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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#851 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 19:07

I wonder what car Massa and Kobayashi were driving in Malaysia.

you actually prove his point -> the cars are so f*** sensitive to temperature window and setup that the same team can have a very fast car and a very slow car without really understanfing anything from it for the next race.

it's just a big lottery where some of the guys will get it right. Or for some other reason Alonso in Bahrain was just as fast as Massa suddenly?

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#852 apoka

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 19:27

One was a Racing tire the other is a SHOW tire,so I don't understand how studying "degradation" will change that fact. The thread derived from Nico's and Schu's comments,not because of the chemical reaction that makes tires degrade.

I think the point is that you can have the best of both worlds, if you create a tyre which has a similar degradation when pushing vs. degradation when cruising. Of course, that is very hard to achieve.

Neither the old Bridgestones nor the current Pirellis are an ideal solution. Even if there is certainly quiet a show element in the races this year, I think races on tyres which last the entire race would be even worse. A better solution would be to modify the Pirelli tyres in such a way that drivers can push a bit harder (but the tyres should still degrade significantly otherwise there won't be performance differences which you somehow need to make race strategies interesting).


#853 Dunder

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:34

Ahh so now you don't know who sheds more,when first you said the Bridgestones do.


Fair enough, I should not have said that.

And seriously to you :wave: who cares about the chemical rubber reactions and formulas that cause degradation,all I know is that the Pirellis can not do 3 consecutive fast laps without going to sh**,they leave a ton of marbles creating an one lane track,


These are things that no-one has disputed albeit "overheating" would be more apt than "going to sh**".
As with most things, I don't think we can claim to know the 'what', if we don't if we don't understand the 'why'.


admittedly have confirmed they aren't pushing at all,and the lap times are almost identical throughout the race regardless of fuel loads which correlates with the delta Schu spoke of.


This is patently false. Lap times here (from Bahrain 2012) are colour coded in one second bands.

Posted Image

I don't even know what you're trying to argue by comparing them to Bridgestones who created the perfect racing tire even though it wasn't good for the "SHOW"

One was a Racing tire the other is a SHOW tire,so I don't understand how studying "degradation" will change that fact. The thread derived from Nico's and Schu's comments,not because of the chemical reaction that makes tires degrade.


That is an opinion and we have already had this conversation.

I consider tyres which degrade too slowly to be every bit as imperfect (as in 2010) as those that degrade too quickly (as in 2012). I also think that the biggest problem with the Pirellis is not the rate of degradation in itself, it is that the working range (even last year) is just too narrow for a control tyre.

I explained why I think this is the case in post #827 (to which you responded with "Pirellis will disintegrate regardless of loads,temperatures or setup,they're that bad." Frankly, that demonstrates that you know nothing about tyre dynamics.

The thread did indeed derive from the Mercedes drivers' comments which you and a few others have seized upon as "proof" of "pancake tyres", the "racing is fake" and that they "are driving to a delta". All I have done is to refute some of the 'evidence' that you have posted to that effect.

Edited by Dunder, 29 April 2012 - 21:32.


#854 TheBunk

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 21:51

you actually prove his point -> the cars are so f*** sensitive to temperature window and setup that the same team can have a very fast car and a very slow car without really understanfing anything from it for the next race.

it's just a big lottery where some of the guys will get it right. Or for some other reason Alonso in Bahrain was just as fast as Massa suddenly?


Not really. Ferrari knew from free practise in melbourne their car works in wet conditions: they can get these tyres to work, just as did Mclaren last year when various other teams lacked.

That is not luck, thats just the design of the car, and a set up that works. That other teams still havent figured it out is not Perez or Ferraris fault. On top of that the Perez and Alonso drive was spectacular and outstanding. Anyone degrading that as 'nothing special' sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.

Edited by TheBunk, 30 April 2012 - 10:08.


#855 TallyHo

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 22:01

Rosberg himself said after winning in China that he never pushed to the limit even for one lap and that he was nursing his tyres the whole race. And this was a race he won so you can't say he is complaining because of doing bad.

Do you think that Rosberg's comments in China had anything to do with the FACT that he was on a 2 stop, and Button & co were on a 3 stop. Just a thought.

