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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#951 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:15

That's going to damage Brundle's credibility more than Schumacher's, actually. Remember how Martin said that at least a world champion and a multiple race winner agreed with Michael?

OK, Massa is also multiple race winner? When I read this first I was thinking Alonso and Massa. And Webber didn't say he doesn't agree with MS. He say nothing really. He talk about pretty good show for the crowd(WWE). He doesn't agree or disagree. PR talk only. He didn't say , we push 100% in the race. He say, we do what we can do to make good show.

Paul Hembery:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99281
"I can see Michael's frustrations, but it is the sport that asks us," he said. "There is a strange misconception in that drivers don't push. All four winners were pushing and they were also quicker than their team-mates, so it's hard for me to understand that concept."

I will tell you Paul: clear air,free track. Your tyres doesn't like dirty air and fighting in column(group). This is the concept.

"We have limited to some extent what they can push but that doesn't mean they don't have an influence: there is no doubt [they count] and that's very important in a sport that should be about the drivers."

Thank you for admitting the obvious. You limited F1, you limited our Champions.

Edited by ivand911, 01 May 2012 - 19:29.


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#952 PretentiousBread

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:48

That's going to damage Brundle's credibility more than Schumacher's, actually. Remember how Martin said that at least a world champion and a multiple race winner agreed with Michael?


So you think Brundle made that up?

#953 baddog

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:50

That was ALL about tyres. Schumacher's Bridgestones were in much better shape than Alonso's Michelins in that last phase of the race.

Yes, and NOW that would mean he and 3 other cars would swallow Alonso without effort would it not?

#954 Dunder

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:38

Yes, and NOW that would mean he and 3 other cars would swallow Alonso without effort would it not?


On most tracks, yes.
Then again, Schumacher would have passed him easily on most tracks back in '05.

It was a superb defensive drive from Alosno and drivers not having the opportunity (at least nowhere near as often) to defend is one of the major drawbacks of the fast degrading tyres/DRS combo. With that said my mind is drawn to Singapore 2010 towards the end of the race when you just knew that Alonso was never going to have to defend because despite being clearly faster Vettel had no chance of getting on to the back of him.

I am resigned to the fact that the teams (and the FIA, of course) are not going to do anything serious in terms of reducing the effects aerodynamic wake - they had the perfect chance with the 2014 regulations and decided that the costs of developing cars built around Venturi tunnels was too great.

Given that, tyres which degrade at a faster rate than those used in 2005 and in 2010 is the only way I can see to produce decent racing. Despite being cast as a Pirelli shill, I have consistently stated that the current tyres degrade too quickly and have too narrow an operating window and there should be a happy medium somewhere that balances the 'purity' of durable/consistent tyres and the 'entertainment' provided by tyres that go off much more quickly.



#955 MP422

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:57

The bolded part says it all, really.


and the final sentence more importantly.

#956 engel

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:09

I've known you long enough to see that you are pushing some agenda of your own.


yes, I m in it for world domination to be honest :evil:

#957 pingu666

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:24

multiple race winner but not a f1 champion, of the current f1 drivers that would have to be webber or massa ?
heiki has 1 win, nico has 1, rest have none or are wdc's. if i remmbering correctly..


#958 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:28

Webber speaks, but I remain convinced that he, like Rosberg, has not thought this through.

Edited by Sakae, 01 May 2012 - 21:31.


#959 valachus

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:32

Bullet to head, comes to mind. :rotfl:

I'm impressed. Let's see..
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99247
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99288

Nico Rosberg believes that the challenges being thrown at drivers by the current Formula 1 tyre situation is good news for the sport.

Formula 1 drivers should be happy to accept the challenge posed by Pirelli's current generation of tyres because they are helping make the racing more exciting. That is the view of Mark Webber...

Next on the list of things which might make the sport/racing/show more exciting than it already is: a bearded woman driver.

Edited by valachus, 01 May 2012 - 21:33.


