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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#1201 TheBunk

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:43

- Mark Hughes




- Fernando Alonso


Mark Hughes is an idiot, and plain insulting towards Maldonado. I find it really derogatory towards him. Its also plain bullshit as Maldonado and Alonsos teammate where nowhere to be seen. Or does he want to suggest Alonso is an average driver on normal tyres too?

The minute someone waving a union jack wins a race, the pirellis are the best thing since sliced bread again.

Another point that doesnt make sense: the Lotus cars that supposedly only work in hot temps. They have been great eversince they came out of the box. In various temps theyve set a tremendous pace. Another point is that Grosjean has proved to be a super quick and fantastic if somewhat ragged driver, that keeps up well with, what driver manager Paul Wilson says is the fastest driver over one lap Kimi Raikkonen. They both do an outstanding job.

Bah, Mark Hughes. Go and have a good look in the mirror.

Edited by TheBunk, 15 May 2012 - 22:48.


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#1202 baddog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:59

Mark Hughes is an idiot, and plain insulting towards Maldonado. I find it really derogatory towards him. Its also plain bullshit as Maldonado and Alonsos teammate where nowhere to be seen. Or does he want to suggest Alonso is an average driver on normal tyres too?

Yes but his point is that Maldonado could very possibly be struggling to get out of Q1 next weekend and be beaten by his team-mate. What then? If one driver consistently every weekend beats his teammate by a margin (Alonso-Massa is the only really obvious example at the moment) then you can see it but on any given weekend its just like looking at a Jackson Pollock painting.. very pretty but makes no sense.

#1203 TheBunk

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 23:10

Yes but his point is that Maldonado could very possibly be struggling to get out of Q1 next weekend and be beaten by his team-mate. What then? If one driver consistently every weekend beats his teammate by a margin (Alonso-Massa is the only really obvious example at the moment) then you can see it but on any given weekend its just like looking at a Jackson Pollock painting.. very pretty but makes no sense.


I disagree. Button gets soundly beaten by his teammate in qualifying. Vettel gets back at Webber. And apart from Alonso - massa, most teammates seem to be rather close.

This was a dig at Maldonado, and a very degrading one at that, plus some conclusions that make no sense at all, and give me strongly the idea that when Button wins the next 5 races in a row, these tyres are hailed as a gift from Him.

Most polls are also disagreeing with Hughes. Most fans love this season, and have seen a Williams and a Mercedes win in a fantastic style. Last weekend was a great battle between two different cars, isnt that what Hughes C.S. was crying for last year? Wasnt the race before that a great battle between 2 different cars too? The Malaysian GP? Now he has this and its still not good.

"Measured by the new, Pirelli-dominated, set of requirements Maldonado is a top driver."

Pathetic. I wonder if he has the balls to write the same in the event that Mclaren did not sort of screwed their pole position car from trundling off into the distance. Most probably not.

Give Maldonado some praise. He beat the best overal driver currently in F1 Alonso, didnt put a foot wrong, and im saying that as a huge fan of Alonso. What Hughes is writing is uncalled for.

Edited by TheBunk, 15 May 2012 - 23:22.


#1204 Muz Bee

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:52

I'm struggling to see any kind of pattern emerge out of this tyre management season. OK we are only 5 races in so maybe some team is going to get a handle on it and start dominating. Until then I am going to start suspecting that either the tyres have such a narrow operating window that the teams can't possibly cope with it in a real world situation, or that the tyres actually lack consistency. I think the former is the most likely but we have seen uneven performances from one session to another and one race stint to another.

The main criticism I have for the situation though is that the need to massage a set of tyres through a race stint has become far more extreme and the need for speed has been secondary to the need to save the tyres. I hate to think what sort of lottery is likely to occur at Monaco with top contenders being mired in the midfield for 15 laps after the first pitstop by, for example, Perez in the Sauber on a single stop strategy.

#1205 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:59

:up:

I'm struggling to see any kind of pattern emerge out of this tyre management season. OK we are only 5 races in so maybe some team is going to get a handle on it and start dominating. Until then I am going to start suspecting that either the tyres have such a narrow operating window that the teams can't possibly cope with it in a real world situation, or that the tyres actually lack consistency. I think the former is the most likely but we have seen uneven performances from one session to another and one race stint to another.