#856 MP422

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 22:10

This is patently false. Lap times here (from Bahrain 2012) are colour coded in one second bands.

Posted Image



How are you reading it ? I see a 1:40s for 2nd laps and 1:40s for last laps.... Fireaku looks very wise to me right now ! I'm not arguing just observing the discussion really.

#857 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 23:05

How are you reading it ? I see a 1:40s for 2nd laps and 1:40s for last laps.... Fireaku looks very wise to me right now ! I'm not arguing just observing the discussion really.


Think about what happens during the last lap(s) of a race.

No, forget it, I'll tell you: those with big enough / too big gaps to the driver behind / in front will not push to the maximum anymore but just bring the thing home. Different distortions are at work during the first laps when they still sort out the running order. For this argument, what you'd have to look at is, say, lap 3 and lap 54.

#858 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 23:09

Oh, and meanwhile, the instigator of this thread has this to say:

"Personally, I think it's great for the season. We've had four winners in four races, [so it is] all mixed up. It couldn't be better for Formula 1. Also within the races, with the tyre degradation and with lots of overtaking, we've had lots of exciting races."

Rosberg: Tyre challenge great for F1

:D

#859 MidKnight

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:55

:rolleyes:
I hope that smiley is about laughing at the naive things you said. Bahrain didn't seem much different that other races to me. If you think we are talking about Bahrain alone then you are in deep sleep. Rosberg himself said after winning in China that he never pushed to the limit even for one lap and that he was nursing his tyres the whole race. And this was a race he won so you can't say he is complaining because of doing bad.
All the teams admit that is all about saving and handling the tyres and that's exactly what we saw in the last races with our own eyes.
They say he have more battles and overtakes now but those are all boring and good only for those knowing nothing about F1. Casual viewers might be happy cause they have no idea the suppose great overtake they just saw was nothing great at all because the other guy had no tyres. I guess FIA are happy since they wanted to make more casual viewers happy instead of real F1 fans.


Nonsense. It's a small minority of people complaining about the tires...the racing has been good; China was a fantastic race. David Hobbs is one to never mince words and the man has had nothing but praise for the race craft that happened in China...it's one of the better F1 races we've had in years.

Edited by MidKnight, 30 April 2012 - 01:56.


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#860 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:15

The luck I am talking about is that cars are have been poorly designed are suddenly turning into dominant cars when the track temperature changes.

Unbelievable statement. This means they are NOT poorly designed.

Jaguar got podium in Monaco in 2001 with a strong mechanical grip car. Yet next year they made a low drag car and got a podium at Monza (hopeless at Monaco though). Does this McLaren and Williams suddenly had less downforce on the day? No. Jaguar was the better car on the day. It did GENUINELY, FACTUALLY have strong, competitive downforce or traction relative to "top" car in that configuration, at the track.

#861 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:18

the cars are so f*** sensitive to temperature window and setup that the same team can have a very fast car and a very slow car without really understanfing anything from it for the next race.

Some teams have always been bad at this for example Jaguar/Red Bull and Honda/BAR/Brawn/Mercedes. BAR could not explain or reproduce why they were fast in 2004, in 2005 IMO. Obviously Red Bull have improved their chassis engineering dept, while Brawn still had occasional massive tyre troubles for Button even in double world championship winning year.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 April 2012 - 02:19.


#862 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:13

No, I think he was bang on in that assessment. Good drives by them both, but they had more grip than those behind them due to the peculiarities of the tyres' operating window.


Pecularities???

I have a feeling some of you need to rewind your tapes to the tire war years, that same argument is valid to those times then and those winning were nothing special. :rolleyes:

In order to finish first, you have always had to make sure you dont grain the tires by getting them outside their "operating window".

Edited by Menace, 30 April 2012 - 03:14.


#863 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:16

The luck I am talking about is that cars are have been poorly designed are suddenly turning into dominant cars when the track temperature changes.


Now THAT is a pathetic argument, if anything the cream always rises to the top and the teams and drivers that adapt the best to the regulations reap the rewards... this is starting to really sound more and more like sour grapes.

#864 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:18

Think about what happens during the last lap(s) of a race.

