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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#251 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:49

Are these the same tyres they did pre season with. I seem to remember most teams saying they could go much longer on these tyres than in 2011. Yet so far this season it seems worse. If they are just racing to a delta time than that is not F1.

Edited by Massa_f1, 22 April 2012 - 20:49.


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#252 F1ultimate

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:51

Different tyre strategies have been brought back to the sport by Pirelli and that's how it should be. Tyre management is an important skill that should play a role. But not to the the point where the 'less' stoppers more often than not fear falling off the cliff at the end of the stint, instead of using the harder but slower compound and just trying to get away with a stop less without that fear.

Tyre wars were bad. You could build a good car but be screwed by your tyre supplier who would create an inferior tyre. The one supplier situation is ok and while the hard like a rock Bridgestones made races too dull and predictable and something had to be done, I can't help thinking that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater by Pirelli. We've basically gone from one extreme to the other. From where tyre management wasn't needed to where tyre management is dominating races.

It's more entertaining today but also more lottery-like. The narrow operating window is crazy. One race McLaren and Red Bull look dominant, then Sauber, then Mercedes and now Lotus. Nothing wrong with such a mix if it was mostly down to some engineers and teams getting it more right than the others but it seems to be the case of more lucking into it than doing a better job. A slight change in ambient temperature and your set-up goes from being spot on to being quite bad, that's an out of control situation for the teams. Maybe they will work it out as the season goes on but for so far it's been unacceptable.

But what strikes me the most is that the races are too chaotical to follow these days, at least for me. You rarely know who's really racing who out there until the chequered flag. I saw it especially today when the live-timing didn't work for me, the race was just impossible to follow. In the Bridgestone days you could have one car slowly haunting another one down for, say, twenty laps and then following it for another twenty laps, waiting for a mistake. It could be boring but today was the exact opposite of that boredom when Kimi could just try one move on Vettel before his tyres gave up. I had high hopes when the Pirelli entrance was announced and while still feel it's better now than the Bridgestone era overall, all good and bad things considered it's only better just by a whisker and that's a big let-down.


I do share some of your sentimate but when tyre management hold drivers hostage to the point that we hear more from the pit wall telling their drivers to slow down for the tyres then to push for position, then something is wrong. Paul Di Resta and Kimi are today's poster boys for how much racing today is bias toward tyre management than car performance or driver skills.

#253 kissTheApex

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:56

Tyre wars were bad. You could build a good car but be screwed by your tyre supplier who would create an inferior tyre. The one supplier situation is ok and while the hard like a rock Bridgestones made races too dull and predictable and something had to be done, I can't help thinking that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater by Pirelli. We've basically gone from one extreme to the other. From where tyre management wasn't needed to where tyre management is dominating races.

:up:

Almost makes me wish that the tire supply should be open to every manufacturer willing to bring tires to race weekends and individual teams settling with the tire/manufacturer suits them the best for a given weekend/track. A tire war era where no team is bound to a company for the whole season.

#254 BeanTheGene

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:56

Problem is that most of the info came form the pits to tell the drivers to manage tires, to just get 1-2 more laps form them, not info from drivers about the tires. You missed the desperate call from RG?

Who changed (significantly) their strategy? Not just one lap less or late (which might be very penalizing in itself).

I heard drivers and pit talk about their pace (which might have been faster than others), not about pushing.


Well I think it's obvious we dont hear every radio trasmission. One desperate call from Romain... one call from the pits to a driver to push... I've heard these calls before and one doesn't tell me that all the drivers are trundling around at safety car speeds and one doesn't tell me that everyone's pushing flat out on the tires. Vettel ran out of fuel... He wasn't pushing? Kimi wasn't pushing him?

I heard a transmission from the MCL pits saying 'we are now going to plan B' or something to that effect. We've had situations where pitting early (with performance left in the tires) was optimum to get the driver out into clear space. Right now we have different drivers in different cars that react differently to different tire compounds. Sounds good to me! 12 Manufacturers coming up with their own solutions to tires, 24 drivers adapting to the tires. It's up to everyone to learn the ins and outs of the tires. It will take time... and in that time, we're getting some fantastic races that we couldn't have ever envisioned during times like the Bridgestone era.

