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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#1151 F1Champion

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:19

I know this has been said a million times already in different threads regarding this subject, but I will try to make it simple, again:

Tyre management in the 80s (or whenever) NOT EQUAL to delta driving in 2012. Yes drivers had to manage tyres in the past but only if they went outside the stint window. If the tyres were designed for 20 laps, they could drive at close to 100% for those 20 laps. If for some reason they changed strategy or whatever and wanted to go longer on those same tyres, of course they had to start managing and the tyres could not be pushed at 100% anymore. But they DID NOT have to drive to a delta from the beginning of their stint or refrain from trying to catch the car in front or get only one chance at attacking. Also, tyres now CAN be made better if only there was the decision to do it.

Demanding a change in these tyres DOES NOT MEAN we want to go back to the refueling era, which was worse than this. It simply means we want drivers to be able to drive at their maximum, be it with a soft for 15 laps, a medium for 25, a hard for 35 or a super hard for the whole race. Of course the max. for these compounds would be different but the drivers would be allowed to push and fight on track. Is only a minor tweak needed for this? Maybe, but then FIA, Pirelli, whoever, do it. Give 3 or 4 different compounds per race, increase the tyre allotment, eliminate the park ferme rule and the mandatory use of 2 compounds. Drivers will do the rest.

Don't be fooled by the headlines: "Different winners", "Cars separated by less than 1 second", etc. Are these legitimate? Are these the result of great on-track battles? If so great! But so far I have not seen evidence to believe that. Kimi not being able to fight Vettel, Alonso not being able to fight Maldonado, Hamilton not being able to fight Alonso. et. al. Or, as many forumers have already said, is this closeness a result of some teams being handicapped? At the end of the day, I don't care if 5 drivers go to the end of the championship separated by 3 points if there are no real duels on track.

It's not as bad as some people think, but it certainly is not so good as some F1 stakeholders want to make us believe.


QFT.

I shook my head at Hamilton's comment. Talent stunted.

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#1152 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:24

I know this has been said a million times already in different threads regarding this subject, but I will try to make it simple, again:
...

It's not as bad as some people think, but it certainly is not so good as some F1 stakeholders want to make us believe.


I'm not arguing that the proposed tire solution wouldn't be better. But the situation is somewhat analogous to engine management. Turn your engine up to get more performance for a short stint. Turn it too high and you risk damage and certainly shorten its life.

Edited by Pudu, 14 May 2012 - 17:24.


#1153 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:38

I'm not arguing that the proposed tire solution wouldn't be better. But the situation is somewhat analogous to engine management. Turn your engine up to get more performance for a short stint. Turn it too high and you risk damage and certainly shorten its life.


I beg to differ. With these junk rubbers, teams and drivers are forced into a kind of mindset, strategy, and the way they manage a race disrance, whereas engine management is a tool to use at your whim, and your own risk. There is a great difference in that. Prosts name keeps popping up as an example that tyre management is a glorious gift from God. But Prost could choose when and how he saved his his tyres, and he always did so to push when he had to, and wanted to. It was an added value to him. Now it is not the case for anybody. Tyres dictate and determine what when and how you can do it if at all.


#1154 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:22

Prost knew, that what he saved he could use later on in the stint. Now you can only drive to save the tires from falling, not 'store' performance.

Other mindset: would you buy Pirelli condoms when you know they fall of the cliff (ie leak) and an unexpected time? :)

#1155 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:32

But you can manage your tires to last longer. Hamilton was the only one to do a two stopper yesterday. He was more or less forced into that situation, but he made it work to a decent outcome.

And it doesn't prevent drivers from putting in good laps when they count. Maldonado did a blistering outlap that put him well ahead of Alonso (albeit he didn't likely have needed to thanks to Pic).




#1156 RealRacing

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:40

Prost knew, that what he saved he could use later on in the stint. Now you can only drive to save the tires from falling, not 'store' performance.

Other mindset: would you buy Pirelli condoms when you know they fall of the cliff (ie leak) and an unexpected time? :)


Exactly, in the past saving tyres was an option, now it's mandatory. And, most important of all and what some people don't seem to get when they use this Prost comparison, is that 2012 tyres don't allow drivers to push, attack, defend when needed. Not enough to provide good on track racing anyway... and that makes a huge difference.


