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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#301 Octavian

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:44

Christ, EVERYONE knows F1 was never flat out start to finish, but it was also never like this i.e 100% tyre nursing lights to flag.

Personally, I'm still dumbfounded that anyone can defend this formula given how a 7x world champ has just come out and told the world that they're all coasting around to a target delta lap time. Apparently this fundamental problem doesn't matter for some because we're seeing lots of cars driving closely to each other, and that's all that matters.


It's mickey mouse F1. It's dumbing F1 down for the masses. What we've ended up with is a lottery as opposed to the chess game of strategy we've had in the past.
Add KERS and DRS in to the mix and we have a seriously dumbed down formula.

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#302 Bartel

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:53

Give us hard boring tyres that don't ware out until they have actually been punished not nursed!

#303 MidKnight

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:54

It's the same for everyone...yes you can't start 20th and win...duh..

#304 pingu666

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:54

when I did iracing you could have races like we do now, with cars below the limit that would look good, the limit with these tryes would be going as fast as you safely can without using up the tyre, hence the delta time driving. Its more going through and making laps than trying to wring everything out of the car, on every corner.

imo the midfield battles are better, while battles for the lead are worse, that's just a gut feeling tho
how many of the races have been won by the guy leading the first lap?

#305 SeanValen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:55

Christ, EVERYONE knows F1 was never flat out start to finish, but it was also never like this i.e 100% tyre nursing lights to flag.

Personally, I'm still dumbfounded that anyone can defend this formula given how a 7x world champ has just come out and told the world that they're all coasting around to a target delta lap time. Apparently this fundamental problem doesn't matter for some because we're seeing lots of cars driving closely to each other, and that's all that matters.



:up:
I don't think I've seen Schumacher more potent with his views. Pirelli responded regarding how MS liked the tyres in testing, but Pirelli must of known it wouldn't be until the season's races got underway, would they see these tyres in operation from all teams, and that is MS's timing now.

Brundle was talking about tyres as well today,.


I just hope we don't have this season like 2003, which I enjoyed, but it had some silly rules, like championship leader going out first to track sweep in 1st quali of 2 sessions, I mean that rule was specifically created to create interest by tripping up the main contenders. Now we have too sensitive tyres tripping up drivers/teams on Sunday as iif russian roulete is beeing played out, it's just a lottery it seems.

Qualifying will look like things are ok, because teams are close, drivers are close, they can work on set ups all day, because your allowed to work on the car on Saturday, but not on Sunday ANYMORE, THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM, :rolleyes: I always disliked this rule, it's not right that you need to prepare the car on Saturday for Sunday without actually knowing what the temperatures and conditions will be like, this Bahrain race was much cooler then expected, yet you cannot change YOUR BLOODY SET UP ON RACE DAY.

So my beef is with FIA for not allowing teams to work on cars on Suinday, and Pierlli should understand teams need a easier tyre to work with given these FIA rules on Sunday, they both need to talk, as one as gotta own up and help these teams dial in their cars more easlily and correctly/with the purity of The sport before 2003 rule changes.

SUNDAY WARM UP-ASHES TO ASHES, DUST TO DUST, RUBBER TO RUBBER :smoking:





#306 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:00

Equipment preservation is one thing, but WERE TALKING ABOUT THE START OF RACES, EVEN BEFORE TYRES ARE MEANT TO GO OUT, THAT DRIVERS SHOULD BE ATTACKING, NOT WORRYING ABOUT OPENING A CUT ON THEIR HANDS, AS THAT'S WHAT THESE TYRES FEEL LIKE, THE DAYS OF QUALIFYING ENGINES-QUALIFYING MEANT SOMETHING, THE FASTEST ON SATURDAY, NOW IT'S FAST SATURDAY-BUT HOW'S YOUR SET UP FOR THE RACE? it's linked with the race.

But if Senna is watching me from the heavens, there's no way he's going to enjoy qualifying, because qualifying is linked to the race through a set up that cannot be changed after qualifying, it's the element of lottery, of having to cross your fingers over night, hoping temperatures/conditions don't change from saturday, BUT THEY DO, BUT THEY DO! And we used to have a session callled Sunday warm up, great for fans around the track, great for us, great for drivers setting up their car for the conditons, and I definately think these tyres need that session and parm ferme rules eased.

The pirelli tyres require too much work and the FIA don't allow it, they want lottery on Sunday it still seems, or just haven't got around to talking about Sunday warm up again.
Schumacher is right, Rosberg as well, what's the point of teams working hard then tyres -a element which is so important having a big influence.

Maybe there should be no rubber, teams make rubberless wheels, keep it inhouse, the future, save rubber!

If teams could make their own rubber it would help, but this cost saving era I understand, but it's not what fans want to hear about, f1 for me is all out attack and hold nothing back.





(superpalmen @ Apr 22 2012, 16:36) *
Well they weren't complaining last week, just crybabys.