No, forget it, I'll tell you: those with big enough / too big gaps to the driver behind / in front will not push to the maximum anymore but just bring the thing home. Different distortions are at work during the first laps when they still sort out the running order. For this argument, what you'd have to look at is, say, lap 3 and lap 54.


Bingo, and that is nothing new to the "sport" of F1. :up:

#865 ivand911

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:12

Oh, and meanwhile, the instigator of this thread has this to say:

"Personally, I think it's great for the season. We've had four winners in four races, [so it is] all mixed up. It couldn't be better for Formula 1. Also within the races, with the tyre degradation and with lots of overtaking, we've had lots of exciting races."

Rosberg: Tyre challenge great for F1

:D

This is only PR article, pushed strongly by Pirelli. I don't believe when drivers backtrack their original views. Pirelli is crying strongly behind the curtain to Merc, FIA, BE,to everybody. I guess they are making better contracts than tyres. I guess in the contract is said than nobody can criticize the tyres. Apparently MS don't give a shit about it. He want to save F1 from becoming WWE. Who will pay hundreds euro or pounds to visit WWE race? Young boys like Nico don't have chance, if he want to receive his multimillion salary, he have to play by the whistle. And to learn not to get hurt when hitting the ring or ropes. All other drivers are in the same position, just put their tail between their legs. And to listen the master. As a consumer I know how to vote against Pirelli.

Edited by ivand911, 30 April 2012 - 07:14.


#866 ali_M

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:03

This is only PR article, pushed strongly by Pirelli. I don't believe when drivers backtrack their original views. Pirelli is crying strongly behind the curtain to Merc, FIA, BE,to everybody. I guess they are making better contracts than tyres. I guess in the contract is said than nobody can criticize the tyres. Apparently MS don't give a shit about it. He want to save F1 from becoming WWE. Who will pay hundreds euro or pounds to visit WWE race? Young boys like Nico don't have chance, if he want to receive his multimillion salary, he have to play by the whistle. And to learn not to get hurt when hitting the ring or ropes. All other drivers are in the same position, just put their tail between their legs. And to listen the master. As a consumer I know how to vote against Pirelli.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

#867 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:26

Nonsense. It's a small minority of people complaining about the tires...the racing has been good; China was a fantastic race. David Hobbs is one to never mince words and the man has had nothing but praise for the race craft that happened in China...it's one of the better F1 races we've had in years.

His current cushy job is probably last one he can get, which is why I do not expect Hobbs to rock the boat. I would not spend too much time therefore dwelling on inference of it regarding general state of racing in F1 today.

#868 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:38

Oh, and meanwhile, the instigator of this thread has this to say:

"Personally, I think it's great for the season. We've had four winners in four races, [so it is] all mixed up. It couldn't be better for Formula 1. Also within the races, with the tyre degradation and with lots of overtaking, we've had lots of exciting races."

Rosberg: Tyre challenge great for F1

:D

Understandably his is youthful exuberance in emotional moment that was free of long term strategic thinking. Besides, he might like four different winners in four races, but I don't.



#869 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:51

Understandably his is youthful exuberance in emotional moment that was free of long term strategic thinking. Besides, he might like four different winners in four races, but I don't.

not only 4 different winners but 4 different teams which means none of the teams have any clue about wtfk makes these tyres work
sometimes they get it right and bang, you win. next weekend you're nowhere

#870 ali_M

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:08

Understandably his is youthful exuberance in emotional moment that was free of long term strategic thinking. Besides, he might like four different winners in four races, but I don't.


I can remember when Monteiro got his one and only podium finish in Indy 2005. He was ecstatic even though he was one of only 6 cars in the race. The podium counted for him. Schumacher was similarly pleased with his win.

Anything for those wins, podiums and points. The teams and drivers who would not be at the front under 'normal circumstances' understandably love this situation.

OTOH, Schumi has finished races in modest positions since he's been at Mercedes. He has on many of those occasions said that he had good fun, even though the finish position was just inside or even outside the points. It's so unlike him to complain in the way that he did and about what he did. In fact, he's one of the only ones in the paddock in a position to speak truthfully about the situation. Yes, he'd like to win, but he's already accomplished and has nothing really to prove.

