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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#351 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:02

Last year tyres were better. The fastest guy will always finish ahead. I also think that drivers pushed more.

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#352 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:03

If Micheal doesnt like it, then he can always choose not to renew his contract OR try and learn how to make the tyres work - instead of sitting there and complaining after a bad weekend.


Please tell me who are the drivers that make their tires work?

#353 rolf123

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:04

We are at the stage now where highly-paid F1 drivers are no longer needed.

After all, most top-line non-F1 drivers can easily lap to within 90%+ of good laptimes after a few days in the car.

Maybe it's time for Rossi and Loeb to make their move to F1! :)

#354 H2H

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:04


Handling the cars ressources, among the tyres has always been and rightly so an important part of the sport. However I think we have gone too far into one direction with tyre management being now the holy grail or the alpha and omega of F1.

#355 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:07

People were complaining when Vettel and RBR were running away with it last year, and people are complaining when no one team seems to be able to dominate this year. What is it that people want?

I think it isn't just the factor of having one dominant team.. Personally for me with the current regulations in F1 you get rewarded for driving in a conservative fashion as apposed to actually racing.. I preferred it when refueling added the element of strategy, not knowing what your fuel loads would be at the beginning of the race, who needs to pit first to refuel and you were able to push every race of the lap without having to worry as much that your tires would fall off the cliff!

#356 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:08

It definately smells like sour grapes... if the Mercedes was kind to its tyres like Sauber/Lotus/Red Bull, they would blitz the field.

Of course they cry foul... :lol:


I am a little surprised some people still do not see it, but there is a picture that is beginning to form, one assume that it will be become more obvious in the next couple of races and a few folks might be slapping their heads saying "of course".

Lotus and Red Bull are kind to their tyres? When? Just because they finished high up yesterday? What about he last race, and the one before that? how kind were they then?

Rosberg won the race last week, how can the Mercedes not be kind to its tyres?

In fact how kind was the Lotus to its tyres yesterday? Did I miss Kimi give it 100% to try and take the lead? Because all I saw was him driving at 70% in order to nurse his car home in 2nd.

It is nothing to do with which car is kind to its tyres, it is all about which cars can make the car work on the day, and going by the evidence so far this season this is not something the teams can have much control over. Qualify on Saturday, turn up on Sunday and hope that the weather has not changed so much and wait for the second lap to find out if you are competitive or not. If you are lucky you qualified on pole and so then it may not matter if you don't have the best car on Sunday, everyone else will destroy their tyres floundering behind you anyway.


#357 IceSkyrim

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:13

Handling the cars ressources, among the tyres has always been and rightly so an important part of the sport. However I think we have gone too far into one direction with tyre management being now the holy grail or the alpha and omega of F1.

Pirelli should simply bring Mediuns and Hard/SHard to Bahrein and Schumy should shut it.

There were worse times like the fuel constraints experienced by Rosberg Senior - the fuel tank was limited to 220lt.
So Nico, its not a complete different sport :o

There will always be a restriction/constraint to optimize.

Edited by IceSkyrim, 23 April 2012 - 08:23.


#358 HoldenRT

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:14

I am not a fan of Lewis, but drivers like him should be rewarded in F1 and currently they are being punished, or at least.. not being able to use what makes them so good in the first place.

#359 Masenco

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:19

Could another solution be to improve the protection the pitcrew have in the pitlane so we can increase the pitlane speed limit?

Edited by Masenco, 23 April 2012 - 08:20.


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#360 nOfe4r

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:20

I can't believe that so many people seem to like what they are seeing. I can't see anyone pushing the car as hard as possible, not even in Qualy they go balls out because the tire could disintegrate approaching turn 5.

Schumacher told what he thinks, and if he (mr. corporate) says something unpopular like that there must be something in it.

Pirelli goes contra and says Schumacher was satisfied with the tires in winter testing... WINTER testing, could have something to do with temperatures maybe. They obviously don't get that the biggest problem is that you don't know if the tires will work from one day to the next, so who cares for things three months ago? Hell the teams don't even know what happens when they are in a race and change from option to prime. Either they are blind or they want to be.

Just harder compounds are no solution since the primes had also massive degradation yesterday.

Edited by nOfe4r, 23 April 2012 - 08:22.


#361 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:23

Pirelli should simply bring Mediuns and Hard/SHard to Bahrein and Schumy should shut it.

