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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#1101 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:33

Oh so you can't drop out of FOTA and out of the RRA and spend a ton of cash and blow everyone away anymore? You have to actually get your car setup right? Yeah what a farce! Oh you mean you can't have bespoke Bridgestone made for your car even though Bridgestone is supposed to be supplying everyone good tires and turn F1 into a parade for 5 years in a row anymore? Yeah this really sucks! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Stupid strawman argument. He never said any of that. If you can't at least acknowledge the farcical side of Pirelli's control tyre, despite the amount of negative publicity and information that has come out about them, then you'll never understand why people are complaining until the conventional wisdom dictates that they're bad for the sport and you too tow along.

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#1102 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:34

RTL pre-race? And he was only half-joking.


LOL, I'l dl it, thx


#1103 JV97

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:37

Strange one today. For once, I got the impression that a lot of drivers were really pushing today. Others were babying things a little. Different approaches is what's needed.

Then you have Williams who have been deliberately engineering towards the tyres, clearly made a good job of it and reaped the benefits.

Hamilton managed to pass a lot of cars, followed Massa and others for quite a while but still had tyres left.

Would love to know how much anyone was pushing today. Maybe it was all still 'granny' stuff despite appearances.



#1104 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:43

Stupid strawman argument. He never said any of that. If you can't at least acknowledge the farcical side of Pirelli's control tyre, despite the amount of negative publicity and information that has come out about them, then you'll never understand why people are complaining until the conventional wisdom dictates that they're bad for the sport and you too tow along.


It's the same for everyone...just like the RRA was supposed to be. Webber had a bad race so now it's his turn to complain. The man on pole just won the race...something that happens on this track most of all. You people claim it's a lottery...well guess what it's called getting the car right. But you know maybe Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes can get preferential deals in the new concord out spend everyone and turn F1 back into the parade you all love...

#1105 BiH

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:53

from viewers perspective its awesome to have 5 different winners in 5 races.....

but being big manufacturer investing $300-400+ million into season and getting beat by teams that have budget $100 million is not good in long run

think a storm will start brewing soon if this continues like this

Edited by BiH, 13 May 2012 - 18:54.


#1106 Timstr11

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:10

The Pirellis seem to be favouring different drivers in different cars at different tracks at different temperatures in a way not seen before in my 20 years of following F1 closely.
Don't know what chemicals Pirelli have put into their compounds this year, but it looks like it has made the tyre behaviour virtually unpredictable and random if you don't have the right chassis. And teams are no where near understanding what Pirelli requires and I don't expect them to anytime soon.

Currently there's only one team who's chassis seems to favour the Pirellis best, and that is Lotus.
I read that Lotus generates downforce in a different way and looks like it's in a way that works the Pirellis best.

Teams will either have to work out how Lotus' aero works or start pressuring Pirelli for different tyres next year.
It might be easier to get an understanding of Lotus' aero philosophy, rather than trying to understand these pesky Pirellis.

Who's Lotus' chief aerodynamicist by the way? I'm sure many top teams will try to poach him.



#1107 Massa_f1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:17

from viewers perspective its awesome to have 5 different winners in 5 races.....

but being big manufacturer investing $300-400+ million into season and getting beat by teams that have budget $100 million is not good in long run

think a storm will start brewing soon if this continues like this



As a viewer it is good. However i don't like the reason for it. if it carrys on like this you may well see a different winner at nearly every GP this year. The sad thing is it is not because of car or driver performance either. tyres is all you will here every weekend to the end of the season.

Who knows which team and driver will have the best set of tyres on the car at the next race!

#1108 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:34

The Pirellis seem to be favouring different drivers in different cars at different tracks at different temperatures in a way not seen before in my 20 years of following F1 closely.


And that's a headache for the teams and driver. No consistency, practically a trial and error in getting it "right".

#1109 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:59

Mark Webber had some very heavy criticism of Pirelli in his BBC interview.