Rosberg, OTOH..... I'm not surprised with his apparent change of heart. Likely instructed by Bernie. :well:

#871 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:44

I think the point is that you can have the best of both worlds, if you create a tyre which has a similar degradation when pushing vs. degradation when cruising. Of course, that is very hard to achieve.

Neither the old Bridgestones nor the current Pirellis are an ideal solution. Even if there is certainly quiet a show element in the races this year, I think races on tyres which last the entire race would be even worse. A better solution would be to modify the Pirelli tyres in such a way that drivers can push a bit harder (but the tyres should still degrade significantly otherwise there won't be performance differences which you somehow need to make race strategies interesting).

How about a tire that lasts 18-20 laps and can be pushed like hell for 13-14 then drops after that? So if driver X wants to go balls to the wall for 14 laps he can do so,and if driver Y wants to manage for 20 he can as well do so. What we have now is required mandatory tire management for all drivers during 90% of the race while pushing at 70%,so much so that when Brundle had a chat with 2 drivers they had to say this:


" In eight days we have had two great races largely driven by the degradation and resultant strategy dilemmas around the Pirelli tyres. In our show I expressed an opinion that whilst I'm really enjoying the races I wouldn't want F1 to become only about the tyres. I hadn't realised that Michael Schumacher was about to launch a broadside at the difficulty of managing the narrow window of performance and the high drop off of the tyre grip.

On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are.


Pirelli have done a great job for F1 and judging by audience figures and comments the fans love this style of unpredictable racing. But it does become confusing when we have drivers popping up out of the blue with a fast but unrepeatable lap time in a session, and fancied runners simply disappearing backwards in the race. We need to see pure skill, speed and pace win through too, and not simply just applaud those who could tip toe the best or find the right set-up sweetspot on the day. There is room for both."

#872 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:06

Fair enough, I should not have said that.



These are things that no-one has disputed albeit "overheating" would be more apt than "going to sh**".
As with most things, I don't think we can claim to know the 'what', if we don't if we don't understand the 'why'.




This is patently false. Lap times here (from Bahrain 2012) are colour coded in one second bands.




That is an opinion and we have already had this conversation.

I consider tyres which degrade too slowly to be every bit as imperfect (as in 2010) as those that degrade too quickly (as in 2012). I also think that the biggest problem with the Pirellis is not the rate of degradation in itself, it is that the working range (even last year) is just too narrow for a control tyre.

I explained why I think this is the case in post #827 (to which you responded with "Pirellis will disintegrate regardless of loads,temperatures or setup,they're that bad." Frankly, that demonstrates that you know nothing about tyre dynamics.

The thread did indeed derive from the Mercedes drivers' comments which you and a few others have seized upon as "proof" of "pancake tyres", the "racing is fake" and that they "are driving to a delta". All I have done is to refute some of the 'evidence' that you have posted to that effect.


They will disintegrate regardless of anything and I don't need an MIT tire dynamics course to show me. Logic my friend,logic. Take Qualifying for example,if the tires would NOT disintegrate why are they used for a single lap?

Now kindly tell me what happens if say LH drives a set of SS flat out on Q sim for 2-3 laps at Bahrain during those scorching temps?
I guarantee you that set will be down to the canvas after a few laps thus "disintegrate"

I don't think MSC is lying,he has no reason to,and I suspected such thing all the way last season myself.


As for the chart it exactly proves my point,look at the last stint of each driver,you couldn't make this up if you wanted to.

#873 TheBunk

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:14

Im sorry fieraku, but it all sounds a lot like

Posted Image

#874 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:20

Oh, and meanwhile, the instigator of this thread has this to say:

"Personally, I think it's great for the season. We've had four winners in four races, [so it is] all mixed up. It couldn't be better for Formula 1. Also within the races, with the tyre degradation and with lots of overtaking, we've had lots of exciting races."

Rosberg: Tyre challenge great for F1

:D


Bernie gave him a call perhaps? Too bad he can't to sh** about Schu who became my HERO now.Ironically the Pirellis have helped him yet he takes a sh** on them, a true racer and one of the few left.

Pirelli was the right choice for 2011 because the alternative tire suppliers did not want to spice up formula one.