There were worse times like the fuel constraints experienced by Rosberg Senior - the fuel tank was limited to 220lt.
So Nico, its not a complet different sport :o

There will always be a restriction/constraint to optimize.


No. The difference then is that you have the choice. And that choice is a very important difference to this discussion.

You could drive flat out and thus burn more fuel meaning stopping earlier, or you could be more conservative and go for longer stints.

But the key here is that it was always your choice, your strategy.

You can't do this with these tyres, nobody can make them work, they are all driving slow in order to protect them and nobody has a choice.

#362 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:24

I am not a fan of Lewis, but drivers like him should be rewarded in F1 and currently they are being punished, or at least.. not being able to use what makes them so good in the first place.


The best drivers always rise to the top no matter what regs. Vettel and Alonso have mastered the new regs, Just goes to show why these two are a class above anyone else in terms of speed talent and racecraft.

I dont buy this F1 only suits some drivers. Cream rises to the top.

#363 PMM3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:26

I don't know why people are saying that? Maybe because they don't know what they are talking about?? Because you most certainly don't.
After the China Race Nico said: I was never able to push, even for one lap, was driving so slowly to save the tyres.


Who is crybaby now? So they didn't complain only after Bahrain. He say it also after his win. You can't push this tyres. Did he sound like the guy who won the lottery? Did he sound surprised? Yes , he is and he knows it. They all knows it.


The topic under discussion is a pretty simple one for everyone to know what they are talking about, so please leave aside these childish attempts to appear dense.

Every single driver along with their teams know that the Pirellis degrade fast. They've known if for a long time. Along with it goes the fact that drivers need to be nursing it by driving slower rather than go full attack - No news here. So why does the guy have to be so agitated with something that should be an already accepted reality of today's F1?. Is it because he is frustrated that he is not able to adapt after being at it for 2-3 years now or is it yet another poor race weekend - Thats the news here. Its one thing to make a point, its another to launch a scathing attack - what is quite revealing is not the message which is quite old in itself, but the messenger's frame of mind.

BTW I also agree that the ideal situation is to have tyres that encourage hard racing close to 100% of the time, but its is not the case now and what I get to see now is also enjoyable.

#364 IceSkyrim

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:27

No. The difference then is that you have the choice. And that choice is a very important difference to this discussion.

You could drive flat out and thus burn more fuel meaning stopping earlier, or you could be more conservative and go for longer stints.

But the key here is that it was always your choice, your strategy.

You can't do this with these tyres, nobody can make them work, they are all driving slow in order to protect them and nobody has a choice.

In Malaysia and Bahrein I agree.
But the strategy is running less on FPs to save tires for the race.

Edited by IceSkyrim, 23 April 2012 - 16:45.


#365 Kucki

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:29

Exactly!!..sore losers these two. Just last week, they were winning big and all we saw were huge smiles, talks about how they found the right operating window for tyres and how they are starting to work great for them etc etc, next week they get their ass handed to them and all of a sudden the whine bottles are open..One can debate it six ways to Sunday, if this is how F1 should ideally be , but the fact is this is what F1 is now, and will be for the foreseeable future....For someone who has been driving these tyres for the last many months, Schumacher should know what to expect. If Micheal doesnt like it, then he can always choose not to renew his contract OR try and learn how to make the tyres work - instead of sitting there and complaining after a bad weekend.


Yes great logic?? Drivers should rather retire then tell there opinion publicly. Apparently for some people, anybody who has an opinion is a crybaby.... Drivers should not be allowed to talk!

#366 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:31

The best drivers always rise to the top no matter what regs. Vettel and Alonso have mastered the new regs, Just goes to show why these two are a class above anyone else in terms of speed talent and racecraft.

I dont buy this F1 only suits some drivers. Cream rises to the top.


That's hugely naive.

#367 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:32

I am not a fan of Lewis, but drivers like him should be rewarded in F1 and currently they are being punished, or at least.. not being able to use what makes them so good in the first place.


See trying to argue that point to Button fans in the LH vs JB thread, jeese.....well, you can imagine.

#368 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:34

The best drivers always rise to the top no matter what regs. Vettel and Alonso have mastered the new regs, Just goes to show why these two are a class above anyone else in terms of speed talent and racecraft.

I dont buy this F1 only suits some drivers. Cream rises to the top.


So you think that Vettel has mastered the new regs in the space of a week?

