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Will McLaren Cost Hamilton The 2012 World Drivers Championship?


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#301 Mandzipop

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:48

This is not the "It appears that Lewis may or may not know the name of the mechanic who had issues with his nuts" thread, or "Mclaren are trying to sabotage Lewis", this is a thread about whether the mistakes that Mclaren are making may cost Lewis the WDC or not.

Please stay on topic.



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#302 Lazy

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:50

Probably because you're trying to make out that somehow, one person is responsible for the actions of another. Which is absolutely ludicrous. Mind you, it's sort of par for course from what I can tell...


Ok, you tell me why it happens to Lewis all the time and not to Jenson. It's not the same person making the mistakes all the time, I doubt the wheel nut guy is same guy who makes all these terrible strategies for Lewis, so what's the common denominator?

#303 BinaryDad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:50

Same reply as to P123, basically: it's not about mention the name or not, it's about declaring he doesn't know his name. That's what Hamilton said, although I see attempts to re-define the meaning of a simple sentence like "I don't know who he is" into something else are already in progress. Common practice when it comes to Hamilton quotes. :D


Is English your first language? Because that's not the same as "I don't know his name". It could just mean that he doesn't know which mechanic was manning the gun! Maybe they have the guys on rotation. I can't help but feel that you really are trying to turn nothing into something just to fit your point of view.

Sure...it's POSSIBLE that he doesn't actually know the mechanics name, but give that LH spends a large part of the year with the whole team, it's highly unlikely.


#304 BinaryDad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:54

Ok, you tell me why it happens to Lewis all the time and not to Jenson. It's not the same person making the mistakes all the time, I doubt the wheel nut guy is same guy who makes all these terrible strategies for Lewis, so what's the common denominator?


I see the game you;re playing here.

I could equally say that the answer is obvious; given that the common denominator here, is that it happens to a Mclaren driver, and since Martin Whitmarsh is the one element present in every mess up, it has something to do with how he runs the team. Maybe it's something about his "management" style that causes people to mess up. Maybe it causes them to only mess up with one driver.

See? I can play that game too....


#305 Lazy

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:59

Probably because you're trying to make out that somehow, one person is responsible for the actions of another. Which is absolutely ludicrous. Mind you, it's sort of par for course from what I can tell...



I see the game you;re playing here.

I could equally say that the answer is obvious; given that the common denominator here, is that it happens to a Mclaren driver, and since Martin Whitmarsh is the one element present in every mess up, it has something to do with how he runs the team. Maybe it's something about his "management" style that causes people to mess up. Maybe it causes them to only mess up with one driver.

See? I can play that game too....


Interesting, so now you are saying that one person can be responsible for the actions of another?

I'm not sure you can tbh.

#306 as65p

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:02

Is English your first language? Because that's not the same as "I don't know his name". It could just mean that he doesn't know which mechanic was manning the gun! Maybe they have the guys on rotation. I can't help but feel that you really are trying to turn nothing into something just to fit your point of view.

Sure...it's POSSIBLE that he doesn't actually know the mechanics name, but give that LH spends a large part of the year with the whole team, it's highly unlikely.


Well, I can't help but feeling that you try to twist plain and simple english just to fit your point of view.

Whatever.

#307 BinaryDad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:02

Interesting, so now you are saying that one person can be responsible for the actions of another?

I'm not sure you can tbh.


No, I'm just showing that I can copy you quite easily, and make up a completely ludicrous theory that doesn't hold any water. As I said...I can play your game too.




#308 BinaryDad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:07

Well, I can't help but feeling that you try to twist plain and simple english just to fit your point of view.

Whatever.


Only, there's nothing to twist. If Lewis had said that he didn't know the guys name, you might have a point. But even then; that wouldn't make him arrogant, not in the least.

From what I can tell, you're just trying to read too much into something that simply isn't there.


#309 Lazy

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:11

No, I'm just showing that I can copy you quite easily, and make up a completely ludicrous theory that doesn't hold any water. As I said...I can play your game too.


So people can't affect the actions of others? Not even Whitmarsh, the team principal? That doesn't seem right to me.

#310 BinaryDad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:14

So people can't affect the actions of others? Not even Whitmarsh, the team principal? That doesn't seem right to me.