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#960 engel

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:38

multiple race winner but not a f1 champion, of the current f1 drivers that would have to be webber or massa ?
heiki has 1 win, nico has 1, rest have none or are wdc's. if i remmbering correctly..


I think Brundle said something along the lines of on the flight to the UK a WDC and multiple race winner shared Michael's concerns, it could be Hill and Coulthard for all we know.


Next on the list of things which might make the sport/racing/show more exciting than it already is: a bearded woman driver.

Bernie's sprinklers got dibs

Edited by engel, 01 May 2012 - 21:39.


#961 pingu666

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:53

true, if he ment ex f1 drivers
the old bridgestones did degrade, kubica in singapour, and kamui cut through the field on new tyres a couple of times.

#962 Menace

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:41

true, if he ment ex f1 drivers
the old bridgestones did degrade, kubica in singapour, and kamui cut through the field on new tyres a couple of times.


...and the Michelins produced marbleling off the racing line much more so then the current Pirellis.

So first the story was that we should take this theory as gospel because the drivers know much better then the rest of us... and now suddenly that more drivers and experts question the theory and comments, you say they must have not really think it through?

Ooook. :lol:

#963 fisssssi

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 23:43

What does Mark Webber think?


Webber hath spoken!

#964 pingu666

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:58

the thing with the bridgestones was, you would probably be better to 1 stop, than pit more and try and make up positions, they also had the tread depth to keep going for ages with good performance

#965 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:44

...and the Michelins produced marbleling off the racing line much more so then the current Pirellis.

So first the story was that we should take this theory as gospel because the drivers know much better then the rest of us... and now suddenly that more drivers and experts question the theory and comments, you say they must have not really think it through?

Ooook. :lol:

Neither Webber nor Rosberg are infallible in terms of looking at tire relate issues from long term impact on racing, and what they say is not necessarilly gospel. Webber always needs to say something, so what else is new, and Rosberg is bubbling with joy and could be forgiven for a short little while.

Today F1 is completely different sport? Well, who asked for it? I cannot speak for anyone else, but I didn’t. I do not want to see changes at the lead every time I turn around, because it’s just as boring as no changes at all, although, admittedly, by definition, later is contradiction, because if we have a “best guy”, well, he will be in the front most of the time ahead. That’s what best means as I understand it. I do not want tires to dominate racing discussions as much as it has. That’s not much to ask, is it?

Tires are not going to remedy sins committed in the past cumulatively in tech. spec for engines, body, and other areas. It opens gates to interesting discussions what a new CA should encompass.

Edited by Sakae, 02 May 2012 - 08:45.


#966 Kvothe

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 13:50

I think Brundle said something along the lines of on the flight to the UK a WDC and multiple race winner shared Michael's concerns, it could be Hill and Coulthard for all we know.



Bernie's sprinklers got dibs


His exact quote was:

On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits.


Unless Hill and Coulthard are in a position to be pushing F1 cars to their limits it looks incredibly unlikely that it was them..

Edited by Kvothe, 02 May 2012 - 13:51.


#967 engel

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 13:54

His exact quote was:

Unless Hill and Coulthard are in a position to be pushing F1 cars to their limits it looks incredibly unlikely that it was them..


great so I remembered wrong and he was talking to active F1 drivers ... hope he names them next broadcast

#968 Kvothe

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:04

great so I remembered wrong and he was talking to active F1 drivers ... hope he names them next broadcast


Also incredibly unlikely considering such words were clearly spoken in confidence. It certainly seems that for some reason drivers are unwilling or unable to speak out publicly about their feelings on the tyres. Of course they'll mention that its good for the show/audience or its a challenge but never how they personally feel. Whether this is because they don't wish to make themselves look uncompetitive relative their rivals, or there is/was an agreement not to badmouth the Pirelli tyres is anybodies guess.

