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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#751 bobban86

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 15:43

Is GP2 using the same tyres? So, teams with GP2 teams will have advantage in tyre understanding?


in what way do they differ?

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#752 Juggles

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 15:46

Any Schumacher vs Hill,Villenueve,Hakkinen,Coulthard,Montoya,Raikkonen,Alonso and whomever is worth mentioning was worth everything.The relentless pursuits,the ballsy passes as rare as they were required work and skill. Sitting on the edge of the couch biting the nails wondering whether your driver's engine would pop,whether he'd run wide and get stuck in gravel.

Now a race finish is almost guaranteed,an off track not punished,and to top it all we have cheese tires that have turned racing into Sunday afternoon drives.

By the time the last stint comes around the race is finished and everyone is just "bringing it home"


Also 07-08-09-10 the racing was great with some epic races and battles.No way in hell this is racing now when going faster punishes you.


I agree with some of what you say but the bolded part is just wrong. Look what happened to Raikkonen in China. The race is far more likely to be decided in the final stint than it was before the Pirelli era. You can say that the current F1 is artificial, but not that it is predictable. To my mind its excessive unpredictability is one of its problems.

I think the FIA have made the mistake of thinking that more is always better in the case of overtaking. I read a book review a while ago that I've just dug up because it sums up this error quite well:

More is not necessarily more exciting. Being charged by an enraged bull is exciting . Being charged by 12 bulls is not 12 times more exciting. Being charged by 12 bulls ridden by mutant crocodiles is still not 12 times more exciting, it's just silly.

Just like in economics, the more there is of something the less valuable it is. That doesn't mean I want to see processional races. It means I want to be standing up with excitement when I see an overtake rather than blinking a couple of times.

#753 spacekid

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:23

By the same logic that 'more' is always exciting, I've always felt that football could do with 'spicing up'. I'm so tired of 0-0 draws. So how about we add in 2 extra balls and remove the goalkeepers? Brilliant!!! Lots more goals = much more exciting sport.

Anyone who disagrees is just complaining because they aren't winning any more, or don't understand how football 'really' used to work, when people realised that actually a 0-0 draw could still be an exciting match.

#754 bub

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:25

By the same logic that 'more' is always exciting, I've always felt that football could do with 'spicing up'. I'm so tired of 0-0 draws. So how about we add in 2 extra balls and remove the goalkeepers? Brilliant!!! Lots more goals = much more exciting sport.

Anyone who disagrees is just complaining because they aren't winning any more, or don't understand how football 'really' used to work, when people realised that actually a 0-0 draw could still be an exciting match.



:lol: :lol:

#755 Pizdek

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:45

Rules are fine. Tyres are fine.

Show will be even better if refueling is on! We would have totally unpredictable races.

Just keep the rules and bring back refueling...

#756 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:57

Paul Fearnley, "Schumacher: get a grip" http://www.motorspor...yGJT5lY.twitter
grandprix.com, "Schumacher: a short memory?" http://www.grandprix...ns/ns24072.html

and so on.

Why so, btw?


Here's another one, AMuS: http://www.auto-moto...ch-4805064.html

Funny how basically nobody agrees in the comments section.

#757 ascension

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:57

I understand Schumacher's frustration of course. Posted Image

#758 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:05

I agree with some of what you say but the bolded part is just wrong. Look what happened to Raikkonen in China. The race is far more likely to be decided in the final stint than it was before the Pirelli era. You can say that the current F1 is artificial, but not that it is predictable. To my mind its excessive unpredictability is one of its problems.

I think the FIA have made the mistake of thinking that more is always better in the case of overtaking. I read a book review a while ago that I've just dug up because it sums up this error quite well:

More is not necessarily more exciting. Being charged by an enraged bull is exciting . Being charged by 12 bulls is not 12 times more exciting. Being charged by 12 bulls ridden by mutant crocodiles is still not 12 times more exciting, it's just silly.

Just like in economics, the more there is of something the less valuable it is. That doesn't mean I want to see processional races. It means I want to be standing up with excitement when I see an overtake rather than blinking a couple of times.


I disagree,in Bahrain the top 10 who were on the same strategy never exchanged spots and there wasn't any overtaking done,all I saw is everyone just cruising behind e/o and it was obvious nothing was gonna happen,everyone was nursing their tires home.

China was the same way bar Kimi.There wasn't any passing from guys on the same strategy during the last stint in the top 10.The obvious reason is no one wants to risk killing their tires so cruising is the only option it seems. Like Kimi in Bahrain,he had one shot,missed,then just brought it home.



#759 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:31

Karun Chandhok confirmed how drivers are given a target lap time in The Flying Lap this week i.e. the dreaded delta.

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#760 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:36

Karun Chandhok confirmed how drivers are given a target lap time in The Flying Lap this week i.e. the dreaded delta.