That is the claim of Bernie Ecclestone, who in recent days has thanked the Italian marque for agreeing to deliberately produce tires that degrade quickly.

"Only Pirelli would do it, and we must thank them. It was brave and the show has improved. Michelin and Bridgestone refused to build tires like this because they were worried about their image," he said in an interview with Swiss newspaper Blick.


I knew F1 was dead and the Show was born was when I heard the words (spice up,deliberately degrade and X/Y refused to do so.
Enter X-Box/WWE era.

#875 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:25

Im sorry fieraku, but it all sounds a lot like

Well it's more like.....

Posted Image

I feel betrayed,not as if I lost my dog. ;)

#876 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:25

Im sorry fieraku, but it all sounds a lot like

Posted Image


That old chestnut? What a good argument you've made. Well done.

#877 bub

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:26

That old chestnut? What a good argument you've made. Well done.



Lmao

#878 TheBunk

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:27

Well it's more like.....

Posted Image

I feel betrayed,not as if I lost my dog.;)



:lol:


#879 as65p

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:39

I knew F1 was dead and the Show was born was when I heard the words (spice up,deliberately degrade and X/Y refused to do so.
Enter X-Box/WWE era.


Oh, yeah, F1 was pure sport before 2011. :drunk:

Sorry, but more often than not you sound like someone unable to comprehend what he's watching, it appears the whole thing is just way too complex for you.

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#880 Alx09

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:40

Such a PR article. Why are everyone in media and the teams speaking so warmly about the tyres when they are crap? Because Pirelli were the only ones up for supplying free tyres to the teams?

It's as if there is a silent rule that no one is allowed to criticize.

Edited by Alx09, 30 April 2012 - 12:40.


#881 eoin

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:51

Not really. Ferrari knew from free practise in melbourne their car works in wet conditions: they can get these tyres to work, just as did Mclaren last year when various other teams lacked.

That is not luck, thats just the design of the car, and a set up that works. That other teams still havent figured it out is not Perez or Ferraris fault. On top of that the Perez and Alonso drive was spectacular and outstanding. Anyone degrading that as 'nothing special' sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.


It's possible that is true but it's also very possible that it was down to the tyre lottery that we have this season which is the point that I am making. It has become very hard to judge what is going on. A bit of unpredictability is what makes sport interesting but constant unpredictability gets dull, and fast. We aren't there yet but if all I hear about is tyres, tyres, tyres for the next couple of races then I will probably start to voluntarily skip races- something that hasn't happened since mid 1995.

Edited by eoin, 30 April 2012 - 12:54.


#882 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:52

Oh, yeah, F1 was pure sport before 2011. :drunk:

Sorry, but more often than not you sound like someone unable to comprehend what he's watching, it appears the whole thing is just way too complex for you.


Pure sport?Says who :stoned: :drunk:
Pure balls to the wall Racing :wave: that's all I care for,not for Flavio's crashgate or Alonso's Spygate.I'm fully aware that F1 is filled with undistinguished gentleman and cheats but I don't care about that ''purity'', only for the ''on track RACING'' part of it.

Maybe I am too complex for you,since you're missing with every hit,strikeout galore.

Edited by fieraku, 30 April 2012 - 12:55.


#883 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 13:01

F1 always had some issues, however tire specs of today I view more of as a result when you treat symptoms, instead disease (root cause), and then piling one bad decision upon another.

#884 Dunder

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 16:57

They will disintegrate regardless of anything and I don't need an MIT tire dynamics course to show me. Logic my friend,logic.a) Take Qualifying for example,if the tires would NOT disintegrate why are they used for a single lap?

Now kindly tell me what happens if say LH drives a set of SS flat out on Q sim for 2-3 laps at Bahrain during those scorching temps?
b) I guarantee you that set will be down to the canvas after a few laps thus "disintegrate"

I don't think MSC is lying,he has no reason to,and I suspected such thing all the way last season myself.


c)As for the chart it exactly proves my point,look at the last stint of each driver,you couldn't make this up if you wanted to.


a) One flying lap on a set of tyres has been the norm in qualifying dating back to the 12 laps in 60 mins format. That is not new and remained the case even through the 'rocks' used in '05 and '07.