China-if no teams celebrates a win that is 3 years in the making for current squad, but 50 years in the making for the mercedes brand, then it would seem odd. They deserved a time out to enjoy other things in life, everyone does, it's like starting a arguement on your birthday, it's not the time for it.

They knew that win was just a apart of a bigger puzzle of the season, you can't just look at one race, but look at others, the season is big, anyone who judges rules from one race, or tyres from just one race would be foolish.
Mclaren had a odd race as well.

I'm also not a fan of the knock out qualifying with car impounds on Parc Ferme. I would dearly love it if they could change their setups between Q and race, as should be, and as it is in any other form of motorsport, impound is stupid! However, in the modern era, cost savings is important, Back in the day they had q tires, q engines, q floors, q brakes, pretty much a whole differnt car, so, it was unsustainable, it's too bad the impound was their only solution to it. But, even back then they had a limited number of q tires, and also limited for the race, they still had to race their chosen compound for q, so, yea, that's changed a bit, but not as much as some try to make it out to be. And NO, Formula one is not all about attack and gong balls out.



#307 SeanValen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:10

It's the same for everyone...yes you can't start 20th and win...duh..


Yes it's the same for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's correct in this case.

You want teams working on set up overnight and into the race with these tyres, but they can't.

Basically if the race took place on Saturday it would be better, because the teams are working with the tyres all through the day, changing set up.

You cannot touch the cars for set up changes for track conditions on Sundays, so the racing YOUR ARE GETTING, IS DRIVERS MAKING GUESSES FOR WHAT WILL WORK ON SUNDAY, THIS CREATES A ELEMENT OF SET UP LOTTERY, Which is why teams can suddenly not compete for wins on Sunday while previous weeks they were, doesn't that sound odd?

THE MORE LOTTERY, THE WORSER THE PURITY OF RACING.

And saying Saturday is better doesn't mean I'm giving the tyres a thumbs up, it just means teams understand it more when they can change car set up, but not on Sunday.

Michellin tyres were quick from the go and faded out naturally, Bridgestone overall faded out better.

It's not that they are fading eventually, it's how they are when they meant to be fresh to attack! These Pirelli tyres are not fresh in the sense to attack, THEY ARE WEAK, AND IN THIS WORLD OF FORMULA ONE, ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE! AND THAT INCLUDES TYRES because it's like a broken bone that isn't going to repair, so you don't get out of bed quick lol NURSING TYRES from the beginning.

TYRES ARE TOO WEAK FOR MAXIMUM ATTACK FROM THE START, I THINK THIS SENSTENCE MAKES PERFECT SENSE. :smoking:



:up:

#308 SeanValen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:14

. And NO, Formula one is not all about attack and gong balls out.



FORMULA ONE FOR ME IS GOING ALL OUT BALLS OUT and during the latter stages of the race, the end of a tyres life, then it's time for preservation and tactics, BUT NOT AT THE START AS A NURSE IN A F1 CAR, f1 drivers love speed, they are nutters who drive fast, WITH THIS TYRES THEY CANNOT WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT A HUGE DROP OFF, sorry it's too much this time.

I think Lewis Hamilton's career also is taking a back seat because of these tyres, the excitement of his driving is gone, the man is accepting 3rd place finishes and points, Jenson Button is probabley the smoohest of them all and was born for tyres that you cannot push too hard, yet still his mclaren was lacking speed this race, if he can't make the tyres work from race to race, then it's all doomed.



:smoking:

Edited by SeanValen, 23 April 2012 - 01:19.


#309 baddog

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:22

And NO, Formula one is not all about attack and gong balls out.

No but it is not odd to suggest it should have a significant element of that.. IF drivers are being told to manage their pace significantly from lap one of the race, and even going slower than they could in qualy to save tyres, then it is really not a good look at all.

#310 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:26

So what is Schimacher saying? Does he really believe that Fangio, Moss, Prost, Stewart, Senna, Mansell, Clark just drove in the limit all the time? Equipment preservation has always been part of this sport!


Clearly you misunderstand the current issues. There is no comparison between this farcical lottery and preserving an engine that is overheating.

Don't you understand what is happening? We have every single driver on the track racing to a computer readout that is telling them how fast they can go, any faster and they risk destroying the tyre too early.

So we have a farcical situation where a driver is in 4th, 3rd place is only 4secs ahead and yet he cannot challenge for 3rd because the computer is telling him to not lap at anymore than 1:37.8, so he just sits there instead and settles for 4th place.

On top of that nobody has any idea how the tyres will effect them until the race begins, because it appears a slight change in temperature and everything they learned in practise goes out the window.

So what we have left is a lottery where any team can do well depending on factors outside their control and we have the worlds best drivers unable to make a difference because they are not able to drive the car to the limit.