#969 spacekid

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:41

Also incredibly unlikely considering such words were clearly spoken in confidence. It certainly seems that for some reason drivers are unwilling or unable to speak out publicly about their feelings on the tyres. Of course they'll mention that its good for the show/audience or its a challenge but never how they personally feel. Whether this is because they don't wish to make themselves look uncompetitive relative their rivals, or there is/was an agreement not to badmouth the Pirelli tyres is anybodies guess.


Agreed. Its at times like this I miss Jacques Villeneuve. He may have loved the tyres, he may have hated them (I suspect the latter) - at least you'd have known its what he really felt.

#970 ali_M

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:45

Also incredibly unlikely considering such words were clearly spoken in confidence. It certainly seems that for some reason drivers are unwilling or unable to speak out publicly about their feelings on the tyres. Of course they'll mention that its good for the show/audience or its a challenge but never how they personally feel. Whether this is because they don't wish to make themselves look uncompetitive relative their rivals, or there is/was an agreement not to badmouth the Pirelli tyres is anybodies guess.


Well, we all know how heavily groomed current F1 drivers are in the area of political correctness in what they say and how they behave. Many have commented on F1's sterile face in this very regard. I'm not at all surprised that all seems to be hunky-dory. In fact, I'd not at all be surprised if even Schumi himself talks the edge off his original comments. However, I'll NEVER forget his tone and expression after Bahrain. It was disturbing to watch for me, i.e., to see him so displeased about something as this. Anyway.....

#971 KateLM

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 18:01

Neither Webber nor Rosberg are infallible in terms of looking at tire relate issues from long term impact on racing, and what they say is not necessarilly gospel. Webber always needs to say something, so what else is new, and Rosberg is bubbling with joy and could be forgiven for a short little while.

You might as well have just written "they are wrong because they disagree with me", that's all your post is effectively saying. Webber isn't calling up the press to give his opinion on the tyres, like every other driver he was asked about them at a press briefing. And it's been a few weeks since China, I'm sure Rosberg has come down from Cloud 9 enough to give a measured opinion.

No driver is infallible on this issue, and that includes Schumacher. The tyres aren't even as bad as they were in the first few races in 2011 so I'm not sure why this has even suddenly become an issue. As the teams get on top of them it will become less of an issue as the season continues. For now, I'm leaning towards the 'deal with it' side of the argument, and I will stay there until I actually see some evidence that the tyres are directly affecting whether a win is deserved or not. Because to me, it's looked like the fastest driver/team combo has won 3 out of the first 4, with Alonso in Malaysia being down to the weather. Not exactly worthy of the WWE comparisons. If some teams are being too hard on their tyres compared to others then that is as much on them as it is Pirelli.

#972 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 18:18

You might as well have just written "they are wrong because they disagree with me", that's all your post is effectively saying.

Probably.

No driver is infallible on this issue, and that includes Schumacher.

Probably right, but if I would be a betting man, my money is on Schumacher.

The tyres aren't even as bad as they were in the first few races in 2011 so I'm not sure why this has even suddenly become an issue.

Unitential anomaly in 2011 that was fixed, 2012 is a design intent which may or may not be fixable under current technical normative stipulations. (If there is a will, of course, and I am not convinced yet there is). More struggles ahead are quite possible, but, I could be surprised, who knows.


As the teams get on top of them it will become less of an issue as the season continues. For now, I'm leaning towards the 'deal with it' side of the argument, and I will stay there until I actually see some evidence that the tyres are directly affecting whether a win is deserved or not. Because to me, it's looked like the fastest driver/team combo has won 3 out of the first 4, with Alonso in Malaysia being down to the weather. Not exactly worthy of the WWE comparisons. If some teams are being too hard on their tyres compared to others then that is as much on them as it is Pirelli.

Sorry but I disagree. For me it was more of resemblance draw of a ticket out of a hat, than fight of a car/driver v. a car/driver. Bullseye was the temp operating margin, and not everyone hit it, thus its little more complicated than simple proclamation that best man won!

Edited by Sakae, 02 May 2012 - 18:20.


