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The way it was...pre playmat circuits

Started by Doug Nye , Apr 22 2012 21:59

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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:59

By coincidence I found this today - the complete antithesis of the Bahrain playmat, where running off circuit seemed such a cheap and ready option....

Photo: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 April 2012 - 22:03.

#2 jj2728

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:05

One of my favorites. Thanks Doug and yes you could not be more correct.
1970 if I'm not mistaken?

Edited by jj2728, 22 April 2012 - 22:07.

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:20

Yes - 1970 French GP at Clermont-Ferrand - Denny Hulme's McLaren - number 19 - on its way to fourth place.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 April 2012 - 22:21.

#4 elansprint72

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:24

The first time I went to Le Mans my longest lens was 135mm; it was the right tool for the job. Two years ago 300mm was too short. This year 500mm will be my "standard". Stand well back, folks, Motor Racing IS Dangerous.

Doug; I don't recognise that particular rock-face but Longridge had something very similar and, amazingly the drivers exercised some level of skill to keep within the bounds of sensibility.

One of the things which has turned me off F1 racing is the invulnerablity factor- drive like a complete **** and you may get a little scratch, so bang and bash, on we go, straight to the bank.

#5 LittleChris

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:26

Proper track, photo taken at the right hand hairpin after the Petit Pont left hander if I'm not mistaken.

#6 arttidesco

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:39

Barry showed me his scalectrix version of this track built in his dinning/living room on Skype the other day, needless to say he had not included the impediments to off track excursions :rolleyes:

#7 JacnGille

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 00:41

Great shot!

#8 Marc Sproule

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:19

#9 Peter Darley

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:09

Yes - 1970 French GP at Clermont-Ferrand - Denny Hulme's McLaren - number 19 - on its way to fourth place.

DCN

Michael Tee nearest the track with two cameras'

#10 Wirra

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:43

Back in days when it actually was ROAD racing.

...

#11 john winfield

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:43

By coincidence I found this today - the complete antithesis of the Bahrain playmat, where running off circuit seemed such a cheap and ready option....

Photo: The GP Library

DCN

What a lovely photo! I believe those shrubs at the bottom of the rock face were designed to absorb energy on impact.
Charade is a beautiful spot up in the hills above Royat and Clermont. I always assumed that the dark, brooding Cathedral (featured in many photos as cars swoop through a left-hander) was in need of a clean. I hadn't realised that, being built from volcanic rock, that's how it's meant to be.
My wife was working in Clermont-F last month. Sadly, and predictably, no-one she met believed that there had ever been a Grand Prix up in the hills.

Back to the photo. Denny Hulme as you say, Henri Pescarolo's Matra at the front? Who's that in the middle; Jack Brabham?

Edited by john winfield, 23 April 2012 - 07:45.

#12 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:55

Back to the photo. Denny Hulme as you say, Henri Pescarolo's Matra at the front? Who's that in the middle; Jack Brabham?

Brabham indeed. Pescarolo's severely understeering Matra held up the following group of Brabham, Hulme and Peterson for quite a few laps, leading to much fist shaking from his pursuers.

#13 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:04

Wirra: great photo! But what, where, when... ?

#14 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:19

They ran in this order from laps 6 to 13, Brabham getting past Pesca on lap 14 & Denny following him on lap 15. They finished the race in that order with only Rindt and Amon ahead of them.

#15 Wirra

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:46

Wirra: great photo! But what, where, when... ?

Rob - As with any posted quote just click on the little red arrow and it will take you to the source.

#16 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:46

Pescarolo's severely understeering Matra ...

Looks like oversteer in the picture.

#17 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:02

Thanks, Wirra.

#18 E1pix

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:08

Rob - As with any posted quote just click on the little red arrow and it will take you to the source.

Thanks for that tip, Wirra, I never knew that. :eek:

Awesome photo... that's one of the finest period images I've seen anywhere.

I can't recall ever seeing any "road race car" with "dirt sidewalls!"

Edited by E1pix, 23 April 2012 - 09:10.

#19 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:14

And an incredibly silly one that the series visited only once......

St. Felicien

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Marc I'm intrigued, having never heard of the place before - please tell us more - Why was it so silly for instance?

#20 Alfie

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:21

I had wondered how to bring the issue of Nico Rosberg's "acquitttal" by the stewards following his acceptable driving - putting both Hamilton and Alonso off the circuit - into the conversation....

Try it here Nico and see if it is still acceptable?

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:32

I had wondered how to bring the issue of Nico Rosberg's "acquitttal" by the stewards following his acceptable driving - putting both Hamilton and Alonso off the circuit - into the conversation....

... not to mention his complaint over the radio that Hamilton had passed him while off the course! My immediate reaction was "Well who the **** put him there in the first place, Nico?"