#1157 R Soul

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:26

I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think they can't possibly go back to sensible rules. Even if they sort out the problems caused by turbulent air, the FIA will balk at the idea of more predictability and less "racing".


#1158 Neophiliac

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:47

What? Yes 2009 had a shakeup and look what team dominated the first half and won.

2012 might not seem like a major shakeup, but Red Bull's car and race strategy was designed around engine mapping, EBD and front wing shenanigans. As was Mclaren's to a less successful degree. Red Bull has flip flopped their exhaust/ducting almost every race this season so far.

Maybe it's a smaller shakeup, but let's keep it in perspective here. The top four teams have won four out of five races.


Err.. not sure what we're arguing. A shakeup is indeed is likely to shake up the field (heh), but in 2009, JB won a good number of races on the trot. There was nothing at all like this year with 5 winners from 5 different teams. And that's kinda what you'd expect in a changing aero rules environment: one or two teams get it right, and the rest play catch up in the first year, and get closer in the 2nd and 3rd.

#1159 PretentiousBread

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:52

It is a different sport from the bridgestone days.

But if not for few team mistakes, Hamilton ( one of the more aggressive drivers) would be leading the championship on these "pancake" tires.

Williams have improved immensely from last year.

As it stands you have Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi leading the wdc. how would it be any different with bridgestones.

Hamilton did 30 laps on the primes in traffic for some of it. They cant be that bad.


That's not the point at all. I imagine if heavyweight boxers had to wear giant, fluffy, padded pom poms instead of boxing gloves the best guys would still win, but it wouldn't exactly be the same gladiatorial contest would it?

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#1160 DaddyCool

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:54

Unpredictable F1 became strange in Spain-Alonso

#1161 Pudu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:07

Err.. not sure what we're arguing. A shakeup is indeed is likely to shake up the field (heh), but in 2009, JB won a good number of races on the trot. There was nothing at all like this year with 5 winners from 5 different teams. And that's kinda what you'd expect in a changing aero rules environment: one or two teams get it right, and the rest play catch up in the first year, and get closer in the 2nd and 3rd.



There was no major shakeup this year. The only change is the elimination of EBD and lower nose tips. That's peanuts. The extent of rule changes is by far the least we've had in 4 years or so. 2009 aero changes were far, far more dramatic. And tyres were new last year and the year before. So that theory fails.


2009 you have a single team that luckily gets it right out of the blocks. This year everyone is still coming to terms with the changes. Why does any team have to have it perfectly nailed from race one?

Not sure why that theory fails or what we are arguing about either.

#1162 zelpre

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:09

Unpredictable F1 became strange in Spain-Alonso


Why they just don't say it? Tires Tires Tires Tires

They Suck!

Edited by zelpre, 14 May 2012 - 20:10.


#1163 sharo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:05

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#1164 JV97

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:28

Most team owners/managers hate them but can't say it.

Drivers can't really say it but many are not being very subtle about it any more.

But they all keep saying it's what the fans want. Not sure where that mandate comes from but the latest Global Fan survey will probably back Pirelli.

I would like the lottery, the unpredictability if I just knew the drivers had the opportunity to push sometimes.

#1165 Menace

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:38

Most team owners/managers hate them but can't say it.

Drivers can't really say it but many are not being very subtle about it any more.


So much supposition and little to no evidence.

#1166 baddog

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 23:13

It is interesting that the drivers who are... how to put this.. second rank are going on about it being the best ever, and the really top guys hate it.

#1167 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 23:17

It is interesting that the drivers who are... how to put this.. second rank are going on about it being the best ever, and the really top guys hate it.


Not sure what you mean by "second rank" but Webber and Schumi have been outspoken about them and I consider them second rank within their respective teams.

#1168 fieraku

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 23:58

Unpredictable F1 became strange in Spain-Alonso


No One has a f****** clue what's going on and that includes drivers,engineers and team principals. And people here still debate it's not a lottery?
Sorry but if after 5 races teams don't know where they stand it's exactly a lottery,and please stop with the Prost tire whisperer crap already.Teams back then knew where they stood and what they had to do and so did the drivers,also the technology is not the same as today's. Now engineers analyze terabits of data on supercomputers and they still are clueless to what's happening.