#973 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 18:35

Hulk also use the word "challenge" as he described the 2012 tyres? Did Pirelli send them all directions how to talk about the tyres? Challenge, challenging? Is this is the only word F1 drivers know?
Hulk also said, sure we can't push 100% all the time, to preserve the tyres. We knew that already. He say last year was the same.

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 18:36.


#974 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 21:22

For me "challenge" as used by drivers is one of those weasel words for benefit of public consumption, as they really would like to say something else, but minding their good manners.



#975 F1EC

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:39

Umm, Pirelli have been asked to make tyres like this, do't blame them.


:up:

#976 PretentiousBread

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:02

Also incredibly unlikely considering such words were clearly spoken in confidence. It certainly seems that for some reason drivers are unwilling or unable to speak out publicly about their feelings on the tyres. Of course they'll mention that its good for the show/audience or its a challenge but never how they personally feel. Whether this is because they don't wish to make themselves look uncompetitive relative their rivals, or there is/was an agreement not to badmouth the Pirelli tyres is anybodies guess.


This...

For me "challenge" as used by drivers is one of those weasel words for benefit of public consumption, as they really would like to say something else, but minding their good manners.


And this.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to read between the lines of Webber and Rosberg's comments. How many drivers have actually come out and praised the tyres' handling/driving/racing characteristics? The praise is almost universal in terms of 'what a good job Pirelli have done for the show', but that's all you ever hear.

If a bunch of drivers came out and said that they're still on the ragged edge then fair enough, but I know we won't hear that because they aren't.



#977 fieraku

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:17

This...



And this.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to read between the lines of Webber and Rosberg's comments. How many drivers have actually come out and praised the tyres' handling/driving/racing characteristics? The praise is almost universal in terms of 'what a good job Pirelli have done for the show', but that's all you ever hear.

If a bunch of drivers came out and said that they're still on the ragged edge then fair enough, but I know we won't hear that because they aren't.


When we stopped hearing "push these 5-6-12 laps" it's when F1 died.

#978 black magic

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:34

nico is jsut trying to play mind games with michael.

play away junior sport. win your first gp and all of a sudden your the main man it seems.

#979 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:24

Schumacher visits Pirelli at Mugello

By Editor on Thursday, May 3, 2012

Photo credit: Mercedes AMG f1

Michael Schumacher paid a visit to the Pirelli motorhome at Mugello.

The seven time world champion was heavily critical of the Italian supplier’s 2012 tyres recently in Bahrain, but boss Paul Hembery had revealed that he had yet to get together to hear first-hand about Schumacher’s gripe.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said the Mercedes driver’s meeting with Pirelli lasted half an hour.

“I can imagine what was talked about,” Timo Glock grinned.

Hembery said: “Michael was with our technicians and Mercedes engineers, I do not know what was said.”

Another Pirelli employee insisted: “Nothing special to report.”

Hembery does, however, have some good news to break to Schumacher: “In 2013 our tyres will be even softer.

As for the extreme degradation, “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us”, Hembery insisted.
http://www.f1zone.ne...-mugello/13769/

Who wants softer tyres???? More fake races, drivers driving at 50%, more lottery? HRT first win. Because all other teams run out of tyres after 5 lap stints. Marussia came close second.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 14:27.


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#980 skid solo

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:31

Schumacher visits Pirelli at Mugello

By Editor on Thursday, May 3, 2012

Photo credit: Mercedes AMG f1

Michael Schumacher paid a visit to the Pirelli motorhome at Mugello.

The seven time world champion was heavily critical of the Italian supplier’s 2012 tyres recently in Bahrain, but boss Paul Hembery had revealed that he had yet to get together to hear first-hand about Schumacher’s gripe.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said the Mercedes driver’s meeting with Pirelli lasted half an hour.

“I can imagine what was talked about,” Timo Glock grinned.

Hembery said: “Michael was with our technicians and Mercedes engineers, I do not know what was said.”

Another Pirelli employee insisted: “Nothing special to report.”

