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Rosberg "F1 is a complete different sport this days"


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#401 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:47

Do you know why? Tires. They messed around with the tires, so that in most cases there was only one, very clearly "best", strategy for the teams to choose. I distinctly remember interviews where people stated that tire option A was clearly inferior to tire option B, so that you HAD to choose B, which then automatically meant going for a x stop strategy, which then meant that everybody had to pit at lap Y, plus/minus 1 lap. Which then caused the "who can stay out one lap longer than the other and overtake that way" problems.

Plus how would it be different to now.. The computer simulations will tell us what is the optimum strategy for teams and we can pretty much tell to the LAP when teams need to start coming in for a new set of tyres.. Everything is so calculated now, where is the human instinct, where is the driving the absolute 110% out of the car!

Now I'm not saying refueling is perfect, I just miss the options it gave teams to mix up strategies.. We need to find a good mix in my eyes, something that allows teams to get creative with strategy but does not stop our F1 drivers from being able to push at 100% throughout the race!

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#402 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:47

You know what will solve this? A tyre war ala Bridgestone vs Michelin



#403 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:53

The best tyre rules we had were in the late 80s/early 90s. Four different compounds, no limits on how many they could use during a weekend, they could mix compounds (I think this is huge, would open things up so much). Also lets end this farce of making drivers start on the same tyres they qualify on, no need for it anymore.

#404 PMM3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:54

The track temperature was lower than expected on Sunday suiting Lotus a lot, much more than Mclaren for example who suffered as a result. However, go back and watch Vettel, Kimi and Grosjean lapping and you'll see just how slowly they were all going, trying to meet a delta. Rosberg said the same in China where he mentioned how he was deliberately going very slowly the entire race.

'He can't make the tyres work'. He DID make the tyres work, he came from 22nd to finish 10th. What he is stating is that he had to spend the race racing against a delta time and as a result couldn't push any harder, if he did he would have wrecked the tyres. The fact he didn't burn through his tyres and met his delta times shows how he has a very good understanding of the tyres.

Hope that helps.


No it doesnt help. I agree with all that youve said about Vettel, Kimi, Grosjean etc having to lap slowly than going flat out in China and Bahrain.

Even though we would have liked it otherwise, you, me and everyone else knew that this would be the case even before the season started.. didnt we? So what is prompting this sudden strident outburst from a particular driver other than sheer frustration at his own average results? - Thats what I dont understand.

#405 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:58

Because it's hard to make a point without some info from inside the sport. And it would be a waste of time if the sport itself wouldn't debate.

And again : who says and why is completely irrelevant to the validity of the discussion.

Also, the randomness of the tires was not evident from testing.

Good thing it bites Whitmarsh in the ass : http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99110

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 April 2012 - 11:02.


#406 Burtros

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:07

Will Buxton has tweeted:
Schumacher heavily critical of tyres in post race media scrums. Says racing to a delta time is not real racing. Wants words with Pirelli.



This.

I have just read some of this thread and I am deeply shocked. I guess my own experience with track days and rallying makes me place incredibly high value on the thrill of being on the edge.

Call me naive, but I assumed they were going flat out over shorter stints with the new pirellis... to hear they are driving around at even 85% let alone the 60-70% being claimed by some drivers is shocking. Thats not racing, thats not F1 and its fake excitment.

Giving it further thought, it does explain why we reguarly get GP's with 1 or 2 retirements. Cars being thrashed at the limit break or get crashed - the lack of that perhaps prroves what the drivers are saying.

I have no problem with the DRS, but this revelation on the tyres has rocked my faith in F1... what have I been watching these last few weeks!

#407 aliasj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:08

Here, first-of-all let me present the data from yesterday's race.

