that public statements made so have have implied but "like driving behind the safety car" and "driving to a delta" are gross exaggerations that belie what these drivers/teams are actually saying during the race.


#629 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:57

Mercedes did it in cool conditions, but not in hot


Explain Nico's pole lap in China that only came about because he set it early before the track got cooler.

#630 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:00

Explain Nico's pole lap in China that only came about because he set it early before the track got cooler.


he sat it in cool conditions, than came cooler conditions -it is different

if tehy are fast in lets say 10 degree celsius, they do not neceserrily have to be fast at 8 degree

point is they have to find out setups for all conditions

and that is expensive and tricky because of limited tests


#631 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:02

Explain Nico's pole lap in China that only came about because he set it early before the track got cooler.

The track was cooling, already 3 degrees down IIRC. That's enough for the current tyres.

#632 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:02

point is they have to find out setups for all conditions

and that is expensive and tricky because of limited tests


It is impossible because the conditions on Sunday are rarely the same conditions as Saturday, and with the window being so small they will always be screwed. Hence why it is all down to luck whether you have the tyres working in the race, that and getting grid position.

This could all be solved by Sunday morning practice and no parc ferme.

#633 MilesDavis

MilesDavis
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:05

This could all be solved by Sunday morning practice and no parc ferme.


finally some constructive proposition :up:

#634 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:05

It is impossible because the conditions on Sunday are rarely the same conditions as Saturday, and with the window being so small they will always be screwed. Hence why it is all down to luck whether you have the tyres working in the race, that and getting grid position.

This could all be solved by Sunday morning practice and no parc ferme.

Right. But knowing how things work in contemporary F1 are we to expect heaters and coolers integrated into the suspension? :)

#635 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:07

Right. But knowing how things work in contemporary F1 are we to expect heaters and coolers integrated into the suspension? :)


I would be surprised if Red Bull already don't. And I am not joking.

#636 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:10

But of course it is nonsense, that is the whole point. It doesn't stop it happening though.

And while it is nonsense it actually is the most logical way to deal with these tyres. Put yourself in the shoes of a team Racing Director, faced with tyres that fall of a cliff whenever they are pushed, faced with a very short supply of said tyres, faced with a need to complete a race and only change tyres 2 or 3 times. What is your decision? Tell the drivers to go out there and race and try to protect their tyres or do you work out a computer program to tell you exactly what speed each car should be travelling on each and every lap to make the tyres make the distance.

Now, which one sounds the most logical?

For the teams it isn't nonsense really is it? If they are not doing it they are fools.


What you have described is nursing tyres.

If the 'computer program' exitsted that worked out the lap delta - how is it communicated to the driver? We don't hear "Nico, you need to do a 1:32.6, next lap" on the radio. Pit to Car telemetry is banned and if these delta were worked out before the race, they would be useless due to conditions not being known, tracks evolving and race strategies/positions changing.


#637 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:14

You completely failed to understand my point. Where do get off with this 'your version' shit? I said I have enjoyed the first 4 races of the season and that it has been more enjoyable for me than one driver dominating race after race. And let me tell you one more thing, I've been watching F1 since the early 1960s and have probably attended more races than you've watched on tv so don't try an lecture me on F1.


You said F1 drivers are elite of the elite, then Pirelli makes a tire that requires "managing" and they should shut the f*** up with all the whining and get with the program,right?

That doesn't compute.Why would Elite drivers agree to a tire that equals them to GP2 drivers? :confused: How can he show he's ELITE when the equipment doesn't allow it?

You contradict yourself with that post,thus I asked why do you watch F1,it wasn't a loaded question. I watch because of the drivers and the speeds they can drive at and their skills at controlling the car,overtaking and defending at those speeds.

There's nothing Elite about a driver just dragging a car to the finish line with the hope of making it.

#638 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 3,601 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:15

Rubbish.

Is boxing fake because they wear gloves?
Is Karting fake because they wear helmets?
Is climbing Everest fake because they use ropes?


Don't confuse safety measures with fakeness. It is a silly argument. Making tyres that turn F1 into a lottery is fake and is absolutely nothing to do with regulating a sport to make it safer.

If you are going to argue a point at least make it sensible.

So using regulations and artificial means to slow the cars down is not fake in your mind ? The sport has been fake for years and years now. It's a damn circus. That was my point.

Anyway. here is a quote from Gary Anderson from the Beeb website regarding Schumacher's complaints about the tyres.
'When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.
They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.
It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.'