Hembery does, however, have some good news to break to Schumacher: “In 2013 our tyres will be even softer.

As for the extreme degradation, “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us”, Hembery insisted.
http://www.f1zone.ne...-mugello/13769/

Who wants softer tyres???? More fake races, drivers driving at 50%, more lottery? HRT first win. Because all other teams run out of tyres after 5 lap stints. Marussia came close second.


I am just glad to see F1 making such an important contribution to the environment...



#981 Brandz07

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 18:18

Schumacher visits Pirelli at Mugello

By Editor on Thursday, May 3, 2012

Photo credit: Mercedes AMG f1

Michael Schumacher paid a visit to the Pirelli motorhome at Mugello.

The seven time world champion was heavily critical of the Italian supplier’s 2012 tyres recently in Bahrain, but boss Paul Hembery had revealed that he had yet to get together to hear first-hand about Schumacher’s gripe.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said the Mercedes driver’s meeting with Pirelli lasted half an hour.

“I can imagine what was talked about,” Timo Glock grinned.

Hembery said: “Michael was with our technicians and Mercedes engineers, I do not know what was said.”

Another Pirelli employee insisted: “Nothing special to report.”

Hembery does, however, have some good news to break to Schumacher: In 2013 our tyres will be even softer.

As for the extreme degradation, “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us”, Hembery insisted.
http://www.f1zone.ne...-mugello/13769/

Who wants softer tyres???? More fake races, drivers driving at 50%, more lottery? HRT first win. Because all other teams run out of tyres after 5 lap stints. Marussia came close second.



What the F***, whyyyyyyy?!

#982 PretentiousBread

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 18:25

What the F***, whyyyyyyy?!


If he means soft at opposed to 'stiff' then that's a good thing. However, I think he means soft as in 'even more unraceable'.

Maybe Paul Hembery has a fetish for high performance racing cars driving around on useless rubber and he gets off on it. That's my best guess.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 03 May 2012 - 18:28.


#983 baddog

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 19:55

See the “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us” comment is why I have a problem.. People say 'we would like tyres that are different' for various reasons and the politician's weasel answer is 'You want less exciting racing? what is wrong with you?'..

By automatically associating 'our tyres' with 'exciting racing' you stifle suggestions that things are not perfect without addressing people's actual point at all. Of course Michael Schumacher of all people does not want less exciting racing, he like all the greats thrives on track battles and stiff competition. Its insulting and dishonest for Paul to phrase it this way.

#984 Dunder

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 21:51

See the “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us” comment is why I have a problem.. People say 'we would like tyres that are different' for various reasons and the politician's weasel answer is 'You want less exciting racing? what is wrong with you?'..

By automatically associating 'our tyres' with 'exciting racing' you stifle suggestions that things are not perfect without addressing people's actual point at all. Of course Michael Schumacher of all people does not want less exciting racing, he like all the greats thrives on track battles and stiff competition. Its insulting and dishonest for Paul to phrase it this way.


It does raise an interesting question though.

What mechanism (in official terms) can/would the FIA be able to use if, from 2013 onwards, it wanted to reverse course and say that tyres should be more durable. Pirelli is the only major tyre maker interested in F1 ATM. When Bridgestone were the sole supplier they resisted calls for tyres that had wear rates that might (probably would) have brought negative publicity.


#985 black magic

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:38

fact is that none of us would contemplate going to a track day and then knowingly drive at 60 - 70% of our car or tyres ability.

we go, we drive at our best level, trying our level best to push our own equipment. - and thats why we come away exhilerated.

this is not tyre management. this is something else and as usual few have the guts to call it like it is

michael has managed fragile tyres and succeeded before - take imola was it 2005 or 2006 when he held alonso then sprinted prior to his stops.

sadly f1 is more about gimmocks than genuine racing - add drs to these tyres. add ti that half those that make it to q3 cant even be bothered having a fast lap shoot out. add it to insisting on taking the show to circuits where the stands remain embarassingly empty.

yes we love the unpredictabilty but equally we can see thatit is more due to a lottery on set ups and temps - and I mean lottery - rather than genuine closeness - and that I for one dont like and I doubt those at the sharp genuinely like it either

#986 Pamphlet

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:45

It does raise an interesting question though.