Certainly not in the way you're trying to make out. There's a big difference between somebody's boss telling them what to do, and say, me eating my lunch in a certain way causing somebody else to mess up their own job repeatedly.




#311 P123

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:29

You miss the point. It's not about weather Hamilton should speak out his name or not, it's about Hamilton declaring he doesn't know his name.

"I don't know who he is.....".

That's what I found odd, or 'bizarre" as someone more eloquent than me put it.


Short of questionning all the drivers on the grid asking them to name each member of their pitcrew I'm not sure how unusual /odd it would be for LH to not know the name of the left rear gun operator. But this is a bit off topic as to the performance of McLaren as a team and their various screw ups which have proven costly to both drivers.

#312 GlenP

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:40

A hell of a lot of things can go wrong in F1. There are a lot of people in a team, and all of them have responsibilities - some of which can't be backed-up by any safety arrangement. I think we all can think of some examples of that from last year. In fact from any year. To claim that all screw ups are happening to one driver is nonsense. There have only been four races, and the pit stop stuff in the last race (to use one example) happened to both drivers.

The team in general perhaps could do better I suppose. But as for screwing one driver and not the other - I don't see it at all.

#313 Markn93

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:56

A hell of a lot of things can go wrong in F1. There are a lot of people in a team, and all of them have responsibilities - some of which can't be backed-up by any safety arrangement. I think we all can think of some examples of that from last year. In fact from any year. To claim that all screw ups are happening to one driver is nonsense. There have only been four races, and the pit stop stuff in the last race (to use one example) happened to both drivers.

The team in general perhaps could do better I suppose. But as for screwing one driver and not the other - I don't see it at all.


I agree. I am of the opinion that this season will be very close and whoever doesn't win, if it's anything like 2010 this could be up to 4 people, any of whom will probably have a valid point to make in blaming their team for costing them the championship. (And if they all have issues it's as good as none of them having any.)

It could very well be that this includes Lewis, but that's not to say other drivers won't be in the same boat.

Edited by Markn93, 01 May 2012 - 21:57.


#314 Lazy

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:02

Certainly not in the way you're trying to make out. There's a big difference between somebody's boss telling them what to do, and say, me eating my lunch in a certain way causing somebody else to mess up their own job repeatedly.


But isn't Lewis boss of his side of the garage?

#315 BinaryDad

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:28

But isn't Lewis boss of his side of the garage?


You're really reaching now. That would most likely be Latham or Prew.




#316 pinkypants

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:14

Where did he say he DIDN'T know the mechanics name?

NOWHERE!

Does Whitmarsh not know the mechanics name? or Jenson, because they BOTH didn't provide the mechanics name when discussing the pit stop issues!! So why single out Lewis?

Find something else to pick on, because there is nothing here to fault Lewis or the team on.

#317 pinkypants

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:17

Short of questionning all the drivers on the grid asking them to name each member of their pitcrew I'm not sure how unusual /odd it would be for LH to not know the name of the left rear gun operator. But this is a bit off topic as to the performance of McLaren as a team and their various screw ups which have proven costly to both drivers.


Lewis spent time with his mechanics to go over pitstops (see my previous posts). McLaren and it's members have a duty of care to protect their staff - the mechanic chose to be a mechanic, not a TV personality or contact for the press. It would have been completely unfair and inappropriate to name the mechanic in question. Neither Lewis, Jenson and MW have done so.

Edited by pinkypants, 02 May 2012 - 06:18.


#318 denthierry

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:04

McLaren costing Hamilton points???

I think in the first place, without a McLaren under his a... there is no way Hamilton would have finished any of the first four races in the top 3.
So IF he's disappointed or IF feels treated badly by his team, he's definitely free to leave and sign-up for another team.
But so far, as far as i'm concerned, he didn't, did he? (There's no proof of Hamilton having signed up for any other team).

So stop the sour grapes and just accept that Formula One is not about individuals racing each other but about teams.
You cannot separate driver, car, engine, pit-stops, management, strategy, etc... ALL have to correlate and work together at their best and in harmony with each other.
It's the team that manages to make this happen that most likely hosts the WDC to be and will become WCC.






#319 Lazy

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:07

You're really reaching now. That would most likely be Latham or Prew.