BTW, I wonder if teams were paying attention when Button pit for his puncture... On new tires he was well over 2 seconds a lap faster, and perhaps could have been even quicker depending on how his exhaust/engine issue was costing him. The point is... instead of complaining about how everyone's supposedly not pushing on the tires... Try a 4 stop strategy and punish em for nursing them! I'd think this would be right up Schumi's alley actually. He certainly had the tires available for it. Mark Webber used that strategy to good effect in China last year, right? I'll give you this... at the moment, the teams are certainly too conservative, but that doesn't mean that the tires always have to be treated conservatively. I think the in-season testing will do a lot to make the teams a bit more aggressive with their strategies. Poor Kimi and Sergio... they both lost potential victories because their teams were way too conservative on their final tire stops, missing golden opportunities to undercut.

#255 ivand911

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:56

I think if they widen tyre operational window all will be happy. Nobody really complain against the tyre degradation, we also have it last year, but the working window was bigger. Tires didn't degrade really - 1-1,5 sec over stint is not degradation. All teams manage to keep around that level. The problem is they can't keep the tyre in their working window.
About delta time. How you know if your delta time is conservative or aggressive? Maybe you drive with conservative delta time and you are losing time, instead of driving faster.

Edited by ivand911, 22 April 2012 - 20:59.


#256 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:04

Also saying 'almost like on a safety car' is a massive exaggeration.

It's still about who can cruise around quickest while conserving tyres. Everyone can cruise a car around a track, its the 10% last performance that we never get to see, which sets the true race drivers apart from the rest - which we never get to see nowadays. It's about which car conserves tyres best, which isn't very exciting if you ask me.

Edited by Alx09, 22 April 2012 - 21:09.


#257 Figure8

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:12

I also think that when you have a gaggle of cars all on worn tyres you actually see more driver skill and car control, cars stepping out of line and so on. Usually when cars are setting amazing lap times lap after lap that is because they are easy to drive as time is simply coming to the driver and therefore driver skill is less a factor

The main issue with 'Modern F1' for me is that if a car as behind another with worn tyres even if the guy with the worn tyres is capable of great defensive driving and car control the guy behind only has to flip open a silly little flap or push a button and whiz by - the loss of defensive driving will really be the legacy of this rule set in my opinion.

#258 toxicfusion

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:13

Compare how often Hamilton had to correct the car here

with Vettel in 2011


Two totally different aero regulations, also groves and not slick tyres.

No comparisons can be made.

#259 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:16

Cannot believe people wanna go back to the one stopping impossible to overtake Bridgestones. The horror. We now have a much more varied race, 3 stops vs 2 stops and good if not great racing and overtaking. Perhaps the Pirellis are a bit dependant on temp windows but im sure teams will learn and figure it out.

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#260 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:22

Cannot believe people wanna go back to the one stopping impossible to overtake Bridgestones. The horror.


That's not what we want to go back to. We want to go back to tyres that holds up (as the old ones), as well as cars with mechanical grip and less aero, so you can stay close.

#261 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:25

That's not what we want to go back to. We want to go back to tyres that holds up (as the old ones), as well as cars with mechanical grip and less aero, so you can stay close.


If the tyres hold up they dont stop, wont race any more, and just consolidate positions. Now they have to work for a living. I think it s a good move, even when I see one of my heroes Button struggle like no tomorrow.

#262 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:26

If the tyres hold up they dont stop, wont race any more, and just consolidate positions. Now they have to work for a living. I think it s a good move, even when I see one of my heroes Button struggle like no tomorrow.

I prefer racing that is on the limit, not cruising. As for tyres, Bridgestone had a great balance.

Edited by Alx09, 22 April 2012 - 21:26.


#263 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:27

If the tyres hold up they dont stop, wont race any more, and just consolidate positions. Now they have to work for a living. I think it s a good move, even when I see one of my heroes Button struggle like no tomorrow.


But they aren't working, they've openly stated NUMEROUS times that they are just crusing around, trying to meet a delta.

#264 JV97

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:35

Cannot believe people wanna go back to the one stopping impossible to overtake Bridgestones. The horror. We now have a much more varied race, 3 stops vs 2 stops and good if not great racing and overtaking. Perhaps the Pirellis are a bit dependant on temp windows but im sure teams will learn and figure it out.


We don't.

Are we really saying that Pirelli can't make tyres that have drivers pushing until they're worn out? If anyone wants to conserve tyres, they still can if their style and car make it work. Failing that, others can go agressive and use them up.

I'd like to see Sky or BBC run a quick poll of the drivers asking when they have pushed even 90% in a race. Or ask the teams if a driver went for a flat out stint, how long would the tyres last and would it be counter productive?