If you are honestly defending this situation then I wonder whether you really like motorsports that much at all, because this is not motorsports. They might as well just all race each other on Playstation as far as I am concerned, at least it would be real racing.

Edited by SuperSoft, 23 April 2012 - 01:27.


#311 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:27

FORMULA ONE FOR ME IS GOING ALL OUT BALLS OUT and during the latter stages of the race, the end of a tyres live, then it's time for preservation and tactics, BUT NOT AT THE START AS A NURSE IN A F1 CAR, f1 drivers love speed, they are nutters who drive fast, WITH THIS TYRES THEY CANNOT WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT A HUGE DROP OFF, sorry it's too much this time.

:smoking:

Hey! I can respect you having an opinion on what you think Formula 1 should be, but, all racing is about preservation, and it usually starts at the start of a race so that in the end you have more car left to goo fast than your rival, Prost was a master of this in the glory days, big part of the reason why he had so many fastest laps at the end of races. It's not exactly about pussy footing around either. Some drivers can go faster while preserving, others not so much. Schumacher was always kinda hard on his tires, he always admitted to this. I'm not surprised he's not happy with it, I never thought he would be, but to say that it sux cus they can't drive on the limit in the race as to suggest it was once that way, well, it's not comoletely accurate.

The only thing that I find wrong is that these tires are gimmicky, which they shouldn't be, but i'lltake this over the borefest of the refueling era many times over.

#312 Gemini

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:30

The only thing that I find wrong is that these tires are gimmicky, which they shouldn't be, but i'lltake this over the borefest of the refueling era many times over.


+1

#313 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:33

Clearly you misunderstand the current issues. There is no comparison between this farcical lottery and preserving an engine that is overheating.

Don't you understand what is happening? We have every single driver on the track racing to a computer readout that is telling them how fast they can go, any faster and they risk destroying the tyre too early.

So we have a farcical situation where a driver is in 4th, 3rd place is only 4secs ahead and yet he cannot challenge for 3rd because the computer is telling him to not lap at anymore than 1:37.8, so he just sits there instead and settles for 4th place.

On top of that nobody has any idea how the tyres will effect them until the race begins, because it appears a slight change in temperature and everything they learned in practise goes out the window.

So what we have left is a lottery where any team can do well depending on factors outside their control and we have the worlds best drivers unable to make a difference because they are not able to drive the car to the limit.

If you are honestly defending this situation then I wonder whether you really like motorsports that much at all, because this is not motorsports. They might as well just all race each other on Playstation as far as I am concerned, at least it would be real racing.

Well, if they had these computers in Senna's time they would also be told their delta time just like now, even back then you could get a bad set of tires and lose tons of time with it, also during the refueling era they were being told how fast they had to go and they were racing the clock most of the time, not each other. I'll say it again, the only problem right now is that the tires are gimmicky, but drivers shouldn't complaint that they have to nurse the material, it's done in all forms of motorsport, it's nothing new, and not particular to Formula 1

#314 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:35

Hey! I can respect you having an opinion on what you think Formula 1 should be, but, all racing is about preservation, and it usually starts at the start of a race so that in the end you have more car left to goo fast than your rival, Prost was a master of this in the glory days, big part of the reason why he had so many fastest laps at the end of races.


And this just proves you don't actually understand what is going on here and you clearly do not understand Rosberg and Schumacher's complaints.

It is not about preservation. It is about setting lap times according to the computer readout that tells them how to make the tyres last 10 laps. There is no performance saved for later, there is no ability to have a fast lap to overtake someone, you go to fast, or get stuck in dirty air then you ruin your tyres completely.

Honestly, you need to go back and read what the drivers are complaining about. Again, this has nothing to do with preservation.

#315 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:42

lso during the refueling era they were being told how fast they had to go and they were racing the clock most of the time, not each other.


This is sort of true. But they were only racing the clock because refueling and better tyres meant that there was often multiple strategies going on, but at the end of the day the aim was always to get track position come the last stint and then race to the line.

Today there is no racing, if you are in dirty air you are screwed unless you get lucky enough to be able to pass under DRS.

Look at Lewis and Alonso in the last stint today, Lewis just wouldn't go near him and yet for something like 15 laps he was only 2 seconds behind him - in a faster car!!

Today's racing is still a procession, it only looks like it isn't because they are closer together. To my mind it is worse than a procession because at least in the 90's it may have been boring, but the car in front was usually the best car/driver package.

Next race we might see the HRT's fill the podium if they hit the jackpot on the tyre lottery - and this was never what Formula 1 was about. F1 was always about technical achievement and driver ability, it is not this season.

Edited by SuperSoft, 23 April 2012 - 01:44.


#316 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:51

I can'T believe Schumacher! Well, actually I can, nothing surprises me from him.