Webber stating the bl00dy obvious. ;) No doubt the naysayers and Pirelli, will claim drivers can push and the tyres are robust enough to handle it. :rolleyes: TBH many of us were saying what is now common knowledge since Australia last year. Why some people are only noticing now, simply defies belief. The tyres are a pile of junk and an anathema to racing. Gerald Ratner killed Ratner jewellers and Hembury if he continues down this absurd path, will do irrevocable damage to the Pirelli brand. His self denial and ego knows no bound. If I didn't know any better, I would have been convinced due to his stubbornness he was a Yorkshireman. :lol:


#1110 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:04

Maybe they only make a few sets of "good" tyres for each race weekend and select a random driver out of the better teams to give them to. :D

#1111 Kvothe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:13

Nice one :up:

Did you hear Brundle before the show started? He mentioned again about his conversation he had with one of the drivers on how rubbish the tyres are - the one who said about his granny being able to drive the car (almost certainly Webber) - and then went on to say that he heard the same driver coming out defending the tyres later "because he had to tow the corporate line". Brundle has been Pirelli's biggest advocate but even he can see the major downsides of them.


Mark had one really good line:

When you're out of position you have to do the longest possible stint and conserve your tyres, and then when you try to catch people you rtyres just get killed: Its a chicken and egg, if you push past them you've got to commit to another stop.

mystery wise pace was....(shakes head)... I was stuck behind a force india..and you could see the McLaren's weren't doing anything, Seb is just chipping away..nothing special its just amazing how the tables have turned.

The guys are saying use all of your KERS on the full lap and its like you can't drive much slower you know...if you push you gotta pit...
Its a new way...its good for the fans if they like it then great but it makes it a bit more challenging for us in different ways.


Edited by Kvothe, 13 May 2012 - 20:31.


#1112 Massa_f1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:22

Maybe they only make a few sets of "good" tyres for each race weekend and select a random driver out of the better teams to give them to. :D



haha That very point has been talked about on the conspiracy thread. I wouldent be supirsed if there is something along those lines going on.

#1113 JV97

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:30

That would seem a valid point about the Lotus downforce given how they have such high top speed compared to other Renaults

#1114 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:16

This is not F1. This is a big made show for spectators who don't know much about F1. Pirelli clearly sucks. - http://www.facebook.com/MercAMGF1fans#!...142110035921271

#1115 ali_M

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:32

Webber stating the bl00dy obvious.;) No doubt the naysayers and Pirelli, will claim drivers can push and the tyres are robust enough to handle it. :rolleyes: TBH many of us were saying what is now common knowledge since Australia last year. Why some people are only noticing now, simply defies belief. The tyres are a pile of junk and an anathema to racing. Gerald Ratner killed Ratner jewellers and Hembury if he continues down this absurd path, will do irrevocable damage to the Pirelli brand. His self denial and ego knows no bound. If I didn't know any better, I would have been convinced due to his stubbornness he was a Yorkshireman. :lol:


You write with wisdom on this issue. :up: :up: :up:

Edited by ali_M, 13 May 2012 - 21:32.


#1116 dweller23

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:54

Small info on why Williams suddenly lapped Red Bull - while change of nose cost Webber a lot of time, all the drivers lost most of the time after their first stop when between them and top4 there were 2 cars which didn't make a pitstop - Kovalainen and Senna. Kovalainen, who was in front in P5, has a slow car even on fresh rubber, not to mention 15 lap old tyres where everyone else has fresh ones.

Additionally, Webber was stuck in traffic for the most part of the race and with being slow in straight line there wasn't much he could've done.

Williams showed very good pace in both Australia (matching Red Bulls pace early on, but then after a mistake getting stuck behind a Ferrari for Maldonado) and Malaysia (Williams in clear air was the fastest apart from Webber). This wasn't a "lucky" result. The only luck that Williams had was that Hamilton didn't start anywhere near the front. Both Williams and Sauber had caught up with top 4 teams. As did Lotus, however in their case it's easier to understand, as they had similar situation in 2010.

And we also have to remember that all cars were designed to cope with those tyres. There's no lottery.

#1117 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:21

Mark had one really good line:


Just watched this. Wow, great, honest stuff from Webber and then Jake Humphrey and co completely failed to even acknowledge what he was talking about and talked instead about something vaguely relevant but no where near as important, even though Lee McKenzie was switched on and recognised he's basically having his own anti-Pirelli rant. I wonder how many drivers will have to publicly state that they're not driving anywhere near their limits, before the media, and the powers that be take this more seriously?

#1118 fieraku

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:32

Why do they keep saying it's great for the fans and that's what they want? :mad: Two polls here showed that most fans hate this "Freak Show".

Good on Web to speak up,even though he just said what we've been saying here for ages.