Let's see where the truth really lies and then we can have an informed opinion.

Edited by JV97, 22 April 2012 - 21:38.


#265 AlexS

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:37

just crusing around, trying to meet a delta.


BS. Then having to turn in a curve and not having straights is cruising around, so in the past preserving brakes, engines, gearbox was cruising around... You may not like that tires are part of the game but the arguments here are inane.

#266 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:38

The only answer is refuelling and more durable tires. This will allow for the drivers to push far harder during stints, without being able to simply slaps on one set of boots for pretty much the entire race.

Current F1 is so depressing, the best drivers are not being rewarded!

Addition: 2009 regs in my opinion were the best for some time.

Edited by TheSpecialOne, 22 April 2012 - 21:40.


#267 rhukkas

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:39

Never been happier to miss a race than today. Confirming several things for me that have caused my interest to wain over the weeks. Even Schumacher and Rosberg are confirming my doubts.

F1 isn't motorsport, it's a show. A show designed for those whose interest in motorsport is relatively low. They want to sit down on Sunday, and watch a show and go down the pub talking same old bollocks. "hey, did you see the racing today, AMAZING". no it's not amazing, drs is bollocks, it's not amazing!

I don't like F1 and being treated like a gullible idiot. We all know this is a complete mess. I like motorsport, F1 for me is a motorshow, not a motorsport

That's a relief. I hope you all enjoy the rest of the season. You won't miss me but ciao

Edited by rhukkas, 22 April 2012 - 21:42.


#268 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:41

I prefer racing that is on the limit, not cruising. As for tyres, Bridgestone had a great balance.



Yep i prefer to see a drivers do 20 qualfying laps in a race and push his car to the limit. Will we ever see that again in current f1 i doubt it.

Are these Tyres really all the same as each other. If you look at Button he could use the same type of tyres twice in a race, but claim the car is near undriveable.

Still seems like a lottery to me.



#269 sharo

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:51

F1, as long as I remember back, has always been about driving fast and at the same time use the resources in a controlled manner. Tyres included. Great example of that was Alain Prost, very tactical, not always in the lead, but able to attack when it matters with what he had saved.
But to save resources, there must be such. Current tyres do not have, they start to degrade from the first lap on. No presence of an even short period of constant performance, as it should be in my understanding. Engines are artificially limited, you can't spend more even if you wish. DRS as artificial as it is, only makes the cars hit the rev limiter earlier. If you put longer high gear, you lose overall lap time. Same with KERS, a bit better acceleration, but no actual sufficient speed differential.

Edited by sharo, 22 April 2012 - 21:52.


#270 wepmob2000

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:51

Its not a point about equipment, its about the incessant desire/need, to provide a spectacle/entertainment. Take swimming for example. There are only a handful of genuinely exciting races. The rest are not ultras close action replay events. Most of them are dull and boring. Most relays are dull, with one team way ahead and a battle for the minor places. Not everything can be entertaining. In this pursuit to spice up F1, soon this level of overtakes won't be enough and they'll introduce another rule/gimmick to spice up the show. I've stayed faithful to F1, because it is real. Yes most races are boring, but that's the price you pay and that is why the memorable races, are memorable. 2006 to 2010 were good years IMO


I agree - but only to a point. Obviously its undesireable for every race to be like, say, China 2011, where there was non-stop action throughout- for the simple reason that if thats the norm, then people will want more so we'll end up with an upward spiral of artificiality. However we also don't want 17 Valencia style races a year, even the most die-hard fan would soon turn off.

The problem with F1 is that much of the spectacle of past-years has disappeared....

-The cars are easy to drive, drivers make few mistakes

-The tracks are anonymous and bland

-There's no genuine need for pitstops

-No more engine blow-ups or mechanical problems

Some of these developments are for the sake of safety or economy, and so are to be applauded, but left to its own devices and without FIA initiatives F1 would be one tedious series of processions, and who in their right mind would want to watch that? I know I wouldn't, having seen quite enough of it in the years 2002-04. Whats the point of a 'pure' F1 costing billions of dollars a year if its so tedious no-one wants to watch it. To my mind, having divested itself of much that once made it interesting (and led to unpredictable races) F1 needs to takes measures to improve the show, its always been about entertainment to a large degree, thats never changed.

Edited by wepmob2000, 22 April 2012 - 21:53.


#271 dhill39

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:56

This is not news,Mark Webber said the same thing in winter testing when Pirelli came back,that he wasn't pushing a 100%.That's the way the tires are now.Too bad i guess,but we fans would be complaining about something.