Really? Because there was a lengthy discussion in the Jenson v Lewis thread a while back that concluded decisively that the driver was boss of his side of the garage. I've no doubt Fred is and I'm pretty sure Jenson is.

Not reaching at all, this is my original point, why is there something wrong with Lewis' side of the garage and not Jensons?

Listening to some of the petulant radio messages and publically critical media statements from Lewis, it's not hard to imagine a little tension in his relationship with his engineers that might not be conducive to an efficient working relationship. I don't know for sure but that's my guess, it's clearly not a McLaren problem or it would be the same for both drivers and I'm sure most Lewis fans here won't accept that.

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#320 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:28

Where did he say he DIDN'T know the mechanics name?

NOWHERE!

Does Whitmarsh not know the mechanics name? or Jenson, because they BOTH didn't provide the mechanics name when discussing the pit stop issues!! So why single out Lewis?


Because only Hamilton is on record with "I don't know who he is". AFAIK neither Button nor Whitmarsh said that.

A sentence as plain and simply as they come, yet people are trying to either run away from it or, alternatively, re-define what it means.

#321 bub

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:01

If they keep making mistakes.

#322 slmk

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08

McLaren costing Hamilton points???

I think in the first place, without a McLaren under his a... there is no way Hamilton would have finished any of the first four races in the top 3.
So IF he's disappointed or IF feels treated badly by his team, he's definitely free to leave and sign-up for another team.
But so far, as far as i'm concerned, he didn't, did he? (There's no proof of Hamilton having signed up for any other team).

So stop the sour grapes and just accept that Formula One is not about individuals racing each other but about teams.
You cannot separate driver, car, engine, pit-stops, management, strategy, etc... ALL have to correlate and work together at their best and in harmony with each other.
It's the team that manages to make this happen that most likely hosts the WDC to be and will become WCC.


This reasoning is flawed because McLaren can't expect its pairing (which is the best in all of F1) to win titles if the team keeps putting them in difficult situations, especially with the grid being so close together these days.

Saying that Hamilton should be thanking McLaren every day for the car is like saying Vettel is foreved in debt to Red Bull because without the rocketships he got in 2010 and 2011 he wouldn't have had a shot at the titles.

#323 Will

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:25

Because only Hamilton is on record with "I don't know who he is". AFAIK neither Button nor Whitmarsh said that.

A sentence as plain and simply as they come, yet people are trying to either run away from it or, alternatively, re-define what it means.


In the style of your interpretation of the 2007 season?  ;)

#324 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:33

The whole Mclaren team including its drivers are guilty of not performing with this seasons best car. 1 win which should have been 4 does not cut it when you have drivers of the quality of Vettel and Alonso in different teams. Mclaren just doesnt have that top class driver that RB and Ferrari do and its really showing.

#325 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:34

In the style of your interpretation of the 2007 season? ;)


Actually the style is "no interpretation", simply taking the words literally. Very unpopular, apparently. :D

#326 GlenP

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:43

The whole Mclaren team including its drivers are guilty of not performing with this seasons best car. 1 win which should have been 4 does not cut it when you have drivers of the quality of Vettel and Alonso in different teams. Mclaren just doesnt have that top class driver that RB and Ferrari do and its really showing.

It's a pretty big on-going assumption that the McLaren is the best car. It was, certainly, but that was as much down to getting it working better sooner than it being an intrinsically better design I think. Dialing it in to the tyres is a bigger factor than anything else at the moment, plus other random factors such as track temperature are making it difficult to judge which is the best car.

I don't buy that the drivers are sub-standard though - both are right up there in my estimation (although I feel that probably Alonso has the edge on everyone).

#327 ForzaGTR

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:20

The whole Mclaren team including its drivers are guilty of not performing with this seasons best car. 1 win which should have been 4 does not cut it when you have drivers of the quality of Vettel and Alonso in different teams. Mclaren just doesnt have that top class driver that RB and Ferrari do and its really showing.


What F1 season have you been watching? The Mclaren has been convincingly out paced in 2 of 4 races. The car was shocking on its tyres in the last race, both drivers pitted very early. The car is good yes, but the best? No way.

People have jumped to deluded conclusions based on Melbourne, a track that is known to mask and exaggerate performance.

Edited by MightyMoose, 02 May 2012 - 12:35.
Removed: I know you're a troll but seriously try harder.