#22 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:36

I had wondered how to bring the issue of Nico Rosberg's "acquitttal" by the stewards following his acceptable driving - putting both Hamilton and Alonso off the circuit - into the conversation....

Try it here Nico and see if it is still acceptable?

Good point and a (the?) prime reason so many modern drivers act like total ar**s out on track....

#23 NPP

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:43

... not to mention his complaint over the radio that Hamilton had passed him while off the course! My immediate reaction was "Well who the **** put him there in the first place, Nico?"

mine too!

#24 Alfie

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 15:09

.. not to mention his complaint over the radio that Hamilton had passed him while off the course! My immediate reaction was "Well who the **** put him there in the first place, Nico?"

Perfect!

#25 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:15

I had wondered how to bring the issue of Nico Rosberg's "acquitttal" by the stewards following his acceptable driving - putting both Hamilton and Alonso off the circuit - into the conversation....

Try it here Nico and see if it is still acceptable?

This is largely why I posted the photograph. :smoking:

DCN

#26 E1pix

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:22

... not to mention his complaint over the radio that Hamilton had passed him while off the course! My immediate reaction was "Well who the **** put him there in the first place, Nico?"

Right!

Nico changed his image to millions yesterday...

#27 cheesy poofs

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:01

Marc I'm intrigued, having never heard of the place before - please tell us more - Why was it so silly for instance?

St-Félicien was a very short race track located roughly 6 hours north of Montréal, Canada.
Here's some info: http://www.autocours...le=circuit.html

#28 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:16

This is largely why I posted the photograph.

DCN

Great picture, although I can't believe I am the only one to notice the extraordinary similarity to a certain defunct quarry circuit in Lancashire... :lol:

In the meantime, an absolutely withering piece by Simon Barnes in today's Times on Bahrain (subscription required, regrettably)...

Edited by MCS, 23 April 2012 - 21:53.

#29 Bill Becketts

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:27

Back in days when it actually was ROAD racing.

He looks like he's working hard there, a time when men were men and..... :up:

Lovely picture I have to say.

#30 john winfield

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:40

For years I had thought that Helmut Marko's injury at Clermont-Ferrand in 1972 was the end of the Charade circuit's hopes in staging further French Grand Prix, but leafing through a 1975 Motoring News I read that Paul Ricard only hosted the GP that year because C-F hadn't completed the necessary alterations. I wonder whether a 1975 GP in the Auvergne was ever a realistic proposition.

What surprised me even more was something I found in Grand Prix 70, a New English Library mag of variable quality. Its 1970 season preview included the Nurburging (fair enough, the Hockenheim change came quite late I think) but, rather than C-F, suggested the French GP would take place at Albi! Never heard of 1970 GP plans for Albi before and, if they were realistic, presumably the creation of Paul Ricard finished off that particular dream.

Edited by john winfield, 23 April 2012 - 21:42.

#31 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:51

In the meantime, an absolutely withering piece by Simon Barnes in today's Times on Bahrain (subscription required, regrettably)...

It should be on NewsBank for free tomorrow.;)

Edited by Vitesse2, 23 April 2012 - 21:52.

#32 LittleChris

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 22:35

What surprised me even more was something I found in Grand Prix 70, a New English Library mag of variable quality. Its 1970 season preview included the Nurburging (fair enough, the Hockenheim change came quite late I think) but, rather than C-F, suggested the French GP would take place at Albi! Never heard of 1970 GP plans for Albi before and, if they were realistic, presumably the creation of Paul Ricard finished off that particular dream.

I've also read this somewhere and given that the French Grand Prix didn't really seem to settle anywhere permanent toward the end of the 60's, I wonder if there was an agreement within France whereby various regions took turns to host it and it was supposed to be the turn of the South West in 1970. Given the lack of circuits there at the time I think the Le Sequestre airfield circuit was probably seen as okay for F2 but too small for F1 cars, whereas a reincarnation of Les Planques for 1970 would've been an entirely different matter if a total pipedream :clap:

List of locations

1966 Reims ( North East )
1967 Le Mans Bugatti ( West )
1968 Rouen Les Essarts (North )
1969 Clermont Ferrand ( Centre )
1970 Albi ( South West ) - later replaced by CF
1971 Le Castellet (South East )
1972 Clermont Ferrand ( Centre )
1973 Le Castellet ( South East )
1974 Dijon-Prenois (East )

#33 Rob G

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 23:08

What surprised me even more was something I found in Grand Prix 70, a New English Library mag of variable quality. Its 1970 season preview included the Nurburging (fair enough, the Hockenheim change came quite late I think) but, rather than C-F, suggested the French GP would take place at Albi! Never heard of 1970 GP plans for Albi before and, if they were realistic, presumably the creation of Paul Ricard finished off that particular dream.

Mike Lang, in his book Grand Prix! Volume 2, mentions this as well, stating that it was switched back to C-F due to "financial difficulties".

