The way it was...pre playmat circuits
#51
Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:18
...here are some Formula Ford cars at Longridge circa 1978. Drivers did wallop the flint from time to time, most notably John Ravenscroft (who crashed the Token F1 car during a sprint event early in '77).
Advertisement
#52
Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:23
Edited by Simon Arron, 25 April 2012 - 17:24.
#53
Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:56
'Nuff saidAnd here, by way of contextual contrast, is a snap of Felipe Massa from Bahrain in 2009...
#54
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:05
And here, by way of contextual contrast, is a snap of Felipe Massa from Bahrain in 2009...
Oh, my gosh, that's awful! Now I understand that playmat reference!
#55
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:14
But look at all those wide open sight lines, it's great for spectators! Hello? Hello? Spectators?Oh, my gosh, that's awful! Now I understand that playmat reference!
#56
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:22
They are there, but hiding in slit trenches wearing gas masks.But look at all those wide open sight lines, it's great for spectators! Hello? Hello? Spectators?
And there is definitely a rock face there in the background at Bahrain so no great changes from yesteryear.
#57
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:31
It's an LAT Geoff Goddard original, I've just taken it down from my office wall to scan it, 1972 French GP, Clermont-Ferrand - Denny ‘The Bear' in a McLaren M19C at one of Geoff's favourite vantage points. Not many modern Formula 1 corners have a drain cover right on the apex, and Denny is aiming straight for it here, on his way to seventh place. I expect you're all admiring the workmanship of Mr Hulme's seat, which I made for him when I was at Specialised Mouldings. I'm sure I've mentioned that before on here, but I do like to mention the fact whenever an opportunity arises.
#58
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:48
#59
Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:55
Isn't that the same corner?
Just possible I suppose, but since each lap there was just over 5 miles, Geoff would have had quite a few to choose from.
Advertisement
#60
Posted 25 April 2012 - 20:02
#61
Posted 25 April 2012 - 22:49
Edited by jj2728, 25 April 2012 - 22:49.
#62
Posted 25 April 2012 - 22:57
Isn't that the same corner?
I think it is. See below at 58 secs and 1min 23 secs but enjoy all of it .
http://www.dailymoti...rix-france_news
To me the give away is the manhole cover bang on the apex.
#63
Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:02
That was the very first thing that sprang to mind as I looked at that pic.I expect you're all admiring the workmanship of Mr Hulme's seat, which I made for him when I was at Specialised Mouldings. I'm sure I've mentioned that before on here, but I do like to mention the fact whenever an opportunity arises.
#64
Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:03
Thank you for the kind words.
I wish I didn't have to work in the real world as I still have over 70k racing images to go through, scan and post the good ones. I love seeing how fortunate I was to have been shooting racing when I was.
Here are all my sets:
http://www.flickr.co...81980@N03/sets/
#65
Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:12
This is fairly relevant to Doug's original post, same driver Denny Hulme, what a Man, same track, but two years later.
It's an LAT Geoff Goddard original, I've just taken it down from my office wall to scan it, 1972 French GP, Clermont-Ferrand - Denny ‘The Bear' in a McLaren M19C at one of Geoff's favourite vantage points...
Minor amendment here I think - Geoff never took pictures for LAT - different outfit, he was the ferociously independent solo craftsman, LAT's snappers were 'industry'...darned good though most of them proved to be. Geoff passed away six years ago, April 24...day before yesterday. What a lot he left us.
DCN
#66
Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:21
Minor amendment here I think - Geoff never took pictures for LAT - different outfit, he was the ferociously independent solo craftsman, LAT's snappers were 'industry'...darned good though most of them proved to be. Geoff passed away six years ago, April 24...day before yesterday. What a lot he left us.
DCN
Thanks for that correction, there is a Geoff Goddard stamp on the back, but I'd made the erroneous LAT connection because I bought it not long after Geoff's demise from someone called Doug Nye of Farnham, I hadn't realised you were moonlighting at the time. Whoever owns the copyright though, it's a great photo of one of my all-time racing heroes, a favourite image from my humble collection.
#67
Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:29
Great picture of a great underrated driver, Kayemod. He looks so stylish in that posture exactly because of the seat...
Behind every great man...
Tim's point about Denny's drive in that race is fully justified, second on the grid, and fighting back to seventh from eleventh after having to pit following a puncture. Because he didn't make a fuss, just got on with the job, I've long felt that Denny never really got the credit he deserved, you could never discount him no matter what he was driving, yet when WDCs are discussed, how often does his name crop up? One of his most memorable drives was his Anderstorp victory in 1973, delayed at the start from the third row of the grid, Denny flicked off his DFV's rev limiter and just got his head down. Those behind him at the finish included Ronnie Peterson in a Lotus 72, François Cevert, Carlos Reuteman, and the Jackies Stewart and Ickx, but how often does someone like Nigel Roebuck include that in one of his "Greatest-ever Wins" pieces? Denny was a modest man though, following a win like that, he'd probably have given all the credit to his seat...
#68
Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:51
I think you mean "Beneath..."Behind every great man...