#328 Andy35

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:44

I don't want to stir the pot but it seems that Jenson will be allowed to keep all his winning trophies from this year and has been promised not 1 but 6 Mclaren F1 LM's if he wins the championship.

Such is the favouritism for Jenson Mr Ron Dennis has graciously allowed Button's girlfriend Jessica to join him and Mr Max Mosley, borough of Chelsea, on a night out wearing M&S pantomime German outfits that are definitely nothing to do with the Nazi party.



Andy

Edited by Andy35, 02 May 2012 - 12:45.


#329 pinkypants

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:28

I don't want to stir the pot but it seems that Jenson will be allowed to keep all his winning trophies from this year and has been promised not 1 but 6 Mclaren F1 LM's if he wins the championship.

Such is the favouritism for Jenson Mr Ron Dennis has graciously allowed Button's girlfriend Jessica to join him and Mr Max Mosley, borough of Chelsea, on a night out wearing M&S pantomime German outfits that are definitely nothing to do with the Nazi party.



Andy


Sounds great, I knew I should have been an F1 driver..

can I still I sign up?!

#330 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 16:05

Posts deleted, obviuously.

Please discuss the topic, which is 'Will McLaren cost Hamilton the 2012 WDC?'

It's nothing at all to do with 2007, Alonso, Kimi, or the name of man holding the rear left wheel gun.

#331 Rinehart

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 14:41

I think the premise of this thread is pretty arrogant since the team always do a good job of protecting Hamilton when he makes a mistake.
The title was winnable in 2007 & 2010. Its a team game as the likes of Stewart, Senna and Schumacher so evidentially recognised.



#332 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 17:53

If we go by last year we should ask Jenson (beated Lewis with 43 points last year).

And, If we go by this years first four races it has been Jenson who has been the moore aggressive and eager.

The team cost Hamilton, that´s excuses only. Every team got some hickups over the season.

#333 dans79

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:01

The team cost Hamilton, that´s excuses only.


That's a pretty simplistic view....

When it becomes a noticeable pattern, it's not an excuse it's a fact. Imo, if McLaren can't get their act together, they will cost both drivers a chance at the championship.

Pit stops have been slow all season even when nothing goes wrong, check out these times from the China.
http://www.f1fanatic...prix-pit-stops/

Lewis lost 1.315 seconds to Alonso(fastest pit times) and lost 0.449 to Webber. With the field being so tight, the team can't give time away in the pits like this.

Don't even get me started on the left rear guy. He screwed up 3 pit stops in 2 races, and was probably only yanked because Lewis was vocal about the slow stops to the press.

MW needs to get his act together more than anyone else, check out his quotes about the left rear guy. This is F1, not a daycare. The crew doesn't need protection, they need leadership. I don't think MW knows how to lead, he acts like a pr person, always trying to paint a positive picture, reguarless of how bad the screw up is.
http://my.news.yahoo...16186--spt.html





#334 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:19

That's a pretty simplistic view....

When it becomes a noticeable pattern, it's not an excuse it's a fact. Imo, if McLaren can't get their act together, they will cost both drivers a chance at the championship.

Pit stops have been slow all season even when nothing goes wrong, check out these times from the China.
http://www.f1fanatic...prix-pit-stops/

Lewis lost 1.315 seconds to Alonso(fastest pit times) and lost 0.449 to Webber. With the field being so tight, the team can't give time away in the pits like this.

Don't even get me started on the left rear guy. He screwed up 3 pit stops in 2 races, and was probably only yanked because Lewis was vocal about the slow stops to the press.

MW needs to get his act together more than anyone else, check out his quotes about the left rear guy. This is F1, not a daycare. The crew doesn't need protection, they need leadership. I don't think MW knows how to lead, he acts like a pr person, always trying to paint a positive picture, reguarless of how bad the screw up is.
http://my.news.yahoo...16186--spt.html


The only one who can prove it is Lewis himself, another third will do it.

Edited by tommyhjortasen, 04 May 2012 - 22:19.


#335 dans79

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:26

The only one who can prove it is Lewis himself, another third will do it.


Prove what?

#336 Lazy

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:18

That's a pretty simplistic view....