So what is Schimacher saying? Does he really believe that Fangio, Moss, Prost, Stewart, Senna, Mansell, Clark just drove in the limit all the time? Equipment preservation has always been part of this sport! Schumacher should be ashamed of himself! It's surprising to me because he actually drove during the end of that era before the stupid refueling came, and refueling fitted him like a glove because he could just go flat out between stints. formula one was never about putting in 60 qualifying laps in a race until the refueling came and Schumacher turned that into an art form. I'm sure he likes it, but that's never been supposed to be Formula 1



I think that Schumacher is really frustrated seeing his teammate win a race and that followed up by Raikkonen fighting for a win and landing a podium after only 4 races into his return.

Schu is hurting now but will feel better once he has a good race result.

#317 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:16

This is sort of true. But they were only racing the clock because refueling and better tyres meant that there was often multiple strategies going on, but at the end of the day the aim was always to get track position come the last stint and then race to the line.

Today there is no racing, if you are in dirty air you are screwed unless you get lucky enough to be able to pass under DRS.

Look at Lewis and Alonso in the last stint today, Lewis just wouldn't go near him and yet for something like 15 laps he was only 2 seconds behind him - in a faster car!!

Today's racing is still a procession, it only looks like it isn't because they are closer together. To my mind it is worse than a procession because at least in the 90's it may have been boring, but the car in front was usually the best car/driver package.

Next race we might see the HRT's fill the podium if they hit the jackpot on the tyre lottery - and this was never what Formula 1 was about. F1 was always about technical achievement and driver ability, it is not this season.

Man, you can't come into a Formula 1 conversation and say 90ies as if that is some sort of standard for racing. I'm not saying in any way that today's Formula 1 I great and everything in it is fine and dandy, try t read my posts with objectivity instead of trying to choose your next reply to me. Listen, today's tires are gimmicky, we all know that, and it shouldn't be that way, DRS is also gimmicky, the cars look stupid, and they race in the dessert! None of that spells great Formula 1. I will still take this over the refueling borefest a million times if that's the alternatives.

The are other alternatives to make Formula 1 more pure as it should be, but that is not what I'm talking about, the nay thing I've talked about is that these drivers are complaining over an aspect of the sport which has always been there. Yes, they are being told by a computer what lap times they need to do to preserve to an educated guess which could still be wrong, the only difference ther to Formula 1 before refueling is that the driver had to make that educated guess on his own without a computer, some drivers can still go faster than others while using less of the tires than others. I'm not at all surprised Schimacher feels this way, he was never great at tire preservation the little bit of racing he did before refueling came. The guy in front iis usually the best car/driver package given the current rules today, same as with any other yearr in Formula 1.

#318 BigCHrome

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:10

I agree - but only to a point. Obviously its undesireable for every race to be like, say, China 2011, where there was non-stop action throughout- for the simple reason that if thats the norm, then people will want more so we'll end up with an upward spiral of artificiality. However we also don't want 17 Valencia style races a year, even the most die-hard fan would soon turn off.

The problem with F1 is that much of the spectacle of past-years has disappeared....

-The cars are easy to drive, drivers make few mistakes

-The tracks are anonymous and bland

-There's no genuine need for pitstops

-No more engine blow-ups or mechanical problems

Some of these developments are for the sake of safety or economy, and so are to be applauded, but left to its own devices and without FIA initiatives F1 would be one tedious series of processions, and who in their right mind would want to watch that? I know I wouldn't, having seen quite enough of it in the years 2002-04. Whats the point of a 'pure' F1 costing billions of dollars a year if its so tedious no-one wants to watch it. To my mind, having divested itself of much that once made it interesting (and led to unpredictable races) F1 needs to takes measures to improve the show, its always been about entertainment to a large degree, thats never changed.


The cars are easy to drive because you're only driving to a certain laptime, not pushing the car at all. That's what everyone has been saying.

#319 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:13

The cars are easy to drive because you're only driving to a certain laptime, not pushing the car at all. That's what everyone has been saying.

ThEy've been too easy to drive way before these tires came along.

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#320 fisssssi

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:13

They need to get rid of the lottery aspect, that much everyone seems to be agreeing on.

At the moment it's just not reliably possible to set your car up for Sunday, because the tyres have such a tiny operating window that it's only luck that determines whether your chosen setup overheats the tyres, fails to get them up to temperature, or whether its just right. Clearly Lotus had their setup just right this weekend, while Mclaren and Mercedes had it right last weekend.

If Sunday was a bit hotter or a bit colder, then we would have had a totally different race result. That's the area I have an issue with.

If the tyres degrade too fast, that's bad but it's not the biggest problem. If a driver cannot even setup their car for Sunday without having to take a gamble every weekend then we have a much bigger problem.



Having said all that, we are only 4 races into the season and I'm sure all the teams will improve. We saw how Webber in China last year woke everyone up to the strength of saving tyres, so much that that became a big part of the strategy for the rest of the season.

#321 Birelman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:42

They need to get rid of the lottery aspect, that much everyone seems to be agreeing on.