#1119 rhukkas

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:39

Why do they keep saying it's great for the fans and that's what they want? :mad: Two polls here showed that most fans hate this "Freak Show".

Good on Web to speak up,even though he just said what we've been saying here for ages.


because most fans don't frequent forums. Most F1 fans are casuals who don't have a large interest in the intricacies of motorsport.

"oh look car goes past another car that's AMAZING!" etc.. etc...

You, like me, are in the minority. F1 will happily loose a few thousand fans to gain another million. And you either accept that or not. Plenty of other just as good motorsport series to watch.

Edited by rhukkas, 13 May 2012 - 22:43.


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#1120 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:48

Why do they keep saying it's great for the fans and that's what they want? :mad: Two polls here showed that most fans hate this "Freak Show".

Good on Web to speak up,even though he just said what we've been saying here for ages.


To be fair, the polls were both very close, and the tiny sample from this forum isn't representative of what the majority thinks, but as the Ragged Edge says, the majority are like a herd of sheep anyway, and will get steered in whatever way conventional wisdom dictates. I think if the media fed the audience constant information like what Webber and Schumacher are saying then this brand of tyre would cease to be 'what the fans want'. As it stands though, Schumacher and Webber are seen as being a bit left field and their views aren't being given much credence. At least influential pundits like Brundle and Mark Hughes are more understanding, so it's a start.

#1121 Daniel Lester

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:02

Certainly different, not sure I like it. The tyres, DRS and the increasingly spec formula 1 cars will make for a close season, variety of winners but probably won't be a classic championship as the contenders will rarely go head to head for any length of time.

It has gone from one extreme to other other very quickly and the sport has taken the cheaper options for making the sport closer and more changeable in order to preserve the teams.

I don't pretend to have the answer on how to reach a middle ground between 2004 or 2009 and this year

#1122 Neophiliac

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:02

Around mid race? And there were plenty more,actually the whole McLaren radio com was tires,tires,tires.
[bottom to top]


Pit » Hamilton: "Excellent. That's good to know."

Hamilton: "I'm saving tyres."

Pit » Hamilton: "This pace is okay for now."

Hamilton: "Please let me know if the pace I'm doing is acceptable."



I have no idea how anyone can mount a defence of the current F1 show in light of the above. Hamilton, the undoubtedly immense talent that he is, has been totally kneecapped. How can anyone be happy about this?

What are we watching this sport for? Is unpredictability alone enough to keep people sated? I confess to being completely baffled.

#1123 pUs

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:18

I have no idea how anyone can mount a defence of the current F1 show in light of the above. Hamilton, the undoubtedly immense talent that he is, has been totally kneecapped. How can anyone be happy about this?

What are we watching this sport for? Is unpredictability alone enough to keep people sated? I confess to being completely baffled.


Well, F1 is only entertainment, after all. Just like Wrestling. And if you think otherwise your're simply misinformed. Paul knows what's best for you :up:

#1124 ali_M

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:21

Well, F1 is only entertainment, after all. Just like Wrestling. And if you think otherwise your're simply misinformed. Paul knows what's best for you :up:


It's interesting that when F1's popularity grew and grew it was about the drivers/teams getting on with their racing while the fans watched the spectacle. Now, quite bizarrely, it's about the fans being pleased and the drivers/teams doing things the way the fans want. Oh what a mistake!!

#1125 trapperjohn

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:45

And is that the F1 you want? A sport where each week you have no idea who is going to be competitive, where anyone can win? Where one week you might finish 12th and two minutes behind and the next week you thrash everyone on the track?


That is exactly the F1 i want

#1126 Timstr11

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:15

Horner: Unpredictability will continue
One thing he says puzzles me. And that is that aerodynamics matter less.
I'm not so sure that is the case. Aerodynamics are a big factor in how the car moves on track, which ultimately influences the tyres.

#1127 Dunder

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:38

Horner: Unpredictability will continue
One thing he says puzzles me. And that is that aerodynamics matter less.
I'm not so sure that is the case. Aerodynamics are a big factor in how the car moves on track, which ultimately influences the tyres.


The tyres have such a narrow range of operation (the medium tyre is said to offer peak grip at 105 deg C, work well between 100 deg C and 110 deg C but drops off substantially outside that range).

When Q1 starts, you are locked in to suspension settings, camber settings and other parameters which affect the loading going through the tyre and how that load is spread across the surface. Therefater you only have front wing adjustments, tyre pressures and the driver to control/affect those loadings and the heat being produced.