Did he now? Well we weren't crazy after all nor just making excuses.I did say way back when posters here raised the question why drivers weren't speaking out and I always thought there was some sort of gag order in place.
Well it looks like the lid has come off.

#761 D.M.N.

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:43

Karun Chandhok confirmed how drivers are given a target lap time in The Flying Lap this week i.e. the dreaded delta.

Did he say a target lap time while drivers' are racing in the race? Every driver has a target lap time in the car when racing, normally their fastest lap time of the day, I'm not sure what is difference here.

The delta lap time normally comes into effect before/after a fast Qualifying lap or when behind a SC.

#762 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:45

Did he now? Well we weren't crazy after all nor just making excuses.I did say way back when posters here raised the question why drivers weren't speaking out and I always thought there was some sort of gag order in place.
Well it looks like the lid has come off.


That's what I suspected as well, it's disastrous PR for the 'F1' brand. Karun Chandhok did qualify these remarks by saying it's a problem that the '24 drivers' are frustrated by (implying all or nearly all the drivers don't like this) but also said that it's probably just them that are annoyed about it (and an increasing number of fans).



Watch from about 40 minutes.

#763 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:51

So what? In Turkey 2010 (aka pre pirelli) Button said he was given a target laptime of if I recall 1.31. Are you claiming they didn't race back when they had Bridgestones too?
Target laptimes are completely different to the "they are racing on a delta" and "Hamilton didn't overtake Alonso cause he didn't want to ruin his tires" nonsense

#764 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:53

So what? In Turkey 2010 (aka pre pirelli) Button said he was given a target laptime of if I recall 1.31. Are you claiming they didn't race back when they had Bridgestones too?
Target laptimes are completely different to the "they are racing on a delta" and "Hamilton didn't overtake Alonso cause he didn't want to ruin his tires" nonsense


Yes, when fuel saving, not tyre saving.

#765 ascension

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:57

They should change it back soon! Posted Image

#766 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:58

Did he say a target lap time while drivers' are racing in the race? Every driver has a target lap time in the car when racing, normally their fastest lap time of the day, I'm not sure what is difference here.

The delta lap time normally comes into effect before/after a fast Qualifying lap or when behind a SC.


Yes. Mark Hughes has made reference to this before the 2011 season even began and it's seemingly fallen on deaf ears.

#767 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:00

Yes, when fuel saving, not tyre saving.


And? If you equate having target laptimes to not racing then whatever the reason for those target laptimes then the end result is the same, no racing.

PS who told you they aren't fuel saving now?

PPS they had target laptimes since the late 90s, whether trying to do a overtake in the pits, stretch the stint by 2-3 laps to try and overtake in the pits, whatever. The target laptime is the optimal laptime with everything factored in, tires, fuel, engine, whatever. It's the ballpark laptime that will get you to complete the stint in the smallest amount of time based on the data the team has. Doing a quali lap during a 20 lap stint will burn off tyres and fuel. Having to then run 3 laps on a leaner mix to make up is no different to higher tire degradation.

#768 Juggles

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:00

I disagree,in Bahrain the top 10 who were on the same strategy never exchanged spots and there wasn't any overtaking done,all I saw is everyone just cruising behind e/o and it was obvious nothing was gonna happen,everyone was nursing their tires home.

China was the same way bar Kimi.There wasn't any passing from guys on the same strategy during the last stint in the top 10.The obvious reason is no one wants to risk killing their tires so cruising is the only option it seems. Like Kimi in Bahrain,he had one shot,missed,then just brought it home.


It wasn't to me. When I saw Raikkonen closing on Vettel during the penultimate stint I had no idea what was going to happen. At that stage the race was really up for grabs. You are essentially saying that the Pirellis cause processional races because no one wants to risk destroying their tyres by attacking the car in front, but that doesn't correlate with how much more overtaking we are seeing on the Pirellis than we did on the Bridgestones.

That said, it is very important in any sport that you are rewarded for ability and hard work. In F1 you still are of course, but the tyres have become a big enough factor in overall race pace that they can negate hard won technical advantage to too large an extent.

#769 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:14

And? If you equate having target laptimes to not racing then whatever the reason for those target laptimes then the end result is the same, no racing.

PS who told you they aren't fuel saving now?

PPS they had target laptimes since the late 90s, whether trying to do a overtake in the pits, stretch the stint by 2-3 laps to try and overtake in the pits, whatever. The target laptime is the optimal laptime with everything factored in, tires, fuel, engine, whatever. It's the ballpark laptime that will get you to complete the stint in the smallest amount of time based on the data the team has. Doing a quali lap during a 20 lap stint will burn off tyres and fuel. Having to then run 3 laps on a leaner mix to make up is no different to higher tire degradation.