At the moment it's just not reliably possible to set your car up for Sunday, because the tyres have such a tiny operating window that it's only luck that determines whether your chosen setup overheats the tyres, fails to get them up to temperature, or whether its just right. Clearly Lotus had their setup just right this weekend, while Mclaren and Mercedes had it right last weekend.

If Sunday was a bit hotter or a bit colder, then we would have had a totally different race result. That's the area I have an issue with.

If the tyres degrade too fast, that's bad but it's not the biggest problem. If a driver cannot even setup their car for Sunday without having to take a gamble every weekend then we have a much bigger problem.



Having said all that, we are only 4 races into the season and I'm sure all the teams will improve. We saw how Webber in China last year woke everyone up to the strength of saving tyres, so much that that became a big part of the strategy for the rest of the season.

You, my friend, make perfect sense there.

#322 IceSkyrim

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:49

If Schumy likes to burn rubber at will, he can join Drag Racing or Drift  ;)

#323 ViMaMo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:21

Saving equipment was always a part of F1 because thats the best they could come up with. And the following season the equipment got better, so they could push bit harder. Thats been the law.

The main gripe of "lack of overtaking" was almost solved with KERS and then completely with the advent of DRS. Fans have been crying lack of overtaking for years, and it was solved. But this year its just 'what !?' . Yes there maybe boring races if we had Bridgestones instead of Pirellis with the fastest guy on Sunday gets to be the winner on Sunday by an easy margin. Right now the grid is so mixed, its not even a representative of their true potential, whereas they were much closer to their true potential without tyres like these. Thats whats missing in f1, with Parc Ferme rules, fastest guy on Saturday is actually not the fastest they can go. Its not a big ask to expect a qualifying setting. Now this.

This seems more like the weird weight penalty systems they seem to follow elsewhere in touring cars to make it entertaining. Why not use the weight penalty system too?

Edited by ViMaMo, 23 April 2012 - 04:22.


#324 wepmob2000

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:42

The cars are easy to drive because you're only driving to a certain laptime, not pushing the car at all. That's what everyone has been saying.


They've been too easy to drive for a long time now, the current tires have nothing to do with it. An F1 car should be overpowered in relation to the grip available and an important part of the drivers skillset is meaningless now. You should know somethings wrong when Eau Rouge is regarded as an easy corner........



#325 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:44

Bring back Bridgestone!

Mental.

F1 is too boring. "Make all the races like Canda! :cool: "

F1 is too random and unpredictable. "Bring back Bridgestone!"

Which is it!? :)

#326 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:49

This seems more like the weird weight penalty systems they seem to follow elsewhere in touring cars to make it entertaining.

Exactly. (not necessarily a bad thing, BTCC is chaos and very entertaining.)

But FOM is a commericial entity.

If Mercedes, Lotus, Ferrari, Red Bull, Sauber, Williams and McLaren all similar points it doesn't cost them anymore than one team winning everything. But it reduces likelihood of team's going bankrupt... which could potentially cause all sorts of problems for FOM. Maybe it is a final minor concession to "rotational"-style sporting administration (e.g. the Aussie Rules sytem where all clubs are meant to alternate between 1st and last place on a 18 year cycle (or between 4th and 12th on a 6-8 year cycle in reality), sharing success to all teams), something missing in F1 after all.

#327 wepmob2000

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:54

Mental.

F1 is too boring. "Make all the races like Canda! :cool: "

F1 is too random and unpredictable. "Bring back Bridgestone!"

Which is it!? :)


None of the above for me, I'm pretty happy with F1 as it is :D The rules are the same for everyone, the teams need to manage the situation better. Schumacher who didn't once moan when he enjoyed a massive tyre advantage over all other teams now hates having a car which abuses tyres in hot weather races..... hmmm :well: I'll fetch my violin.


Edited by wepmob2000, 23 April 2012 - 04:56.


#328 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:03

Nobody is talking about refuelling here, you got the wrong thread, this is just about the tyres. I don't want to see refuelling back.

The guy in front iis usually the best car/driver package given the current rules today, same as with any other yearr in Formula 1.


Sorry but this is wrong, look at the results of the last 4 races and tell me which team has the best car/driver package. The results alone tell us all we need to know about what effect the tyres are having on performance.

Your argument seems to be that the tyres are just something that teams need to work with and the best teams have figured out how to do it better, but this is clearly flawed because it changes from race to race. Last race the Mercedes were the team to beat, they took pole and won the race with the RBR left floundering. This week it was exactly the opposite.

That tells us that there is no skill in getting these tyres to work, some teams have not figured it out. All that is happening that depending on the track and the weather conditions come raceday the tyres might work for you or they might not. Why are we having drivers admitting to being surprised that they finished 2nd when it has been a dry race and very few retirements? Surprised? This is F1, nobody should be surprised by finding out they have a quick car come raceday.