Well Whitmarsh wanted a challenge to make him scratch his head...B.A's voice "You got it FOOL"

#1169 baddog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:01

Not sure what you mean by "second rank" but Webber and Schumi have been outspoken about them and I consider them second rank within their respective teams.

Well I can see you are just being facetious, but to clarify I consider Alguersuari to be a second rank driver (and not even in the car to boot), along with Romain Grosjean (for now), as opposed to Raikkonen, Alonso, Schumacher, Rosberg, Vettel who are all first rank.

#1170 Markn93

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:04

Well I can see you are just being facetious, but to clarify I consider Alguersuari to be a second rank driver (and not even in the car to boot), along with Romain Grosjean (for now), as opposed to Raikkonen, Alonso, Schumacher, Rosberg, Vettel who are all first rank.


If thats how you rank them, (and I wasn't being facetious), I have to disagree. To my knowledge the two most outspoken drivers are Webber and Schumi and they are 'first rank' drivers.

#1171 baddog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:12

Im confused.. I am saying the first rank drivers like schumi, webber, alonso hate the tyre lottery situtation.

#1172 Markn93

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:16

Im confused.. I am saying the first rank drivers like schumi, webber, alonso hate the tyre lottery situtation.


My bad, point I forgot to add was that there are some who don't seem (this is the key word) to mind, I'm thinking mainly of Lewis. Although maybe his second stint last race which could have further infused him with some belief that these tyres can actually be raced on.

I don't think there's a trend either way with drivers speaking out, perhaps the more experienced guys who are less fearful of revealing their thoughts is a trend though, however the more that do, the more those who are inclined to but won't for sponsor/team reasons will begin to do so and then we may see a trend.

Edited by Markn93, 15 May 2012 - 00:26.


#1173 baddog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:25

My bad, point I forgot to add was that there are some who don't seem (this is the key word) to mind, I'm thinking mainly of Lewis. Although maybe his second stint last race which could have further infused him with some belief that these tyres can actually be raced on.

I don't see anything from Lewis indicating he likes the tyre situation at all (He seems to be uncharacteristically quiet in recent times), but I would be happy to agree if there is something you can point me to? He may be one of the worst affected drivers after all, in races being all over the place.

#1174 Markn93

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:35

I don't see anything from Lewis indicating he likes the tyre situation at all (He seems to be uncharacteristically quiet in recent times), but I would be happy to agree if there is something you can point me to? He may be one of the worst affected drivers after all, in races being all over the place.


Maybe I'm reading too much into it but this was a perfect opportunity to have a go, like Fernando did, but he didn't:

Q: (Fulvio Solms - Corriere Dello Sport) To all three drivers; they have chosen new rules and tyres to have an unpredictable Formula One. Do you think this championship is just unpredictable, or technically less logical as well?
FA: I don’t think they choose the tyres for the championship to be unpredictable. We have the tyres that we have.
LH: I’m not sure that they were expecting it to be as it is, but I definitely think that it is a bit unpredictable at the moment, massively close. There have been several different winners in the races and you can make such a big difference, if you don’t finish one race but then you win the next race, it can still keep you in contention so it feels for me - out of all the championships that I’ve been in - it feels to me to be one of the most exciting ones. Regardless if I haven’t won yet, it just feels like one of the best, I imagine, for people to watch.

Both McLaren drivers though might well be following the team line, and the example set by Whitmarsh, of not saying anything negative about the tyres. If this is the case, and if we ever truly find out, I retract my comment of Lewis liking/being ok with the tyres and in fact agree with your initial statement. Well done you've changed my mind, doesn't happen often here :up:

#1175 fieraku

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 00:38

Whitmarsh himself was the one asking for these tires so I doubt his drivers will say anything,gag order in place I reckon.

#1176 AlexS

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:02

In any championship where there are 10 cars separated by less than a second is by definition a lottery.

Instead of looking at top teams in past lets check the lesser teams. What was for example the consistency of 9,10th place in past? Very low.

#1177 ali_M

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:59

So much supposition and little to no evidence.