What will you say in the next race if he can't make the tyres work as well like last week in China? Would he have forgotten how to master them?

You don't think that it might be nothing to do with mastering anything and RBR just got lucky with the track, temp and tyre config?

#369 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:36

That's hugely naive.

:up:

#370 PMM3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:36

Please tell me who are the drivers that make their tires work?


Vettel, Raikkonen, Grosjean in the last race.
Button overall has been handling it quite well in 2011 and 2012 making it work to his advantage over his teammate.

Whether you make it work or not is only part of the debate. The other is how you handle it if you cannot make it work - The majority of those who are not able to deal with the tyres dont go shouting from a rooftop about how bad it is - Only this guy does it so far which clearly shows that neither is he able to make the tyres work nor is he able to handle the fact that he cant make the tyres work.

#371 Goron3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:36

Exactly!!..sore losers these two. Just last week, they were winning big and all we saw were huge smiles, talks about how they found the right operating window for tyres and how they are starting to work great for them etc etc, next week they get their ass handed to them and all of a sudden the whine bottles are open..One can debate it six ways to Sunday, if this is how F1 should ideally be , but the fact is this is what F1 is now, and will be for the foreseeable future....For someone who has been driving these tyres for the last many months, Schumacher should know what to expect. If Micheal doesnt like it, then he can always choose not to renew his contract OR try and learn how to make the tyres work - instead of sitting there and complaining after a bad weekend.


Firstly, even last weekend Rosberg said after the race that he never at one point pushed the car. The track temperature just happened to be right for them, a few degrees either way and another team would've been the fastest.

'Schumacher should learn how the tyres works'. That's the problem, he spent the WHOLE race racing against a delta. If he pushed any harder the tyres would have gone. He drove as slowly as he could and not a moment faster and that would have ironically been slower.

Looking back at the China race, it was pretty dull up until the guys on two stoppers ran out of grip and fell back through the field. The rest of race had 7 drivers all in a train, unable to go any faster because they didn't want to burn their tyres up. We had instances of the same yesterday.

If we keep these tyres I honestly think f1 will just introduce a budget cap over time and we'll see it become more of a spec series. You've got teams spending hundreds of millions but in the end it's worthless as performance is tyre limiting. It'd be interested to have just 1 race on the old bridgestone tyres so we could see the true pecking order of the teams and how far apart they were in terms of mechanical and aerodynamic performance. For now they are all within a few tenths because the tyres are limiting them.

Very odd.

#372 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:39

I can't believe that so many people seem to like what they are seeing. I can't see anyone pushing the car as hard as possible, not even in Qualy they go balls out because the tire could disintegrate approaching turn 5.

Schumacher told what he thinks, and if he (mr. corporate) says something unpopular like that there must be something in it.

Pirelli goes contra and says Schumacher was satisfied with the tires in winter testing... WINTER testing, could have something to do with temperatures maybe. They obviously don't get that the biggest problem is that you don't know if the tires will work from one day to the next, so who cares for things three months ago? Hell the teams don't even know what happens when they are in a race and change from option to prime. Either they are blind or they want to be.

Just harder compounds are no solution since the primes had also massive degradation yesterday.


I think you're right. The Pirellis are extremely sensitive to temperature change and at low temperatures they are actually pretty durable and yet the same tyres are laughably bad at high temps. Bridgestone brought tyres that could behave in a similar way right across the band, maybe too effectively but at least the drivers were pushing.

I find it hard to understand how anyone thinks anything else matters when drivers are cruising around to a target lap time, surely this undermines everything that we're seeing in front of us? So what if the racing is closer, it's not genuine racing, just a pattern of events unfolding depending on how quickly each car's tyres have worn out. Sure when the cars are close to each other, they fight for position, that's not all racing is about though.

#373 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:40

No. The difference then is that you have the choice. And that choice is a very important difference to this discussion.

You could drive flat out and thus burn more fuel meaning stopping earlier, or you could be more conservative and go for longer stints.

But the key here is that it was always your choice, your strategy.

You can't do this with these tyres, nobody can make them work, they are all driving slow in order to protect them and nobody has a choice.

I completely agree, the drivers could choose the strategy and even better teams were second guessing as to what fuel loads you were running :D .. Now however we have respective lap times, we know everyone is running similar fuel levels and we can gauge when pit stops are likely to happen.. There is still a strategy but you cannot be as creative with it

#374 IceSkyrim

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:40

Schumacher ideal of F1 is a simple sprint race with TC and illimited tires.