When it becomes a noticeable pattern, it's not an excuse it's a fact. Imo, if McLaren can't get their act together, they will cost both drivers a chance at the championship.

Pit stops have been slow all season even when nothing goes wrong, check out these times from the China.
http://www.f1fanatic...prix-pit-stops/

Lewis lost 1.315 seconds to Alonso(fastest pit times) and lost 0.449 to Webber. With the field being so tight, the team can't give time away in the pits like this.

Don't even get me started on the left rear guy. He screwed up 3 pit stops in 2 races, and was probably only yanked because Lewis was vocal about the slow stops to the press.

MW needs to get his act together more than anyone else, check out his quotes about the left rear guy. This is F1, not a daycare. The crew doesn't need protection, they need leadership. I don't think MW knows how to lead, he acts like a pr person, always trying to paint a positive picture, reguarless of how bad the screw up is.
http://my.news.yahoo...16186--spt.html


Only for Hamilton, and his side of the garage.

"McLaren’s pit stops were generally good and they won a battle in the pits with Lotus when Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Raikkonen came in together on lap ten."
http://www.f1fanatic...prix-pit-stops/

It's a shame all the really talented TP's are stuck in this forum. We've got people here who can make the correct decisions with 0.01% of the relevant information, nevermind the mind reading, clairvoyance etc... :rolleyes:

#337 velgajski1

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:57

If we go by last year we should ask Jenson (beated Lewis with 43 points last year).

And, If we go by this years first four races it has been Jenson who has been the moore aggressive and eager.

The team cost Hamilton, that´s excuses only. Every team got some hickups over the season.


If we go by any other stat, like number of wins/podiums/pole positions and if we scale it down to 'per race' then its clear its Lewis who is McLaren's bigger chance. And don't mention Jenson's Honda years, they are just excuses for him not delivering, every team has hickups over couple of seasons. :wave:

Edited by velgajski1, 05 May 2012 - 11:57.


#338 TallyHo

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:18

If we go by any other stat, like number of wins/podiums/pole positions and if we scale it down to 'per race' then its clear its Lewis who is McLaren's bigger chance. And don't mention Jenson's Honda years, they are just excuses for him not delivering, every team has hickups over couple of seasons. :wave:

Jenson being in a poor car is just an excuse for him not delivering, yet Hamilton not being in a "Happy bubble" is perfectly acceptable :lol:.

Edited by TallyHo, 05 May 2012 - 12:24.


#339 velgajski1

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:33

Jenson being in a poor car is just an excuse for him not delivering, yet Hamilton not being in a "Happy bubble" is perfectly acceptable :lol:.


Hey, I just applied logic by some people who claim that 'its all normal' and that Lewis has to perform better if he wants better results, not blame it on car / botched pitstops / reliability / strategy even in 2012. when so far it is Lewis who is strongest link in McLaren chain so to speak.

Button won his first race in his 113th GP, I'm quite sure that Button fans attribute his former results to him simply not being good enough :)

Edited by velgajski1, 05 May 2012 - 12:36.


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#340 MP422

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 16:11

Hey, I just applied logic by some people who claim that 'its all normal' and that Lewis has to perform better if he wants better results, not blame it on car / botched pitstops / reliability / strategy even in 2012. when so far it is Lewis who is strongest link in McLaren chain so to speak.

Button won his first race in his 113th GP, I'm quite sure that Button fans attribute his former results to him simply not being good enough :)



And what a lucky strike it was !!! :rotfl: :smoking:

#341 mlsnoopy

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 17:38

I think the premise of this thread is pretty arrogant since the team always do a good job of protecting Hamilton when he makes a mistake.
The title was winnable in 2007 & 2010. Its a team game as the likes of Stewart, Senna and Schumacher so evidentially recognised.


So we should ignore China 2007 when they needed just 4 points to get Raikonnen out of the WDC battle.
Or should we ignore Melbourne, China, Malaysia, Barcelona, Hungary, Suzuka,.. in 2010.


#342 P123

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 18:22

So we should ignore China 2007 when they needed just 4 points to get Raikonnen out of the WDC battle.
Or should we ignore Melbourne, China, Malaysia, Barcelona, Hungary, Suzuka,.. in 2010.