First of all, what happens when a team is able to obtain a perfect setup or, i.e., hit the tire's 'sweet spot' for the track/weather conditions.
Posted Image
Vettel vs Raikkonen

Posted Image
Rosberg vs Hamilton vs Button vs Alonso vs Schumacher

As you can see, Vettel and Raikkonen's times were almost identical, despite them starting from 1st and 11th respectively. Also notice how close the times are between the Mercedes, McLaren and Alonso. Even though they're 0.5 - 1 seconds off the pace of Vettel, they own times are very similar. Its almost as if they were following a scripted computer code (like an A.I. in a game) and you could almost put a computer driver in the cockpit instead of a human driver. No offense intended, because the similarity and consistency of the lap times between the World Champions are very little (compared to Ricciardo, Maldonado, Senna, etc). Also notice the lap times similarities between Hamilton who started 2nd and Schumacher who started 22nd, Schumacher did have pace, or to be precise, delta-time pace. Hamilton lost 10 seconds in the pit stop issue or he could have finished P4-P5. Webber was an exception yesterday, I did not understand his pace variations.

Second case, lets see what happens, and the benefit of a perfect tire management and what happens when the driver is constantly involved in fighting for positions on the track (racing wheel-to-wheel).
Posted Image
Di Resta vs Kobayashi

Di Resta and Kobayashi both attempted the two-stop strategy. However, the key difference was that (a) Kobayashi was involved in a lot more fights that Di Resta, and (b) Kobayashi opting for the Softer tire in his second stint meant he could not make it last long enough to prevent his third stop from happening sooner. Di Resta only fight for positions was with his teammate Hulkenberg, whom the team ordered to let Di Resta pass (due to different strategies) and the fight with Alonso at the very last lap. Note: Once Kobayashi puts on his new Soft tire in the last stop, he is immediately fastest, in fact he got 2nd fastest lap of the race, just proving that the Sauber DID have race pace, but the pace at which he was running earlier wasn't due to the car, it was due to tire management strategies.

Hereby, the graph below is very interesting. What happens if you ignore tire management and just go berserk for the fastest times possible, 100% of the car's limit, without bothering about tires? Let me point out Jean-Eric Vergne.
Posted Image
Jean-Eric Vergne, lap times

It is interesting because immediately after his final stop, Vergne decided to go flat-out. His lap time was 1.37.058, which was the 2nd fastest of that lap (0.1s slower than Vettel), and the 4th fastest overall. Yet, due to this, by the end of the race, by the last lap, his pace dropped +5.3 seconds and despite having no traffic, on the last three laps he was the slowest in the entire field, even slower than the HRTs, Virgins, etc., (fact). So this, the inability to push at 100% or else your tires are gone, I think this is what most drivers fear most at this time. One lap you're 0.1 seconds slower than Vettel, and then one lap you're slower than the HRT.

Perhaps, if Pirelli could increase the peak-effectiveness of the tire by just a 'little-bit' more perhaps from 1 lap to 5-6 laps, it would be perfect.

Edited by aliasj, 23 April 2012 - 11:41.


#408 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:11

Both Rosberg and Schumacher were interviewed by the german TV about the tyres after the Bahrain GP and Schumacher was not happy, he was very frustrated. He said it's not fun to drive with tyres like this and Lauda said he understands him because it's not fun for any driver to drive slow just because of the tyres.

Rosberg also said that it's simply not possible to drive on the limit at any time, they have to nurse the tyres since the start of the race. He said F1 it's a complete different sport this days.

I post this because some people are still saying that drivers are still pushing 100% until the tyres don't start to wear off but well now it's confirmed by Schumacher and Rosberg that they don't drive on limit at any time of the race, sometimes they drive only at 60-70%


ok, fine. they drive at 60%-70%

but why dont they drive at 100% make a gap and than pit once or twice more. pitting is what 30secs. and if you push 100% you can gain at least 1.5sec a lap. so in 20 laps you gain one extra pitstop

#409 Burtros

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:18

ok, fine. they drive at 60%-70%

but why dont they drive at 100% make a gap and than pit once or twice more. pitting is what 30secs. and if you push 100% you can gain at least 1.5sec a lap. so in 20 laps you gain one extra pitstop



Rag the car for 20 laps to make the extra pitstop. Brilliant thinking. The tyres dont do 20 laps when being nursed.