:rotfl: How much do you need? I suspect that there's no evidence that would be enough evidence for you unless it comes from the realm of conventional wisdom and press releases just for you... the public, or which is in alignment with your point of view.;)

You should be happy for figures like Schumacher in the paddock to blow the whistle. However, the hate is so strong and the need for unpredictable races so strong.

Edited by ali_M, 15 May 2012 - 02:25.


#1178 ViMaMo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:28

So much supposition and little to no evidence.


:drunk:

I guess conventional wisdom and trends in F1 have no bearing ? This isnt real.

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#1179 travbrad

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:28

In any championship where there are 10 cars separated by less than a second is by definition a lottery.


Or just a very close championship where tiny differences in the track/tyres/setup/upgrades make all the difference. If that is your definition of a lottery then virtually every open-wheel series is a "lottery" (GP2/F3/WSBR/Karting/etc)

"Lottery" implies that it is purely based on luck, which really isn't the case. Maybe there's MORE luck/chance involved than in recent years, but there's still a lot of skill and hard work involved. If it's a lottery then why do we have 5 world champions in the top 6 of the WDC standings? That seems like quite a coincidence when lotteries are supposed to be random.

Likewise the "new" teams still have scored 0 points. You'd think in a lottery they'd have scored some points by now.

Edited by travbrad, 15 May 2012 - 03:32.


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#1180 iotar

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:39

Or just a very close championship where tiny differences in the track/tyres/setup/upgrades make all the difference. If that is your definition of a lottery then virtually every open-wheel series is a "lottery" (GP2/F3/WSBR/Karting/etc)

"Lottery" implies that it is purely based on luck, which really isn't the case. Maybe there's MORE luck/chance involved than in recent years, but there's still a lot of skill and hard work involved. If it's a lottery then why do we have 5 world champions in the top 6 of the WDC standings? That seems like quite a coincidence when lotteries are supposed to be random.

Likewise the "new" teams still have scored 0 points. You'd think in a lottery they'd have scored some points by now.

I agree, this 'lottery' is 90% made up and 10% exaggerated. Let's look at the latest example: Vettel/Red Bull. After disappointing race they're hinting at some random results and it only proves that F1 teams and drivers are the kings of BS-ing.

RB in Spain is a funny example because they had pace both in qualifying and in the race to do well , they didn't deliver so once again they need to blame publicly something else.

First of all, when they were rather surprisingly in front in Bahrain no one said a word about tyres. They all win on merit, all of them, Mercedes in China: 'we are on top of tyres' problems, McLaren in Australia and now RB. It's only when they mess up something, unpredictable character of modern F1 appears. In interviews mainly.

Firstly, they had the pace even in Q2, Webber was up there, it was because he was too fast they messed up and didn't send him out. He said himself that top qualifying position was possible and with Hamilton's penalty maybe even a podium. So they were a bit slower in Q3? Big deal, if the pace is there, you save some tyres and you have a good start you can have a good race from seventh. Lotus almost won in Bahrain. See, this is where it gets tricky, when you don't start from pole and have quick competition every mistake is 100 times more costly. Can they blame the tyres on changing the noses, losing lot of pace in Webber's case and pitstop time? Nope. Can they blame the tyres on Vettel's slow pace in Q when his team-mate was fast enough. Nope. Can they blame the tyres on penalty and 13s lost. Nope.

But we don't we hear about real reasons of nose problems. No, it's "the random elements of F1" to blame. Cry me a river. You know what is random? When RB, Ferrari and co. get fat check from BE and places on F1 managing board.

McLaren is fast everywhere, Lotus is always up there, slower in Q, Mercedes were better at the tracks where f-duct was beneficial, had some tyres problems to solve and maybe fell behind in development, RB had the race pace in almost every GP, Williams was fast in the first race of the season and now after big updates at the beginning of European season they improved, same with Sauber. Quite normal. Ferrari are not complaining because one: they have real problems, two: they benefit from the situation. There are some fluctuations of course, but it's all matter of getting enough data and finding engineering solutions.

The answer is the same: teams, if you don't like the tyres get together and change them. Hembery was 100% right (and so was I) - fat chance of that happening soon, so shut up about it.