#272 Darth Sidious

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:58

Never been happier to miss a race than today. Confirming several things for me that have caused my interest to wain over the weeks. Even Schumacher and Rosberg are confirming my doubts.

F1 isn't motorsport, it's a show. A show designed for those who's interest in motorsport is relatively low. They want to sit down on Sunday, and watch a show and go down the pub talking same old bollocks. I like motorsport. I don't like F1 and being treated like an idiot. :)

That's a relief. I hope you all enjoy the rest of the season.


:up:

Spot on. They've taken the sport out of the show and all that remains is show. I never minded the occasional processional race. That's what made the great races so much more special. I used to enjoy watching the race unfold with live timing on the laptop beside me. Now its just a blur and the guy who makes it to turn one first wins because he suffers less wake degradation than anybody else.

The joy of watching a race and a strategy unfold, like when Lewis was three stopping and Massa two stopping in Turkey in 2008, has gone, now it's just a blur of DRS and pit stop replays. F1 for the Playstation generation is leaving me cold. I enjoyed Goodyear slicks, proper circuits, gravel traps and refuelling much more than endless repeats of easy passes.

But then, I am a cantankerous old b*st*rd at the best of times.

Edited by Darth Sidious, 22 April 2012 - 21:59.


#273 spacekid

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:08

:up:

Spot on. They've taken the sport out of the show and all that remains is show. I never minded the occasional processional race. That's what made the great races so much more special. I used to enjoy watching the race unfold with live timing on the laptop beside me. Now its just a blur and the guy who makes it to turn one first wins because he suffers less wake degradation than anybody else.

The joy of watching a race and a strategy unfold, like when Lewis was three stopping and Massa two stopping in Turkey in 2008, has gone, now it's just a blur of DRS and pit stop replays. F1 for the Playstation generation is leaving me cold. I enjoyed Goodyear slicks, proper circuits, gravel traps and refuelling much more than endless repeats of easy passes.

But then, I am a cantankerous old b*st*rd at the best of times.


:up: Agree on every point.

There's a difference between tyres that can last longer from being well driven on while still giving up speed, to tyres that fall off a cliff in an unaccesptably short number of laps if pushed at all.

#274 Goron3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:11

BS. Then having to turn in a curve and not having straights is cruising around, so in the past preserving brakes, engines, gearbox was cruising around... You may not like that tires are part of the game but the arguments here are inane.


No no, I DO like that tyres are now part of the equation, they should always be a part of the racing. However, instead of pushing 100% for the first half of the stint and then having the tyres fall apart (we used to get that during the tyre war between BS and Michelin), the drivers are never fully pushing at 100%. This has been mentioned by several drivers and team principles who have said even in qualifying the tyres can't be worn out too much.

Managing tyres should always be a part of the equation, undoubtedly. But you should be able to push hard if you want to. It was done well during the 80's (just an example) where you could push but towards the end of a stint you might suffer and you'd have to hope the gap you built up earlier was sufficient). Prost got numerous wins like this.

Edit. I've got to say, looking back at it, Turkey 2010 was probably one of the greatest races I've seen in recent years. You had 4 drivers separated by 2 seconds for about 20 laps, all on the absolutely limit and none of them were tyre limited at all. You had Lewis who was much slower through the first 2 sectors pushing like mad just to get close enough. Amazing.

Edited by Goron3, 22 April 2012 - 22:15.


#275 Juggles

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:18

A Pirelli F1 race is a bit like a well made-up transvestite. She looks great on the outside but there's more to her than meets the eye.

#276 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:21

We don't.

Are we really saying that Pirelli can't make tyres that have drivers pushing until they're worn out? If anyone wants to conserve tyres, they still can if their style and car make it work. Failing that, others can go agressive and use them up.

I'd like to see Sky or BBC run a quick poll of the drivers asking when they have pushed even 90% in a race. Or ask the teams if a driver went for a flat out stint, how long would the tyres last and would it be counter productive?

Let's see where the truth really lies and then we can have an informed opinion.


So, all that overtaking. That mindblowing number of charges against one another. How do you explain that? And why didnt we have that in the Bridgestone era, when, for instance, a race at Barcelona was a snoozefest?

Yep i prefer to see a drivers do 20 qualfying laps in a race and push his car to the limit. Will we ever see that again in current f1 i doubt it.