The main criticism I have for the situation though is that the need to massage a set of tyres through a race stint has become far more extreme and the need for speed has been secondary to the need to save the tyres. I hate to think what sort of lottery is likely to occur at Monaco with top contenders being mired in the midfield for 15 laps after the first pitstop by, for example, Perez in the Sauber on a single stop strategy.

:up:

#1206 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:49

The tyres are a pile of junk and an anathema to racing.


How are they are anathema to racing when we have never seen so much racing in F1 since the 80s? There is a little inconsistency but that is mainly the drivers and teams fault for making mistakes. In the 80s drivers had to conserve, fuel, tyres and the cars, yet nobody complained back then about the racing and to this day they say it was a great era. This one is even better. It is complete nonsense that drivers just cruise around, if that was true the gaps between team mates would be nonexistent but they are often huge like they were in the 80s.

In truth we no longer need the pirelli tyres to be this weak because we have DRS to open up the racing , which was the actual reason pirelli were asked to make tyres like this to spice up the racing at a time when we did not have DRS, but unfortunately both things happened at the same time so its given the impressive both are required.

#1207 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:53

Tyre management in the 80s (or whenever) NOT EQUAL to delta driving in 2012.


There is no driving to a delta in 2012. If that were true we would not be seeing big gaps on race day between team mates, and Rosberg would not have been 0.5 faster than Schumacher at China. Under driving a car is what tyre management is about anyway, but the key is going fast while doing it. The ones complaining just lack the skill or get frustrated by it.

Don't be fooled by the headlines: "Different winners", "Cars separated by less than 1 second", etc. Are these legitimate? Are these the result of great on-track battles? If so great! But so far I have not seen evidence to believe that. Kimi not being able to fight Vettel, Alonso not being able to fight Maldonado, Hamilton not being able to fight Alonso


What about all the other cars they fought? Kimi came from 11th - 2nd at Bahrain which means he fought a lot of cars on the way. The reason he couldnt fight Vettel was because he was too slow, same as Alonso.

Edited by incubus, 16 May 2012 - 06:56.


#1208 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:07

- Mark Hughes

Measured by the new, Pirelli-dominated, set of requirements Maldonado is a top driver. The worrying thing is that he may be equal first with the 23 others.



The huge gap between Massa and Alonso and other team mates totally contradicts this opinion. Infact, its totally opposite. The current tyres demand more skill from drivers because they have to adapt to the inconsistent tyres, where as in the past despite being able to constantly push, it was easier because the tyre performance was consistent. That is why for example the gap between Fernando and Massa is so big this year.

#1209 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:09

Yes but his point is that Maldonado could very possibly be struggling to get out of Q1 next weekend and be beaten by his team-mate. What then?



It means he is not good enough to adapt. That is where the inconsistency is coming from. Hamilton and Alonso have been pretty consistent. The cream always rises to the top.

#1210 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:47

From Webber's column

not much different to what MSC was saying...

People might say it's great to see really clever people struggling to work things out, but the other side of it is we like to push the boundaries and limits. We are the pinnacle and we like to get things as close to perfect as possible.

#1211 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:51

From Webber's column

not much different to what MSC was saying...

People might say it's great to see really clever people struggling to work things out, but the other side of it is we like to push the boundaries and limits. We are the pinnacle and we like to get things as close to perfect as possible.


Big words from a team member that got famous for qualifying on pole, and then never going flat out in a race but maintaining a 6-7 sec gap to number 2 car the whole race.

#1212 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:58

so you think they can push the boundaries with those cars?

I've grown up in a car racing family, with a father who is still racing at 73. I once married a guy who races cars. Every racer wants the equipment to allow him to drive as quickly as he possibly can. That's the definition of a racer. when a tyre means they can't push 100%, they are not happy.

Edited by Raelene, 16 May 2012 - 10:01.


#1213 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:04

so you think they can push the boundaries with those cars?

I've grown up in a car racing family, with a father who is still racing at 73. I once married a guy who races cars. Every racer wants the equipment to allow him to drive as quickly as he possibly can. That's the definition of a racer. when a tyre means they can't push 100%, they are not happy.


Can you explain how Vettel finished 40 seconds ahead of Webber in Bahrain if you cannot push in these cars and performance is limited by thr tyre and not driver? Truth is you can push, but its just a lot harder to do it effectively then before.