#34 cheesy poofs

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 23:32

1965 French GP at Clermont-Ferrand

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

#35 E1pix

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 23:57

1965 French GP at Clermont-Ferrand
http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Fantastic, Thank You! :up:

I've known of Clermont-Ferrand my whole life, but had no idea this is what it was like. WOW!

#36 cheesy poofs

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 00:44

I know it's just a SIM, but it's a very good idea of a full lap of the old track.

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

#37 JacnGille

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 00:46

I've known of Clermont-Ferrand my whole life, but had no idea this is what it was like. WOW!

Put a few race sims on your computer and you'll learn a lot!

Cheesy beat me to it! :cool:

Edited by JacnGille, 24 April 2012 - 00:52.

#38 PCC

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:04

I always assumed that the dark, brooding Cathedral (featured in many photos as cars swoop through a left-hander) was in need of a clean. I hadn't realised that, being built from volcanic rock, that's how it's meant to be.

Actually, the normal practice during the Middle Ages was to cover the masonry with whitewash. The dark stone was probably never seen until relatively modern times.

#39 Wirra

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:44

This is largely why I posted the photograph.

DCN

I’m afraid I missed the subliminal message… too deep for me!

However, as the thread has gone down this path I’m going to state I felt Hamilton and Alonso were in the wrong as Rosberg suggested.

Anyone here who has driven in an ‘identical performance’ category will know that covering the inside line is always paramount, even when exiting the corner onto a straight. I only watched the TV coverage (on-board from Hamilton and Alonso would have been better) but IMO Rosberg made the one move he was allowed but the two desperados wouldn’t concede they had been legitimately outmaneuvered and ran extra wide, something that couldn’t be done on non-playmat tracks - see Doug’s original photo. I also think of Villeneuve leading all those cars in Spain ’81.

I think the officials were right and I’d give Hamilton and Alonso a 5 grid penalty for the next race.

#40 E1pix

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:56

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Put a few race sims on your computer and you'll learn a lot!

Cheesy beat me to it!

What a layout, spectacular. Nice sim job, too, except for these guys never seem to use consultants that actually know the lines. Nice DFV sound, though.

Very cool, Cheesy, thanks again. :up:

#41 Marc Sproule

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:41

St-Félicien was a very short race track located roughly 6 hours north of Montréal, Canada.
Here's some info: http://www.autocours...le=circuit.html

That piece didn't begin to do justice about how mickey mouse that place was. Interesting too that it's listed as 1.25 miles in length. The first corner was part of the oval there and that's where most of crashing took place.

When we were there in '77 it was 1 mile in length, meaning 100 laps for the hundred-miler. Gilles won, lapping the field save Tom Gloy.

There were LOTS of crashes that weekend. The fiberglass repair guys made some serious cash.

This is the first of Rosberg's two shunts. The second, in the race, rung his bell pretty solidly.

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Rahal biting the concrete wall.....

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Rahal and Gilles, not crashing...

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Pironi and Gilles, not crashing...

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

A bunch of them in the first turn, none of them crashing......

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

Gilles, Prioni and Holmes....check out the ultra-safe station for the flagger....

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

And repeating one I posted above, check out how close Gilles came to leaving the ballpark....

http://www.flickr.co...157623186773769

I have a lot more "action" from that weekend that hasn't been scanned. When it gets posted I'll revisit this thread.

#42 john winfield

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:45

Actually, the normal practice during the Middle Ages was to cover the masonry with whitewash. The dark stone was probably never seen until relatively modern times.

Peter,
That's interesting, I hadn't realised. I can imagine smaller churches being whitewashed in the Middle Ages but was it also the case for soaring cathedrals like, for example, Reims, Rouen and Clermont Ferrand? Presumably the wooden scaffolding used in construction could be used for the first whitewashing but would they bother again? What a job!

#43 Stephen W

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:47

Actually, the normal practice during the Middle Ages was to cover the masonry with whitewash. The dark stone was probably never seen until relatively modern times.

Moving the concept onto the race track - on the Isle of Man I noticed on one section of the TT course that there was a rock face on the left hand side of the road. Every so often certain areas were painted white. I asked why? Apparently it is so the riders can identify the areas where the rock face protrudes over the edge of the track and they can then move their head out of the way! Several riders get back at the end of the race with scratches on their helmets made when they didn't move their heads quickly enough and they clipped the rock!

The old race track idea of putting earth banks next to the track to discourage cutting corners or running off the track is alive and well on hillclimb courses up and down the country.

:wave:

#44 Hamish Robson

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:38

Moving the concept onto the race track - on the Isle of Man I noticed on one section of the TT course that there was a rock face on the left hand side of the road. Every so often certain areas were painted white. I asked why? Apparently it is so the riders can identify the areas where the rock face protrudes over the edge of the track and they can then move their head out of the way! Several riders get back at the end of the race with scratches on their helmets made when they didn't move their heads quickly enough and they clipped the rock!