Are these Tyres really all the same as each other. If you look at Button he could use the same type of tyres twice in a race, but claim the car is near undriveable.

Still seems like a lottery to me.


All that 20 lap qualifying lap stint is just romanticised stuff. Schumacher did it once, and Alonso had a few of those races last year. In general a race is run much more conservative than you make it out to be.

Maybe Pirelli can do something about the working window of temps, make that wider. But the durability is fine for me, and produces great races with lots of overtaking and has big differences in people driving on worn tyres vs new.

Edited by TheBunk, 22 April 2012 - 22:30.


#277 joshb

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:27

The only answer is refuelling and more durable tires. This will allow for the drivers to push far harder during stints, without being able to simply slaps on one set of boots for pretty much the entire race.

Current F1 is so depressing, the best drivers are not being rewarded!

Addition: 2009 regs in my opinion were the best for some time.


look at the top of the standings. I disagree!

#278 Nycco

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:27

You spend millions of dollars in complex simulations, in high-tech materials, in wind tunnels, in hiring the best drivers in the world and then you're given 4 tyres that you put on the car and the whole thing becomes a lottery depending on weather or asphalt composition. Where is the point ? This not F1. I want to see drivers and machines pushing to the limit for 63 laps, not cruising around like they're carrying eggs in their cockpit and praying to win at the Pirelli lottery.

#279 SuperSoft

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:35

BUt the durability is fine for me, and produces great races with lots of overtaking and has big diffreences in people driving on worn tyres vs new.


It has nothing to do with the durability. You can have tyres that fall apart after 10 races and still allow for racing in between the pitstops.

If you, or anyone else here, honestly believe you saw a car race today then I suggest you sit down and watch the race again. Nobody was racing, it just looks like they were, you have been fooled by the great Bernie show.

Every single car was cruising around the track preserving tyres, not driving to the cars or the drivers full potential, not bothering to chase the guy in front, even if he is only 2 seconds ahead, because chasing the guy in front means you ruin your tyres.

Honestly, I believe you can't see it yet, but the emperors clothes are coming off and I can see his winky.

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#280 TheBunk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:36

It has nothing to do with the durability. You can have tyres that fall apart after 10 races and still allow for racing in between the pitstops.

If you, or anyone else here, honestly believe you saw a car race today then I suggest you sit down and watch the race again. Nobody was racing, it just looks like they were, you have been fooled by the great Bernie show.

Every single car was cruising around the track preserving tyres, not driving to the cars or the drivers full potential, not bothering to chase the guy in front, even if he is only 2 seconds ahead, because chasing the guy in front means you ruin your tyres.

Honestly, I believe you can't see it yet, but the emperors clothes are coming off and I can see his winky.


So, how come there was so much overtaking whilst they were cruising?

#281 Fastcake

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:38

I can't help but feel that something is wrong with the tyres this year, compared to last years offering. Now, I have been a fan of Pirelli's short-lasting tyres, I believe the racing has been better and even if some drivers have adapted better than others, that's just life ultimately. But this year they seem to be, well random, and from race to race so far there's been different front-runners each time out.

Let's look at Vettel. In Australia he was able to match the McLarens, then come Malaysia absolutely nowhere. China, in the points but fading at the end, and this week he's able to dominate and win like last year. I can't believe that's all down to track specifics and Red Bull's car development - not in a week at least, so all I can think is that this years tyres are absurdly difficult to work with.

I don't believe the degradation is an issue at all, although the amount of marbles seems to be one, but the problem lies at operating temperatures and how some cars work one week but not the next.

#282 swiniodzik

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:40

Never been happier to miss a race than today. Confirming several things for me that have caused my interest to wain over the weeks. Even Schumacher and Rosberg are confirming my doubts.

F1 isn't motorsport, it's a show. A show designed for those whose interest in motorsport is relatively low. They want to sit down on Sunday, and watch a show and go down the pub talking same old bollocks. "hey, did you see the racing today, AMAZING". no it's not amazing, drs is bollocks, it's not amazing!

I don't like F1 and being treated like a gullible idiot. We all know this is a complete mess. I like motorsport, F1 for me is a motorshow, not a motorsport

That's a relief. I hope you all enjoy the rest of the season. You won't miss me but ciao


Aren't we getting a little bit over-melodramatic? As somebody said, nobody wants a season consisting of twenty crazy races like China '11, but also who wants twenty processions like Bahrain '10?