Edited by incubus, 16 May 2012 - 10:10.


#1214 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:10

how many drivers will it take for you to understand that they can't push the tyres as hard as they would like... they can't race 100%.

tyre management will also be a part of racing - fair enough - but this isn't tyre management, it's an absolute lottery.

Look at KR the other race - how many places did he loose in the space of a few laps.

Rubbish tyres


Edited by Raelene, 16 May 2012 - 10:13.


#1215 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:14

so you think they can push the boundaries with those cars?

I've grown up in a car racing family, with a father who is still racing at 73. I once married a guy who races cars. Every racer wants the equipment to allow him to drive as quickly as he possibly can. That's the definition of a racer. when a tyre means they can't push 100%, they are not happy.


They are 7 seconds a lap quicker than 12 years ago, with much less power. Id say these tyres are doing fine. When did these guys ever push 100%? The only time I remember is Schumacher at Hungary 97. The rest they build a gap, and then maintain that gap, turn down everything. Its a bit harder now but nothing too dramatic imo.

#1216 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:15

how many drivers will it take for you to understand that they can't push the tyres as hard as they would like... they can't race 100%.

tyre management will also be a part of racing - fair enough - but this isn't tyre management, it's an absolute lottery.

Look at KR the other race - how many places did he loose in the space of a few laps.

Rubbish tyres


But didnt they specifically ask for tyres that fall off a cliff after a while before the season started? Kimi and Lotus knew the risk. And it duly happened. After 30 laps orso.

And this from another thread: ""[BTW how easily all Pirelli moaners forget how the trait of 2007-2008 McLaren was a better performance on a wet and drying track. Thanks to, yes, you guessed it, getting the tyres into optimal operating range. It was all random of course. While others, the horror, couldn't push 100% Mclaren drivers could] ""

shows taking care of tyres, getting them in the right window, was all part of F1. Ferrari has had problems getting them to work to use 100% in qualifying since 2006 I think.

Edited by TheBunk, 16 May 2012 - 10:21.


#1217 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:16

how many drivers will it take for you to understand that they can't push the tyres as hard as they would like... they can't race 100%.

tyre management will also be a part of racing - fair enough - but this isn't tyre management, it's an absolute lottery.

Look at KR the other race - how many places did he loose in the space of a few laps.

Rubbish tyres



This is exactly what tyre management is, the problem is the drivers are not used to it, and don't enjoy it, that does not mean they cannot push the boundries, the boundry is just different.

Its not a lottery just look at the qualifying and drivers championship table.

Kimi worse out his tyres, just like Hamilton did in china 2007.

#1218 Timstr11

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:17

From Webber's column

not much different to what MSC was saying...

People might say it's great to see really clever people struggling to work things out, but the other side of it is we like to push the boundaries and limits. We are the pinnacle and we like to get things as close to perfect as possible.

Disagree. Not at all what MS has said.

Webber is referring to the urge to understand the tyre characteristics by engineers versus the struggle that some seem to enjoy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18080737

Edited by Timstr11, 16 May 2012 - 10:18.


#1219 Markn93

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:18

They are 7 seconds a lap quicker than 12 years ago, with much less power. Id say these tyres are doing fine. When did these guys ever push 100%? The only time I remember is Schumacher at Hungary 97. The rest they build a gap, and then maintain that gap, turn down everything. Its a bit harder now but nothing too dramatic imo.


What sport are you watching?

Spanish GP 2000 - Fastest Lap - M Hakkinnen 1.24.470 - Pole Position- M Schumacher- 1:20.974

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#1220 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:23

What sport are you watching?

Spanish GP 2000 - Fastest Lap - M Hakkinnen 1.24.470 - Pole Position- M Schumacher- 1:20.974


That was a different lay out.

#1221 Markn93

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:25

That was a different lay out.


Then where did 7 seconds come from? Granted, it's faster but not by that much.

#1222 expert

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:43

F1 this year definitely feels more like watching one of the open-wheel spec series, GP2, Indycar etc. The cars design is less important and it is setup on the day to suit the conditions that is making the difference. This combined with cars that a fairly close on times anyway is what leads the 10 place differences in results.