#410 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:22

I love the close racing the Pirelli tires have brought to the sport, 10 cars in a line all using DRS is what I live for.

I love that drivers conserve their tires and cruise at 3-4 seconds of the pace, in constant fear of the cliff.

I love that because the clouds are blocking the sun, a car behind will suddenly be much faster, and is able to cruise past using DRS.

I love the irony of us arguing who is the fastest, when none of the drivers are actually pushing and race pace no longer refers to speed but management.

I love that these stop gap measures have become permanent, and they have scrapped the plans for ground effect that would have promoted realistic close racing.

I love how teams can spend millions on development of the cars and on employing the best drivers, hours on set-up for the race, get the car perfect on Saturday, only to be nowhere on Sunday.

To all the haters of Pirelli tires, I have but one question:
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?


Haha, top post - encapsulates everything wrong with this era of the sport.


#411 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:22

ok, fine. they drive at 60%-70%

but why dont they drive at 100% make a gap and than pit once or twice more. pitting is what 30secs. and if you push 100% you can gain at least 1.5sec a lap. so in 20 laps you gain one extra pitstop

You will gain 1,5sec for 1-2 laps and later you start to lose 1,5 sec for every lap. If they drive 100% they will have to change tyres after 6-7 laps max.


#412 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:22

Rag the car for 20 laps to make the extra pitstop. Brilliant thinking. The tyres dont do 20 laps when being nursed.



i ment they need 20 laps to gain one extra pitstop

it would mean if the race has 52 laps and is didived in 4 stints i woult mean you need 7.5 seconds per stint to be able to do an extra pitstop -it would mean that stints would actually be be 3 laps SHORTER. so instead of driving 13 laps at 70% -you drive 10 laps on 100% -there is no mention of a 20 lap stint -you simply did not understand

you obvoiusly do not watch lemans since you know nothing about gaining an extra pitstop on pace

#413 spacekid

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:24

ok, fine. they drive at 60%-70%

but why dont they drive at 100% make a gap and than pit once or twice more. pitting is what 30secs. and if you push 100% you can gain at least 1.5sec a lap. so in 20 laps you gain one extra pitstop


The tyres won't last 20 laps, and the number of sets is limited. I assume the teams have considered 4 stopping, but if the computer simulation shows it is slower or will dump the car into traffic they won't do it.

In fact I'm starting to wonder if the tyres aren't so much of a problem as all the computer simulations and analysts working out that the quickest time can be achieved by going slow, and the drivers just having to 'drive' to match the simulation rather than racing. I don't enjoy watching that, even if a lot of cars do drive past each other while they are doing it.

#414 cooper

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:26

Haha, top post - encapsulates everything wrong with this era of the sport.

+1 Top post!!

#415 jokuvaan

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:27

I remember also Kimi complaining years ago when Michelin left that there wasnt anymore a tyre that could be pushed to the max.

Edited by jokuvaan, 23 April 2012 - 11:27.


#416 Burtros

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:28

i ment they need 20 laps to gain one extra pitstop

it would mean if the race has 52 laps and is didived in 4 stints i woult mean you need 7.5 seconds per stint to be able to do an extra pitstop -it would mean that stints would actually be be 3 laps SHORTER. so instead of driving 13 laps at 70% -you drive 10 laps on 100% -there is no mention of a 20 lap stint -you simply did not understand

you obvoiusly do not watch lemans since you know nothing about gaining an extra pitstop on pace


Without wanting to turn this into a whos got a longer cock competition, Ive been to Le Mans and do follow it. You cannot compare the tyres they use in F1 to Le Mans tyres, and an F1 race lasts 200 miles and 1hr45 mins, not 24hours. Apart from the fact the tyres wont last long enough, its extremely mariginal that an F1 race is long enough to make the strategy work.