Are you demanding the team be perfect? Or is this going to turn into a predicatble squabble over Hamilton's mistakes and the teams mistakes, with bot sides of the arguement unable to accept that neither are error free?

Championships are won and lost over a season. McLaren's less than efficient pit stops have so far arguably cost both drivers points.

#343 dans79

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 18:28

Championships are won and lost over a season. McLaren's less than efficient pit stops have so far arguably cost both drivers points.


So many here, don't want to admit that....


#344 Anomnader

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 20:32

So many here, don't want to admit that....


I don't those other people have being watching the first 4 races, buttons had one crap pitstop, Lewis had bad pitstops and poor strategy calls in all 4 races.

#345 MP422

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:01

I don't those other people have being watching the first 4 races, buttons had one crap pitstop, Lewis had bad pitstops and poor strategy calls in all 4 races.


Shhh.... Nobody is supposed to know that !! :lol:

#346 TallyHo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:23

I don't those other people have being watching the first 4 races, buttons had one crap pitstop, Lewis had bad pitstops and poor strategy calls in all 4 races.

Yes Hamilton has had some poor pitstops, but i personally believe that he hasn't lost as many points as some here would lead us to believe.

Here's my opinion race by race that i posted on another thread that i believe belongs in this one.

Melbourne - Button was just brilliant come race day, he just had superior pace on that particular weekend, even Vettel said that he was untouchable. Ham might have grabbed 2nd, but McLaren didn't have Mystic Meg present to predict the safety car. Just racing i'm afraid.

Malaysia - Yes the two botched pitstops lost him valuable seconds, but once the track started to dry out Hamilton just didn't have any pace. He didn't even put a dent on Perez and Alonso's lead, they were both very quick in those conditions so even if he had top notch pitstops, 3rd was the best he could have achieved in my opinion. Infact i'd say those dodgy pitstops saved him the embarrassment of being overtaken by Perez and Alonso.

China - Unfortunate Gearbox penalty, but that's racing, Better to fix the problem and take a grid penalty than have a DNF, so not really an error by McLaren as such. No botched pitstops during this race either. Infact he had a few excellent ones, one of which got him infront of Kimi.

Bahrain - Now this race is where i believe he lost a few points through botched pitstops. In saying that though i believe the best he could have finished was 5th, with the poor race pace and rear tyre deg of both macs.

I also believe Button has been terribly unfortunate with his two non point scoring races. In Malaysia very un Button like collision but definitely his fault, but still unlucky. Also in the closing laps of Bahrain a piece of Rosbergs broken exhaust gave him a puncture. So both have been unlucky.


#347 velgajski1

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:32

Yes Hamilton has had some poor pitstops, but i personally believe that he hasn't lost as many points as some here would lead us to believe.

Here's my opinion race by race that i posted on another thread that i believe belongs in this one.

Melbourne - Button was just brilliant come race day, he just had superior pace on that particular weekend, even Vettel said that he was untouchable. Ham might have grabbed 2nd, but McLaren didn't have Mystic Meg present to predict the safety car. Just racing i'm afraid.

Malaysia - Yes the two botched pitstops lost him valuable seconds, but once the track started to dry out Hamilton just didn't have any pace. He didn't even put a dent on Perez and Alonso's lead, they were both very quick in those conditions so even if he had top notch pitstops, 3rd was the best he could have achieved in my opinion. Infact i'd say those dodgy pitstops saved him the embarrassment of being overtaken by Perez and Alonso.

China - Unfortunate Gearbox penalty, but that's racing, Better to fix the problem and take a grid penalty than have a DNF, so not really an error by McLaren as such. No botched pitstops during this race either. Infact he had a few excellent ones, one of which got him infront of Kimi.

Bahrain - Now this race is where i believe he lost a few points through botched pitstops. In saying that though i believe the best he could have finished was 5th, with the poor race pace and rear tyre deg of both macs.

I also believe Button has been terribly unfortunate with his two non point scoring races. In Malaysia very un Button like collision but definitely his fault, but still unlucky. Also in the closing laps of Bahrain a piece of Rosbergs broken exhaust gave him a puncture. So both have been unlucky.


Disagree about Malaysia and Bahrain, he could have grabbed 2nd in Malaysia I believe or even win it, but lets take 2nd place as conservative approximation. On drying track its not so easy to overtake, you need to remember that, and he wasn't much slower than Perez and Alonso, IIRC he was fastest on track except for those two.