A relatively small change in conditions/track temperature is enough to make it very difficult to stay in that range and maintain competitive lap times. This is especially true when you have to use another compound which only works in another temperature range.

These are not characteristics that a control tyre should have in my view. The optimum temperature range is quite easy for Pirelli to control and is a product of the compound(s). The deliberate narrowing of these ranges is what Pirelli must be referring to when they talked about "spicing up" the racing.

If you are exerting the huge loads on a tyre through a corner like T3 at Barcelona (the Red Bulls were at full throttle in 2011) and the track temperature is only a few degrees higher than you were expecting then it follows that a lower optimal temperature range makes it much more difficult to prevent the most limited tyre (front-left at Barcelona) from overheating and at the other end of the scale keeping the least limited tyre (rear-right at Barcelona) up to temperature.

Edited by Dunder, 14 May 2012 - 14:45.


#1128 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:50

Horner: Unpredictability will continue
One thing he says puzzles me. And that is that aerodynamics matter less.
I'm not so sure that is the case. Aerodynamics are a big factor in how the car moves on track, which ultimately influences the tyres.


But what he says makes sense. The Pirellis limit the performance of the cars. It seems there is a threshold when too efficient aero becomes counter productive, and the only thing that counts is suspension, at least it is the most important. Top teams have shelved there upgrades to work on tyre management, as I read.

Edited by Szoelloe, 14 May 2012 - 14:51.


#1129 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:00

Parallel between the last non-refueling era is 1993. But then we had active suspension to compensate for the tire loads while the car gets lighter. Maybe we should try the 1993 Williams with these tires.;)

#1130 fieraku

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:11

I have no idea how anyone can mount a defence of the current F1 show in light of the above. Hamilton, the undoubtedly immense talent that he is, has been totally kneecapped. How can anyone be happy about this?

What are we watching this sport for? Is unpredictability alone enough to keep people sated? I confess to being completely baffled.

:up: I love when people see the TRUE light not the one Paul&Bernie are selling.

People say they love unpredictability :rolleyes: :stoned: :drunk:
Imagine if in Football they introduced a ball that when you kick it left it goes right and when kicked right goes straight,you get the point. All to make the game exciting from the dull 0-0 draws we have now,and bring the teams and players closer all for the SHOW.
Here in US people hate Soccer coz it's boring.

Now imagine Salamanca beating Real Madrid 27-23 with this new ball.A GREAT SHOW RIGHT?
>..............< Williams beating X big Team +45sec(and there are 68 overtakes) with these new tires.A GREAT SHOW RIGHT?

It is FAKE because neither Madrid nor X big Team can show their full Team potential as well as players/drivers TRUE talent.

But when we go to the last match/race we'll have 7clubs/teams with a chance........yayyyyyyy.......I'm gonna email Platini my "dream" cos football is booooooooring. :drunk: I want 78 goals a game

#1131 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:15

I have no idea how anyone can mount a defence of the current F1 show in light of the above. Hamilton, the undoubtedly immense talent that he is, has been totally kneecapped. How can anyone be happy about this?

What are we watching this sport for? Is unpredictability alone enough to keep people sated? I confess to being completely baffled.



But until the era of refueling and hard rubber F1 was always about managing your resources and spending them when they give you the biggest advantage.

Drivers have had to manage their fuel use for decades. Do you how many drivers ran out of fuel on the last lap in the 80's and early 90's? Even now they can't go balls to the walls for the whole race even if the tires were removed from the equation.

Same thing for tires - Prost, Senna and all the boys had to look after their tires using them when they needed and managing the rest of the time, right up till the tire wars basically removed rubber from the strategy.

We could always go back to refueling and take the tires out of the equation - and then you get 66 qualifying laps and the race decided solely by who gets away with blocking in the pit lane and who doesn't.

Edited by Pudu, 14 May 2012 - 15:16.


#1132 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:19

Not quite true. In the Prost/Senna period, that was the max the tires could give. Now you know tires can be better.

I posted it elsewhere, but the tires are the new refuelling. When a tire hit the cliff, it is just like are having fuel pickup problems due to an empty tank. I think 3-4 stops are to much to follow a race without Live Timing. I also have no clue who can make progress or is to be expected to make a move.

For all, the race directing could be a whole lot better. The info on the tv-feed is next to useless.