Having read this thread, it seems the tyres cannot sustain any prolonged abuse. To drive 1.5 seconds a lap faster than delta for even 5 laps of a stint would kill them you'd end up making more than one extra pitstop. You cant rag them for 5, 10 or 20 laps and expect them to last anything like long enough for that strategy to work.

Edited by Burtros, 23 April 2012 - 11:28.


#417 trogggy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:40

Schumacher's comments (and Rosberg's)were interesting. Drivers are going to be asked what they think / whether they agree, and if they are generally critical of the tyres - they haven't been so far, certainly not in public - then there'll no doubt be changes. Pirelli have worked to the spec they were given, no doubt they'll take feedback on board because they're not in F1 to have bad publicity.
Anyway as Schuey says 90% of the grid agree with him we'll no doubt find out soon. Either way.


#418 jamiegc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:40

As said above, if Pirelli hadve turned up with tyres that lasted forever and the Red Bull drivers lapped everyone twice a race last year as they would've, this forum would be drowning in the tears of those slating Pirelli and demanding unpredictable tyres.

To quote Paul Hembery: "go back and watch the 2010 season and see why we were asked for Canada 2010 tyres"...

#419 Goron3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:41

No it doesnt help. I agree with all that youve said about Vettel, Kimi, Grosjean etc having to lap slowly than going flat out in China and Bahrain.

Even though we would have liked it otherwise, you, me and everyone else knew that this would be the case even before the season started.. didnt we? So what is prompting this sudden strident outburst from a particular driver other than sheer frustration at his own average results? - Thats what I dont understand.


Because somehow they've gone from tyres last year which were okay given the lack of time they had to make them, to tyres which suddenly dictate the entire pecking order if the track temperature varies by a few degrees. Ultimate car and driver performance is nowhere near as important now as the tyres are.

'sheer frustration at his own average results'. He started 22nd and finished 10th, never once over stepping his lap delta and finished around 15 second behind his team mate despite having to start at the back. He wanted to drive faster but wasn't allowed to. His frustration is more towards the tyres not letting you push than his own performance.

Edit: And it reply to MilesDavis, the reason why they can't push for say 10 laps or so and try to build time for another stop is that the tyres are only capable of 1 or 2 fast laps before they complete go. Vergne yesterday in the Toro Rosso did mighty fast lap at the beginning of his stint (only 0.1s slower than the fastest lap of the race) but by the end of that short stint he was 5 seconds off the pace. If you don't drive slowly the tyres are wrecked within 1-2 laps and you'd need a pitstop every 4-5 laps.

Edited by Goron3, 23 April 2012 - 11:49.


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#420 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:46

To quote Paul Hembery: "go back and watch the 2010 season and see why we were asked for Canada 2010 tyres"...


2010 season would have been fine with DRS.


#421 jamiegc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:51

2010 season would have been fine with DRS.


If they hadve had Pirellis we would've never got DRS.

#422 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:53

If they hadve had Pirellis we would've never got DRS.


this is true, but if I had to pick a gimmick I would pick DRS everytime.

#423 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:55

Still the guy with the fastest delta wins! :lol: It is Formula Delta now. After some times drivers will go in one room ,everyone will show his delta, and they will come out and will announce the winner for the race. Why to spend time in useless race.

Edited by ivand911, 23 April 2012 - 11:59.


#424 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:57

Hereby, the graph below is very interesting. What happens if you ignore tire management and just go berserk for the fastest times possible, 100% of the car's limit, without bothering about tires? Let me point out Jean-Eric Vergne.
Posted Image
Jean-Eric Vergne, lap times

It is interesting because immediately after his final stop, Vergne decided to go flat-out. His lap time was 1.37.058, which was the 2nd fastest of that lap (0.1s slower than Vettel), and the 4th fastest overall. Yet, due to this, by the end of the race, by the last lap, his pace dropped +5.3 seconds and despite having no traffic, on the last three laps he was the slowest in the entire field, even slower than the HRTs, Virgins, etc., (fact). So this, the inability to push at 100% or else your tires are gone, I think this is what most drivers fear most at this time. One lap you're 0.1 seconds slower than Vettel, and then one lap you're slower than the HRT.