So people want a return to the days when only one competitive team were allowed to use a tyre that was at times miles better than the other one ? How is that situation not fake ? Because of that exclusive COMMERCIAL deal, one team had a massive advantage over all the others. The fact that some teams had their own private testing track, or some teams can spend thrice the money that others can, or others are allowed to break rules but others not, sort of suggests that the sport doesn't present a level playing field to all of the competitors. F1 has been fake for a few decades now. They changed the scoring rules pretty much primarily to stop one certain driver winning so much. People have been manipulating the sport and results for years and years. Why are some fans only coming out of the woodwork because of the tyres ?

#639 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:16

What you have described is nursing tyres.

If the 'computer program' exitsted that worked out the lap delta - how is it communicated to the driver? We don't hear "Nico, you need to do a 1:32.6, next lap" on the radio. Pit to Car telemetry is banned and if these delta were worked out before the race, they would be useless due to conditions not being known, tracks evolving and race strategies/positions changing.

A very simple chronometer or even better - one which is triggered by the S/F line beam crossing is the most simple solution. And I guess there many more.

Advertisement

#640 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:23

A very simple chronometer or even better - one which is triggered by the S/F line beam crossing is the most simple solution. And I guess there many more.


They have in car chronometers that update every 100m or so.

Are we suggesting that target laptimes are being pre-programmed before the race? I can't see that these:

a) are in use
b) would be of any use


#641 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:33

They have in car chronometers that update every 100m or so.

Are we suggesting that target laptimes are being pre-programmed before the race? I can't see that these:

a) are in use
b) would be of any use

I guess "delta time" is an average within given margins. Knowing a target delta until next stop is enough for a driver to pace himself accordingly. The smaller the deviations he does, the better.
And I believe they run an accelerated simulation in real race time back in the computer rooms, based on other cars positions and times, to determine pit stop windows and eventual best positions on rejoining.

Edited by sharo, 24 April 2012 - 14:35.


#642 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,790 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:37

My German is bad, if any.
Seems Haug is not in an agreement with MS
http://www.motorspor..._medium=twitter

#643 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:37

They have in car chronometers that update every 100m or so.

Are we suggesting that target laptimes are being pre-programmed before the race? I can't see that these:

a) are in use
b) would be of any use


There is a quote from last year a few pages back talking about how the skill then was to start each stint a few seconds slower a lap and slowly increase the speed as the tyres wear off, thus keeping a constant speed throughout the stint and making the tyres last as long as possible. I am not sure if the same thing is happening now, but might be. This is exactly the same thing though, it is not racing it is just following a predetermined plan for the race. A plan that was of course fed through a computer, most likely of course from data gained from the simulator.

This weeks race just made it so obvious, that last stint was just awful, there was no racing, everyone just following each other home.

Two year ago Lewis Hamilton would have been trying to get all over the back of Alonso, on Sunday he appeared to not even bother, he just sat there doing his times and trying to make it to the end of the race. Some are saying this shows a new mature Hamilton, that now appears to be rubbish. It is all that he can do because of the tyres.

Why else would the drivers be coming out and saying it?

And don't give me that story that Mercedes are only saying it because they want the tyres changed, Hamilton has supposedly come out and said something very similar and it was McLaren who were the most vocal about wanting the tyres made more unpredictable.

That's what I don't understand, the drivers are saying this is the case and yet there are people who don't believe them.

Edited by SuperSoft, 24 April 2012 - 14:43.


#644 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:43

My German is bad, if any.
Seems Haug is not in an agreement with MS
http://www.motorspor..._medium=twitter


We need to be careful of the politics on both sides in this debate, especially from teams who's main business is building road cars. There are many reasons why someone may not want to get involved in a public spat with a leading tyre manufacturer. There also of course, no doubt, a memo from above reminding all teams that they are not allowed to criticise any supplier/sponsor of F1 in public.

As has been said already when this gets solved we will not be told about it, it will just cease to become news and all of the sudden the tyres are suddenly lasting 20 laps again. It will be put down to early season uncertainty and everyone will be happy.

#645 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:44

I guess "delta time" is an average within given margins. Knowing a target delta until next stop is enough for a driver to pace himself accordingly. The smaller the deviations he does, the better.
And I believe they run an accelerated simulation in real race time back in the computer rooms, based on other cars positions and times, to determine pit stop windows and eventual best positions on rejoining.


Indeed they do but there is no pit-car telemetry allowed so that is cannot be fed to the driver's steering wheel display.

The radio comms. re quite revealing in this respect and the messages being passed are usually quite generic. Along the lines of:

"We need at 5 or 6 laps on these tyres, you need to manage them" or
"We are racing Alonso, you need to push"

Even with the new "Pit Channel" we only hear a fraction of the traffic but there has been nothing to suggest that any sort of delta is in use during races.


#646 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:47

So using regulations and artificial means to slow the cars down is not fake in your mind ?


No, it's not fake.