When strategy and driver finesse is throw in the game MS gets lost.

#375 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:41

Vettel, Raikkonen, Grosjean in the last race.
Button overall has been handling it quite well in 2011 and 2012 making it work to his advantage over his teammate.

Whether you make it work or not is only part of the debate. The other is how you handle it if you cannot make it work - The majority of those who are not able to deal with the tyres dont go shouting from a rooftop about how bad it is - Only this guy does it so far which clearly shows that neither is he able to make the tyres work nor is he able to handle the fact that he cant make the tyres work.


So what about these drivers in China? And actually RG didn't make his tires work that good in Bahrein.
2011 is irrelevant since the tires are different and worse (which is the problem). How did Button , the tire whisperer, made the tires work in Mal and Bahrein?

And again: the same complaints come form Nico too. And tell me how Michael didn't make the tires work: top rows quali, DNF's from 3 rd, better than teammate in Mal, same pace in Bahrein.
The comments from them are nothing new, just that this time they are more vocal.

When strategy and driver finesse is throw in the game MS gets lost.



You are not really good at F1 history, are you?

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 April 2012 - 08:44.


#376 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:41

Schumacher did actually make the tyres work - nobody said he did not. He came from 22nd to 10th, finished only 16 seconds behind Nico losing an average of 0.3 seconds per lap despite being in slower traffic for most of the race.

I think his frustration is that you can't attack with these tyres, to do so absolutely destroys their lifespan. Even Nico said - en route to victory in China - he couldn't attack or drive flat out even ONCE.

Previously, you could drive flat out and KNOW they will degrade. However, now drivers can't drive flat out and still the tyres go off quite badly. There is no yard stick whereas previously there was. I'm willing to bet that most drivers would echo Schumacher's sentiments - Button, Hamilton, Alonso etc have all said similar things. If world champions can't make them work, the other drivers will also be struggling too.


I think we all just want flat out racing - may the best man win - rather than a sport dominated by quickly degrading tyres. I hope Pirelli bring more durable tyres so we can see more 'sprints' in F1 rather than 'managed sprints'.

#377 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:43

Vettel, Raikkonen, Grosjean in the last race.
Button overall has been handling it quite well in 2011 and 2012 making it work to his advantage over his teammate.

Whether you make it work or not is only part of the debate. The other is how you handle it if you cannot make it work - The majority of those who are not able to deal with the tyres dont go shouting from a rooftop about how bad it is - Only this guy does it so far which clearly shows that neither is he able to make the tyres work nor is he able to handle the fact that he cant make the tyres work.


Sorry, but that's the same broken argument as "you're only saying this because your driver isn't doing well with these tyres" - Schumacher was so close to Rosberg in the races last year (if not better) precisely because of the tyres. It's not like he hasn't already adapted to what is required with Pirelli racing - he's just telling it how it is. That people are choosing to ignore this shows how ignorant they are.


#378 AlexS

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:44

NIGEL MANSELL has added his voice to the growing discontent with Formula One by declaring: "A monkey could drive these cars."


Lauda: "I've said that any monkey could drive a modern F1 car so I think monkey say, monkey do! These cars have different engine characteristics, traction control and different engine performance. I want to understand this so I can understand what the drivers are talking about"



Anyone remembers this a couple years ago?


Well now they have to think and do a controlled drive. Like in the Glorious Past.


I think we all just want flat out racing - may the best man win - rather than a sport dominated by quickly degrading tyres. I hope Pirelli bring more durable tyres so we can see more 'sprints' in F1 rather than 'managed sprints'.


There is no such thing as driving flat out.

Edited by AlexS, 23 April 2012 - 08:49.


#379 Hacklerf

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:44

Schumacher has a point, hes right



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#380 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:45

Schumacher ideal of F1 is a simple sprint race with TC and illimited tires.

When strategy and driver finesse is throw in the game MS gets lost.


Haha, amazing.

#381 Goron3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:51

Vettel, Raikkonen, Grosjean in the last race.
Button overall has been handling it quite well in 2011 and 2012 making it work to his advantage over his teammate.