A sport has to entertain, otherwise it won't be a sport anymore. Being too much of an artificial show - as some of you feel is the case today and complain about - is as bad as there being no or just little entertainment value in the sport. It's all about finding a good balance where there's just about enough entertainment in place to keep the sport interesting, but not too much to make it look articifial. It's an extremely hard task that search for an optimal scenario as can be seen, and that scenario in itself will always be subjective.

#283 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:44

I can't help but feel that something is wrong with the tyres this year, compared to last years offering. Now, I have been a fan of Pirelli's short-lasting tyres, I believe the racing has been better and even if some drivers have adapted better than others, that's just life ultimately. But this year they seem to be, well random, and from race to race so far there's been different front-runners each time out.

Let's look at Vettel. In Australia he was able to match the McLarens, then come Malaysia absolutely nowhere. China, in the points but fading at the end, and this week he's able to dominate and win like last year. I can't believe that's all down to track specifics and Red Bull's car development - not in a week at least, so all I can think is that this years tyres are absurdly difficult to work with.

I don't believe the degradation is an issue at all, although the amount of marbles seems to be one, but the problem lies at operating temperatures and how some cars work one week but not the next.



Your post. is exactly what my problem is with the current tyres. How the hell are you suposed to work on your tyre issues as team if its different every race. Sometimes its not even a week a part the tyres can change it can be as close a a stint in the same race. Pot luck if your tyres work on race day.

Edited by Massa_f1, 22 April 2012 - 22:49.


#284 SuperSoft

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:45

So, how come there was so much overtaking whilst they were cruising?


Because there is a big button on the steering wheel with "overtake" written on it.

Look at Positions 2 thru 10 in the final stint of the race, lots of cars very close together, just a few second apart. I was quite excited for a brilliant final stint - but absolutely nothing happen - nothing!

It was a procession, and only through trickery did it appear to look like a race.

Hamilton followed Alonso, 2 secs behind for 20 laps. Alonso followed Button. Paul De Resta was just out for gentle stroll and still nobody could tackle him.

Kimi was unable to push to try and take the lead.

Honestly, what did you see?

#285 chhatra

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:06


BS. Then having to turn in a curve and not having straights is cruising around, so in the past preserving brakes, engines, gearbox was cruising around... You may not like that tires are part of the game but the arguments here are inane.


Tires have always been a PART of the game, I believe the issue now is tires ARE the game. Manufacturers, engines, aero, drivers are all irrelavent if they can't use the tires.

#286 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:09

Tires have always been a PART of the game, I believe the issue now is tires ARE the game. Manufacturers, engines, aero, drivers are all irrelavent if they can't use the tires.

BINGO!

you strive to build a car 0.2 sec faster because of the FW, you manage to get 0.1 more from the engine and you end up with everybody going 4sec a lap slower to conserve the tyres.

#287 fieraku

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:16

From my memoirs.Not necessary to rewrite the same thoughts.

Yes I know F1 will soon become everyone single file,only pass with DRS,and may the best tires win. Hard Battling/Defending/Overtaking is detrimental to the tires so it will become a thing of the past and we'll call 2007-2008 "The good old days"

Pirelli don't reward sh**,how can anything be a reward when it's killing everything this sport stood for SPEED,Hard Racing/Defending/Overtaking/Strategy. Just to spice up the SHOW with meaningless passes.Please save me the lectures about Pirellis,I was a JPM fan and remember him going 370+ at Monza these tires would melt at those speeds.


Racecraft in the past meant you had to overtake for wins and thus for WDC's,it meant that a FAST driver Schu/Kimi/JPM/Ham/Alo could just drive a whole stint balls out to make up time to a slower driver in front without worrying about tires,where as now you can wait for others coming to you. That ain't racecraft that's just waiting around,but Pirelli PR are selling it as "excitement" and people buy it.Managing tires has NEVER been this extent no matter how many times you repeat it because tires have NEVER been this sh**. We've had the odd races in the past where tires played a part,but they were always produced to be nothing short of the best.



#288 30ft penguin

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:18

I do not like these tires. What is the point of F1 being the "pinnacle of racing", with famous car designers inventing new awesome ways of making the cars faster, when you then have these silly tires making everybody drive only at 80% max. They might as well save everybody the trouble and hand out standard cars. I miss stuff like Hungary 1998, with a driver going for a stint of all-out qualifying pace to make some strategy work. You could not do that today, because the tires would be gone after 3 laps or so.

Oh, and bring back refuelling.