What is fake is the current situation with the tyres. Drivers who can literally go faster on the track have to hold back throughout the stint because of the cliff-like performance drop off in the tyres. Gone are the days when you can choose to go hell for leather and then nurse the tyres which still have some performance in them for the rest of the stint vs driving more consistently over the stint but still close to the limit. This sort of system allows drivers to be discriminated. The really good ones will float to the top.

In the current system, the average drivers/teams are happy since the very quick ones have their wings clipped so to speak by tyres that have to be handled with excessive care. Why? Their performance doesn't gradually decline, but instead does so dramatically and rather unpredictably when being stressed by on the limit of tyre performance driving. This to me, makes for fake situation 1.

No wonder the field is so bunched up together and no wonder we don't know who will win next race.

Fake situation 2 is created by the utter unpredictability, it would seem, of who will have the tyres working come race day. Not only from team to team, but from driver to driver within the team. So sensitive is the operating window. So when one driver does better than another, we used to bicker about preferential treatment and such vs genuine performance differences. Now, we don't really know what to say. What of Perez's second place? Does that really mean anything??? Was he really heroic that day??? Fake situation 2.

The sport has been fake for years and years now. It's a damn circus. That was my point.


It has always been about who can come up with the quicker package driven by the quicker drivers. It has always been about watching racing where all the cars do not have the same resources put into them or the same partnerships.

However, until now, it has always been about hell for leather racing on the absolute limit, with cars running wide, drivers spinning off, hitting barriers and such because they went over the limit etc. It has always, until now been about discriminating drivers and teams for being out front because of their use of resources and driver abilities to the maximum. Yes, Jordan didn't have the opportunities that Ferrari had with the Bridgestones. However, what of McLaren that year. What resources did they, the main Ferrari contenders have at their disposal to take the fight to Ferrari?

It's now about seeing how best to get these darned tyres to work within a small window of performance 1, and then to hold back with outright pace in the interest of cliff-hanger tyre performance. This is the first I've heard drivers complain that they can't genuinely drive an F1 car really close to its limit on race day when it would have in the past suited them and their race result to do just that. We don't need elite drivers for the current situation.

The farce is jumping for joy that Kimi drove a hell of a race to second or that Grosjean was fabulous to be third. Can we really say that now? No more drives like Kimi's at Suzuka 2005 or Schumi in Hungary 1998 or the Schumi/Hakkinen battle at Suzuka 2000. It's all just tippy-toeing and praying the tyres hold out while going as quickly as possible.

The average drivers and teams are loving the situation. More points for them, isn't it. Less embarrassment and frustration, isn't it? We should be careful justifying the situation by saying that no one is complaining. When the money is on the line, I certainly wouldn't be complaining at Lotus or Ferrari or Sauber if the current situation allowed for a shot at a win or good points. However, Schumi will step up and speak if he knows that he could be doing better if the situation were different.

Edited by ali_M, 24 April 2012 - 14:51.


#647 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 3,601 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:47

Well not only that. But a team owner will know that this season's races are attracting more television viewers which is better for his sponsors and then his team. Schumacher cares only for the racing, a Brawn for the success of the team, the owner for the survival of the whole division, and the promotion of the brand. What does a team owner care if some hardcore fans think the racing is too artificial ? As long as his brand is seen on TV near the front of the pack.

#648 Paco

Paco
  • Member

  • 1,215 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:47

finally some constructive proposition :up:



How is closing Parc Ferme a solution??? You want the grid to revert back to qualifying spec cars on Saturday, teams working all night long to swap out parts to a Race Spec car??? Teams at one point in the early 90's were running whisper thin brake disk and pads, qualifying spec engines, minimal life components to eeek out every last ounce of speed that could be found.

Those were amazing times but also unsustainable budgets. Parc ferme from Saturday to Sunday race time has to remain in place. Sunday morning might be an option if it raining so teams have a chance to change setup etc. However, todays cars are not so different between wet and dry setups due to the tire issues and a few other ECU changes with engine maps.

#649 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 3,601 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:49

Snip..
However, until now, it has always been about hell for leather racing on the absolute limit, with cars running wide, drivers spinning off, hitting barriers and such because they went over the limit etc. It has always, until now been about discriminating drivers and teams for being out front because of their use of resources and driver abilities to the maximum.
Snip..

Sorry. I don't think that statement is at all true. Can you possibly prove it to me ? I think that it was only like that for a short period in the 90's and 00's. At all other times people have had to conserve the car for significant parts of the race.


#650 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,118 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 14:53

Posts have been deleted, others have been edited.

If you wish this thread to remain open, I suggest everyone abides by the RC rules and posts constructive observations rather than letting it degenerate into a mud-slinging zone.