I'll withhold judgement for now but I am currently enjoying it. We are so used to seeing drivers dominate in F1 because of their car advantage that we have been tuned to believe that there really is a such a big difference in talent between the top and bottom. It's simply not true, and I think it's good to see drivers like Rosberg and Maldonado and Perez getting chances to challenge for victory because they are superb drivers in their own right.

Much like you will see in an IndyCar or GP2 though over the course of the season the cream will rise. Look at the current championship table. Still the usual suspects leading the way. 7 world championships won amongst the top 6 drivers. No lottery there at all.

Personally I love the idea that a team and driver can come to a race weekend with a chance of nailing the sweet spot on the setup and getting a good result, and equally making a hash of it and being nowhere. Better than arriving and everyone knowing pretty much from the outset exactly where you will finish because of your car design. If it gets any crazier I might change my position, but I think that's unlikely.



#1223 mgs315

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:04

Then where did 7 seconds come from? Granted, it's faster but not by that much.


That chicane before the final corner wasn't there. It's made that part of the circuit a huge chunk slower. The final corner at Catalyuna was always a bit scary for them before that.

#1224 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:14

Then where did 7 seconds come from? Granted, it's faster but not by that much.


A more direct comparisment would be Melbourne. In 2000 the pole time was 1.30.5. This year it was 1.24.9. last year it was 1.23 something.

The fastest race lap then was 1.31.4 while this year it was 1.29.1. Then off course, you had refueling so you could run 2 or 3 times on much lower tanks with newer tyres.

In general the racing has not gotten worse or better, the total race time then in 2000 was 1 hour 34 minutes, and this year it was one hour and 34 minutes.

So at least in time it doesnt make any difference, these Pirellis or then the Bridgestones. The overal race was run in exactly the same 100% anger as then. The difference was the refuelling and the rare overtaking. If we have to take Webbers words literarly, he wants to race at the same speed as in qualifying. Well then you have to reintroduce refuelling. But overal it doesnt make a lot of difference, only that some teams have difficulty understanding these tyres. And that, he roundly admits.

Edited by TheBunk, 16 May 2012 - 11:15.


#1225 Pits

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:20

The huge gap between Massa and Alonso and other team mates totally contradicts this opinion. Infact, its totally opposite. The current tyres demand more skill from drivers because they have to adapt to the inconsistent tyres, where as in the past despite being able to constantly push, it was easier because the tyre performance was consistent. That is why for example the gap between Fernando and Massa is so big this year.



Wrong, just a little different driving style can give problems with these tires. You see the same with Button, he has a different style than Hamilton and because of that payed the price in Barcelona. This underlines the small things that the tire needs to totally drop performance an be a piece of junk. So the driving style, the weather and the tarmac wil decide if the tire will work or not. How random would you like it??

#1226 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:21

Wrong, just a little different driving style can give problems with these tires. You see the same with Button, he has a different style than Hamilton and because of that payed the price in Barcelona. This underlines the small things that the tire needs to totally drop performance an be a piece of junk. So the driving style, the weather and the tarmac wil decide if the tire will work or not. How random would you like it??


Button never said its because of his style it didnt work in Barcelona. Besides, in Melbourne his style pretty much had everyone in check.

#1227 Pits

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:26

Button never said its because of his style it didnt work in Barcelona. Besides, in Melbourne his style pretty much had everyone in check.


Button and his engineers were clueless to the bone, they tried everything to turn the tire on set-up wise.
It didn't respond logicaly to any downforce changes at all.

We know he is a much smoother driver than for example Hamilton, so this must be the reason for the performance gap.
All the other variables were the same between them.

#1228 incubus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:28

Button and his engineers were clueless to the bone, they tried everything to turn the tire on set-up wise.
It didn't respond logicaly to any downforce changes at all.

We know he is a much smoother driver than for example Hamilton, so this must be the reason for the performance gap.
All the other variables were the same between them.


Button could not adapt, this is why these tyres require more skill. You don't see Massa randomly outpacing Alonso do you? If the results really were randomy and inconsistent then no drivers would consistently stand out yet the best do.

#1229 ali_M

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:40

Button could not adapt, this is why these tyres require more skill. You don't see Massa randomly outpacing Alonso do you? If the results really were randomy and inconsistent then no drivers would consistently stand out yet the best do.


It's been interesting reading the various views.

It's time for me to just continue watching the racing and see how things pan out. Not a thing I can do about it....