#289 scheivlak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:24

Tires have always been a PART of the game, I believe the issue now is tires ARE the game. Manufacturers, engines, aero, drivers are all irrelavent if they can't use the tires.

Completely irrelevant? Aren't you a bit of a drama queen :D

Just a little story.
I remember very well how the French magazine L'Automobile interviewed all the team bosses circa 1974 what they liked more: having a better driver than all the other teams, having a better engine, having a better chassis or having better tyres. All team bosses - Chapman, Tyrrell, you name 'em - choose having better tyres as their favorite option..
(After that, the most common sequence was chassis-engine-driver IIRC)

#290 chhatra

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:38

Completely irrelevant? Aren't you a bit of a drama queen :D

Just a little story.
I remember very well how the French magazine L'Automobile interviewed all the team bosses circa 1974 what they liked more: having a better driver than all the other teams, having a better engine, having a better chassis or having better tyres. All team bosses - Chapman, Tyrrell, you name 'em - choose having better tyres as their favorite option..
(After that, the most common sequence was chassis-engine-driver IIRC)


Dude, you missed my point. Of course better tires would be preferential as ultimately they make contact with the ground. These tires are not better they are designed to go hard for a few laps and then degrade. I've only been watching F1 since 02 but I'm pretty damn sure none the team bosses you mentioned or drivers in that era would enjoy the racing we have today.

#291 scheivlak

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 23:48

Dude, you missed my point. Of course better tires would be preferential as ultimately they make contact with the ground. These tires are not better they are designed to go hard for a few laps and then degrade. I've only been watching F1 since 02 but I'm pretty damn sure none the team bosses you mentioned or drivers in that era would enjoy the racing we have today.

Well, Jackie Stewart felt pretty good about today :D

#292 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:04

Completely irrelevant? Aren't you a bit of a drama queen :D

Just a little story.
I remember very well how the French magazine L'Automobile interviewed all the team bosses circa 1974 what they liked more: having a better driver than all the other teams, having a better engine, having a better chassis or having better tyres. All team bosses - Chapman, Tyrrell, you name 'em - choose having better tyres as their favorite option..
(After that, the most common sequence was chassis-engine-driver IIRC)


And?

If you think you're educating us plebs that tyres have always been a critical performance differentiator and that this debunks what this thread is about, you're well off the mark.

Pirelli have designed rubber that simply degrades unavoidably, it doesn't chemically bond with the track in the way that most tyres would hence resulting in sackfuls of discarded rubber at the side of the track which would normally be woven into it. For this reason, the tyres must be driven on slowly to get the most distance out of them - unlike before when one could drive faster and the tyre would respond by gripping more with the track, the 'hysteresis'.

On Pirellis if you drive harder the tyres simply wear harder. Hence Schumacher's remarks about cruising around as if under a safety car, it's all they can do. The driver cannot make the difference any more, other than in simply treating the tyres nicely and measuring out their meagre and prescribed amount of grip over the stint. Vettel didn't destroy Webber today because he was 26 odd seconds faster in the traditional sense, he was just kinder to his tyres than Webber who is and always has been harder on them.

#293 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:18

Both Rosberg and Schumacher were interviewed by the german TV about the tyres after the Bahrain GP and Schumacher was not happy, he was very frustrated. He said it's not fun to drive with tyres like this and Lauda said he understands him because it's not fun for any driver to drive slow just because of the tyres.

Rosberg also said that it's simply not possible to drive on the limit at any time, they have to nurse the tyres since the start of the race. He said F1 it's a complete different sport this days.

I post this because some people are still saying that drivers are still pushing 100% until the tyres don't start to wear off but well now it's confirmed by Schumacher and Rosberg that they don't drive on limit at any time of the race, sometimes they drive only at 60-70%

I can'T believe Schumacher! Well, actually I can, nothing surprises me from him.

So what is Schimacher saying? Does he really believe that Fangio, Moss, Prost, Stewart, Senna, Mansell, Clark just drove in the limit all the time? Equipment preservation has always been part of this sport! Schumacher should be ashamed of himself! It's surprising to me because he actually drove during the end of that era before the stupid refueling came, and refueling fitted him like a glove because he could just go flat out between stints. formula one was never about putting in 60 qualifying laps in a race until the refueling came and Schumacher turned that into an art form. I'm sure he likes it, but that's never been supposed to be Formula 1

Edited by Birelman, 23 April 2012 - 00:20.