Whether you make it work or not is only part of the debate. The other is how you handle it if you cannot make it work - The majority of those who are not able to deal with the tyres dont go shouting from a rooftop about how bad it is - Only this guy does it so far which clearly shows that neither is he able to make the tyres work nor is he able to handle the fact that he cant make the tyres work.


The track temperature was lower than expected on Sunday suiting Lotus a lot, much more than Mclaren for example who suffered as a result. However, go back and watch Vettel, Kimi and Grosjean lapping and you'll see just how slowly they were all going, trying to meet a delta. Rosberg said the same in China where he mentioned how he was deliberately going very slowly the entire race.

'He can't make the tyres work'. He DID make the tyres work, he came from 22nd to finish 10th. What he is stating is that he had to spend the race racing against a delta time and as a result couldn't push any harder, if he did he would have wrecked the tyres. The fact he didn't burn through his tyres and met his delta times shows how he has a very good understanding of the tyres.

Hope that helps.

#382 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:02

Anyone remembers this a couple years ago?


Well now they have to think and do a controlled drive. Like in the Glorious Past.




There is no such thing as driving flat out.


Even if that were right - which it's not - you would have to say if that was one end of the spectrum, Pirelli racing is the complete opposite. It's not like it's just that the tyres need a bit of care now, that's all racing is about now, driving deliberately slowly to eke out rubber not suitable for an F1 car. Don't people get that there is surely a happy medium to be found somewhere?

#383 SuperSoft

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:04

Vettel, Raikkonen, Grosjean in the last race.
Button overall has been handling it quite well in 2011 and 2012 making it work to his advantage over his teammate.


Vettel was lucky enough to be racing from the front. We knew this last week that being in dirty air was killing the tyres, it was why Rosberg was able to hang on for the win, but even he said that he couldn't make the tyres work then, and he won!

Vettel was hanging on, that's all. In my book hanging on is not making the tyres work, he was just fortunate that behind him he had Kimi who also couldn't push because he would have killed his tyres dare he try.

I honestly do not understand why some people aren't getting this.

Next race, with a different track and different temperatures we are highly likely to see the same thing. Whoever manages to lead thru the first corner will spend the whole race hanging on while those behind will nurse their tyres to their best ability and hope that the tyres work a bit better for their car than their rivals.

I predict that Vettel or Hamilton will be on pole on the Saturday, but then it will start snowing and Force India will hit the jackpot finishing 2nd & 3rd behind Hamilton while Vettel goes backwards into the Mercs and Lotus who next time will not be able to get it together on the colder track.

By the time we get to Monaco the Casino will replace it's roulette table with the race.

#384 Neophiliac

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:24

I am quite on board with the complaints here. But I think we need not panic: the problem is solveable and solved it will be. Since last year, some team principals (cough... Whitmarsh.. cough) have said in public and I assume in private to Pirelli also that they were too conservative in 2011 and they needed to give the teams more of a challenge.

This has been done. But the results, I think, are not to many people's liking. Most importantly, when Pirelli joined the sport, I recall the deal they made with Bernie and the teams being something along the lines of 'we'll produce the rapidly degrading tyres that you are asking for, but only if you guys (i.e. teams and drivers) do not complain about us in the press. Otherwise, this becomes an exercise that is bad for the brand, and we (Pirelli) just won't go with it.'

With Schu's comments, the marketing bosses at Pirelli are bound to be mighty unhappy. What they want is to be a brand that is known for "making F1 good to watch again". What they do NOT want is people thinking that they are making shoddy tyres even if that makes F1 more of a spectacle. They'd be much happier with a boring race after which the driver says: "tyres worked like a charm. I pushed hard 100% of the race." Faced with a marketing disaster, I am pretty sure Pirelli's next move will be to move quitte a bit more in the direction of BridgeSTONEs circa 2010. For this year - as I am not sure they can modify compounds outright - it is quite likely we'll see the tyres at the hard end of the spectrum making more appearances than currently anticipated, especially if criticism from drivers and teams persists over the next couple of races.


#385 Hulkster

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:39

I think there are two main issues with this season tyres:

* They have introduced an element of randomness and unpredictability that has very little to do with the car or driver. If a cloud comes over the circuit, it completely changes which are the 'best' cars and which are the 'worst'. You might enjoy the unpredictabilty; but it is a lottery not an elite sporting competition.

* They punish fast, aggressive driving and reward slow, conservative driving.

#386 jamiegc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:49

As said already, the whining is because the 'established' teams haven't been as established as usual this season.