Perhaps, if Pirelli could increase the peak-effectiveness of the tire by just a 'little-bit' more perhaps from 1 lap to 5-6 laps, it would be perfect.


This particular part of your analysis is very revealing (thanks, it's a great post), or should I say damning of the current spec tyres?

I really hope people will open their eyes to this.

#425 aliasj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:59

ok, fine. they drive at 60%-70%

but why dont they drive at 100% make a gap and than pit once or twice more. pitting is what 30secs. and if you push 100% you can gain at least 1.5sec a lap. so in 20 laps you gain one extra pitstop


This is what happens if you drive at 100% all the time.

Posted Image
Vergne vs Alonso.

Despite having tires that are 3 laps newer, by pushing harder at 100% (he was trying to catch Kobayashi for some reason), his lap-times kept going slower and slower. At his first lap he was 0.1s slower than Vettel (4th fastest lap overall in the entire race), but by the end he was slowest, (even slower than the HRT). Whereas Alonso is not-pushing 100% and managing his tires, so his lap-times improve and are slightly faster in fact, as the fuel burns off and car becomes lighter.

Waddayado?

#426 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:00

2010 season would have been fine with DRS.



+1 :up: and KERS

#427 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:02

Edit: And it reply to MilesDavis, the reason why they can't push for say 10 laps or so and try to build time for another stop is that the tyres are only capable of 1 or 2 fast laps before they complete go. Vergne yesterday in the Toro Rosso did mighty fast lap at the beginning of his stint (only 0.1s slower than the fastest lap of the race) but by the end of that short stint he was 5 seconds off the pace. If you don't drive slowly the tyres are wrecked within 1-2 laps and you'd need a pitstop every 4-5 laps.


yeah, that sucks

but what if they remove pit speed limit -so drivers lose "only" 12-13 secs per pitting -maybe thats the solution. than pittin every 5 laps wouldnt be a problem

#428 Kucki

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:03

2010 season would have been fine with DRS.


2010 was a fantastic season because it had NO DRS

#429 Goron3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:03

As said above, if Pirelli hadve turned up with tyres that lasted forever and the Red Bull drivers lapped everyone twice a race last year as they would've, this forum would be drowning in the tears of those slating Pirelli and demanding unpredictable tyres.

To quote Paul Hembery: "go back and watch the 2010 season and see why we were asked for Canada 2010 tyres"...


Interestingly, we had some cracking races that year. The only poor ones I tend to remember were at the badly designed tracks (Bahrain, Valencia and Abu Dhabi). Hell, introduce DRS to those races and we would've had an even better year, despite the tyres being too durable.

#430 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:08

Haha, top post - encapsulates everything wrong with this era of the sport.

We get it OK. people from Europe like Soccer -- highly quantifiable, action occurs in a measured way (only rarely decided in last 2 seconds of the game) reasonably predictable -- and they like f1 to be like soccer wow that's a shock! ;) :lol:

For those who don't like basketball-ised F1, Sportscar racing is still the traditional performance based, predictable format with durable tyres. Indycar also serves up old school flat out, no passing style open-wheel racing with durable tyres. So there are alternatives. :) But what's so wrong with basketball? :confused: Simply a matter for a viable alternative (e.g. gpwc or similar) to F1 to popup and tick these boxes for traditionalist fans. :)

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 23 April 2012 - 12:09.