In Bahrain 4th place was quite possible and realistic.

So...
Australia - 3pts
Malaysia - 3pts
Bahrain - 8 pts

Total: 14pts

Lewis Hamilton in 2010. lost some 25 points through his own mistakes and yet some people are quite eager to blame him for not winning 2010. If we scale 14 points per 4 races up, it turns McLaren mistakes might potentially cost Lewis 70pts in this season. Even if we take your ultraconservative approximation of 9pts and scale it up, its still 45 points over course of a season - almost double of what Lewis himself lost in 2010.

All in all, it clearly shows that if McLaren continues with mistakes like that they will cost Lewis Hamilton WDC or maybe even a chance to remain in WDC race until the end of season.

Edited by velgajski1, 06 May 2012 - 07:34.


#348 mlsnoopy

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:55

Are you demanding the team be perfect? Or is this going to turn into a predicatble squabble over Hamilton's mistakes and the teams mistakes, with bot sides of the arguement unable to accept that neither are error free?

Championships are won and lost over a season. McLaren's less than efficient pit stops have so far arguably cost both drivers points.


Well when you look at Button's races I can list you plenty of examples where the team helped Button where the team got him a good reasult, where as I can't think of a race where strategy helped Hamilton. The point that I0m trying to make is that if Hamilton got some of Button decisions in 2010 he would be the WDC.

#349 TallyHo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:29

Disagree about Malaysia and Bahrain, he could have grabbed 2nd in Malaysia I believe or even win it, but lets take 2nd place as conservative approximation. On drying track its not so easy to overtake, you need to remember that, and he wasn't much slower than Perez and Alonso, IIRC he was fastest on track except for those two.

In Bahrain 4th place was quite possible and realistic.

So...
Australia - 3pts
Malaysia - 3pts
Bahrain - 8 pts

Total: 14pts

Lewis Hamilton in 2010. lost some 25 points through his own mistakes and yet some people are quite eager to blame him for not winning 2010. If we scale 14 points per 4 races up, it turns McLaren mistakes might potentially cost Lewis 70pts in this season. Even if we take your ultraconservative approximation of 9pts and scale it up, its still 45 points over course of a season - almost double of what Lewis himself lost in 2010.

All in all, it clearly shows that if McLaren continues with mistakes like that they will cost Lewis Hamilton WDC or maybe even a chance to remain in WDC race until the end of season.


I disagree.

Australia - I would lay most of the blame on Hamilton for losing 2nd. If he had've been faster in the 1st stint, and not 4 secs behind Button, he would have come out infront of Perez. Which would also have put him infront of Vettel come his 2nd stop. 0 points from me for Australia.

Malaysia - Hamilton finished 15 seconds behind Alonso. He lost 8 seconds in the pits http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/ 0 points

Bahrain - Hamilton finished 20 seconds behind 4th place man Webber and Lost 13.7 in the pits. I also understand this doesn't take into account traffic, but my opinion of Hamiltons possible best finish in Bahrain being 5th seems to be shared http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/ 6 points.

Overall in ny opinion he's lost 6 points due to McLarens botched pit stops and strategies.

#350 GlenP

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:52

I disagree.

Australia - I would lay most of the blame on Hamilton for losing 2nd. If he had've been faster in the 1st stint, and not 4 secs behind Button, he would have come out infront of Perez. Which would also have put him infront of Vettel come his 2nd stop. 0 points from me for Australia.

Malaysia - Hamilton finished 15 seconds behind Alonso. He lost 8 seconds in the pits http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/ 0 points

Bahrain - Hamilton finished 20 seconds behind 4th place man Webber and Lost 13.7 in the pits. I also understand this doesn't take into account traffic, but my opinion of Hamiltons possible best finish in Bahrain being 5th seems to be shared http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/ 6 points.

Overall in ny opinion he's lost 6 points due to McLarens botched pit stops and strategies.

You come in here, with your well reasoned explanations. You madman!

I reckon that sounds pretty much spot on, so that's two of us madmen.

Add to your wise words the fact that it's four races only - that's not any kind of sample! For all anyone knows the luck will be entirely on the other side for the next four races - although of course when it is it won't be luck!