#1133 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:24

Not quite true. In the Prost/Senna period, that was the max the tires could give. Now you know tires can be better.

I posted it elsewhere, but the tires are the new refuelling. When a tire hit the cliff, it is just like are having fuel pickup problems due to an empty tank. I think 3-4 stops are to much to follow a race without Live Timing. I also have no clue who can make progress or is to be expected to make a move.

For all, the race directing could be a whole lot better. The info on the tv-feed is next to useless.



Completely agree... tires CAN be better. But so can aero, engine, fuel, just about everything. F1 has long since reached the limits of what is safe/practical. These things are limited artificially for many different reasons - but that applies to every aspect of the sport. How about telling the engineers they have to go get a good night's sleep?

If you want to race anything that you can engineer you're looking at completely different tracks cars, etc than what we have today.

And it would no longer be a Formula.

Edited by Pudu, 14 May 2012 - 15:25.


#1134 fieraku

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:25

Horner: Unpredictability will continue
One thing he says puzzles me. And that is that aerodynamics matter less.
I'm not so sure that is the case. Aerodynamics are a big factor in how the car moves on track, which ultimately influences the tyres.


He added teams up and down the pit lane were confused by what was going on.

Horner said: "We've seen the spotlight on different cars at different times.

"Is it conditions, is it track type, is it temperature, is it car characteristic, is it the driver?


Here's your answer Horner. from another thread

This year the only thing that is making these "surprising" teams suddenly become winners and get podiums is the tires and lucking into the sweet spot,the teams might as well fire everyone and hire the best weather team of meteorologists money can buy and tire engineers as well. Engines/gearboxes/setup and everything else means nothing if the temperature rises by a degree or there's a cloud overhead.



#1135 frot

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:44

But until the era of refueling and hard rubber F1 was always about managing your resources and spending them when they give you the biggest advantage.

Drivers have had to manage their fuel use for decades. Do you how many drivers ran out of fuel on the last lap in the 80's and early 90's? Even now they can't go balls to the walls for the whole race even if the tires were removed from the equation.

Same thing for tires - Prost, Senna and all the boys had to look after their tires using them when they needed and managing the rest of the time, right up till the tire wars basically removed rubber from the strategy.

We could always go back to refueling and take the tires out of the equation - and then you get 66 qualifying laps and the race decided solely by who gets away with blocking in the pit lane and who doesn't.


I agree with this entirely. F1 was about aero for a long time but it has become so bad and expensive to develop that it priced the midfield teams out of any sort of success barring an innovation such as Brawn had with the DDD. It's a more level playing field now. You can no longer get away with a mistake in the pits or with strategy and come back to win because your car is so much faster than everyone else. To win in this F1 the team has to perform the best all round over the race. And that's the way it should be.

And don't worry the various RBR, Merc, Ferrari and Macca fanboys who are moaning because someone else other than them is getting onto the top step, there's absolutely bound to be a switch and a more evident focus from those teams in tyre management.

And BTW, I'm a Hamilton fan myself.

#1136 Timstr11

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:44

The tyres have such a narrow range of operation (the medium tyre is said to offer peak grip at 105 deg C, work well between 100 deg C and 110 deg C but drops off substantially outside that range).

When Q1 starts, you are locked in to suspension settings, camber settings and other parameters which affect the loading going through the tyre and how that load is spread across the surface. Therefater you only have front wing adjustments, tyre pressures and the driver to control/affect those loadings and the heat being produced.

A relatively small change in conditions/track temperature is enough to make it very difficult to stay in that range and maintain competitive lap times. This is especially true when you have to use another compound which only works in another temperature range.

But Williams was quick from Friday onwards, and were not affected by the change in conditions. Changing conditions is not the whole story. Some cars even have trouble getting into the zone, even if they have all the setup possibilities available. Then the same car goes to the next track and bam, they're in the zone the whole weekend.

#1137 Timstr11

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:48

But what he says makes sense. The Pirellis limit the performance of the cars. It seems there is a threshold when too efficient aero becomes counter productive, and the only thing that counts is suspension, at least it is the most important. Top teams have shelved there upgrades to work on tyre management, as I read.

If true then it's even worse then I thought. The tyre can basically nullify your aero advantage to a significant extent.
These are voodoo tyres.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 May 2012 - 15:50.


#1138 gricey1981

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 15:52

It is a different sport from the bridgestone days.