I think you agree with most points, certainly your other posts seem to suggest that, so I don't really understand why you are still defending the tyres, especially when you admit they are a gimmick.

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's, back when they were nothing more than fag packets with engines. This is not some kind of romantic dreaming of the good old days though, I cannot remember ever a Formula One season where the tyres were the most important part of the package - it has never happened. Tyres should not be deciding the result of a race, they honestly shouldn't. Technical ability and driver skill should always decide the result of a race. Tyres should be managed and those who manage them better will take advantage, that is fair enough. But this is not about managing tyres at all, this is about the tyres deliberately slowing the cars down and stopping racing from happening.

I am firmly against a spec series, it just isn't F1. But I honestly am beginning to think that a spec series is going to be the only way to save this sport. Some people cannot see this now, and that is fair enough. But if we carry on down this path then this season is going to be remembered as the season when F1 lost the plot big time. Seriously having to resort to stupid gimmicks like DRS and tyres that are designed to turn a race into a lottery is nothing more than a tool to bring in more casual viewers. The simple fact is, and there examples everywhere, whenever a sport or event changes things to try to become more popular they alienate the real fans, the ones who have supported it all along.

Edited by SuperSoft, 23 April 2012 - 05:04.


#329 SparkPlug

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:54

They've been too easy to drive for a long time now, the current tires have nothing to do with it. An F1 car should be overpowered in relation to the grip available and an important part of the drivers skillset is meaningless now. You should know somethings wrong when Eau Rouge is regarded as an easy corner........

:up:
I fully agree with this statement. I think fans would love to see the aggressive drivers visibly monstering their cars over corners while correcting wheelspin and tyre slippage, shrieking and all. That would give the more brave amongst the lot to push harder at the corners.

I'll go against the grain here, but perhaps Pirelli should give a less grippier tyre which is much more durable. Meaning : drivers can push their car harder and not have to worry about their tyres being destroyed with one late braking or offline move.

Wait, wasnt that what Bridgestone offered ? :drunk:

#330 makroncommander

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:02

They made these funky tires to improve the "show", because of lack of overtaking in 2010.

But, they also added DRS. So they don't need these fragile tires

With DRS, the following car can PUSH to within 1s and then use the added top speed

So make good tires and keep drs

Or drop drs and keep these tires.


I think this is a quick fix for the moment


#331 hunnylander

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:06

Pirelli-roulette

#332 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:16

At least Michael knows better F1 than today's. Today drivers are just operators, doing what their engineer will tell them to do like puppets. Now we need WEC(engineer) instead WDC. Often now the driver is not making his setup in the simulator, somebody else is doing it. So, they get to the track, they put predetermined settings on the car. Engineer doesn't even need the driver to tell him what is happening, he can see it on the screen. He is telling the driver what to do. And the driver is just operating the F1 car. The best tyre engineer win in the end. The drivers in his car a considered great. Good puppets. Until the next race, where new puppets will emerge.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 06:17.


#333 aliasj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:42

Well, Jackie Stewart felt pretty good about today :D


Jackie Stewart now holds a share in the Lotus outfit (via Genii capital). His cars finished 2nd and 3rd. So, of course.

#334 Hulkster

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:44

Must be frustrating and somewhat weird for the drivers.

They grow up dreaming of a seat in F1, and try to get there by driving as fast as they possibly can trying to make themselves stand out. As racers their instinct is to go as fast as possible, and that is what they are judged on and what for the lucky few gets them their F1 drive.

Then when they get to F1, the 'pinnacle of motorsport' and get their hands on an F1 car, they are basically told 'ok, we need you to drive as slowly as you can get away with'.

Totally counterintuitive.

It leaves the qualifying sessions the only time to use what they always thought was the most important thing - pace.

#335 chrcol

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:55

I like the new schumacher, since he is old school he knows this is bull and not real racing so am glad he has spoken out, shame the uk media dont ask the drivers these questions.

I am possibly a bit biased as lewis is possibly the driver on the grid most affected by the tryes however that is not my only reasoning, I dont think its right having a trye lottery each race and hence so many different winners this year. I also dont think its right tryes drop off a cliff, watching riakonnen fall back last weekend wasnt enjoyable.

I also think if we go back to more durable tryes but keep DRS and kers we will still have good overtaking, remember DRS came in at the same time as pirellis which has masked the effect they have had on overtaking.

We need tryes that can take pushing at 90-100% for at least 10 laps per run and probably could work one stopping albeit with some slow down but not too heavy slowdown.

Also I think all 4 compounds need to be available each race and the wet tryes need improving so we dont get red flags every time it rains.

#336 chrcol

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:01

People are always complaining, they hated the conservative Bridgestone, they loved the crazy Pirelli's, now they hate it because it might not suit their favorite driver. Stop moaning, the situation is the same for everyone, it's not fake, if you're burning trough your tyres it's either the fault of the car or the driver, in one case the team should work on solving the problem, in the other case the driver should, pretty straight forward.


its fake they just racing to delta times.