b) You guarantee, eh? I saw with my own eyes, Kobayashi rag a set of tyres in Barcelona (one of the toughest tracks in terms of deg). He ran a 10 or 11 lap stint with 6 of those laps within 1 second of the fastest lap of the day. They didn't fall apart. Your guarantee is about as valid as your earlier "undeniable proof".

c) How does the chart prove your point? Your statement was "and the lap times are almost identical throughout the race regardless of fuel loads"

Vettel, for example, has most laps in the 1:40's during the first stint, most laps in the 1:39's during the second stint, most laps in the 1:38's in the thrid stint and most laps in the 1:37's during the fourth stint. I am not a statistician but I think there might be a trend there!

Edited by Dunder, 30 April 2012 - 16:58.


#885 ivand911

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:12

a) One flying lap on a set of tyres has been the norm in qualifying dating back to the 12 laps in 60 mins format. That is not new and remained the case even through the 'rocks' used in '05 and '07.

b) You guarantee, eh? I saw with my own eyes, Kobayashi rag a set of tyres in Barcelona (one of the toughest tracks in terms of deg). He ran a 10 or 11 lap stint with 6 of those laps within 1 second of the fastest lap of the day. They didn't fall apart. Your guarantee is about as valid as your earlier "undeniable proof".

c) How does the chart prove your point? Your statement was "and the lap times are almost identical throughout the race regardless of fuel loads"

Vettel, for example, has most laps in the 1:40's during the first stint, most laps in the 1:39's during the second stint, most laps in the 1:38's in the thrid stint and most laps in the 1:37's during the fourth stint. I am not a statistician but I think there might be a trend there!

Which date? I can't find such stint. But, I find some 4-5 lap stint with two seconds degradation. This is 23.02.2012.
15:40:18 61 1:25.072 -1.137
15:42:33 62 1:26.268 +1.196
15:43:15 63 1:26.937 +0.669
15:45:26 64 1:26.996 +0.059
15:46:24 65 1:28.939 +1.943

16:11:24 68 1:25.402 -3.537
16:12:20 69 1:25.557 +0.155
16:14:19 70 1:26.601 +1.044
16:15:20 71 1:26.742 +0.141
16:17:17 72 1:26.532 -0.210
16:18:25 73 1:27.673 +1.141

Edited by ivand911, 30 April 2012 - 17:21.


#886 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:13

Dunder :up:



#887 MatsNorway

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:20

I want tires that doesn`t fall of the cliff when they overheat. a tire that is back on the grip after some wheelspin and sliding. And i want a tire that does not make a a black sea of marbles outside the line.

Short version: a tire that can be raced to the max for a long time.

#888 as65p

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:56

Pure sport?Says who :stoned: :drunk:
Pure balls to the wall Racing :wave: that's all I care for,not for Flavio's crashgate or Alonso's Spygate.I'm fully aware that F1 is filled with undistinguished gentleman and cheats but I don't care about that ''purity'', only for the ''on track RACING'' part of it.

Maybe I am too complex for you,since you're missing with every hit,strikeout galore.


Well, you are something too much for me, but it's not 'complex'. :p

Then again, it's not your fault, I really should know better than to expect a reasonable discussion with your kind. Keep blaming the equipment for your favorite drivers shortcomings, all that bitching has at least some entertainment value. :wave:

#889 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:12

From the Shumi thread (but it probably belongs here too):

Schuey prefers the old ways when Bridgestone's main team was Ferrari and, as a result, he had tailor-made tyres to his liking and designed around his style.

I mean while Michelin had to worry about McLaren, Williams and Renault - and, thus, couldn't cater to any one team - Bridgestone's 'second' team was BAR...so it was very easy to focus on Ferrari and, more specifically, on their Number 1 driver. Barrichello's needs were an afterthought - and why not?!?! :)

Add to that unlimited testing at Fiorano and Mugello - testing that only Marlboro money could buy in such quanitity - and you had Schumacher being a very happy bunny indeed. :cat:

So, of course, he hates it now. :cry:

No tailor made tyres that he can test at whim. No un-even playing field where the dice were loaded firmly in his favour. :cry:

Now all he has is a level playing field where there's much closer competition (including driving competition that's superior to JV, Damon, Juan Pablo and DC) and he has the same thing as EVERYONE else! And...look at where he is without all those advantages... :down:

Cry me a river, Michael! :D


:wave:


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 18:13.