The first commentary post on the TT Mountain course is at a left-hander called Glen Helen, which has an exposed dry-stone wall on the inside. I have watched there several times and the riders regularly lift their head so as to hug the apex as closely as possible. I even saw one catch his shoulder on the wall and rip off a sew-on patch...

#45 john winfield

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:22

The first commentary post on the TT Mountain course is at a left-hander called Glen Helen, which has an exposed dry-stone wall on the inside. I have watched there several times and the riders regularly lift their head so as to hug the apex as closely as possible. I even saw one catch his shoulder on the wall and rip off a sew-on patch...

Did this rider take it a little too tight?

http://sideburnmag.b.../hooked-up.html

#46 PCC

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:09

Peter,
That's interesting, I hadn't realised. I can imagine smaller churches being whitewashed in the Middle Ages but was it also the case for soaring cathedrals like, for example, Reims, Rouen and Clermont Ferrand? Presumably the wooden scaffolding used in construction could be used for the first whitewashing but would they bother again? What a job!

John, have a look at this video. The animation shows (about 2 minutes in) Amiens Cathedral as a gleaming white mass, referred to by the narrator as a "massive chalk bulk'. That narrator is Stephen Murray of Columbia University, one of the leading experts on French Gothic.

There is also a twelfth-century textual reference to Europe's donning of a 'white mantle of churches', written by a monk who seems to be describing the buildings fairly literally.

Would they bother re-whitewashing again and again? Good question - the fact that there are no longer any whitewashed churches certainly shows that at some point, they gave up. That said, if you go to Castle Acre Priory (I think it's Castle Acre, I'm going by memory here), the west façade still has a few traces of whitewash of an undetermined date.You can actually smear it with your fingers.

Sorry to stray OT! But it's something I find rather interesting...

#47 retriever

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:39

Thank you Mr Nye for posting such a wonderful image. Somehow it just would not be the same in colour.

A real pity about the 'topic drift'.

#48 ryan86

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:55

I was kinda tempted to give Rosberg the benefit of the doubt, at least in the Hamilton case, because I felt he moved towards the extreme edge of the track and Hamilton followed.

I was thinking there though whilst eating my dinner, how many of this field have lost a fellow competitor during a meeting? Schumacher is the obvious one, with Senna and Ratzenberger, but without knowledge of the ins and outs of how each one of them got to this level, I don't know about the others and whilst Schumacher's behaviour would in someways seem to disprove this, is there is a feeling of invicibility amongst the grid in that they've not seen first hand the potential results of their actions. One could say they shouldn't need to, but usually one learns by their own mistakes and not others.

#49 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:49

That piece didn't begin to do justice about how mickey mouse that place was. Interesting too that it's listed as 1.25 miles in length. The first corner was part of the oval there and that's where most of crashing took place.

When we were there in '77 it was 1 mile in length, meaning 100 laps for the hundred-miler. Gilles won, lapping the field save Tom Gloy.

There were LOTS of crashes that weekend. The fiberglass repair guys made some serious cash.

This is the first of Rosberg's two shunts. The second, in the race, rung his bell pretty solidly.

I have a lot more "action" from that weekend that hasn't been scanned. When it gets posted I'll revisit this thread.

This is great stuff Marc. The place looks a lot like Adelaide International in it's com,bination of oval, drag strip and road course.

Some wonderful photos on your Flickr album, I ran through them and the one of Gilles airbourne at Quebec City is fantastic! :up:

#50 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:44

These simulations get more impressive all the time. When anyone's ready to include a Formula B race at Montgomery Industrial Terminal, just let me know; I'll be happy to help

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The way it was...pre playmat circuits

#1 Doug Nye

#2 jj2728

#3 Doug Nye

#4 elansprint72

#5 LittleChris

#6 arttidesco

#7 JacnGille

#8 Marc Sproule

#9 Peter Darley

#10 Wirra

#11 john winfield

#12 Tim Murray

#13 Rob Semmeling

#14 Giraffe

#15 Wirra

#16 Roger Clark

#17 Rob Semmeling

#18 E1pix

#19 simonlewisbooks

#20 Alfie

#21 Vitesse2

#22 simonlewisbooks

#23 NPP

#24 Alfie

#25 Doug Nye

#26 E1pix

#27 cheesy poofs

#28 MCS

#29 Bill Becketts

#30 john winfield

#31 Vitesse2

#32 LittleChris

#33 Rob G

#34 cheesy poofs

#35 E1pix

#36 cheesy poofs

#37 JacnGille

#38 PCC

#39 Wirra

#40 E1pix

#41 Marc Sproule

#42 john winfield

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