#1230 Pits

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:46

Button could not adapt, this is why these tyres require more skill. You don't see Massa randomly outpacing Alonso do you? If the results really were randomy and inconsistent then no drivers would consistently stand out yet the best do.


Maybe random is the wrong word to use in relation to the tire. Butt in the races we see now, there are about 14 drivers who can win if the circumstances favor them. So that has got nothing to do with skill more with luck. If we get a sudden drop in temperature, because a cloud roles in, we have a total different ball game and somebody else will win.
I don't understand how anybody can enjoy the current formula, seeing a mediocre driver in a mediocre car beat the whole field filled with better cars and better drivers.

It is no fun for the drivers, it is no fun for the teams, it is no fun for the fan's who enjoy f1 racing the way it was. It is fun for the occasional viewer who don't really understand the essence of F1. That is probably the reason why this is happening, to get a wider/bigger viewing count a hopefully get a good value for stock at the flotation in Singapore. Also the same reason why some drivers and teams are not speaking there minds, because the have got big shares in the stock and don't want to lose money due to bad PR.

#1231 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:06

only that some teams have difficulty understanding these tyres. And that, he roundly admits.

some teams? that's a serious understatement
all the teams you mean....

#1232 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:07

so this must be the reason for the performance gap.


Thats your assumption, while Button never said this. He couldv easely said so, but pointed to other problems, wich apparently would not be solved in a day.

He had 3 days in Mugello to do an attemt at solving but chose not to go. Stop crying then, is what I think, as a Button fan btw.

#1233 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:09

some teams? that's a serious understatement
all the teams you mean....


Well, in various degrees of difficulty, with Lotus doing well everywhere, and Merc and Mclaren having bigger consistency problems.

#1234 Kvothe

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:11

Thats your assumption, while Button never said this. He couldv easely said so, but pointed to other problems, wich apparently would not be solved in a day.

He had 3 days in Mugello to do an attemt at solving but chose not to go. Stop crying then, is what I think, as a Button fan btw.


How would running at Mugello have helped him? First off all the only comparable track to it is the low speed one of Monza not a high downforce one such as Barcelona? The issue was clearly with the tyres, and as we've seen the characteristics of the tyres and who benefits from them seem to vary from track to track. It's highly likely that had Button gone to Mugello he would have been in the same position regardless.

#1235 Markn93

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:12

A more direct comparisment would be Melbourne. In 2000 the pole time was 1.30.5. This year it was 1.24.9. last year it was 1.23 something.

The fastest race lap then was 1.31.4 while this year it was 1.29.1. Then off course, you had refueling so you could run 2 or 3 times on much lower tanks with newer tyres.

In general the racing has not gotten worse or better, the total race time then in 2000 was 1 hour 34 minutes, and this year it was one hour and 34 minutes.

So at least in time it doesnt make any difference, these Pirellis or then the Bridgestones. The overal race was run in exactly the same 100% anger as then. The difference was the refuelling and the rare overtaking. If we have to take Webbers words literarly, he wants to race at the same speed as in qualifying. Well then you have to reintroduce refuelling. But overal it doesnt make a lot of difference, only that some teams have difficulty understanding these tyres. And that, he roundly admits.


Yeah I checked Australia times so I see what you mean. I would be interested though to see the average of each race that was raced back then and currently, to see if it's 7 seconds over all those races, (eg Monza, Monaco etc) I think a bigger sample size is needed though before declaring that these cars are 7 seconds faster.

#1236 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:20

How would running at Mugello have helped him? First off all the only comparable track to it is the low speed one of Monza not a high downforce one such as Barcelona? The issue was clearly with the tyres, and as we've seen the characteristics of the tyres and who benefits from them seem to vary from track to track. It's highly likely that had Button gone to Mugello he would have been in the same position regardless.


Mugello has lots of high speed corners. So does Barcelona.

What we also know for a fact, is that Schumacher, and Lotus, used that test to try various settings to understand the tyres better. Buttons name couldv been there too.

Yeah I checked Australia times so I see what you mean. I would be interested though to see the average of each race that was raced back then and currently, to see if it's 7 seconds over all those races, (eg Monza, Monaco etc) I think a bigger sample size is needed though before declaring that these cars are 7 seconds faster.