#890 fieraku

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:35

a) One flying lap on a set of tyres has been the norm in qualifying dating back to the 12 laps in 60 mins format. That is not new and remained the case even through the 'rocks' used in '05 and '07.

b) You guarantee, eh? I saw with my own eyes, Kobayashi rag a set of tyres in Barcelona (one of the toughest tracks in terms of deg). He ran a 10 or 11 lap stint with 6 of those laps within 1 second of the fastest lap of the day. They didn't fall apart. Your guarantee is about as valid as your earlier "undeniable proof".

c) How does the chart prove your point? Your statement was "and the lap times are almost identical throughout the race regardless of fuel loads"

Vettel, for example, has most laps in the 1:40's during the first stint, most laps in the 1:39's during the second stint, most laps in the 1:38's in the thrid stint and most laps in the 1:37's during the fourth stint. I am not a statistician but I think there might be a trend there!


I remember a lot of times the drivers would go for a second flying lap on the same set on the Bridgestones and even set a faster lap than the previous one.These tires simply do not last more than a lap,so we've NEVER had this and it is new,as we've never had tires this bad.
I don't even know why you're arguing this when it's obvious for all to see that after one Qualifying lap no extra performance can be gained thus the tire is finished.

Yes I do and would pay to see it,3-4 Quali laps say in Japan on the SS tires. Guarantee it will either melt,blow or come off the wheels with best case scenario being down to the canvas.

You accused me of selective cherry picking yet you're choosing the car that was in clean air and we're aware now how that's an advantage on the tires.
I say look at your chart from 4th on down and you'll see the similarities and the delta Schu was speaking of.


off to watch ManCity win the title

Edited by fieraku, 30 April 2012 - 18:37.


#891 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:58

Pecularities???

I have a feeling some of you need to rewind your tapes to the tire war years, that same argument is valid to those times then and those winning were nothing special. :rolleyes:

In order to finish first, you have always had to make sure you dont grain the tires by getting them outside their "operating window".


You think I didn't already know that? Maybe if you stopped talking down your nose at others you would have realised that's not the point - if the tyres aren't peculiar in any way then why is half the grid's pace fluctuating, almost at random from session to session, Saturday to Sunday, week to week? They're not as 'nothing to see here' normal as you'd make out, or else we wouldn't be seeing this level of flux in performance and the engineers would be more on top of the situation. Isn't that obvious? It's not that I think they're the first ever tyres that have needed to be 'switched on', but the extent to which their performance is affected by very minor climatic changes is not normal, and is disproportionate to the drivers' and team's lack of control over it.

#892 MidKnight

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:08

I say look at your chart from 4th on down and you'll see the similarities and the delta Schu was speaking of.


Cars that are running close to each other are setting close to the same times - what a shocker! Drivers having to decide when to push and when not to - based on the circumstance they find themselves in...Kimi trying to two stop and burning up his tires and getting passed by the three stopper cars...oh the HORROR!

It's the same for everybody. It's good for F1...I dare you to go look at the complaints about F1 from like 2001 to 2006...everyone crying about how processional F1 had become...DRS is an invention of the TWG which is the teams, not the FIA...these tires come from all the complaining in the past about no overtaking...well now you got what you want and your complaining. It's the same for everyone...adapt or lose to the teams that get on with it and figure it out - it's that simple.


#893 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:25

Cars that are running close to each other are setting close to the same times - what a shocker! Drivers having to decide when to push and when not to - based on the circumstance they find themselves in...Kimi trying to two stop and burning up his tires and getting passed by the three stopper cars...oh the HORROR!

It's the same for everybody. It's good for F1...I dare you to go look at the complaints about F1 from like 2001 to 2006...everyone crying about how processional F1 had become...DRS is an invention of the TWG which is the teams, not the FIA...these tires come from all the complaining in the past about no overtaking...well now you got what you want and your complaining. It's the same for everyone...adapt or lose to the teams that get on with it and figure it out - it's that simple.