#431 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:08

Interestingly, we had some cracking races that year. The only poor ones I tend to remember were at the badly designed tracks (Bahrain, Valencia and Abu Dhabi). Hell, introduce DRS to those races and we would've had an even better year, despite the tyres being too durable.


no, no need for drs at specific tracks. we need proper corners. by proper corners I mean like first 3 corners at old estoril and last corner at old estoril. than last corner at old barcelona -and corners like that. we do not have those any more. wee need fast corners leading to main straight and corner that can be taken with two different lines after the main straight. and some fast consecutive corners like those at spa

#432 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:09

oh, and a proper long and fast banked corner would be welcomed like the one at old hermanos rodriguez

Edited by MilesDavis, 23 April 2012 - 12:10.


#433 aliasj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:11

yeah, that sucks

but what if they remove pit speed limit -so drivers lose "only" 12-13 secs per pitting -maybe thats the solution. than pittin every 5 laps wouldnt be a problem


lol, ha ha. in my game (F1 2011) that's what I did exactly. Given the tires deteriorated so much I removed the pit lane speed limit. well the only thing it helped me was it made my drive-through penalties a non-issue, i kept accumulating them and kept driving through the pit-lane at full speed. although that was in a game. in real life i'm sure we'd have a lot of accidents.

Edited by aliasj, 23 April 2012 - 12:19.


#434 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:11

Despite having tires that are 3 laps newer, by pushing harder at 100% (he was trying to catch Kobayashi for some reason), his lap-times kept going slower and slower. At his first lap he was 0.1s slower than Vettel (4th fastest lap overall in the entire race), but by the end he was slowest, (even slower than the HRT). Whereas Alonso is not-pushing 100% and managing his tires, so his lap-times improve and are slightly faster in fact, as the fuel burns off and car becomes lighter.

Strange, F1 driver trying to catch another F1 driver. Vergne is still rookie, he don't how to drive according to the delta. He will learn.


#435 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:12

ut what if they remove pit speed limit -so drivers lose "only" 12-13 secs per pitting -maybe thats the solution. than pittin every 5 laps wouldnt be a problem

150 kph! :eek:

Other categories use 40 kph instead of the 100 kph of F1!
Yet we still have casual team engineers crossing to the pit wall without even looking during the race...

#436 Coops3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:17

I'm a little bit torn on this one. On the one hand, I think it's fairly clear that the current tyre situation is providing some great racing to watch. However, it cannot be right that drivers are being constantly told in every race to "look after the tyres". In essence, being told to slow down. As MS says, driving to a delta is not real racing, and that's the bottom line for me.

I think the situation needs looking at.

#437 MilesDavis

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:19

150 kph! :eek:

Other categories use 40 kph instead of the 100 kph of F1!
Yet we still have casual team engineers crossing to the pit wall without even looking during the race...


so what? there used to be unlimited pit speed. until Alboreto run some mechanic down at Imola 94 -but that was freak weekend anyway. IMO speeding through pitlane is no problem. have you watched 80s and early90s F1? no incidents other than Imola 94. so whats the big deal? Even worse, pitlane was populated by wifes, photographers, journalists, friends and relatives -and cars speeding 250kph +

Edited by MilesDavis, 23 April 2012 - 12:20.


#438 Coops3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:20

+1 Top post!!


+2!

#439 Goron3

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:26

2010 was a fantastic season because it had NO DRS


DRS certainly would have made Bahrain, Valencia and Abu Dhabi much better spectacles though.

Ideally we'd have the 2010 Bridgestones BUT the soft tyres would degrade after say 15 flying laps whilst the mediums were slower but could last say 25 laps. The problem that year was that you could push them EVERY lap for a whole race.



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#440 fieraku

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:26

Nobody is talking about refuelling here, you got the wrong thread, this is just about the tyres. I don't want to see refuelling back.



Sorry but this is wrong, look at the results of the last 4 races and tell me which team has the best car/driver package. The results alone tell us all we need to know about what effect the tyres are having on performance.