But if not for few team mistakes, Hamilton ( one of the more aggressive drivers) would be leading the championship on these "pancake" tires.

Williams have improved immensely from last year.

As it stands you have Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi leading the wdc. how would it be any different with bridgestones.

Hamilton did 30 laps on the primes in traffic for some of it. They cant be that bad.



#1139 sharo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:04

But what he says makes sense. The Pirellis limit the performance of the cars. It seems there is a threshold when too efficient aero becomes counter productive, and the only thing that counts is suspension, at least it is the most important. Top teams have shelved there upgrades to work on tyre management, as I read.

I was thinking about writing something similar.
From the outside this year seems cars are much closer and almost equal. This could be due to2 reasons:
- the restrictions and forced parameters have narrowed the designers so much that none of them can think about something different and all come to very identical solutions
- the tyres limit the cars from reaching their own top and create the false impression of equality.

Maybe the combo of both is the complex factor but I don't think cars are so much equal bu design and specific capabilities. Simply everything is tuned down.

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#1140 Neophiliac

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:12

But until the era of refueling and hard rubber F1 was always about managing your resources and spending them when they give you the biggest advantage.

Drivers have had to manage their fuel use for decades. Do you how many drivers ran out of fuel on the last lap in the 80's and early 90's? Even now they can't go balls to the walls for the whole race even if the tires were removed from the equation.

Same thing for tires - Prost, Senna and all the boys had to look after their tires using them when they needed and managing the rest of the time, right up till the tire wars basically removed rubber from the strategy.

We could always go back to refueling and take the tires out of the equation - and then you get 66 qualifying laps and the race decided solely by who gets away with blocking in the pit lane and who doesn't.


I think we've gone over this already. The point is not to abolish "preservation techniques" as a way to victory. The point is to present drivers and teams with a choice. E.g., "you can go balls to the wall and make 3 pitstops or drive conservatively and have 1 or 2" Or: "you can go balls to the wall all race, but as a compromise you'll start heavier than the others or you can take out a bit of fuel, but will need to conserve at some point in the race and count on your ability to defend." That's just not true today: the only remotely plausible choice is tiptoeing around.

Ultimately, it is about finding that right balance. We all dislike processional races. But a lot of us equally (if not more) dislike F1 being turned into a total lottery. Sure, it's "the same for everybody". But an actual lottery is also "same for everybody". You could, e.g., throw a dice to decide the grid, and it would be "same for everybody." Or you could turn on track-side sprinklers at one corner of the track at a random time, and if someone got caught out - well, tough luck, but "same for everybody." This would make for a spectacle, but not a sporting competition.

I would say that what we want - and indeed the challenge that Martin Whitmarsh had in mind when he asked Pirelli for one - is to avoid a situation where there is a single dominant strategy in the race and only a single path to victory. This is really hard to achieve, and Pirelli, I would say, are failing miserably. More than that, they went at the challenge from the wrong angle. What they should have done is create tyres that get you to the finish in approximately the same time on a 2 and 3 stop strategy (or, with a different mix of compounds, on a 1 and 3 stop strategy). That's a good challenge to have - both for the teams and for the fans. What they have done instead is simply to create really crappy tyres that are so utterly unpredictable that no team is able to extract consistent performance. That's emphatically not what the doctor ordered.

#1141 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:21

I think we've gone over this already. The point is not to abolish "preservation techniques" as a way to victory. The point is to present drivers and teams with a choice. E.g., "you can go balls to the wall and make 3 pitstops or drive conservatively and have 1 or 2" Or: "you can go balls to the wall all race, but as a compromise you'll start heavier than the others or you can take out a bit of fuel, but will need to conserve at some point in the race and count on your ability to defend." That's just not true today: the only remotely plausible choice is tiptoeing around.

Ultimately, it is about finding that right balance. We all dislike processional races. But a lot of us equally (if not more) dislike F1 being turned into a total lottery. Sure, it's "the same for everybody". But an actual lottery is also "same for everybody". You could, e.g., throw a dice to decide the grid, and it would be "same for everybody." Or you could turn on track-side sprinklers at one corner of the track at a random time, and if someone got caught out - well, tough luck, but "same for everybody." This would make for a spectacle, but not a sporting competition.