What mechanism (in official terms) can/would the FIA be able to use if, from 2013 onwards, it wanted to reverse course and say that tyres should be more durable. Pirelli is the only major tyre maker interested in F1 ATM. When Bridgestone were the sole supplier they resisted calls for tyres that had wear rates that might (probably would) have brought negative publicity.


Pirelli themselves have said that they would be willing to change the tyres if enough people (especially drivers) wanted them to.

#987 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 03:06

nico is jsut trying to play mind games with michael.

play away junior sport. win your first gp and all of a sudden your the main man it seems.

I haven't seen any evidence of "mind games" from Nico throughout his career, in fact I would say he is one of the most "I'll put up my hand and admit that" guys in F1. Sorry you seem to think having the audacity to beat a 7 time WDC is being cheeky and playing mind games and considering himself "the main man". At least that's how I read your sour rant.

I for one would like to see tyre wear that gave one and two stop strategies and let drivers push harder for longer. With all the passing opportunities provided by DRS, KERS and aero changes there doesn't really seem the need for pitstop overtaking anymore. A good old wheel to wheel battle with no holds barred would be better.

Edited by Muz Bee, 07 May 2012 - 03:56.


#988 Raelene

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:40

..I for one would like to see tyre wear that gave one and two stop strategies and let drivers push harder for longer. With all the passing opportunities provided by DRS, KERS and aero changes there doesn't really seem the need for pitstop overtaking anymore. A good old wheel to wheel battle with no holds barred would be better.


so you agree with what MSC has been saying then?

#989 pingu666

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:17

personaly im not sure how good a tyre pirelli could produce, if you want something much closer to a tyre war tyre (ie what they think will give best performance over a stint) as there recent history in lmp1/2 wasnt that great :/. and they would probably need entirely new tyres to make a big change aswell

http://www.youtube.c...j1j2.11.0...0.0.

we need tony stewart types in f1 :D

#990 Menace

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:23

So instead of "deltas" at 90%, now we are down to 60-70%? :lol:


From the other thread now locked, posted by AlexS since it is just as much relevant here;

http://www.auto123.c...go?artid=130534

By René Fagnan,
View author's other articles
Monday, April 25, 2011


The rapid degradation of certain Pirelli tires dramatically changed the issue of the inaugural three Grands Prix of the season for some drivers. But this is nothing new in Formula 1, as managing tire wear has often been the key to success.


The 1986 Grand Prix of Spain remains one of the great classic in Formula 1. The race held April 13 1986 at Jerez de la Frontera was the scene of an epic battle between Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet and Alain Prost.

Senna, driving the black and gold Lotus-Renault 98T, claimed pole position ahead of the Williams-Honda FW11s of Nelson Piquet and Nigel Mansell.

At the green, Senna motored into first place and led for the first 40 laps of the race. His Goodyear tires could make the distance, but the Brazilian had to drive cautiously while being fast at the same time! Meanwhile, Piquet ran into engine troubles.

Unhappy with second place and unable to catch Senna, Mansell opted to chance an unlikely gamble. Pitting for fresh rubber with just nine laps to go, he emerged over 20 seconds adrift of the still charging Senna.

On new rubber, Mansell passed Prost and then managed to catch Senna. The two ran together. Out of the last corner, Mansell got a much better exit. Senna could no longer put the power down as his tires were totally finished.

The two cars seemed to cross the line simultaneously.

It was a photo finish - and to Mansell’s dismay the photo proved Senna had actually got there first - the Brazilian took the third victory of his career by the slimmest of margins - just 0.014 seconds! We may well see another nail-biting finish like this one a bit later this year.


http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alain_Prost

Prost employed a smooth, relaxed style behind the wheel, deliberately modeling himself on personal heroes like Jackie Stewart and Jim Clark.[3] He was nicknamed "The Professor" for his intellectual approach to competition. Skilled at setting up his car for race conditions, Prost would often conserve his brakes and tyres early on in a race, leaving them fresher for a challenge at the end.[4]




Edited by Menace, 07 May 2012 - 06:24.