Your argument seems to be that the tyres are just something that teams need to work with and the best teams have figured out how to do it better, but this is clearly flawed because it changes from race to race. Last race the Mercedes were the team to beat, they took pole and won the race with the RBR left floundering. This week it was exactly the opposite.

That tells us that there is no skill in getting these tyres to work, some teams have not figured it out. All that is happening that depending on the track and the weather conditions come raceday the tyres might work for you or they might not. Why are we having drivers admitting to being surprised that they finished 2nd when it has been a dry race and very few retirements? Surprised? This is F1, nobody should be surprised by finding out they have a quick car come raceday.

I think you agree with most points, certainly your other posts seem to suggest that, so I don't really understand why you are still defending the tyres, especially when you admit they are a gimmick.

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's, back when they were nothing more than fag packets with engines. This is not some kind of romantic dreaming of the good old days though, I cannot remember ever a Formula One season where the tyres were the most important part of the package - it has never happened. Tyres should not be deciding the result of a race, they honestly shouldn't. Technical ability and driver skill should always decide the result of a race. Tyres should be managed and those who manage them better will take advantage, that is fair enough. But this is not about managing tyres at all, this is about the tyres deliberately slowing the cars down and stopping racing from happening.


I am firmly against a spec series, it just isn't F1. But I honestly am beginning to think that a spec series is going to be the only way to save this sport. Some people cannot see this now, and that is fair enough. But if we carry on down this path then this season is going to be remembered as the season when F1 lost the plot big time. Seriously having to resort to stupid gimmicks like DRS and tyres that are designed to turn a race into a lottery is nothing more than a tool to bring in more casual viewers. The simple fact is, and there examples everywhere, whenever a sport or event changes things to try to become more popular they alienate the real fans, the ones who have supported it all along.

:up: :up: :up:

Since 96 when I moved to US I've woken at 3-4-5 am 100s of times to watch live the "boring,no passing,processional" F1 but at least it was REAL,10 passes a race but REAL,it took skill and determination to make it stick not some gimmick tires and push to pass press of the finger.

Pirelli have truly ruined F1.We could rewrite F1 history if these type of tires were used throughout the years and Ayrton Senna might have been another "talented" driver if he only had to drive "Within a delta time"

#441 muramasa

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:29

2010 season would have been fine with DRS.

or wouldve been fine with cars that's not so aero-sensitive.

If they hadve had Pirellis we would've never got DRS.

if they'd had "proper" car, we wouldve never got or required DRS or current tyres.

You know what will solve this? A tyre war ala Bridgestone vs Michelin

Only solution is to change the car.


Unless we look into and revise the core/fundamental ie the car, we never get anywhere.
No matter how much you fiddle with trivial/peripheral like tyres, DRS etc, it dont change anything, just keep repeating same thing or continue going back and force.

What should be called for is to revise the whole concept of F1 car, not tyres.



#442 Kraze

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:32

I read somewhere after Chinese GP Mercedes said they are working on their cars problem of eating up tires quickly. Now they want the rules changed just because they cudnt get it right, this is blasphemy.

#443 Tardis40

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:35

It is really is a joke. Refuelling was a lot better in my eyes also.


This

#444 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:39

We get it OK. people from Europe like Soccer -- highly quantifiable, action occurs in a measured way (only rarely decided in last 2 seconds of the game) reasonably predictable -- and they like f1 to be like soccer wow that's a shock! ;) :lol:

For those who don't like basketball-ised F1, Sportscar racing is still the traditional performance based, predictable format with durable tyres. Indycar also serves up old school flat out, no passing style open-wheel racing with durable tyres. So there are alternatives. :) But what's so wrong with basketball? :confused: Simply a matter for a viable alternative (e.g. gpwc or similar) to F1 to popup and tick these boxes for traditionalist fans. :)


Dude, it's not like we're some old, backwards sages - we enjoy trying to decode this complex sport as much as anyone. This isn't the issue, the issue is that racing to lap time delta is a load of bullshit.