I would say that what we want - and indeed the challenge that Martin Whitmarsh had in mind when he asked Pirelli for one - is to avoid a situation where there is a single dominant strategy in the race and only a single path to victory. This is really hard to achieve, and Pirelli, I would say, are failing miserably. More than that, they went at the challenge from the wrong angle. What they should have done is create tyres that get you to the finish in approximately the same time on a 2 and 3 stop strategy (or, with a different mix of compounds, on a 1 and 3 stop strategy). That's a good challenge to have - both for the teams and for the fans. What they have done instead is simply to create really crappy tyres that are so utterly unpredictable that no team is able to extract consistent performance. That's emphatically not what the doctor ordered.



I'd argue that the so called lottery aspect has more to do with teams coming to terms with a new situation - new aero, new tires. It would happen with any major shake up. I don't expect there to be 20 different race winners this season.



#1142 Sakae

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:27

I feel empty about November and WCC/WDC. Somehow it doesn't feel right that best man or team will win; more the luckies who grabbed the points. The only thing we can determine is, that Pirelli are getting their name in headlines daily for lot of free brand recognition advertising.

Edited by Sakae, 14 May 2012 - 16:29.


#1143 RealRacing

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:35

I know this has been said a million times already in different threads regarding this subject, but I will try to make it simple, again:

Tyre management in the 80s (or whenever) NOT EQUAL to delta driving in 2012. Yes drivers had to manage tyres in the past but only if they went outside the stint window. If the tyres were designed for 20 laps, they could drive at close to 100% for those 20 laps. If for some reason they changed strategy or whatever and wanted to go longer on those same tyres, of course they had to start managing and the tyres could not be pushed at 100% anymore. But they DID NOT have to drive to a delta from the beginning of their stint or refrain from trying to catch the car in front or get only one chance at attacking. Also, tyres now CAN be made better if only there was the decision to do it.

Demanding a change in these tyres DOES NOT MEAN we want to go back to the refueling era, which was worse than this. It simply means we want drivers to be able to drive at their maximum, be it with a soft for 15 laps, a medium for 25, a hard for 35 or a super hard for the whole race. Of course the max. for these compounds would be different but the drivers would be allowed to push and fight on track. Is only a minor tweak needed for this? Maybe, but then FIA, Pirelli, whoever, do it. Give 3 or 4 different compounds per race, increase the tyre allotment, eliminate the park ferme rule and the mandatory use of 2 compounds. Drivers will do the rest.

Don't be fooled by the headlines: "Different winners", "Cars separated by less than 1 second", etc. Are these legitimate? Are these the result of great on-track battles? If so great! But so far I have not seen evidence to believe that. Kimi not being able to fight Vettel, Alonso not being able to fight Maldonado, Hamilton not being able to fight Alonso. et. al. Or, as many forumers have already said, is this closeness a result of some teams being handicapped? At the end of the day, I don't care if 5 drivers go to the end of the championship separated by 3 points if there are no real duels on track.

It's not as bad as some people think, but it certainly is not so good as some F1 stakeholders want to make us believe.

#1144 ViMaMo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:36

On the one hand, the lottery makes things very interesting and on the other hand, having followed F1 for quite sometime; I think its a false sense of competition that we are seeing. Why does F1 need the best guys and equipment to build a great car only to be Pirellied? Sure fans want close races, multiple winners, unpredictable race order, Pirellie has magically provided everything. Its a false heaven.

Why not provide spec chassis, engine, DRS, KERS and throw in those magical Pirellies, now its a lot more interesting right ? HRT and Marussia can also fight for the top honors equally as Red Bull/Mclaren/Ferrari/Lotus/Williams/Sauber . Seems only fair?

#1145 Sakae

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:38

Rosberg seems to be changing his views like socks. Schumacher is at least consistent with his, regardless if you agree with him, or not.

#1146 Neophiliac

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:40

I'd argue that the so called lottery aspect has more to do with teams coming to terms with a new situation - new aero, new tires. It would happen with any major shake up. I don't expect there to be 20 different race winners this season.


There was no major shakeup this year. The only change is the elimination of EBD and lower nose tips. That's peanuts. The extent of rule changes is by far the least we've had in 4 years or so. 2009 aero changes were far, far more dramatic. And tyres were new last year and the year before. So that theory fails.