That was an exception to the rule (and is as much a team orders debate as it is anything else), they raced the vast majority of the day close to flat out. What we're talking about is how drivers are virtually never driving flat out when the tyres are this marginal i.e. trundling along well within their abilities, Chandhok mentions that as well. As James Calado said a few episodes back, when racing at Malaysia in GP2, he conscientiously saved his tyres the entire race, then when he decided to push he only ended up going slower because the tyres slided more and overheated reducing his grip.

When the temps are properly cool the Pirellis become more raceable, but the majority of the races are in hot track temperatures and result in the races being total tyre conservation exercises. That's a bollocks situation, unless you don't care why anything on track is happening, just that it's happening - because there's no denying it does produce more overtly 'exciting action', but it's just a product of the drivers being helplessly restricted by their tyres. Virtually everything that's happening in a race is tyre centric, the art of trying to drive as fast as is humanly possible is far down the list of priorities on Sunday, and unless i'm hopelessly naive and jaded, I think that's historically been a pretty big selling point of the Formula.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 28 April 2012 - 20:15.


#770 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:21

That was an exception to the rule (and is as much a team orders debate as it is anything else) and they raced the vast majority of the day close to flat out. What we're talking about is how drivers are virtually never driving flat out when the tyres are this marginal i.e. trundling along well within their abilities, Chandhok mentions that as well. As James Calado said a few episodes back, when racing at Malaysia in GP2, he conscientiously saved his tyres the entire race, then when he decided to push he only ended up going slower because the tyres slided more and overheated reducing his grip. When the temps are properly cool the Pirellis become more raceable, but the majority of the races are in hot track temperatures and result in the races being total tyre conservation exercises. That's a bollocks situation, unless you don't care why anything on track is happening, just that it's happening - because there's no denying it does produce more overtly 'exciting action', but it's just a product of the drivers being helplessly restricted by their tyres. Virtually everything that's happening in a race is tyre centric, the art of trying to drive as fast as is humanly possible is far down the list of priorities on Sunday, and unless i'm hopelessly naive and jaded, I think that's historically been a pretty big selling point of the Formula.


The only time the drivers drove flat out was during the refueling era (except 2005 - that was a tire management year again) and before they had limited engines, gearboxes etc. The moment the refueling era ended they stopped driving flat out and started managing the race. Thinking otherwise is a delusion. They are conserving lots of things, tires, fuel, engines, gearboxes, brakes ( go do a quali lap with 150kilos of fuel onboard then check the brakes out, they will closely resemble a steaming pile of dung). How close they get to the optimal lap time for that particular point in the race depends on lots and lots of factors, not just tires.

#771 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:24

It wasn't to me. When I saw Raikkonen closing on Vettel during the penultimate stint I had no idea what was going to happen. At that stage the race was really up for grabs. You are essentially saying that the Pirellis cause processional races because no one wants to risk destroying their tyres by attacking the car in front, but that doesn't correlate with how much more overtaking we are seeing on the Pirellis than we did on the Bridgestones.

That said, it is very important in any sport that you are rewarded for ability and hard work. In F1 you still are of course, but the tyres have become a big enough factor in overall race pace that they can negate hard won technical advantage to too large an extent.


Because you are seeing half the grid on say a 3stopper overtake the other half on a 2stopper twice a race thus you think there's a lot of overtaking when in actuality there isn't.

LH has been overtaken once, JB twice, SV 5times with 4 coming in China so basically once,MW 5 times and FA 6 times and 4 came the last race.
So the Top of the grid is rarely changing spots,it's the midfield,different strategy chaos that's making you think there's plenty of passing.
The deception is clearly working for Bernie and his "Show" but I see beyond his BS. Out of 70 passes every GP there are no more than 15-20 of them that aren't artificial or due to different tire strategy,so there really isn't more actual passing just midfielders being passed while throwing a dice with the hopes of striking Gold.

#772 Aieljose

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:25

Who cares? Im tired of hearing the drivers whine about everything. Bunch of overpaid crybabies. If you hate it so much quit already and let someone else do it. You don't have to be there... I have no sympathy for whiners.

#773 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:29

The only time the drivers drove flat out was during the refueling era (except 2005 - that was a tire management year again) and before they had limited engines, gearboxes etc. The moment the refueling era ended they stopped driving flat out and started managing the race. Thinking otherwise is a delusion. They are conserving lots of things, tires, fuel, engines, gearboxes, brakes ( go do a quali lap with 150kilos of fuel onboard then check the brakes out, they will closely resemble a steaming pile of dung). How close they get to the optimal lap time for that particular point in the race depends on lots and lots of factors, not just tires.