#991 pUs

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:46

So instead of "deltas" at 90%, now we are down to 60-70%? :lol:


From the other thread now locked, posted by AlexS since it is just as much relevant here;

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alain_Prost


I don't really get the obsession about "delta" this or that, there's always gonna be a limit. However, the fact that Alain and Ayrton (like all other racing drivers for that matter) had to "manage tire wear" is no excuse for accepting spec tires that doesn't match the level of performance of the current F1 cars. The tires are simply not good enough at the moment. In my view, it's perfectly OK that you can't do a whole race on one set of tires, but to have situations when you just can't push through a whole stint, even on low fuel levels, without being severly punished is not exciting at all.

I accept the fact that we'll probably never see a Hungary 98 situation again anyway, but with the current tires a scenario like that is not only impossible, it's absurd to even consider it. Can't happen, won't happen.

The tires have to be of a certain standard if racing like that is ever gonna happen again under normal weather conditions. And I'm not impressed by the Pirelli-guy latest comments, it's perfectly possible to enjoy exciting races and be critical of the current tire spec at the same time. He should try it.

Edited by pUs, 07 May 2012 - 06:56.


#992 Menace

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 07:07

I don't really get the obsession about "delta" this or that, there's always gonna be a limit. However, the fact that Alain and Ayrton (like all other racing drivers for that matter) had to "manage tire wear" is no excuse for accepting spec tires that doesn't match the level of performance of the current F1 cars. The tires are simply not good enough at the moment. In my view, it's perfectly OK that you can't do a whole race on one set of tires, but to have situations when you just can't push through a whole stint, even on low fuel levels, without being severly punished is not exciting at all.



But is that REALLY whats going on? Im not convinced as of yet, if it really was we would be hearing much more moaning outside of the Mercedes camp, and we simply are not. There's plenty of true racers on the grid that aren't afraid to tell it like it is, its not like they have been gagged despite the numerous innuendos in this thread? :confused:

Edited by Menace, 07 May 2012 - 07:07.


#993 Raelene

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 07:48

I don't really get the obsession about "delta" this or that, there's always gonna be a limit. However, the fact that Alain and Ayrton (like all other racing drivers for that matter) had to "manage tire wear" is no excuse for accepting spec tires that doesn't match the level of performance of the current F1 cars. The tires are simply not good enough at the moment. In my view, it's perfectly OK that you can't do a whole race on one set of tires, but to have situations when you just can't push through a whole stint, even on low fuel levels, without being severly punished is not exciting at all.
I accept the fact that we'll probably never see a Hungary 98 situation again anyway, but with the current tires a scenario like that is not only impossible, it's absurd to even consider it. Can't happen, won't happen.

The tires have to be of a certain standard if racing like that is ever gonna happen again under normal weather conditions. And I'm not impressed by the Pirelli-guy latest comments, it's perfectly possible to enjoy exciting races and be critical of the current tire spec at the same time. He should try it.



spot on

#994 pUs

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:25

But is that REALLY whats going on? Im not convinced as of yet, if it really was we would be hearing much more moaning outside of the Mercedes camp, and we simply are not. There's plenty of true racers on the grid that aren't afraid to tell it like it is, its not like they have been gagged despite the numerous innuendos in this thread? :confused:


Perhaps not, I'm not 100% convinced either and I'll be very happy to be proven wrong. It's still early days, but the inconsistency shown by the whole field so far is a bit scary.

#995 spacekid

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 14:34

Just a thought on the fact drivers used to have to manage tyres in the past.