:down:

As if there's no middle ground that can be found? It's like saying someone should stop whinging about the heat in the middle of Death Valley given that they've lived in Siberia their whole life.

#894 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:31

I have been watching F1 religiously since 1981 (with memories from my boyhood of 1979 and 1980) and I HATED 2001 - 2004.

I HATED it!

It's the worst Formula One I ever watched. Didn't even go to the Canadian Grand Prix those years!

I love it now. Again. And I don't have a problem paying for flight, hotel, tickets and food when Montreal arrives on the calendar. :up:

Good riddence to the shit processions we used to have 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago. May they NEVER come back!!!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 19:32.


#895 Afterburner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:56

Holy...this thread has made it to twenty-three pages? :drunk:

For me, this whole thing is a moot point: F1 is obviously not the sport it used to be. It's not supposed to be--it's meant to evolve. The name of the game changes every year and it's always been that way. And it seems that every year, someone or another is crying about the rules, regardless of what they are. I bet you could replace 'tyres' with 'aero', 'engines', 'DRS', or 'refuelling' and it would at least loosely resemble the sentiment of another thread we've seen on here somewhere already.

If you like the rules, then dandy. If you don't, then you can always stop watching F1 to make your opinion clear to the sport's leading figures. It seems to me that this is all there is to it, because F1 is not going to change in a hurry and belly-aching on an internet forum about how much better it used to be or how bad it is now isn't going to make watching races this year any better, now, is it? And I thought I usually overreacted to change...

For the record, I actually agree with the general sentiment in this thread and wish we could get drivers racing at 100% again rather than 'racing to a delta', which appears to be the latest popular collection of political buzzwords around here. I just don't bother whining about it on every thread possible because I know it's not going to accomplish anything. I'm still quite enjoying the races we've had thus far this year, thanks. :)

#896 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:00

Holy...this thread has made it to twenty-three pages? :drunk:

For me, this whole thing is a moot point: F1 is obviously not the sport it used to be. It's not supposed to be--it's meant to evolve. The name of the game changes every year and it's always been that way. And it seems that every year, someone or another is crying about the rules, regardless of what they are. I bet you could replace 'tyres' with 'aero', 'engines', 'DRS', or 'refuelling' and it would at least loosely resemble the sentiment of another thread we've seen on here somewhere already.

If you like the rules, then dandy. If you don't, then you can always stop watching F1 to make your opinion clear to the sport's leading figures. It seems to me that this is all there is to it, because F1 is not going to change in a hurry and belly-aching on an internet forum about how much better it used to be or how bad it is now isn't going to make watching races this year any better, now, is it? And I thought I usually overreacted to change...

For the record, I actually agree with the general sentiment in this thread and wish we could get drivers racing at 100% again rather than 'racing to a delta', which appears to be the latest popular collection of political buzzwords around here. I just don't bother whining about it on every thread possible because I know it's not going to accomplish anything. I'm still quite enjoying the races we've had thus far this year, thanks. :)


It's a forum for expressing opinions.

#897 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:00

I have been watching F1 religiously since 1981 (with memories from my boyhood of 1979 and 1980) and I HATED 2001 - 2004.

I HATED it!

It's the worst Formula One I ever watched. Didn't even go to the Canadian Grand Prix those years!

I love it now. Again. And I don't have a problem paying for flight, hotel, tickets and food when Montreal arrives on the calendar. :up:

Good riddence to the shit processions we used to have 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago. May they NEVER come back!!!


:up:

#898 Alx09

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:21

I want the balance we had in Melbourne 2009. That was some good racing. Few teams had DD, people raced close to each other. Overtakes all over the place, tyres that could be pushed with etc.

No DRS crap, only KERS = perfect.

Edited by Alx09, 30 April 2012 - 20:21.


#899 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:21

I love how the whole tire discussion is dismissed because the Bridgestone situation when there was a tire war between manufacturers. Yea, let's ignore all the rest. I love to read that many people (in forums and polls) agree with Michael. There is still hope.

P.S. Funny how many forget the many changes in F1 between 01-06. It's good to be blind.

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 April 2012 - 21:21.


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#900 g1n

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:36

....and then Rosberg went on to say this: http://www.planetf1....dn-t-be-better- :wave: