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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#201 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:49

They were asked to make tyres like this, they complied.


They can make hard tyres which last forever, see the 2011 Hard Tyre.


No they were not asked to make tires like this. They were asked for strategic differences in the compounds, not a carton of eggs and a one hit wonder. They were also asked to reduce marbles, but in CHina you could rebuild whole tires from the debris on the straight. This was the bane for Kimi and lesser extent Alonso and Grosjean. Once of line, the marbles were hideous. You need to get offline to overtake so...

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#202 Figure8

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:49

The problem is MS is benchmarking an era when tyres were practically designed around him, add to that the fastest car and you had a happy MS.

Now the tyres are not designed around him and he doesn't have the fastest car and he is all sad, had he won this weekend he would not have said these things.

F1 has always been a sport where you have to protect your equipment to some extent, is he honestly trying to tell people that in the 70's and 80's and early 90's people were not managing their cars and coping with all kinds of issues and degradation, I watched tons of races where peoples' tyres/gearboxes/engines went away from them all sorts there has always been an 'endurance element' in F1, it was very rare indeed that races were run at qualifying pace this is an absolute myth. The late 90's early into the next decade were the odd era, that just happens to have been MS's golden age and therefore what he classes as normal, but it is in fact those years that were abnormal, Vettel by contrast probably felt his tyres were rather good.

Maybe the Pirelli's are a little too soft maybe they are not but a lot of the stuff coming out of MS and Mercedes is utterly disingenuous, it's no coincidence the Merc is the hardest of all current cars on its tyres.

#203 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:50

The only thing I don't get is why everyone is coming out of the woodwork in condemnation of these tyres this weekend in particular. It's been like this since the very start of the Pirelli era, yet only a handful of us were complaining about it - I was beginning to think I was crazy saying the things I was saying about them, now all of a sudden I feel completely vindicated. Schumacher and Rosberg have come out and said practically word for word what some of us have been saying for a while now.

You're more on the ball than the rest of us :p In all seriousness though; last year i didnt think they were ruining the races at all. It was a refreshing change to see the races being so open, + i think Pirelli started going with the harder compounds when they could too. This year so far has been ridiculous.... Watching the Chinese race i was completely dumbstruck at all these cars on that long straight just driving around in formation, looking after their tyres - its just not F1 to me. Tyres should not be such a huge deciding factor.

#204 tormave

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:53

I very much doubt that.

That's just obtuse. The whole Pirelli tyre construction has layers specifically intended to wear off and produce the drop-off in performance. Making a tyre with more durability or linear performance behaviour would've been a lot easier. The current races remind me of the ones in the mid 80s with the turbo cars chewing the rear tyres to bits while the Cosworth cars could make the same tyres last longer but with slower lap times.

#205 wepmob2000

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:54

GP2 of 2 generations ago was producing quality racing. That car had side-skirts and semi-wing car underpanel. There are hint everywhere. Cars of good balanced aero doesnt need gimmicks like DRS and current tyres. more but moderate wing car (under-the-floor downforce) and smaller/thinner wings might be the answer.
I dont know exact spec for new 2014 rule but F1 car needs whole concept change.


2014 specs in their original form had the good ideas you mention, but these plans were then watered down...... :mad:

#206 Diablobb81

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:59

The problem is MS is benchmarking an era when tyres were practically designed around him, add to that the fastest car and you had a happy MS.

Now the tyres are not designed around him and he doesn't have the fastest car and he is all sad, had he won this weekend he would not have said these things.

F1 has always been a sport where you have to protect your equipment to some extent, is he honestly trying to tell people that in the 70's and 80's and early 90's people were not managing their cars and coping with all kinds of issues and degradation, I watched tons of races where peoples' tyres/gearboxes/engines went away from them all sorts there has always been an 'endurance element' in F1, it was very rare indeed that races were run at qualifying pace this is an absolute myth. The late 90's early into the next decade were the odd era, that just happens to have been MS's golden age and therefore what he classes as normal, but it is in fact those years that were abnormal, Vettel by contrast probably felt his tyres were rather good.

Maybe the Pirelli's are a little too soft maybe they are not but a lot of the stuff coming out of MS and Mercedes is utterly disingenuous, it's no coincidence the Merc is the hardest of all current cars on its tyres.


- Michael raced with different tires, so you are wrong
- Merc isn't the hardest on it's tires, so you are wrong again
- Tire management was and should be a part of racing and driver skill. It shouldn't be the way most important factor.

For anyone who wants to see what the real situation is (not the PR bullshit releases we get after races and quali) just listen to the pit radios in the link i posted. It's eye opening.

Edited by Diablobb81, 22 April 2012 - 19:03.


#207 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:02

- Michael raced with different tires, so you are wrong
- Merc isn't the hardest on it's tires, so you are wrong again
- Tire management was and should be a part of racing and driver skill. It shouldn't be the way most important factor.

For anyone who wants to see what the real situation is (not the PR bullshits release we get after races and quali) just listen to the pit radios in the link i posted. It's eye opening.



It's worth quoting in full Mark Hughes' article following the Chinese GP last year about this:


"The fast-wearing traits of the Pirelli F1 tyres made for a great Chinese Grand Prix; strategic variation and hugely different performance levels according to compound and usage - enough to create overtaking even without the help of DRS wings and KERS. But there is a price.

The game has changed. Driving a grand prix is now a matter of tyre conservation. The most effective way of minimising your stint time now is not to drive flat-out but to begin it around 3s off the pace and only gradually begin to push harder - at about the same rate the tyre grip is dropping off, the two largely cancelling each other out so the net effect is near enough the same lap time throughout the stint. Hamilton's victory might have looked flat-out, but it wasn't. "I was just trying to nurse my tyres while trying to pick up pace," he said afterwards. If you didn't know better, you might think it was endurance racing. Except that in endurance racing they now drive flat-out the whole way - just like they used to in F1!

Anthony Davidson's F1 career didn't take off in the way it might have, but he's still driving flat-out - in endurance racing for Peugeot. Here's his take on it: "We do drive pretty much all-out from the start. Just as in anything, you are driving to the level of the tyre and if the tyre will take it, you cannot afford not to. My quadruple stint at Le Mans last year, which was the quickest ever, was about driving every lap like a qualifying lap. But we can't always do that. At Paul Ricard, for example, it's a very front-tyre limited track and we're finding we are having to save the tyre early in the stint to give us the fastest overall time. The mentality of F1 driving is now shifting towards that. I wouldn't say it's better or worse, just different. What's better, the 100-metre sprint or the London Marathon?"

Some drivers are adapting to it more naturally than others. Pirelli found, for example, that Fernando Alonso was initially very aggressive with the tyres, particularly the fronts, but say that he's now found the sweet spot of technique. It would be fair to say that both Hamilton and Mark Webber are only reluctantly coming to terms with the less-is-more approach. Although in Melbourne Lewis's tyres were holding out better than Sebastian Vettel's, at the more tyre-demanding venue of Sepang, flat-spotting a set of softs in qualifying eventually cost him dear in the race, forcing him onto a well-used set of hards in his third stint that left him off the pace and eventually led to a late fourth stop. "These tyres are finished," he said, after sliding off, "I'm coming in." The team implored him to stay out, pointing out there were only three laps left, but in he came anyway.

Webber, who tends to keep the lateral load on the car just that little bit longer than Vettel, is proving harder on the rubber than his team-mate and is disdainful of people being able to get in the points by driving at not much more than GP2 pace for big parts of the race. A Moto GP bike, with only two tiny strips of rubber, can lap Sepang within 13s of the times the lower order points scorers were doing in the race there. Teams are now instructing drivers to use coasting techniques into the braking areas, for if they are having to drive off the pace for the sake of tyre life, they may as well save fuel and enable the car to start lighter. In F1! It's somewhat ironic that the sport rejected Michelin's proposal to use an F1 programme to promote fuel economy tyres, yet inadvertently that's exactly what we have now.

Does it matter? If the 'show' is good, what's the problem? The problem is that F1 races have always been contested as close to flat-out as they possibly could be, given the technology of the era. For the first time, we have deliberately introduced technology that enforces endurance driving. In China the excellent show disguised that. But it won't always."


Edited by PretentiousBread, 22 April 2012 - 19:03.


#208 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:12

The problem is MS is benchmarking an era when tyres were practically designed around him, add to that the fastest car and you had a happy MS.

Now the tyres are not designed around him and he doesn't have the fastest car and he is all sad, had he won this weekend he would not have said these things.

F1 has always been a sport where you have to protect your equipment to some extent, is he honestly trying to tell people that in the 70's and 80's and early 90's people were not managing their cars and coping with all kinds of issues and degradation, I watched tons of races where peoples' tyres/gearboxes/engines went away from them all sorts there has always been an 'endurance element' in F1, it was very rare indeed that races were run at qualifying pace this is an absolute myth. The late 90's early into the next decade were the odd era, that just happens to have been MS's golden age and therefore what he classes as normal, but it is in fact those years that were abnormal, Vettel by contrast probably felt his tyres were rather good.

Maybe the Pirelli's are a little too soft maybe they are not but a lot of the stuff coming out of MS and Mercedes is utterly disingenuous, it's no coincidence the Merc is the hardest of all current cars on its tyres.


I don't even know where to start with this post. Wow.

#209 Figure8

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:13

well have a go at least.

#210 glorius&victorius

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:14

Michael needs to learn and accept that these are not Bridgestone tires. Just like Boullier said about Kimi after China: he needs to learn that the Pirelli tires are not Bridgestones.

And if he complains.... maybe its time to pack his helmet and go and give the spot to a young and upcoming star who will learn quicker than him. (... I am sure that Adrian Sutil would do better races than Michael).

Over the past three years I have not heard Michael raise one word about the Pirelli tires. During winter testing there was no vocal complaints about the tires.
Last week when they made front row in China, he said its all about understanding the tires and managing them. It sounded like he was confident in knowing what to do. His team mate won that race.

Now suddenly he's put off by the tires???

Edited by glorius&victorius, 22 April 2012 - 19:17.


#211 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:17

Thats a bizarre argument as you're not comparing like with like, there's no such thing as a Horsey-Chicken, just Horses and Chickens..... None of the sports you've mentioned rely on the equipment used like F1. Usain Bolt isn't going to fail to win a race because he's wearing adidas and not Nike, and nor is Man U going to fail to beat Chelsea for the same reason. In most sports talent and ability are probably 98% of the equation, with the equipment used being a small factor. F1 is completely the opposite, like it or not, none of the top drivers will win in an HRT and invariably the best cars win the most races. F1 results are probably 98% reliant on the cars and engineers in the teams with the drivers adding that little extra edge........

If you want true competion in F1 in the same sense as Football or Athletics you need teams running 100% spec cars prepared by one governing organisation. Somehow I think that would with howls of protest too.....


Its not a point about equipment, its about the incessant desire/need, to provide a spectacle/entertainment. Take swimming for example. There are only a handful of genuinely exciting races. The rest are not ultras close action replay events. Most of them are dull and boring. Most relays are dull, with one team way ahead and a battle for the minor places. Not everything can be entertaining. In this pursuit to spice up F1, soon this level of overtakes won't be enough and they'll introduce another rule/gimmick to spice up the show. I've stayed faithful to F1, because it is real. Yes most races are boring, but that's the price you pay and that is why the memorable races, are memorable. 2006 to 2010 were good years IMO

#212 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:20

Maybe he is done with PR-friendly talk? He raced a plethora of tires and won on all of them.

#213 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:21

Michael needs to learn and accept that these are not Bridgestone tires. Just like Boullier said about Kimi after China: he needs to learn that the Pirelli tires are not Bridgestones.

And if he complains.... maybe its time to pack his helmet and go and give the spot to a young and upcoming star who will learn quicker than him. (... I am sure that Adrian Sutil would do better races than Michael).

Over the past three years I have not heard Michael raise one word about the Pirelli tires. During winter testing there was no vocal complaints about the tires.
Last week when they made front row in China, he said its all about understanding the tires and managing them. It sounded like he was confident in knowing what to do. His team mate won that race.

Now suddenly he's put off by the tires???


Rosberg was saying the same things :wave:

#214 Figure8

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:25

Yes he was, but he wasn't saying them after he won was he? Indeed he was saying Mercedes were on top of their tyre issues.

#215 rolf123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

The problem is MS is benchmarking an era when tyres were practically designed around him, add to that the fastest car and you had a happy MS.

Now the tyres are not designed around him and he doesn't have the fastest car and he is all sad, had he won this weekend he would not have said these things.


Agreed, when he was winning he was the face of F1 and I was begging for him to say something about dirty air and he never did. That all started to go wrong around 1995 and Schumi didn't pipe up for well over 10 years, not even a smidgen.


I don't like this sort of endurance racing. I don't understand people who say that's what Pirelli were asked to do. That's not true at all. Pirelli were asked to make tyres that degraded more, not tyres that operated in a narrow, random envelope. Nobody ever asked for this.

We need a tyre war but in this world economic climate, we'll never get one.

Saying this, didn't Senna catch up Prost in Suzuka in the late 80s where Prost couldn't go faster because he needed to save his tyres and Ayrton could somehow afford to cane his? Not sure how or why....?

#216 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

Yes he was, but he wasn't saying them after he won was he? Indeed he was saying Mercedes were on top of their tyre issues.


Actually I believe he said that he didn't push hard at all during the race.

#217 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

Yes he was, but he wasn't saying them after he won was he? Indeed he was saying Mercedes were on top of their tyre issues.


He's saying that he and 80% of the field is bored with running 60-70%, almost like on a safety car. If you try something, your tires are shot and you'll lose 12 places. For reference, see Kimi last race. He twitched and the tires were gone...

#218 cilurnum

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:27

Both Rosberg and Schumacher were interviewed by the german TV about the tyres after the Bahrain GP and Schumacher was not happy, he was very frustrated. He said it's not fun to drive with tyres like this and Lauda said he understands him because it's not fun for any driver to drive slow just because of the tyres.

I'm afraid they are just whinging because they know their car has severe trouble on the tyre conservation front.

Someone needs to tell Schumacher in particular, that we are never going back to the days of customised Bridgestones for him. The race today was far too entertaining for that anyway.

#219 spacekid

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:31

And if he complains.... maybe its time to pack his helmet and go and give the spot to a young and upcoming star who will learn quicker than him. (... I am sure that Adrian Sutil would do better races than Michael).

Over the past three years I have not heard Michael raise one word about the Pirelli tires.


You seriously think that Sutil would have finished todays race higher than 10th? Where do you think he would have finished, ahead of Rosberg?


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#220 spacekid

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:32

He's saying that he and 80% of the field is bored with running 60-70%, almost like on a safety car. If you try something, your tires are shot and you'll lose 12 places. For reference, see Kimi last race. He twitched and the tires were gone...


I think we'll hear more drivers saying similar things if races cotinue as they have.

#221 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:33

Most of the time, Schumacher didn't have custom fit tires.

I saw this race with an immense gap from the no4. onwards. When Vettel pitted and came back in front of Kimi, I knew it was done. If Kimi wanted to do something, Grosjean would be second and Kimi would loose 5 sec/lap. :p

#222 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:33

In this pursuit to spice up F1, soon this level of overtakes won't be enough and they'll introduce another rule/gimmick to spice up the show.

I doubt that people are ever going to complain about the number of overtakes if F1 stays like this.

He's saying that he and 80% of the field is bored with running 60-70%, almost like on a safety car. If you try something, your tires are shot and you'll lose 12 places. For reference, see Kimi last race. He twitched and the tires were gone...

Kimi didn't ruin his tires, he got on the marbles and lost grip for a while.

Also saying 'almost like on a safety car' is a massive exaggeration.

Edited by Seanspeed, 22 April 2012 - 19:39.


#223 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:37

Yes he was, but he wasn't saying them after he won was he? Indeed he was saying Mercedes were on top of their tyre issues.


It's not about whether or not they're on top of their tyre issues, it's the fundamental inability to race in the traditional sense on these Pirelli's that he's referring to. He said before the start of the season you can't push on the Pirellis, he said at his track guide of Shanghai back in 2011 how he needed to take it easy into every corner. There's nothing inconsistent about what he's saying, it's not just down to his 'mood'. He finished 5th, miles ahead of his team mate and as high up as the level of the Merc would allow today so he has every reason to be satisfied with the job he's done.

#224 Aubwi

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:41

A lot of the drivers today remember the grooved tires. Schumacher in particular had most of his successes on those. The grooves had the weird effect of the tires actually improving somewhat after many laps. That's probably the main reason the drivers could just do "qualifying" laps for the whole race. But that's not necessarily what racing is about IMO. Nursing the tires has been prevalent for most of F1's history, and of course you see it in other racing series. It's just part of racing.

#225 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:41

I doubt that people are ever going to complain about the number of overtakes if F1 stays like this.


Kimi didn't ruin his tires, he got on the marbles and lost grip for a while.

Also saying 'almost like on a safety car' is a massive exaggeration.


Lol, the marbles lasted till the end of the race then? Kimi lost due to using his tires in defence. One wheelspin and you loose enough rubber to regret it for a long time.
The safety car words are not mine, it is hard to find the original footage of him saying that.

#226 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:42

well have a go at least.


Diablobb81 and Mark Hughes post seemed to have already beat me to it.

#227 BeanTheGene

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:42

- Michael raced with different tires, so you are wrong
- Merc isn't the hardest on it's tires, so you are wrong again
- Tire management was and should be a part of racing and driver skill. It shouldn't be the way most important factor.

For anyone who wants to see what the real situation is (not the PR bullshit releases we get after races and quali) just listen to the pit radios in the link i posted. It's eye opening.


Without fuel stops, the tires dictate the stops... so the drivers must give feedback when they feel the tires are going off. You didn't need that feedback nearly as much (or ever, really) when we had refuelling.

One of the reasons I like the Pirelli era is that you have a much larger opportunity to change your strategy as the race unfolds to react to track position, track conditions, and tire wear.

I actually heard several transmissions telling drivers to push in the pit audio.

#228 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:42

I'm afraid they are just whinging because they know their car has severe trouble on the tyre conservation front.

Someone needs to tell Schumacher in particular, that we are never going back to the days of customised Bridgestones for him. The race today was far too entertaining for that anyway.


What exactly was entertaining about the race today?

#229 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:43

well have a go at least.


Diablobb81 and Mark Hughes post seemed to have already beat me to it.

#230 jesee

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:46

It is not often that i agree with Schumacker. I think the tires are playing such a big role to the extent you cant even know that a set-up which works today will work tomorrow. It is no longer man against machine, but who treads around carefully around the track. I don't think this is real racing for me. I want to see the fastest driver with the fastest car not the most conservative driver on tires. Maybe iam old fashioned and not into big brother television.

Edited by jesee, 22 April 2012 - 19:50.


#231 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:47

I doubt that people are ever going to complain about the number of overtakes if F1 stays like this.


Kimi didn't ruin his tires, he got on the marbles and lost grip for a while.

Also saying 'almost like on a safety car' is a massive exaggeration.


Of course it is, he's speaking figuratively. But he's basically right - try to overtake after a long battle and you'll have lost as much as you've gained, like Hamilton overtaking Button at Istanbul last year only for his tyres to be shot and Button retake the position.

That's probably what would have happened to Raikkonen had he made his move stick on Vettel today. He couldn't get past because he had one opportunity before his tyres went to shit.

#232 Diablobb81

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:47

Without fuel stops, the tires dictate the stops... so the drivers must give feedback when they feel the tires are going off. You didn't need that feedback nearly as much (or ever, really) when we had refuelling.

One of the reasons I like the Pirelli era is that you have a much larger opportunity to change your strategy as the race unfolds to react to track position, track conditions, and tire wear.

I actually heard several transmissions telling drivers to push in the pit audio.


Problem is that most of the info came form the pits to tell the drivers to manage tires, to just get 1-2 more laps form them, not info from drivers about the tires. You missed the desperate call from RG?

Who changed (significantly) their strategy? Not just one lap less or late (which might be very penalizing in itself).

I heard drivers and pit talk about their pace (which might have been faster than others), not about pushing.

Edited by Diablobb81, 22 April 2012 - 19:48.


#233 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:47

I'm afraid they are just whinging because they know their car has severe trouble on the tyre conservation front.

Someone needs to tell Schumacher in particular, that we are never going back to the days of customised Bridgestones for him. The race today was far too entertaining for that anyway.


1. Erm, in the last race they had one less pitstop than anyone else and walked away with the race.
2. Schumacher went YEARS without customised tyres. Hell some of his best years were before he won all those championships with Ferrari.
3. The race today was entertaining? Didn't you notice how slowly the drivers were taking the corners and exiting? How they were deliberately driving around slowly, clearly trying to meet a delta time and not push the tyres at all?

Hmm. I guess another issue might be simply that to the casual viewer, it looks like these guys are completely pushing and that these are the fastest cars in the world by a long mile. To most core F1 fans though it's clear to see how slowly they were driving. Someone posted up the radio messages on the previous page and it says it all really.

#234 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:50

1. Erm, in the last race they had one less pitstop than anyone else and walked away with the race.
2. Schumacher went YEARS without customised tyres. Hell some of his best years were before he won all those championships with Ferrari.
3. The race today was entertaining? Didn't you notice how slowly the drivers were taking the corners and exiting? How they were deliberately driving around slowly, clearly trying to meet a delta time and not push the tyres at all?

Hmm. I guess another issue might be simply that to the casual viewer, it looks like these guys are completely pushing and that these are the fastest cars in the world by a long mile. To most core F1 fans though it's clear to see how slowly they were driving. Someone posted up the radio messages on the previous page and it says it all really.


Crux of the problem.

#235 rolf123

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:51

1. Erm, in the last race they had one less pitstop than anyone else and walked away with the race.
2. Schumacher went YEARS without customised tyres. Hell some of his best years were before he won all those championships with Ferrari.
3. The race today was entertaining? Didn't you notice how slowly the drivers were taking the corners and exiting? How they were deliberately driving around slowly, clearly trying to meet a delta time and not push the tyres at all?

Hmm. I guess another issue might be simply that to the casual viewer, it looks like these guys are completely pushing and that these are the fastest cars in the world by a long mile. To most core F1 fans though it's clear to see how slowly they were driving. Someone posted up the radio messages on the previous page and it says it all really.


To be fair, the driving doesn't look any different from the outside to me. OK, there are less instances of oversteer and driving errors that you would get on the limit, but otherwise I don't see much of a difference in the attitude of the car.

Maybe I have more than one eye on the live Autosport forum and should pay more attention to the actual race! :D

#236 sosidge

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:57

Tyre management is a valid skill for a racing driver. This is a Grand Prix, not a 30-minute sprint race.