#337 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:16

I like the new schumacher, since he is old school he knows this is bull and not real racing so am glad he has spoken out, shame the uk media dont ask the drivers these questions.

I am possibly a bit biased as lewis is possibly the driver on the grid most affected by the tryes however that is not my only reasoning, I dont think its right having a trye lottery each race and hence so many different winners this year. I also dont think its right tryes drop off a cliff, watching riakonnen fall back last weekend wasnt enjoyable.

I also think if we go back to more durable tryes but keep DRS and kers we will still have good overtaking, remember DRS came in at the same time as pirellis which has masked the effect they have had on overtaking.

We need tryes that can take pushing at 90-100% for at least 10 laps per run and probably could work one stopping albeit with some slow down but not too heavy slowdown.

Also I think all 4 compounds need to be available each race and the wet tryes need improving so we dont get red flags every time it rains.

Yes, we need tyres that can be pushed hard for 10-15 laps and after that normally to wear. You still can try to save this tyres by little nursing them to go longer(say 20 laps). When the moment come and driver feel it ,he will change the tyres. Put next one, race for 15 laps and take new set. We don't need tyres that start to wear from the first lap when pushed at 100%. And lose performance, they should have performance for at least 15 laps. Todays tyres will not last 5 laps if they get pushed.
This is stint from Rosberg in the tests pushing 100%:
13:44:27 50 1:22.932 -0.278
13:45:33 51 1:23.602 +0.670
13:47:37 52 1:24.588 +0.986
13:48:31 53 1:25.418 +0.830
13:50:33 54 1:25.384 -0.034
13:51:29 55 1:25.750 +0.366
13:52:37 56 1:25.987 +0.237
13:54:27 57 1:25.893 -0.094
13:55:34 58 1:26.273 +0.380
13:57:35 59 1:26.384 +0.111
13:58:35 60 1:26.849 +0.465
14:00:28 61 1:27.094 +0.245
14:01:28 62 1:27.456 +0.362
And again:
12:42:29 32 1:23.040 -3.155
12:44:31 33 1:23.698 +0.658
12:45:26 34 1:24.614 +0.916
12:47:27 35 1:25.048 +0.434
12:48:33 36 1:25.537 +0.489
12:49:28 37 1:25.850 +0.313
12:51:31 38 1:25.775 -0.075
12:52:36 39 1:26.162 +0.387
And again:
11:10:26 12 1:24.353 -0.814
11:11:32 13 1:25.060 +0.707
11:13:35 14 1:25.345 +0.285
11:14:31 15 1:25.596 +0.251
11:16:31 16 1:26.057 +0.461
11:17:27 17 1:26.762 +0.705
11:19:28 18 1:27.007 +0.245
11:20:36 19 1:27.005 -0.002
This is how this tyres behave.
We need drop about 1 sec in 15 laps not 4seconds. When pushing 100%. After 15 lap they can lose 0,5 sec per lap, who cares? If you push 95% , you can make your tyres to do 20 laps. OK, do that. Try different strategies , but race for god sake!!! Don't just operate the car.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 07:19.


#338 chrcol

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:18

Couldnt agree more,ive been following F1 since '86 and the racing the last 2 years has been the best i have ever seen.

No matter what tyres or what rules,the teams with the best cars and best drivers always rise to the top.Tyres have decided many championships,tyre management is nothing new.

Come next race the same people will be saying the "hard" tyre was to durable.


its not racing tho its just a lottery.

you basically saying you like shuffled results and the lack of predictability.

#339 chrcol

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:21

You are an idiot if you honestly believe what you have written. It is you with the blinkers on my friend. :rolleyes: Myself and many others were vocally complaining when Hamilton was ahead of Button last season. So your accusation is totally without merit. It was obvious to anybody with an IQ of 80+, what kind of these tyres were and the type of racing we was going to be subjected to. It was only blind fanboyism that prevented a select minority from admitting the obvious. There is no racing and hasn't been since Pirelli entered the sport. It's been racing to a target delta time in the f**king hope of keeping your tyres in optimum condition. THAT IS IT! No amount of spin, or obfuscation can hide this damning fact. It is your own biases preventing you from seeing the bigger picture and supporting one driver instead of another has absolutely nothing to do with it.


I would say the opposite to him heh.

He probably only likes pirellis for one reason, it seems to be hindering lewis who he clearly doesnt like.

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#340 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:24

I don't think there is F1 driver with experience who like Rirelli 2012 tyres.

#341 PMM3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:26

Well they weren't complaining last week, just crybabys.