#1181 Neophiliac

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:08

The answer is the same: teams, if you don't like the tyres get together and change them. Hembery was 100% right (and so was I) - fat chance of that happening soon, so shut up about it.


I think that's exactly the wrong prescription if you do want something changed. Seems to me that making continuous noise about this tyre situation - both by the fans here on the message board (which even Hembery reads) and by the drivers in the interviews, is the only way things are gonna change. As the volume of complaints grows, it often slowly morphs into a consensus view. Maybe there'll be no change this season, but the point is at the very least to ensure that we don't see the same crap next year.


#1182 4MEN

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:18

Let's do a test, if you are bored enough: watch Qualifying and Race TV transmission and count the times the commentators say: "tyres"

50-100 times/hour > tyres are the attention whore of F1.

#1183 swiniodzik

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:29

Neophiliac :up:

I was making this point in the other thread. People should speak, reasonably of course, about their complaints because looking at the negatives powers the progress. It's neither 'a lottery purely based on luck' these days, but nor it's 'some fluctuations and it being all about getting enough data and finding engineering solutions'. The question whether luck is playing too much of a part in determining the results at the moment looks genuine as basically every team is speaking and wondering about this, not only those who struggle.

http://www.guardian....n?newsfeed=true

Button: "I think we're struggling in terms of pace and I'm definitely struggling in terms of finding a balance with the car. We haven't had the pace in the last two races. In reality we don't understand the tyres. We still have a good car and I think the next race we could be quick again.

"But we won't understand why we are quick. We might pretend to but we won't understand. And I'm sure Williams don't understand why they just won the race here."


http://motorsport.ne...onso,41856.html

Raikkonen: "At one race one team is there (at the front) and then suddenly they are tenth in the next race, so it’s bit of an odd situation."


http://motorsport.ne...rder,41906.html

The situation has split the F1 audience, with the purists shaking their heads, and others marvelling at the unprecedented spectacle. Alonso, who is the joint championship leader, is in the purists’ camp.

"Of course it is attractive for the spectators that we are going to Monaco not knowing if we will fight for victory or be left out of the points," he is quoted by El Pais.

"But in a way, after eleven years in formula one and now I’m at Ferrari, I would like to have more stability," the Spaniard admitted.

(...)

"What’s happening," said Maldonado’s race engineer Xevi Pujolar, "is that these tyres are allowing teams who do not have the biggest budgets to be eligible for really good results.

"The reason is that the most important thing now is to have a good setup and also some luck with the temperature."



#1184 finignig

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:46

"What’s happening," said Maldonado’s race engineer Xevi Pujolar, "is that these tyres are allowing teams who do not have the biggest budgets to be eligible for really good results.

"The reason is that the most important thing now is to have a good setup and also some luck with the temperature.”


To all pro-pirelli folks. Doesnt this comment suffice? Dont you guys rather want the car/driver combo be more important than setup/luck with temperature? Pirelli simply went too far IMO and sooner or later the big teams will speak out to protect their interest (media exposure/points/cash) from the smaller teams who are getting a much bigger share than usual.

Side rant: I dont understand all the aggression on this tire debate in every thread, and pointing it between two extremes, If anything this is a perfect case for F1 fanatics to dig deep within data/quotes to back their opinions rather than scream out “YOU WANT PROCESSION RACES!” “THIS IS A LOTTERY!”.

Edited by finignig, 15 May 2012 - 09:47.


#1185 Timstr11

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:58

In a way, the furore over these tyres should be split into two (or several) different topics/categories. One is the fast degradation/marbling which we also in 2011 and the other is the narrowed operating window which is causing the teams so many problems.

Mark Hughes gives a bit more insight into the cause of the temperature sensitivity:

Last year's tyre had a less flat profile that put most of the wear on a relatively narrow part of the tyre's width and this wear usually defined the tyre's durability. This year's tyre has a much flatter profile that spreads the load much more evenly across the full width of the contact patch and the limit is no longer wear, but heat durability. In essence the tyre becomes saturated with the energy being fed through it and overheats into uselessness, the chemical compound of the surface breaking down so that the tyre loses grip at forever lower limits even though there may still be plenty of tread left.