Having said that, the tyres do seem even more inconsistent track-to-track this year. It is entertaining to see such a variety of cars at the front, but it is also frustrating because it's hard to judge how much of the speed is a good car/driver, and how much of it is catching the tyres in that moment's sweet-spot.

There is no way that F1 should go back to the "perfect" Bridgestone-style tyres though.

#237 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:58

To be fair, the driving doesn't look any different from the outside to me. OK, there are less instances of oversteer and driving errors that you would get on the limit, but otherwise I don't see much of a difference in the attitude of the car.

Maybe I have more than one eye on the live Autosport forum and should pay more attention to the actual race! :D


That's one tell-tale, another is all the short shifting. But just look at the lap times, why are they barely that much faster than the GP2 cars yet are light-years ahead in qualifying?

#238 1001

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:00

It's not really tyre deg that's the issue, it's the tiny operating window of the tyres that means which teams are fast is largely down to the weather.

#239 cilurnum

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:03

1. Erm, in the last race they had one less pitstop than anyone else and walked away with the race.

They admitted themselves they'd got the tyres into a very narrow window which they lucked into. They reverted to type today.

2. Schumacher went YEARS without customised tyres. Hell some of his best years were before he won all those championships with Ferrari.

It was the only way he could win all those championships with Ferrari, that's the point. That's the direction he went in.

3. The race today was entertaining? Didn't you notice how slowly the drivers were taking the corners and exiting? How they were deliberately driving around slowly, clearly trying to meet a delta time and not push the tyres at all?

Of course if we want to go back to unlimited tyre changes, refuelling, get the car on pole and short fill to stay ahead and have zero overtaking with the race leader never under threat and a minute down the road............yer. Sorry Merc and Michael, but we ain't going back to that.

Didn't you notice how slowly the drivers were taking the corners and exiting? How they were deliberately driving around slowly, clearly trying to meet a delta time and not push the tyres at all?

Yer, and? We've had tyre conservation in Formula 1 before and some of the sport's best years were when that was being done. It's not like this is anything new nor do I see what the problem is with it.

Comments like those from Schumacher and Rosberg when they're effectively questioning and trying to change the rules of the sport for what they see as best advantage to them smacks of a team under pressure.

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#240 Jake360

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:04

The thing that bugs me is qually. I think for every qually session you compete in you get a extra set of soft tyres, but at the end of the session you have to give a set back.

And drivers do push during the race. I'd be very suprised if Vettel and Kimi wern't going like stabbed rats for the last 10 laps of the race...

#241 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:05

Of course it is, he's speaking figuratively. But he's basically right - try to overtake after a long battle and you'll have lost as much as you've gained, like Hamilton overtaking Button at Istanbul last year only for his tyres to be shot and Button retake the position.

That's probably what would have happened to Raikkonen had he made his move stick on Vettel today. He couldn't get past because he had one opportunity before his tyres went to shit.

If you have a long battle with somebody, yes, its going to hurt the tires. It was the same with the Bridgestones and its a 'phenomenon' not exclusive to F1.

I mean, that video you showed of Lewis passing Button and then getting repassed was some great action if you ask me. I dont think we'd have seen anything like that with the Bridgestone tires. Yes, being behind somebody is not a good situation to be in as you've got to work your tires harder to get past, but plenty of people do it without completely destroying them, and all in all, it creates far more action than it ruins. A fair trade-off if you ask me.

Also, didn't Lewis say recently that the Pirelli's were difficult, but also fun because of the better racing?

Edited by Seanspeed, 22 April 2012 - 20:09.


#242 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:05

Compare how often Hamilton had to correct the car here

with Vettel in 2011


#243 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:07

The thing that bugs me is qually. I think for every qually session you compete in you get a extra set of soft tyres, but at the end of the session you have to give a set back.

And drivers do push during the race. I'd be very suprised if Vettel and Kimi wern't going like stabbed rats for the last 10 laps of the race...