#294 sharo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:22

Aren't you missing the small fact that this man is already 20 years in F1 and started with a manual change gearbox car? Who, except him, from the current active drivers knows better?


#295 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:32

Well they weren't complaining last week, just crybabys.


Interesting, isn't it?


#296 Myrvold

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:32

So, what do we want? Full out driving, all the time. Little, to none overtaking. Or?

#297 SeanValen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:33

I can'T believe Schumacher! Well, actually I can, nothing surprises me from him.

So what is Schimacher saying? Does he really believe that Fangio, Moss, Prost, Stewart, Senna, Mansell, Clark just drove in the limit all the time? Equipment preservation has always been part of this sport! Schumacher should be ashamed of himself! It's surprising to me because he actually drove during the end of that era before the stupid refueling came, and refueling fitted him like a glove because he could just go flat out between stints. formula one was never about putting in 60 qualifying laps in a race until the refueling came and Schumacher turned that into an art form. I'm sure he likes it, but that's never been supposed to be Formula 1



Equipment preservation is one thing, but WERE TALKING ABOUT THE START OF RACES, EVEN BEFORE TYRES ARE MEANT TO GO OUT, THAT DRIVERS SHOULD BE ATTACKING, NOT WORRYING ABOUT OPENING A CUT ON THEIR HANDS, AS THAT'S WHAT THESE TYRES FEEL LIKE, THE DAYS OF QUALIFYING ENGINES-QUALIFYING MEANT SOMETHING, THE FASTEST ON SATURDAY, NOW IT'S FAST SATURDAY-BUT HOW'S YOUR SET UP FOR THE RACE? it's linked with the race.

But if Senna is watching me from the heavens, there's no way he's going to enjoy qualifying, because qualifying is linked to the race through a set up that cannot be changed after qualifying, it's the element of lottery, of having to cross your fingers over night, hoping temperatures/conditions don't change from saturday, BUT THEY DO, BUT THEY DO! And we used to have a session callled Sunday warm up, great for fans around the track, great for us, great for drivers setting up their car for the conditons, and I definately think these tyres need that session and parm ferme rules eased.

The pirelli tyres require too much work and the FIA don't allow it, they want lottery on Sunday it still seems, or just haven't got around to talking about Sunday warm up again.
Schumacher is right, Rosberg as well, what's the point of teams working hard then tyres -a element which is so important having a big influence.

Maybe there should be no rubber, teams make rubberless wheels, keep it inhouse, the future, save rubber!

If teams could make their own rubber it would help, but this cost saving era I understand, but it's not what fans want to hear about, f1 for me is all out attack and hold nothing back.





(superpalmen @ Apr 22 2012, 16:36) *
Well they weren't complaining last week, just crybabys.



China-if no teams celebrates a win that is 3 years in the making for current squad, but 50 years in the making for the mercedes brand, then it would seem odd. They deserved a time out to enjoy other things in life, everyone does, it's like starting a arguement on your birthday, it's not the time for it.

They knew that win was just a apart of a bigger puzzle of the season, you can't just look at one race, but look at others, the season is big, anyone who judges rules from one race, or tyres from just one race would be foolish.
Mclaren had a odd race as well.


Edited by SeanValen, 23 April 2012 - 00:41.


#298 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:34

Well, Jackie Stewart felt pretty good about today :D


Only till the Lotuses suffer from the tires like Schu did today....then Sir Jackie will do a Schu! :lol:





#299 RealRacing

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:35

Let's start a petition...

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#300 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:36

I can'T believe Schumacher! Well, actually I can, nothing surprises me from him.

So what is Schimacher saying? Does he really believe that Fangio, Moss, Prost, Stewart, Senna, Mansell, Clark just drove in the limit all the time? Equipment preservation has always been part of this sport! Schumacher should be ashamed of himself! It's surprising to me because he actually drove during the end of that era before the stupid refueling came, and refueling fitted him like a glove because he could just go flat out between stints. formula one was never about putting in 60 qualifying laps in a race until the refueling came and Schumacher turned that into an art form. I'm sure he likes it, but that's never been supposed to be Formula 1


Christ, EVERYONE knows F1 was never flat out start to finish, but it was also never like this i.e 100% tyre nursing lights to flag.

Personally, I'm still dumbfounded that anyone can defend this formula given how a 7x world champ has just come out and told the world that they're all coasting around to a target delta lap time. Apparently this fundamental problem doesn't matter for some because we're seeing lots of cars driving closely to each other, and that's all that matters.