#387 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:52

As said already, the whining is because the 'established' teams haven't been as established as usual this season.


What if it's the other way around: the closeness we see is only due to the tires, and drivers and cars have little impact.

I completely disagree with Schmidt from AMuS, but his point is : who cares as long as the casual fans are happy.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 April 2012 - 09:54.


#388 jamiegc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:06

What if it's the other way around: the closeness we see is only due to the tires, and drivers and cars have little impact.


Thats the same thing though isnt it - fans whining because a certain car hasnt lapped the field like it shouldve so far.

The same whining that teams are too close this season wouldve cried a river had Red Bull been able to lap the field 3 times a race like the RB7 couldve/shouldve...

Another point is that whilst tyre management is the new buzzword, if you go back in time it was car management.

In 2011 & 2010 combined, Red Bull & Mclaren had 16 DNFs between them. Go back a decade to 2002 & 2001 and Ferrari & Mclaren had 32 DNFS.....

Edited by jamiegc, 23 April 2012 - 10:09.


#389 Kvothe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:08

I love the close racing the Pirelli tires have brought to the sport, 10 cars in a line all using DRS is what I live for.

I love that drivers conserve their tires and cruise at 3-4 seconds of the pace, in constant fear of the cliff.

I love that because the clouds are blocking the sun, a car behind will suddenly be much faster, and is able to cruise past using DRS.

I love the irony of us arguing who is the fastest, when none of the drivers are actually pushing and race pace no longer refers to speed but management.

I love that these stop gap measures have become permanent, and they have scrapped the plans for ground effect that would have promoted realistic close racing.

I love how teams can spend millions on development of the cars and on employing the best drivers, hours on set-up for the race, get the car perfect on Saturday, only to be nowhere on Sunday.

To all the haters of Pirelli tires, I have but one question:
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

Edited by Kvothe, 23 April 2012 - 10:09.


#390 30ft penguin

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:09

I completely agree, the drivers could choose the strategy and even better teams were second guessing as to what fuel loads you were running :D .. Now however we have respective lap times, we know everyone is running similar fuel levels and we can gauge when pit stops are likely to happen.. There is still a strategy but you cannot be as creative with it


Yes, this is something which annoys me a lot since the "no more refueling" change. The lack of OPTIONS for teams. You could go for 3 fast, shorter stints or two slower, longer ones or maybe only one stop, or maybe start with one strategy and then change on the fly. Nobody knew before the race started who was going to opt for which strategy. The "you have to start on the fuel load you used during qualifying" change was already bad, but no refueling at all like we have now really makes everything much more boring for me. I LOVED not knowing before the race who had chosen which strategy and then seeing everything unfold like a game of chess, with some team maybe switching from plan A to plan B to counter the strategy of another team. Now, everything is so boring, the drivers just drive at the speed dictated by the tires so as not to ruin them, and there are no real options, because they all HAVE to start on max fuel and they HAVE to use both compounds.

#391 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:14

Cognitive dissonance is afflicting many people on this forum. There has been next to no flat out racing since the introduction of Pirelli, the tyres simply won't allow and I've been extremely vocal about this fact since Malaysia 2011, it was that f**king obvious. :rolleyes: It has been a tyre management exercise and nothing more. The aim has been to drive to a delta time, in order to conserve tyre wear. This is not racing and never will be. Schumacher is just stating the sentiment enjoyed by the majority view in the paddock. It is simply a case of not wanting to offend Pirelli and Bernie by extension, why they have not outspoken until now.

As a racing tyre the Pirelli's are a joke. It was only the novelty of Pirelli tyres KERS and DRS, that obscured this fact last year. Now the novelty has worn off(as always happens in life) the tyres have been exposed for what they really are. What Vettel said on the BBC F1 forum, that a tyre a mere 3 laps older, effectively has its race pace locked in compared to a new tyre over the same stint, to be frank, only stated the obvious what many of us was complaining about last year. I would even go one step further and argue this phenomenon manifests itself during a race stint depending on how hard a driver uses its tyres. A wheelspin or three, with a lock up thrown into the mix and the tyres age/degrade at different rates, giving the drivers 2 different laps times the tyres will allow them to attain. This is a complete farce and nonsense in any language or world you use or inhabit.