They were pushing but only around 70% or so. If you catch the replay look at early Seb is on the brakes and how easy he is on throttle. You can tell no driver out there was really pushing the car because if you do find 3-4 tenths in one lap, your tyres will degrade much quicker and in the long run it'll cost you much more than the time you made up. Kimi's onboards show it very well.

Michael mentioned that he was driving against a delta which quite frankly is astonishing to believe, I can't believe that's what they are doing out there.

#244 bauss

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:08

It is not often that i agree with Schumacker. I think the tires are playing such a big role to the extent you cant even know that a set-up which works today will work tomorrow. It is no longer man against machine, but who treads around carefully around the track. I don't think this is real racing for me. I want to see the fastest driver with the fastest car not the most conservative driver on tires. Maybe iam old fashioned and not into big brother television.


man against pancake tires

#245 swiniodzik

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:09

Different tyre strategies have been brought back to the sport by Pirelli and that's how it should be. Tyre management is an important skill that should play a role. But not to the the point where the 'less' stoppers more often than not fear falling off the cliff at the end of the stint, instead of using the harder but slower compound and just trying to get away with a stop less without that fear.

Tyre wars were bad. You could build a good car but be screwed by your tyre supplier who would create an inferior tyre. The one supplier situation is ok and while the hard like a rock Bridgestones made races too dull and predictable and something had to be done, I can't help thinking that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater by Pirelli. We've basically gone from one extreme to the other. From where tyre management wasn't needed to where tyre management is dominating races.

It's more entertaining today but also more lottery-like. The narrow operating window is crazy. One race McLaren and Red Bull look dominant, then Sauber, then Mercedes and now Lotus. Nothing wrong with such a mix if it was mostly down to some engineers and teams getting it more right than the others but it seems to be the case of more lucking into it than doing a better job. A slight change in ambient temperature and your set-up goes from being spot on to being quite bad, that's an out of control situation for the teams. Maybe they will work it out as the season goes on but for so far it's been unacceptable.

But what strikes me the most is that the races are too chaotical to follow these days, at least for me. You rarely know who's really racing who out there until the chequered flag. I saw it especially today when the live-timing didn't work for me, the race was just impossible to follow. In the Bridgestone days you could have one car slowly haunting another one down for, say, twenty laps and then following it for another twenty laps, waiting for a mistake. It could be boring but today was the exact opposite of that boredom when Kimi could just try one move on Vettel before his tyres gave up. I had high hopes when the Pirelli entrance was announced and while still feel it's better now than the Bridgestone era overall, all good and bad things considered it's only better just by a whisker and that's a big let-down.

#246 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:11

man against pancake tires


Man vs Food.


#247 Jake360

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:14

They were pushing but only around 70% or so. If you catch the replay look at early Seb is on the brakes and how easy he is on throttle. You can tell no driver out there was really pushing the car because if you do find 3-4 tenths in one lap, your tyres will degrade much quicker and in the long run it'll cost you much more than the time you made up. Kimi's onboards show it very well.

Michael mentioned that he was driving against a delta which quite frankly is astonishing to believe, I can't believe that's what they are doing out there.


I bet they were pushing as hard as the tyres would reasonably give. During the start of the stint they are fairly soft on tyres as you can seriously harm them during that early stage, but after those initial laps i think the level of throttle and early braking was relative to the amount of grip the tyres had, not preserving them. Just opinion of course but Kimi had nothing to lose, if he burn't his tyres and started losing a second a lap at the end of the race he still had time over Gros. I reckon he was pushing hard, and Vettel was suprised by the speed of the race so he was obviously exceeding any delta times he may of been getting.

#248 Darth Sidious

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:17

Man vs Food.



A brief glimpse into the Pirelli F1 tyre manufacturing unit.



#249 ivand911

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:18

Man vs Food.

This is sure win for the Man.


#250 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:41

Bring back refueling and bridgestone tyres.

+1