The downforce levels have more or less remained the same, the engine power reduced by at least 150 bhp and the weight of the cars is now 40kgs higher than then.

So yes, the current tyres are much better than those hard ass, grooved Bridgestones. At least in qualifying. In fact we could say we now have qualifying tyres back, wich dont reproduce that level in the race. And thats exactly as the doctor (FIA, teams) ordered iirc. Didnt Withmarsh say last year he wanted the tyres to be more adventurous?

Edited by TheBunk, 16 May 2012 - 12:21.


#1237 Kvothe

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:32

Mugello has lots of high speed corners. So does Barcelona.

What we also know for a fact, is that Schumacher, and Lotus, used that test to try various settings to understand the tyres better. Buttons name couldv been there too.

For what purpose, they barely ran any of the updates apart from the front wing for one of the laps.

The performance and the operating range of the tyres changes appears to vary from track to track so any knowledge gained can't be generalised. Most of the drivers that went there considered it a waste of time, and as Horner said after Barcelona no one understands the tyres yet. Kimi didn't go yet he was perhaps 4 laps away from winning it, Lewis didn't go yet he set pole position and had a chance of winning.

So did the McLaren test drivers, and considering that 99& of driver set-up is done back at Woking via the simulator,


The downforce levels have more or less remained the same, the engine power reduced by at least 150 bhp and the weight of the cars is now 40kgs higher than then.

So yes, the current tyres are much better than those hard ass, grooved Bridgestones. At least in qualifying. In fact we could say we now have qualifying tyres back, wich dont reproduce that level in the race.


Hardly a new fact, its what most of us have been saying.

#1238 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:37

For what purpose, they barely ran any of the updates apart from the front wing for one of the laps.

The performance and the operating range of the tyres changes appears to vary from track to track so any knowledge gained can't be generalised. Most of the drivers that went there considered it a waste of time, and as Horner said after Barcelona no one understands the tyres yet. Kimi didn't go yet he was perhaps 4 laps away from winning it, Lewis didn't go yet he set pole position and had a chance of winning.

So did the McLaren test drivers, and considering that 99& of driver set-up is done back at Woking via the simulator,


Thats all fine but Kimi didnt have problems with the tyres.

Schumacher explicitly said he tested to understand the tyres better. 144 laps on one day of plenty of info. You still want to maintain Button testing there was gonna be fruitless?

#1239 Kvothe

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:48

Thats all fine but Kimi didnt have problems with the tyres.

Schumacher explicitly said he tested to understand the tyres better. 144 laps on one day of plenty of info. You still want to maintain Button testing there was gonna be fruitless?


Well you come back and let me know when it starts paying off for Schumacher....I saw no evidence of it in Barcelona, in fact Rosberg (who did go testing) and stated he had learnt a lot barely held off Hamilton on a two stopper despite having done three stops himself.

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#1240 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:53

Well you come back and let me know when it starts paying off for Schumacher....I saw no evidence of it in Barcelona, in fact Rosberg (who did go testing) and stated he had learnt a lot barely held off Hamilton on a two stopper despite having done three stops himself.


Whether it pays offis another. Barcelona was never gonna suit Mercedes anyway. Who knows they mightv done way worse without that testing.

The point was you said Mugello was not good for testing tyres because the track was so different. These Mercedes boys said otherwise.

I tend to think if it was good for Merc, it wouldv been good for Jenson.

#1241 Markn93

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:57

Whether it pays offis another. Barcelona was never gonna suit Mercedes anyway. Who knows they mightv done way worse without that testing.

The point was you said Mugello was not good for testing tyres because the track was so different. These Mercedes boys said otherwise.

I tend to think if it was good for Merc, it wouldv been good for Jenson.


But you've heard it from the horse's mouth (sorry JB) that it was not to his detriment not going. Is it because you dislike McLaren that you don't believe him but are perfectly prepared to accept what the Mercedes boys said?

#1242 Kvothe

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:59

Whether it pays offis another. Barcelona was never gonna suit Mercedes anyway. Who knows they mightv done way worse without that testing.

The point was you said Mugello was not good for testing tyres because the track was so different. These Mercedes boys said otherwise.

I tend to think if it was good for Merc, it wouldv been good for Jenson.


Yes but I also said that the tyres seem to vary so much from track to track that it is difficult to generalise any knowledge gained at one track to another.