It would appear that this has made the tyre much more sensitive to track temperature and to the balance of the car. If there is the hint of a pattern to the apparently random outcomes this year, it is that when the weather was cooler than expected - ie China and Barcelona - the Ferrari, Williams and Sauber have been competitive (recall Bruno Senna's sparkling race in China). On hot days, the Lotus has tended to look very good. In the 40-degC+ heat of Friday in Barcelona the Lotuses looked by far the fastest cars over a race stint, even though they apparently struggled to get the last couple of tenths of single lap pace. With race day 10-deg C cooler the Lotuses looked merely competitive. Perhaps the crucial clues lie in there somewhere.



#1186 Massa_f1

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:09

I think it has become very obvious that something is very wrong with these tyres. They certainly are not the same tyes going to each team in my opinion. It is a question of weather Pirelli know what bad and good tyres are going where. Or weather they really have no clue.

#1187 ali_M

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:16

Neophiliac :up:

I was making this point in the other thread. People should speak, reasonably of course, about their complaints because looking at the negatives powers the progress. It's neither 'a lottery purely based on luck' these days, but nor it's 'some fluctuations and it being all about getting enough data and finding engineering solutions'. The question whether luck is playing too much of a part in determining the results at the moment looks genuine as basically every team is speaking and wondering about this, not only those who struggle.


Nice collection of quotes by winners and losers this season.

Those not convinced at this point that the situation is simply untenable cannot be convinced otherwise. My continuing to post here against this current season's developments isn't primarily to convince those not yet convinced, but to reach those silent readers from teams and F1 management who are curious about what fans who take the time to discuss their feelings want or think.

#1188 ali_M

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:20

I think it has become very obvious that something is very wrong with these tyres. They certainly are not the same tyes going to each team in my opinion. It is a question of weather Pirelli know what bad and good tyres are going where. Or weather they really have no clue.


I can't help but wonder if the tyres are varied between teams too. I really doubt it but considering crashgate and other such recent scandals, I can't help but wonder. Of course, the teams couldn't be in on such a plan. They'd never stand by it, but goodness me, it's just terrible, this situation. It's an insult really from my own perspective. The drivers can't cover it up anymore since they felt they would have been on top of the tyres by now. Now that this folly continues after 5 races with no sign of getting better, they have to come out and say why they aren't doing as they expect to be.

#1189 rhukkas

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:41

I think it has become very obvious that something is very wrong with these tyres. They certainly are not the same tyes going to each team in my opinion. It is a question of whether Pirelli know what bad and good tyres are going where. Or whether they really have no clue.


Yes, I know I have problems :)


#1190 PretentiousBread

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:47

Mark Hughes gives a bit more insight into the cause of the temperature sensitivity:


:up:

Mark Hughes is one of the few prominent F1 journos who actually offers any insight into how these tyres behave, the rest of them seem as clueless as most of this forum is about them.

For those who haven't read it, here's the full article, it's a good read:

http://www1.skysport...reigns-in-Spain

#1191 Neophiliac

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:04

In the interest of keeping an open mind: I am going to have to eat crow if at any point this season we will see one team suddenly get fully on top of tyre performance and start dominating race in and race out. Then we'll just have to say: them Pirelli guys sure gave the teams a headache, but at the end of the day, the one with the best engineers won. The meritocracy fan that I am, that's a result that would in the end of the season leave me satisfied enough. I would still say "thanks but no thanks" to a repeat of the same kind of challenge next year, but I recognise that reasonable people can disagree about this.

For the time being, however, the wild swings in form (one minute ahead of red bull this weeked and one minute behind the last) are all indicative of a total face. :down:



#1192 Pudu

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:46

:up:

Mark Hughes is one of the few prominent F1 journos who actually offers any insight into how these tyres behave, the rest of them seem as clueless as most of this forum is about them.

For those who haven't read it, here's the full article, it's a good read:

http://www1.skysport...reigns-in-Spain



That was a good article. :up:

#1193 rhukkas

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:11

Problem for F1 now is they've shot their load and having nothing left in the ball-sack. Once F1 viewing figures start to decline as fans start switching off because they realise the whole thing is a complete and utter mess, F1 is stuck. They can't make the tyres more durable because F1 will become less eventful and that will only accelerate the decline.