#445 pdac

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:39

:up: :up: :up:

Since 96 when I moved to US I've woken at 3-4-5 am 100s of times to watch live the "boring,no passing,processional" F1 but at least it was REAL,10 passes a race but REAL,it took skill and determination to make it stick not some gimmick tires and push to pass press of the finger.

Pirelli have truly ruined F1.We could rewrite F1 history if these type of tires were used throughout the years and Ayrton Senna might have been another "talented" driver if he only had to drive "Within a delta time"

Actually, it's the FIA that have totally ruined F1. Pirelli were asked to produce these tyres by the FIA. The FIA have acknowledged that there is an issue with processional racing due to the design aspects of modern F1 cars, but their response to that has been to introduce a number of gimicks to try to artificially alter the situation rather than bringing in different regulations that would resolve the problem.

#446 pUs

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:53

Tires that wear down quickly like the current Pirellis - Great.
Tires that also has an very narrow operating window like the current Pirellis - Not great.

I'm no expert at this and I certainly don't know if it would be possible to combine agressively wearing tires with a bigger operating window. Perhaps it's really hard, I have no idea. But the situation right now is not fair. There is a limit to everything, the fact that no team seem to understand the tires somewhat from race to race is very weird.

In my opinion, the tires simply aren't good enough for being a spec tire. And I write this the day after two of my three favorite drivers finished 1st and 2nd..

Edited by pUs, 23 April 2012 - 12:55.


#447 schubacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:05

:up: :up: :up:

Since 96 when I moved to US I've woken at 3-4-5 am 100s of times to watch live the "boring,no passing,processional" F1 but at least it was REAL,10 passes a race but REAL,it took skill and determination to make it stick not some gimmick tires and push to pass press of the finger.

Pirelli have truly ruined F1.We could rewrite F1 history if these type of tires were used throughout the years and Ayrton Senna might have been another "talented" driver if he only had to drive "Within a delta time"


I have to agree with you here....


I fear that BE and the FIA will introduce competition yellows soon enough....

#448 swiniodzik

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:15

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's, back when they were nothing more than fag packets with engines. This is not some kind of romantic dreaming of the good old days though, I cannot remember ever a Formula One season where the tyres were the most important part of the package - it has never happened. Tyres should not be deciding the result of a race, they honestly shouldn't. Technical ability and driver skill should always decide the result of a race. Tyres should be managed and those who manage them better will take advantage, that is fair enough. But this is not about managing tyres at all, this is about the tyres deliberately slowing the cars down and stopping racing from happening.


It has happened more often than not actually. From an article by Paul Kimmage in The Sunday Times from 2006:

At a press conference the next afternoon at the [Istanbul] circuit, [Jenson Button] is joined on stage by fellow drivers David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen and Tiago Monteiro. A French journalist raises his hand and asks, "Question to you all: who will win the world championship? Schumacher or Alonso?" The four give the same reply: the championship will basically be decided by the team with the best tyres. The journalist is annoyed. What? No names? No opinions? "We've given our opinions," Button insists. "We can't see into the future. We don't know what's going to happen."

We meet an hour later and I pull him up on it again. "What was all that corporate crap? Why couldn't you give the guy a straight answer: Alonso or Schumacher? As a journalist and a fan, I find that absolutely infuriating."

"Because it's the truth," he says. "It will all come down to the tyres."

"The tyres," I repeat, incredulous.

"The tyres, 100%," he insists.



#449 peroa

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:23

It has happened more often than not actually. From an article by Paul Kimmage in The Sunday Times from 2006:

I don't think you can compare tyre war era with what we're discussing here, that's just idiotic. :rolleyes:

#450 BigWicks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 13:25

I don't think you can compare tyre war era with what we're discussing here, that's just idiotic. :rolleyes:


I cannot remember ever a Formula One season where the tyres were the most important part of the package - it has never happened.


That statement has been proven false. That's not idiotic, that's proving a statement wrong using empirical evidence.