Pirelli has to reverse from the nonsensical path they have embarked upon and just make racing tyres that last, allowing the drivers to actually race each other. The reality is the 2012 Pirelli's, are basically the same as the 2011 tyres, accept that the optimum operating window is smaller and they have made the compounds softer. Other than that, they are the same joke of a tyre they've always been.

#392 UPRC

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:14

Vettel, raikonen and grosjean seemed to race pretty good.


Raikkonen's tires may have worked for him in Bahrain, but a week ago in China... ? :well:

#393 rhukkas

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:16

I love how teams can spend millions on development of the cars and on employing the best drivers, hours on set-up for the race, get the car perfect on Saturday, only to be nowhere on Sunday.


bless! That's where your argument falls on its arse. Half the drivers are employing the teams and when GP2 costs £2,000,0000 a year it's pretty hard to 'display' your talent to get hired.

Don't be fooled. The whole show is one big illusion.

#394 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:21

Yes, this is something which annoys me a lot since the "no more refueling" change. The lack of OPTIONS for teams. You could go for 3 fast, shorter stints or two slower, longer ones or maybe only one stop, or maybe start with one strategy and then change on the fly. Nobody knew before the race started who was going to opt for which strategy. The "you have to start on the fuel load you used during qualifying" change was already bad, but no refueling at all like we have now really makes everything much more boring for me. I LOVED not knowing before the race who had chosen which strategy and then seeing everything unfold like a game of chess, with some team maybe switching from plan A to plan B to counter the strategy of another team. Now, everything is so boring, the drivers just drive at the speed dictated by the tires so as not to ruin them, and there are no real options, because they all HAVE to start on max fuel and they HAVE to use both compounds.


in the early days of refuelling yes, but in the last few years of it, refuelling was so predictable and boring, it was got rid of for a reason..

#395 30ft penguin

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:27

in the early days of refuelling yes, but in the last few years of it, refuelling was so predictable and boring, it was got rid of for a reason..


Do you know why? Tires. They messed around with the tires, so that in most cases there was only one, very clearly "best", strategy for the teams to choose. I distinctly remember interviews where people stated that tire option A was clearly inferior to tire option B, so that you HAD to choose B, which then automatically meant going for a x stop strategy, which then meant that everybody had to pit at lap Y, plus/minus 1 lap. Which then caused the "who can stay out one lap longer than the other and overtake that way" problems.

Edited by 30ft penguin, 23 April 2012 - 10:28.


#396 Kvothe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:28

bless! That's where your argument falls on its arse. Half the drivers are employing the teams and when GP2 costs £2,000,0000 a year it's pretty hard to 'display' your talent to get hired.

Don't be fooled. The whole show is one big illusion.


That's the point I was making.

Also how does that one point collapse my argument?

Firstly
For all intents and purposes they are the best drivers, certainly in the cases of the top teams, there no need to get dragged into arguments about lack of funding, lack of opportunity ect its unnecessarily counter-factual.

Secondly what a great strawman argument, even if they weren't the 'best drivers' by your definition it renders none of my points void.

Finally if you ever use bless again, I may have to kill you :smoking: *

*just joking-maybe.

#397 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:28

Raikkonen's tires may have worked for him in Bahrain, but a week ago in China... ? :well:


This will fly over the head of the Pirelli believers, who will blame Raikkonen for being too hard on his tyres why they "fell off the cliff"in China.

#398 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:35

Do you know why? Tires. They messed around with the tires, so that in most cases there was only one, very clearly "best", strategy for the teams to choose. I distinctly remember interviews where people stated that tire option A was clearly inferior to tire option B, so that you HAD to choose B, which then automatically meant going for a x stop strategy, which then meant that everybody had to pit at lap Y, plus/minus 1 lap. Which then caused the "who can stay out one lap longer than the other and overtake that way" problems.


I remember that problem happening even in the final years of the tyre war (04/05/06).

The big problem was overtaking, teams couldn't run optimum fuelling strategies because overtaking was too difficult, I would be interested to see how refuelling would work with DRS and KERS.

#399 sharo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:39

Refueling will not help. It will only mask to an extent the tyre absurdity and increase the mess and safety hazards in the pits. We see now neither on full tanks, nor with empty one cars can be driven to their maximum. Except in for a lap or two in qualifying.

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#400 Jon83

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:42

Schumacher ideal of F1 is a simple sprint race with TC and illimited tires.

When strategy and driver finesse is throw in the game MS gets lost.


Oh dear...