Yes they did, but largely through experience and a knowledge of how hard to push and when. Now the teams are much more involved, with sensors all over the cars and teams of people working at computers to calculate the optimal race times and strategies. It's reached the point where some drivers are being told over the radio how to drive certain corners and where to brake.

It feels to me that the difference is that drivers used to have to manage their tyres, now they are told what lap times to drive acting out computer simulations of a race. I know a lot of people will disagree, but sometimes I'd like to see a bit less hi-tech in F1.

MotoGP seems to manage this aspect of making the driver manage his own race much better. On the other hand I can see the point that its a team sport and the team should have every input into how their car is raced. I'd just like to feel the driver is making the decisions how hard to push and how to manage the tyres.

Edited by spacekid, 07 May 2012 - 14:36.


#996 ali_M

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 14:47

Just a thought on the fact drivers used to have to manage tyres in the past.

Yes they did, but largely through experience and a knowledge of how hard to push and when. Now the teams are much more involved, with sensors all over the cars and teams of people working at computers to calculate the optimal race times and strategies. It's reached the point where some drivers are being told over the radio how to drive certain corners and where to brake.

It feels to me that the difference is that drivers used to have to manage their tyres, now they are told what lap times to drive acting out computer simulations of a race. I know a lot of people will disagree, but sometimes I'd like to see a bit less hi-tech in F1.

MotoGP seems to manage this aspect of making the driver manage his own race much better. On the other hand I can see the point that its a team sport and the team should have every input into how their car is raced. I'd just like to feel the driver is making the decisions how hard to push and how to manage the tyres.


It's not so much that as much as an apparently excessive compromise on potential race pace and the ability to genuinely push at some stages of the race. I remember Alonso in 2010 talking about races that he ran at qualifying type pace for him. He was pushing that hard from beginning to end. Of course, the more typical thing is that there would be a lot of pushing in the first half or so and then car management in the latter stages. No more of that now. It's now all about tyre management from start to finish. Nothing else really. The drivers don't have to push themselves really.

#997 spacekid

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 15:02

It's not so much that as much as an apparently excessive compromise on potential race pace and the ability to genuinely push at some stages of the race. I remember Alonso in 2010 talking about races that he ran at qualifying type pace for him. He was pushing that hard from beginning to end. Of course, the more typical thing is that there would be a lot of pushing in the first half or so and then car management in the latter stages. No more of that now. It's now all about tyre management from start to finish. Nothing else really. The drivers don't have to push themselves really.


Yes and I would prefer more durable tyres that can be raced to the limits of the drivers ability for feeling grip; but with tyres that need managing I'm saying that it isn't like it was in the past, because in the past the drivers were much more in control of how they raced the tyres. This isn't like the era of Prost managing tyres. I'd rather see the drivers controlling the situation more than teams of computer analysts. That would make the 'excitement' feel more 'genuine' to me.

Edited by spacekid, 07 May 2012 - 15:03.


#998 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 15:03

In the past you had management of tires and the car, because they were at their top performance and the car couldn't take the 2 hour/300+km beating. Nowadays, you know the car and tires CAN DO better. That's the difference. You know from the tire wars that they (the tire industry) can produce tires that are breathtakingly quick. But it is a CHOICE to give the best drivers in the world a pack of chewing gum wrapped around their rims.

Yesterday was SBK on Eurosport. Got cancelled due to tires in combo with rain if I recall the Eurosport commentator correctly... Guess the brand of the tires... yup, Pirelli.

#999 ivand911

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 15:49

Make the tyres last 15-20 laps before they are finished(go to the threads) . But, 15-20 laps of hard driving on the limit. Driver can manage the tyre to last 15,16,17,18,19 or 20 laps. You still have 2 pitstops at least and you have racing.

Edited by ivand911, 07 May 2012 - 15:50.


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#1000 finignig

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:52

What happens if the current “Racing” situation stays the same through out the season, Will the teams at season end be at opposite ends regarding the tires? Surely the top teams wont like having their car “matter less” and the races more open to the smaller teams just because of tires?! While the midfield and backend will back the current tires used?