We all know F1 hasn't always been a flat-out contest, but it has been as close to a flat out contest as the technology of the time has allowed it to be. This era is a throwback to a time when the tyres were basic, and a total exaggeration of it. Amazing that you would compare 2005 to now. 2005 was nothing like the Pirelli era. Just a quick glance at Forix, Turkey 2011 the fastest lap was 4.7 seconds off pole position in a 4 stop race, Turkey 2005 fastest lap was 2 seconds faster than pole on a single set of tyres that went the race distance. If you care to glance at the figures, the gulf in lap time between fastest lap and pole position since Pirelli have been aboard has been far greater than at any time over the previous 30 years. It's not ever been anything like this.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 28 April 2012 - 20:30.


#774 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:37

We all know F1 hasn't always been a flat-out contest, but it has been as close to a flat out contest as the technology of the time has allowed it to be. This era is a throwback to a time when the tyres were basic, and a total exaggeration of it. Amazing that you would compare 2005 to now. 2005 was nothing like the Pirelli era. Just a quick glance at Forix, Turkey 2011 the fastest lap was 4.7 seconds off pole position in a 4 stop race, Turkey 2005 fastest lap was 2 seconds faster than pole on a single set of tyres that went the race distance. If you care to glance at the figures, the gulf in lap time between fastest lap and pole position since Pirelli have been aboard has been far greater than at any time over the previous 30 years. It's not ever been anything like this.


2008 Turkish Grand Prix: Pole: 1:27.617 Race Fastest Lap: 1:26.506
2009 Turkish Grand Prix: Pole: 1:28.316 Race Fastest Lap: 1:27.579
----- END OF REFUELING ERA ------
2010 Turkish Grand Prix: Pole: 1:26.295 Race Fastest Lap: 1:29.165 (Bridgestone)
2011 Turkish Grand Prix: Pole: 1:25.049 Race Fastest Lap: 1:29.703 (Pirelli)

Compared to the effect the lack of refueling had, Pirelli is tiny, if you want it in percentage terms the pirelli effect is around 1.1%

Edited by engel, 28 April 2012 - 20:39.


#775 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:39

So what? In Turkey 2010 (aka pre pirelli) Button said he was given a target laptime of if I recall 1.31. Are you claiming they didn't race back when they had Bridgestones too?
Target laptimes are completely different to the "they are racing on a delta" and "Hamilton didn't overtake Alonso cause he didn't want to ruin his tires" nonsense


So why didn't he when he was .5/.4 and .3sec a lap faster,he never put a serious charge and lap 54/55/56 just sat there behind FA,when last year in Silverstone he was banging wheels with Massa all the way to the finish.
Everyone saw what happened to Kimi and took note how unpredictable Pirelli's are and how quick your race could become a disaster.
If you read this you'll find confirmation that the teams still have no clue about tire behavior,so why is it nonsense choosing the safer route when anything else is in the realm of the unknown?It makes perfect sense to sit and collect and keep within the delta.


#776 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:42

So why didn't he when he was .5/.4 and .3sec a lap faster,he never put a serious charge and lap 54/55/56 just sat there behind FA,when last year in Silverstone he was banging wheels with Massa all the way to the finish.
Everyone saw what happened to Kimi and took note how unpredictable Pirelli's are and how quick your race could become a disaster.
If you read this you'll find confirmation that the teams still have no clue about tire behavior,so why is it nonsense choosing the safer route when anything else is in the realm of the unknown?It makes perfect sense to sit and collect and keep within the delta.


So why was McLaren egging Button on to take DiResta and Rosberg? Conspiracy to ruin Button's tires ? I KNEW IT :)

#777 valachus

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:52

So why didn't he when he was .5/.4 and .3sec a lap faster,he never put a serious charge and lap 54/55/56 just sat there behind FA,when last year in Silverstone he was banging wheels with Massa all the way to the finish.
Everyone saw what happened to Kimi and took note how unpredictable Pirelli's are and how quick your race could become a disaster.
If you read this you'll find confirmation that the teams still have no clue about tire behavior,so why is it nonsense choosing the safer route when anything else is in the realm of the unknown?It makes perfect sense to sit and collect and keep within the delta.


They do have clues I bet on that. There were several sequences shot from a heli with Schumacher in Bahrain during the race, he was chasing Kobayashi I think, and he was visibly slowing 10 to 20 meters in advance of the usual braking point for any corner. Basically it's a matter of finding out how many Gs for how many seconds a tyre type will take at a certain track temperature during a race, and what longitudinal and lateral G thresholds will ruin the tyre instantly, and best method to optimize these parameters is driving like on ice. Like Schumi did and he did not do bad at all in Bahrain. Once that's clarified, best investment for a team will be in the weather forecast department.

#778 Dunder

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:55

I disagree,in Bahrain the top 10 who were on the same strategy never exchanged spots and there wasn't any overtaking done,all I saw is everyone just cruising behind e/o and it was obvious nothing was gonna happen,everyone was nursing their tires home.

China was the same way bar Kimi.There wasn't any passing from guys on the same strategy during the last stint in the top 10.The obvious reason is no one wants to risk killing their tires so cruising is the only option it seems. Like Kimi in Bahrain,he had one shot,missed,then just brought it home.


Grosjean passed Webber and Hamilton
Raikkonen passed Massa, Alonso, Button and Grosjean
Hamilton passed Alonso and Rosberg

All of those drivers ran 3 stoppers.

#779 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:57

Grosjean passed Webber and Hamilton
Raikkonen passed Massa, Alonso, Button and Grosjean
Hamilton passed Alonso and Rosberg

All of those drivers ran 3 stoppers.


I think he was referring to the last stint

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#780 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:58

So why was McLaren egging Button on to take DiResta and Rosberg? Conspiracy to ruin Button's tires ? I KNEW IT :)


Why does everyone here sidestep the debate with questions/examples of other instances-year's past and stupid smileys,smart arse replies and one liners?

DiResta was on another strategy and much much slower,1-2 seconds a lap :wave: Not even in the same stratosphere as the LH/FA situation,JB was simply being reminded of what's ahead and coming up and his laps were pretty consistent he wasn't pushing, but rather Di Resta was coming to him and went from a 38.3 to a 40.3 within 7laps.

Honestly,please come up with a better argument coz this is embarrassing,trying to explain something this obvious.

#781 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:10

They do have clues I bet on that. There were several sequences shot from a heli with Schumacher in Bahrain during the race, he was chasing Kobayashi I think, and he was visibly slowing 10 to 20 meters in advance of the usual braking point for any corner. Basically it's a matter of finding out how many Gs for how many seconds a tyre type will take at a certain track temperature during a race, and what longitudinal and lateral G thresholds will ruin the tyre instantly, and best method to optimize these parameters is driving like on ice. Like Schumi did and he did not do bad at all in Bahrain. Once that's clarified, best investment for a team will be in the weather forecast department.


Yes I agree on the Super Mega Doppler Radar being the new to have upgrade in Barcelona,what's next psychics and fortune tellers?

As for Schu,I'm sure drivers are trying everything out there,my comment was about the teams not having a clue as to what's making their cars a second faster/slower within a day.

#782 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:13

Why does everyone here sidestep the debate with questions/examples of other instances-year's past and stupid smileys,smart arse replies and one liners?

DiResta was on another strategy and much much slower,1-2 seconds a lap :wave: Not even in the same stratosphere as the LH/FA situation,JB was simply being reminded of what's ahead and coming up and his laps were pretty consistent he wasn't pushing, but rather Di Resta was coming to him and went from a 38.3 to a 40.3 within 7laps.

Honestly,please come up with a better argument coz this is embarrassing,trying to explain something this obvious.


you obviously don't have access to Sky, he was told there are places to be had at the end of the race (referencing Rosberg, Di Resta was a given and Webber was way too far ahead) just before he had his puncture. He was 0.7s/lap faster than Rosberg who was 2 seconds ahead of him. That's all the pushing he needed, puncture excluded of course.

Honestly, whats embarrassing is you claiming Hamilton didn't overtake Alonso "cause he was taking care of his tires" . Maybe more bizarre than embarrassing but anyways.

Edited by engel, 28 April 2012 - 21:13.


#783 Dunder

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:18

Why does everyone here sidestep the debate with questions/examples of other instances-year's past and stupid smileys,smart arse replies and one liners?

DiResta was on another strategy and much much slower,1-2 seconds a lap :wave: Not even in the same stratosphere as the LH/FA situation,JB was simply being reminded of what's ahead and coming up and his laps were pretty consistent he wasn't pushing, but rather Di Resta was coming to him and went from a 38.3 to a 40.3 within 7laps.

Honestly,please come up with a better argument coz this is embarrassing,trying to explain something this obvious.


With respect, all you are doing is cherry picking parts of races where not much happened whilst ignoring the parts where stuff did happen.

I don't think Hamilton's tyres much appreciated being run through all that dirt/crap when he re-passed Rosberg off track and then had that substantial lock-up into T4, for example.

#784 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:22

you obviously don't have access to Sky, he was told there are places to be had at the end of the race (referencing Rosberg, Di Resta was a given and Webber was way too far ahead) just before he had his puncture. He was 0.7s/lap faster than Rosberg who was 2 seconds ahead of him. That's all the pushing he needed, puncture excluded of course.

Button was running the same pace as before. Where is the pushing? Nico was fighting with Di Resta which as we know ruins tires.

#785 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:30

Button was running the same pace as before. Where is the pushing? Nico was fighting with Di Resta which as we know ruins tires.


He was going faster than the people ahead of him, as fast as he needed. He didn't need to shoot for 1.37s, he wouldn't catch Webber anyways, Webber was 18 seconds ahead at the time. Rosberg had worse deg that Button, Button was doing what he needed to do to try and get P5. And I didn't say he was pushing. According to the Fieraku mantra everybody and McLaren specifically at the third stint gave up, held station and didn't attempt to overtake cause it would destroy the tyres. As evidenced by the fact, according to Fieraku, Hamilton who was half a second behind Alonso didn't attempt to overtake Alonso cause that would have ruined the tires.I just wondered why didn't Button also just hang back and solidify p7

Edited by engel, 28 April 2012 - 21:32.


#786 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:47

With respect, all you are doing is cherry picking parts of races where not much happened whilst ignoring the parts where stuff did happen.

I don't think Hamilton's tyres much appreciated being run through all that dirt/crap when he re-passed Rosberg off track and then had that substantial lock-up into T4, for example.

Perhaps because during these different parts of the race the tires are different as well,like old vs new and the last stint is where cars are the lightest so should be fastest. Therefore yes I'm picking that last stint,LH set a 38.9 on lap 25 and a 38.9/38.5/39.0/38.87 the last 4laps so that indeed suggests cruising within a delta.

you obviously don't have access to Sky, he was told there are places to be had at the end of the race (referencing Rosberg, Di Resta was a given and Webber was way too far ahead) just before he had his puncture. He was 0.7s/lap faster than Rosberg who was 2 seconds ahead of him. That's all the pushing he needed, puncture excluded of course.

Honestly, whats embarrassing is you claiming Hamilton didn't overtake Alonso "cause he was taking care of his tires" . Maybe more bizarre than embarrassing but anyways.


JB was NOT going faster,the guys ahead were getting slower and slower,big difference.How is one pushing when his times are almost identical?

45 1:38.367 [7]
46 1:38.385 [7]
47 1:38.046 [7]
48 1:38.371 [7]
49 1:38.416 [7]
50 1:38.236 [7]
51 1:38.191 [7]
52 1:38.332 [7

Hamilton was doing exactly that :wave: What now?

Hamilton: "I'm trying to!"

6 days ago

Pit » HAM: "Yes, you are. You're 0.3s per lap faster than Jenson. Look after the tyres, there are still 11 laps to go."


#787 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:55

JB was NOT going faster,the guys ahead were getting slower and slower,big difference.How is one pushing when his times are almost identical?


Which part of that was all he needed to do didn't you get?

You are trying to convince me that one DRS move on Alonso would have ruined Hamilton's tires. You can repeat it eleventy billion times if it makes you feel better, it still won't work.

#788 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:00

He was going faster than the people ahead of him, as fast as he needed. He didn't need to shoot for 1.37s, he wouldn't catch Webber anyways, Webber was 18 seconds ahead at the time. Rosberg had worse deg that Button, Button was doing what he needed to do to try and get P5. And I didn't say he was pushing. According to the Fieraku mantra everybody and McLaren specifically at the third stint gave up, held station and didn't attempt to overtake cause it would destroy the tyres. As evidenced by the fact, according to Fieraku, Hamilton who was half a second behind Alonso didn't attempt to overtake Alonso cause that would have ruined the tires.I just wondered why didn't Button also just hang back and solidify p7


Pit » HAM: "You were 0.6s faster than ALO on the last lap. There are still 15 laps to go, we must make these tyres last."

Pit » BUT: "There are 10 laps to go, you're managing these tyres extremely well."

#789 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:13

Which part of that was all he needed to do didn't you get?

You are trying to convince me that one DRS move on Alonso would have ruined Hamilton's tires. You can repeat it eleventy billion times if it makes you feel better, it still won't work.


Convince you? It's right infront of you,Latham tells LH twice within 4laps he has to look after the tires,priority#1,even though he's faster.
If I'm wrong why doesn't Latham tell him to attack? Not even once.

The teams themselves are clueless whether one second or one minute will ruin the tires right behind someone or even by a single attack at the end,thus everyone just follows e/o taking the safe route.

Edited by fieraku, 28 April 2012 - 22:16.


#790 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:13

Pit » HAM: "You were 0.6s faster than ALO on the last lap. There are still 15 laps to go, we must make these tyres last."

Pit » BUT: "There are 10 laps to go, you're managing these tyres extremely well."


So the guy who was 0.6 faster than Alonso in one lap couldn't find another half a second in 15 laps (not half a second per lap, half a second in 15 laps) cause his tires would have melted away and that's the story of why Hamilton didn't pass Alonso, he was managing the tires. Makes sense. In a parallel universe.



#791 Boxerevo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:19

So the guy who was 0.6 faster than Alonso in one lap couldn't find another half a second in 15 laps (not half a second per lap, half a second in 15 laps) cause his tires would have melted away and that's the story of why Hamilton didn't pass Alonso, he was managing the tires. Makes sense. In a parallel universe.

I agree with you,for some reason Mclaren didn't had the pace.
Both drivers were struggling.

Edited by Boxerevo, 28 April 2012 - 22:20.


#792 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:22

So the guy who was 0.6 faster than Alonso in one lap couldn't find another half a second in 15 laps (not half a second per lap, half a second in 15 laps) cause his tires would have melted away and that's the story of why Hamilton didn't pass Alonso, he was managing the tires. Makes sense. In a parallel universe.

So what is his RE telling him exactly? :drunk: I don't even know who you're trying to fool anymore.

And he did find.......a full second........but never properly attacked.

53 1:38.763 [8] 1:38.658 [9] +0.105 -0.812

Edited by fieraku, 28 April 2012 - 22:28.


#793 Dunder

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:33

Perhaps because during these different parts of the race the tires are different as well,like old vs new and the last stint is where cars are the lightest so should be fastest. Therefore yes I'm picking that last stint,LH set a 38.9 on lap 25 and a 38.9/38.5/39.0/38.87 the last 4laps so that indeed suggests cruising within a delta.


It only suggests that if that is what you are looking for.

The McLarens were overheating the rear tyres and consequently had very poor traction after only a few laps in each stint. That is why we heard........

HAM -> Pit "I can't get close to the back of these Ferraris" (during the third stint)

For most of the final stint, Hamilton was 1-2 seconds behind Alonso. The idea that he was so afraid of this tyres giving up that he just sat behind him running 38.6's and 38.8's defies logic not least because he was mostly 38.0's earlier in that same stint.

Andy Latham is always telling Lewis to look after the tyres (remember China 2011?), what I have never heard from him (or any other RE) is this mythical delta/target time that has become so ingrained in the psyche of many around here.


#794 Aubwi

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:34

I've changed my mind on this somewhat. Initially, my thinking was the tires were something like the pre-refuelling era of 1984-1993, but on further thought if the tires are only designed to last a third or even less of the race, then it's really a whole different game. Plus the fact that the tires are built with layers of different compounds, can make some extreme differences. It sounds like today's drivers are spending pretty much the entire race taking care of the tires. That's very different from the old days where they might spend just 10 laps or so taking care of the tires when they were stuck behind another car just to get a slight performance edge and pounce with a pass on him later. There's no tactics with these tires, there is only technique- nursing the tires constantly.

#795 MightyMoose

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:34

This thread is not a "Boys have at it" thread, if you can't be nice (even if you don't mean it!), say nothing at all. Personal attacks from people with opposing views will never be acceptable here.

Calm it down please.

#796 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:49

It only suggests that if that is what you are looking for.

The McLarens were overheating the rear tyres and consequently had very poor traction after only a few laps in each stint. That is why we heard........

HAM -> Pit "I can't get close to the back of these Ferraris" (during the third stint)

For most of the final stint, Hamilton was 1-2 seconds behind Alonso. The idea that he was so afraid of this tyres giving up that he just sat behind him running 38.6's and 38.8's defies logic not least because he was mostly 38.0's earlier in that same stint.

Andy Latham is always telling Lewis to look after the tyres (remember China 2011?), what I have never heard from him (or any other RE) is this mythical delta/target time that has become so ingrained in the psyche of many around here.


How so? Do you want it spelled out to believe it? I don't!

Pit » HAM: "You were 0.6s faster than ALO on the last lap. There are still 15 laps to go, we must make these tyres last."

Manage your tires is as good as don't try anything else.
And if he could How does battling Alo for position help make tires last?Did you not see NR just battle diResta for 2laps and his tires were gone just like that?Yes he sat there and brought it home,I saw no real effort to pass.
Does AL have to spell it "Do not attack"? Do you believe FOM would air such comments? If they did they might as well close shop and admit themselves racing is fake.The teams wanted these tires so they absolutely can not say or air anything negative,that's why I give MSC :up: :up: :up: for saying what everyone is afraid of.
What defies logic is when a 7time WDC just confirms what a lot of fans have speculated,then another driver agrees yet some here would like a noterized letter signed by all 24 drivers in order to believe.To each his own.


I was talking about the delta 5 months ago,read my sig.Glad MSC came out and stamped it.

#797 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:53

I can't understand what relevance does it have if Lewis attacked Alonso because of pace or tires has to this discussion. No matter if it's one or the other it still doesn't change a single thing about the points being raised. Another thread derailed by fanboyism?

He was going faster than the people ahead of him, as fast as he needed. He didn't need to shoot for 1.37s, he wouldn't catch Webber anyways, Webber was 18 seconds ahead at the time. Rosberg had worse deg that Button, Button was doing what he needed to do to try and get P5.


So instead of pushing (presumably he had faster pace) he just cruised at a set time and "tried" to get P5? At that pace it's doubtful he would have gotten Rosberg (Nico's times improved after passing Di Resta and Button still had to overtake the FI).

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 April 2012 - 23:56.


#798 valachus

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:08

So the guy who was 0.6 faster than Alonso in one lap couldn't find another half a second in 15 laps (not half a second per lap, half a second in 15 laps) cause his tires would have melted away and that's the story of why Hamilton didn't pass Alonso, he was managing the tires. Makes sense. In a parallel universe.


Umm, makes sense in this universe too. This quote below here is not direct evidence, but it fits pretty well:

Pit » HAM: "You were 0.6s faster than ALO on the last lap. There are still 15 laps to go, we must make these tyres last."


However for the counter argument going like this...

The McLarens were overheating the rear tyres and consequently had very poor traction after only a few laps in each stint. That is why we heard........

HAM -> Pit "I can't get close to the back of these Ferraris" (during the third stint)

For most of the final stint, Hamilton was 1-2 seconds behind Alonso. The idea that he was so afraid of this tyres giving up that he just sat behind him running 38.6's and 38.8's defies logic not least because he was mostly 38.0's earlier in that same stint.

one must look at the data set and only then to try to put things in context:
...there's the observation that Hamilton's last stint started with his FL of the race - 1.37.7, half a second faster than Alonso's FL; but Alonso got his FL on lap 44 instead of lap 38 of Hamilton. Alonso lapped all of his stint constantly at about 1.38.5, while Hamilton stint opening lap succession was fastestlap-fast-SLOW [tyre cooldown?]-fast-fast-PITCALL "you must go 15 more laps on these tyres" - and then stabilized his laptimes [engine tune-down?] until the end of the race.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....ewis Hamilton

Under these circumstances I don't think it can be denied that the pitcall was determinant and that Hamilton [most likely] tuned down his engine and went in conservation mode. Otherwise is there a sugestion that Lewis, if always going at the limit of his abilities, somehow forgot how to extract a full second out of his car in the space of 15 minutes?

Edited by valachus, 29 April 2012 - 00:09.


#799 Dunder

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:28

How so? Do you want it spelled out to believe it? I don't!

Pit » HAM: "You were 0.6s faster than ALO on the last lap. There are still 15 laps to go, we must make these tyres last."

a) Manage your tires is as good as don't try anything else.
And if he could How does battling Alo for position help make tires last?Did you not see NR just battle diResta for 2laps and his tires were gone just like that?Yes he sat there and brought it home,I saw no real effort to pass.
Does AL have to spell it "Do not attack"? b) Do you believe FOM would air such comments? If they did they might as well close shop and admit themselves racing is fake. c)The teams wanted these tires so they absolutely can not say or air anything negative,that's why I give MSC :up: :up: :up: for saying what everyone is afraid of.
What defies logic is when a 7time WDC just confirms what a lot of fans have speculated,then another driver agrees yet some here would like a noterized letter signed by all 24 drivers in order to believe.To each his own.


I was talking about the delta 5 months ago,read my sig.Glad MSC came out and stamped it.


a) No, it really isn't. That is just a case of you choosing to interpret a message in a way that fits your view. Looking at it dispassionately the message is just two sentences each of which contains a statement of fact. Lewis received several messages telling how fast/slow he was compared to cars around him during the course of the race.

b) So now we have radio messages with target times which FOM are not broadcasting? Really?

c) Isn't that a contradiction? We are to believe that the teams need to keep things quiet but we have two drivers from one team (which has had consistent problems in terms of tyre management since the start of 2011) who have chosen to break the silence. Isn't Mercedes don't like these tyres a far more rational explanation?

To each his own, as you say but you are still left with the problem of explaining

a) How a field which is separated by less than 1.5 seconds per lap in terms of qualifying pace (if we exclude the 3 'new' teams) does not run nose to tail for the full race distance if the fastest cars are running to a target/delta which is multiple seconds slower than the cars' capability. There are rational explanations as to why there is a difference between the fastest/slowest cars' respective qualifying and race pace (which we also saw in 2010) which relate to the lack refuelling

b) How some drivers consistently outpace and beat their team mates.


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#800 TheBunk

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:52

I think we should wait a few more races to start blaming tyres. So far we only had 4 races with each in different conditions.

I also think Rinehart said a good point: weve had these discussions 14 years ago too, with those grooved tyres and more problems, the huge lack of overtaking, and some teams turning down cars/engines after the first pit stop. Todays tyres seem like a gift from heaven compared.