F1 did get to a point where it was becoming very dull, but what they should have focussed on was improving viewer immersion. The yanks do a magnificent job of making the most dull sports at least interesting. Yes, regulations changes were needed, but not as severe as they went with DRS and Pirelli.

They've dug a hole of inevitable decline.

Edited by rhukkas, 15 May 2012 - 13:12.


#1194 ali_M

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:29

Problem for F1 now is they've shot their load and having nothing left in the ball-sack. Once F1 viewing figures start to decline as fans start switching off because they realise the whole thing is a complete and utter mess, F1 is stuck. They can't make the tyres more durable because F1 will become less eventful and that will only accelerate the decline.

F1 did get to a point where it was becoming very dull, but what they should have focussed on was improving viewer immersion. The yanks do a magnificent job of making the most dull sports at least interesting. Yes, regulations changes were needed, but not as severe as they went with DRS and Pirelli.

They've dug a hole of inevitable decline.


I wouldn't underestimate the power of momentum and conventional wisdom making u-turns while being easily accepted. F1's enjoyed viewership is huge and not so easily toppled as evidenced by my continuing to watch the races. I just keep coming back hoping that things will be different next race. Additionally, media manipulation through the commercial interests sure know how to do their stuff to keep the fans going.

Just remember that there are MANY here who feel that F1 has woken up and that the fans are loving it. Where's the hole, many ask but the one that you, the complainer, are in? Points of view are relative really. Anyway, whatever happens, happens and life goes on. There's a LOT of motor racing out there. I'm really, really enjoying MotoGP and WSBK for racing. Unfortunately, I'm enjoying F1 for the politics and watching how they allow themselves to be so controlled by fans and commercial interests out of greed. I've never seen a sport so hijacked before. It goes to show how greed can make a sport involving so much talent get to what it currently is.

Edited by ali_M, 15 May 2012 - 13:30.


#1195 ViMaMo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:47

The sustained aggression and relentlessness, maintaining flat-out on-the-limit driving for lap after lap, a skill that so few can master, is currently an obsolete requirement.

Measured by the new, Pirelli-dominated, set of requirements Maldonado is a top driver. The worrying thing is that he may be equal first with the 23 others.


- Mark Hughes


I don't think our upgrades are worth two minutes over a race! They have worked a little better than expected but even so I don't really know where we are. I think some of the other teams have under-performed, or had problems getting their tyres working because some of the results here feel very strange.


- Fernando Alonso

Edited by ViMaMo, 15 May 2012 - 15:48.


#1196 Markn93

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:49

That Mark Hughes quote is superb.

#1197 Kucki

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 20:48

I think it has become very obvious that something is very wrong with these tyres. They certainly are not the same tyes going to each team in my opinion. It is a question of weather Pirelli know what bad and good tyres are going where. Or weather they really have no clue.


Of course they do and thats what they do to "improve the show".

It will be a close season until the end, and the usual talking heads are going to sell it as one of the best F1 seasons ever, it will be close but artificially created behind the scenes by the tires. Teams wont know it and couldnt prove it, F1 fans will enjoy the close season, everyone will be "happy". Its too easy not to do it.

Edited by Kucki, 15 May 2012 - 21:00.


#1198 Pudu

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 21:12

Of course they do and thats what they do to "improve the show".

It will be a close season until the end, and the usual talking heads are going to sell it as one of the best F1 seasons ever, it will be close but artificially created behind the scenes by the tires. Teams wont know it and couldnt prove it, F1 fans will enjoy the close season, everyone will be "happy". Its too easy not to do it.



Do you really believe that and continue to follow F1?

#1199 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 21:31

Of course they do and thats what they do to "improve the show".

It will be a close season until the end, and the usual talking heads are going to sell it as one of the best F1 seasons ever, it will be close but artificially created behind the scenes by the tires. Teams wont know it and couldnt prove it, F1 fans will enjoy the close season, everyone will be "happy". Its too easy not to do it.


Personally, I think no, they do not know. As I said before, they are just riding the tide they have created. For me it just shows there massive inexperience and naivety about how F1 works as a whole.


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#1200 sharo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:35

With Bernie pulling the ropes I won't be surprised at anything. Flavio is just a petty cheat in comparison.