Exactly!!..sore losers these two. Just last week, they were winning big and all we saw were huge smiles, talks about how they found the right operating window for tyres and how they are starting to work great for them etc etc, next week they get their ass handed to them and all of a sudden the whine bottles are open..One can debate it six ways to Sunday, if this is how F1 should ideally be , but the fact is this is what F1 is now, and will be for the foreseeable future....For someone who has been driving these tyres for the last many months, Schumacher should know what to expect. If Micheal doesnt like it, then he can always choose not to renew his contract OR try and learn how to make the tyres work - instead of sitting there and complaining after a bad weekend.

#342 scheivlak

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:29

Jackie Stewart now holds a share in the Lotus outfit (via Genii capital). His cars finished 2nd and 3rd. So, of course.

And that's what I was pointing at - the losers would whinge and the winners grin. Nothing new.

#343 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:37

Well they weren't complaining last week, just crybabys.


Exactly!!..sore losers these two. Just last week, they were winning big and all we saw were huge smiles, talks about how they found the right operating window for tyres and how they are starting to work great for them etc etc, next week they get their ass handed to them and all of a sudden the whine bottles are open..One can debate it six ways to Sunday, if this is how F1 should ideally be , but the fact is this is what F1 is now, and will be for the foreseeable future....For someone who has been driving these tyres for the last many months, Schumacher should know what to expect. If Micheal doesnt like it, then he can always choose not to renew his contract OR try and learn how to make the tyres work - instead of sitting there and complaining after a bad weekend.

I don't know why people are saying that? Maybe because they don't know what they are talking about?? Because you most certainly don't.
After the China Race Nico said: I was never able to push, even for one lap, was driving so slowly to save the tyres.


Who is crybaby now? So they didn't complain only after Bahrain. He say it also after his win. You can't push this tyres. Did he sound like the guy who won the lottery? Did he sound surprised? Yes , he is and he knows it. They all knows it.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 07:40.


#344 chrcol

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:39

A lot of the drivers today remember the grooved tires. Schumacher in particular had most of his successes on those. The grooves had the weird effect of the tires actually improving somewhat after many laps. That's probably the main reason the drivers could just do "qualifying" laps for the whole race. But that's not necessarily what racing is about IMO. Nursing the tires has been prevalent for most of F1's history, and of course you see it in other racing series. It's just part of racing.


is it 100% of the race in other series tho?

#345 gillesthegenius

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:44

And that's what I was pointing at - the losers would whinge and the winners grin. Nothing new.


This.

#346 gillesthegenius

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:47

People were complaining when Vettel and RBR were running away with it last year, and people are complaining when no one team seems to be able to dominate this year. What is it that people want?

#347 Menace

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:54

It definately smells like sour grapes... if the Mercedes was kind to its tyres like Sauber/Lotus/Red Bull, they would blitz the field.

Of course they cry foul... :lol:

#348 bmardini

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:55

I think the pit radio to Kimi says it all

"Vettel has higher degradation than you. You will catch him"

Not "You are quicker"
Or "Come on Kimi, push hard now"

Lotus was expecting to get Vettel by out-tire-ing him.

And yes, it does strike me as bizarre that GT, WEC, ALMS, ELMS, DTM are all basically flat out races, while F1 has become an endurance tire-management exercise.

When fastest race laps are 4s off pole, this is also incredible. Anyone who has driven any race car will tell you that driving 4s/lap slower - even if you're a bit heavier, is not racing. Its cruising. Now, in 24 hour races at junior levels, you lap a few seconds off your best time but you're constantly navigating traffic, saving tires (stints are 100 minutes usually), saving the car/engine/gearbox, saving money, whatever.

So I agree with comments that drivers spend entire careers trying to find that last tenth, three tenths, that separate the guys who advance from the guys who wind up as hobbyist racers, only to finally reach their dream drive and realize that rather than drive flat out like they are used to they have to tip-toe around these bloody tires.

I also find it totally asinine that pitting EARLY gets you an advantage.

And no, I don't blame Pirelli. I blame the people who told them to make "spicy" racing, to which they said "ok, how about fast-degrading tires?" Rest is history.

#349 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:56

People were complaining when Vettel and RBR were running away with it last year, and people are complaining when no one team seems to be able to dominate this year. What is it that people want?

Racing! Attacking, not waiting the guy ahead to come to you, but you to chase him. Not cruising around, just to do the laps.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 07:56.


#350 Hulkster

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:58

People were complaining when Vettel and RBR were running away with it last year, and people are complaining when no one team seems to be able to dominate this year. What is it that people want?


Last year was boring, but it was genuine and the problem wasn't caused by the rules.

Vettel and Red Bull were the best by a long way, that's just how it was and what sometimes happen in sport, you don't change the sport to introduce randomness the next year to prevent it.

It's like saying Usain Bolt winning all the sprint races is boring, so let's introduce hurdles and sand pits into the racing lanes at random, or make everyone carry a heavy backpack or perhaps an egg and spoon.

You'd certainly get more variation and randomness in the results, but you would never be able to tell who the best runner is.