I think it was good for Merc too, what with Rosberg haemorrhaging those positions at the end and almost losing out to Lewis on a two stop.

#1243 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 13:04

But you've heard it from the horse's mouth (sorry JB) that it was not to his detriment not going. Is it because you dislike McLaren that you don't believe him but are perfectly prepared to accept what the Mercedes boys said?


Im a Button fan but I think he made a mistake not going. He said no new parts came along thats why he didnt go, but I think he underestimated how much troubles he would get with the tyres.

Yes but I also said that the tyres seem to vary so much from track to track that it is difficult to generalise any knowledge gained at one track to another.

I think it was good for Merc too, what with Rosberg haemorrhaging those positions at the end and almost losing out to Lewis on a two stop.


Merc quoted a car problem slowed Rosberg in the end.

And still, he ended in front of both Mclarens. So it must be 1 - 0 for Merc doing tyre testing with their drivers at Mugello and mclaren not.

#1244 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 13:06

Well, in various degrees of difficulty, with Lotus doing well everywhere, and Merc and Mclaren having bigger consistency problems.

Lotus struggled badly in China for instance and didn quite nail a win while 5 other teams did.

there are 11 other teams other than lotus with ups and downs

who exactly has understood the tyres/

#1245 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 13:10

Lotus struggled badly in China for instance and didn quite nail a win while 5 other teams did.

there are 11 other teams other than lotus with ups and downs

who exactly has understood the tyres/


They also said they made little mistakes themselves. Kimi and the team admitted that. So did Mclaren.

#1246 ali_M

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 13:25

Thats your assumption, while Button never said this. He couldv easely said so, but pointed to other problems, wich apparently would not be solved in a day.

He had 3 days in Mugello to do an attemt at solving but chose not to go. Stop crying then, is what I think, as a Button fan btw.


It's not Button's style to address the issue of a performance gap unless he is directly asked about it. He's doing his own thing and is very comfortable about the fact that he can take a race to Hamilton given that they're both comfortable with the car on a given race day and during the race. He had a lot of problems in Spain and explained why. He doesn't understand the tyres. Plain and simple. Nothing else needs to be said.

#1247 Kompressor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:03

James Allen seems to have the tires figured out.
"Getting the planning right
On Friday practice, with track temperatures above 40 degrees, the soft tyre was working well as a race tyre. However expectation before the weekend was that the temperatures would be lower on race day than the rest of the weekend.

This led some teams to plan to save three new sets of hard tyres for the race, as these have a lower working temperature range than the softs and would therefore come into their own in those conditions. This turned out to be the correct thing to do; the track was at 44 degrees on Saturday and this dropped to 32 degrees on Sunday and the hard was the faster tyre." http://www.jamesalle...ish-grand-prix/


The tires are affected by temperature and degrade faster in dirty air. There isn't really a way to test for temperature. A car that works perfect at 44º on soft tires might struggle on hard tires at 32º with the same set up from qualifying.



#1248 RealRacing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:51

Most polls are also disagreeing with Hughes. Most fans love this season, and have seen a Williams and a Mercedes win in a fantastic style.


Would love to see concrete evidence of these polls and some sort of valid quantitative measure of "most fans love this season"...


#1249 schubacca

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:58

James Allen seems to have the tires figured out.
"Getting the planning right
On Friday practice, with track temperatures above 40 degrees, the soft tyre was working well as a race tyre. However expectation before the weekend was that the temperatures would be lower on race day than the rest of the weekend.

This led some teams to plan to save three new sets of hard tyres for the race, as these have a lower working temperature range than the softs and would therefore come into their own in those conditions. This turned out to be the correct thing to do; the track was at 44 degrees on Saturday and this dropped to 32 degrees on Sunday and the hard was the faster tyre." http://www.jamesalle...ish-grand-prix/


The tires are affected by temperature and degrade faster in dirty air. There isn't really a way to test for temperature. A car that works perfect at 44º on soft tires might struggle on hard tires at 32º with the same set up from qualifying.


Smarter men than James Allen have not figured out this tyres yet :)



#1250 TheBunk

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 16:02

Would love to see concrete evidence of these polls and some sort of valid quantitative measure of "most fans love this season"...


http://forums.autosp...howtopic=167612

This is one. There are others on this board. Do a search.