#1147 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:42

I'd argue that the so called lottery aspect has more to do with teams coming to terms with a new situation - new aero, new tires. It would happen with any major shake up. I don't expect there to be 20 different race winners this season.


there is a certain amount of truth in that. But the aero is not new in any way. Less DF is of course normal with the loss of EBD, and the mapping that came with it, but 80% of the grid is 3rd-4th generation design. It is and is going to be totally unpredictable until teams don"t come up with a solution to handle the txres' lottery draw-like behaviour to environmental changes, and the most likely is that they will not be able to the whole season, if they don't kick Pirellis axx to change sthing, which again, they are not likely to, because I suspect all this was not really their intention, they are only riding the tide. It is obvious by now that the teams have been caught out by the tyres they have been presented with. Every car has a given setup window, and sometimes, some tracks, some conditions play to their favor, than sometimes it does not. It seems that the problem is too complex to come up with a universal solution. No, as you say, no 20 different race winners, but there still could be some surprises. No wonder Button said there no overnight fix to what he has encountered for not the first time now in 5 races. Of course all of this means that midfield teams, who now have a real shot at results above their usual kisck are cheering their pants off, but somehow I find it a little frustrating, and suspect top teams and their drivers are not fans of these rubbers atm. I also am hearing Ferrari's sigh of relief. :)


#1148 Dunder

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:58

But Williams was quick from Friday onwards, and were not affected by the change in conditions. Changing conditions is not the whole story. Some cars even have trouble getting into the zone, even if they have all the setup possibilities available. Then the same car goes to the next track and bam, they're in the zone the whole weekend.


Sure, I am not suggesting that it is only a change in track conditions that can put you in or take you out of the 'zone'. It is a whole combination of things and at the moment it looks like the puzzle of getting the car to work on both compounds and with substantially varying fuel loads and track temps. is all but unsolvable. Williams actually demonstrates this better than most if you look at the relative performance between Maldanado and Senna (who also looked quick on Friday).

That is not to suggest Maldanado was just lucky, maybe he found something in his driving that allowed him to keep heat in the right/rear tyre whilst looking after the front/left, maybe they did something with weight distributions, suspension or differentials that just worked. I don't know.

I do know (or am of the strong opinion) that a control tyre should be able to operate effectively over a much wider range of temperatures.

In a way, the furore over these tyres should be split into two (or several) different topics/categories. One is the fast degradation/marbling which we also in 2011 and the other is the narrowed operating window which is causing the teams so many problems.

Edited by Dunder, 14 May 2012 - 16:58.


#1149 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:05

There was no major shakeup this year. The only change is the elimination of EBD and lower nose tips. That's peanuts. The extent of rule changes is by far the least we've had in 4 years or so. 2009 aero changes were far, far more dramatic. And tyres were new last year and the year before. So that theory fails.



What? Yes 2009 had a shakeup and look what team dominated the first half and won.

2012 might not seem like a major shakeup, but Red Bull's car and race strategy was designed around engine mapping, EBD and front wing shenanigans. As was Mclaren's to a less successful degree. Red Bull has flip flopped their exhaust/ducting almost every race this season so far.

Maybe it's a smaller shakeup, but let's keep it in perspective here. The top four teams have won four out of five races.

#1150 Timstr11

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:19

Sure, I am not suggesting that it is only a change in track conditions that can put you in or take you out of the 'zone'. It is a whole combination of things and at the moment it looks like the puzzle of getting the car to work on both compounds and with substantially varying fuel loads and track temps. is all but unsolvable. Williams actually demonstrates this better than most if you look at the relative performance between Maldanado and Senna (who also looked quick on Friday).

That is not to suggest Maldanado was just lucky, maybe he found something in his driving that allowed him to keep heat in the right/rear tyre whilst looking after the front/left, maybe they did something with weight distributions, suspension or differentials that just worked. I don't know.

I do know (or am of the strong opinion) that a control tyre should be able to operate effectively over a much wider range of temperatures.

In a way, the furore over these tyres should be split into two (or several) different topics/categories. One is the fast degradation/marbling which we also in 2011 and the other is the narrowed operating window which is causing the teams so many problems.

Good point about the 2 aspects that generally get confused. I agree that the fast degradation is nothing new and personally I don't mind that characteristic.
The new thing of 2012 is the extreme peakiness of the tyres. A peakiness that can render you 1 to 2 seconds off the pace on a given weekend. Way too much tyre influence. Unless teams can learn to get their tyres into that narrow zone, but I don't expect they will.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 May 2012 - 17:19.