I remember that around 1972, my mother silk-screened a T-shirt for me with an image of Denny and the words "Denny for King" on it. I wore it to the Canadian GP and actually got him to sign it. He laughed and seemed genuinely sheepish about it. Lovely guy. Unbelievably, I lost that shirt decades ago.
#69
Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:45
Errr - I worked for 'Motor Sport' and 'Motoring News' for six months in 1968, but I've never ever worked for LAT...I hadn't realised you were moonlighting at the time.
DCN
#70
Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:54
Behind every great man...
Tim's point about Denny's drive in that race is fully justified, second on the grid, and fighting back to seventh from eleventh after having to pit following a puncture. Because he didn't make a fuss, just got on with the job, I've long felt that Denny never really got the credit he deserved, you could never discount him no matter what he was driving, yet when WDCs are discussed, how often does his name crop up? One of his most memorable drives was his Anderstorp victory in 1973, delayed at the start from the third row of the grid, Denny flicked off his DFV's rev limiter and just got his head down. Those behind him at the finish included Ronnie Peterson in a Lotus 72, François Cevert, Carlos Reuteman, and the Jackies Stewart and Ickx, but how often does someone like Nigel Roebuck include that in one of his "Greatest-ever Wins" pieces? Denny was a modest man though, following a win like that, he'd probably have given all the credit to his seat...
Here you go Rob, enjoy ( I'm still gutted 39 years later about Ronnies puncture though !)
#71
Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:02
Here you go Rob, enjoy ( I'm still gutted 39 years later about Ronnies puncture though !)
#72
Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:59
Fantastic Race! Beautiful cars! And the drivers... aren't brats!Here you go Rob, enjoy ( I'm still gutted 39 years later about Ronnies puncture though !)
#73
Posted 27 April 2012 - 00:18
Absolutely... Love it!Fantastic Race! Beautiful cars! And the drivers... aren't brats!
#74
Posted 02 May 2012 - 21:58
No wonder Rindt got motion sickness in his full-face helmet in 1970.
I got motion sickness just watching the replay!
#75
Posted 02 May 2012 - 22:35
Thanks, Cheesy, for that great rfactor lap.
No wonder Rindt got motion sickness in his full-face helmet in 1970.
I got motion sickness just watching the replay!
And here's the real thing, though only the bits that remain as public road now that the short track exists ( though I understand that his is under threat from some very vocal nearby residents and ambitious politicians )
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
#76
Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:30
And here's the real thing, though only the bits that remain as public road now that the short track exists ( though I understand that his is under threat from some very vocal nearby residents and ambitious politicians )
I was told recently by a regular marshal at the track that the rumours of it's demise are premature and that the circuit isn't in imminent danger.
Lets hope that continues to be the case. I drove round the original section several times back in 2005 and it's wonderful,although very little sign remains to indicate it's past (one bit of wall I think). Without the armco it' quite hard to envisage 1970s F1 cars in action on such a narrow and twisty bit of country road!
#77
Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:20
And here's the real thing, though only the bits that remain as public road now that the short track exists ( though I understand that his is under threat from some very vocal nearby residents and ambitious politicians )
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
A real Man's track, hardly surprising that Denny was so good around there. It's an impossible dichotomy isn't it? We can never have racing as it used to be, younger TNF members must get tired of older ones constantly telling them how things used to be so different, and how much better racing was, but it's true isn't it? It's an impossible dream in this 'elf and safety' age, none of us want drivers to be killed, or even injured, but today's cars wouldn't be anything like as dangerous to race on those old tree-lined circuits as the relatively flimsy 60s & 70s cars, you wouldn't have to line the entire track with Armco. Just think of the crash that Robert Kubica walker away from in Canada a few years back, but like I said, an impossible dream. The only problem is that you'd have to bring back 70s driving standards as well, today's indisciplined bunch would have problems with that.
#78
Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:41
A real Man's track, hardly surprising that Denny was so good around there. It's an impossible dichotomy isn't it? We can never have racing as it used to be, younger TNF members must get tired of older ones constantly telling them how things used to be so different, and how much better racing was, but it's true isn't it? It's an impossible dream in this 'elf and safety' age, none of us want drivers to be killed, or even injured, but today's cars wouldn't be anything like as dangerous to race on those old tree-lined circuits as the relatively flimsy 60s & 70s cars, you wouldn't have to line the entire track with Armco. Just think of the crash that Robert Kubica walker away from in Canada a few years back, but like I said, an impossible dream. The only problem is that you'd have to bring back 70s driving standards as well, today's indisciplined bunch would have problems with that.
Yep, the law of diminishing returns as applied to the perception of safety - the more 'safety' you have the more you seem to need!
Same thing with noise. Very little runs without silencers nowadays but the perception of a 'noisy sport' is probably higher than it ever was, with about 10% of the previous levels.
#79
Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:13
I was told recently by a regular marshal at the track that the rumours of it's demise are premature and that the circuit isn't in imminent danger.
Lets hope that continues to be the case. I drove round the original section several times back in 2005 and it's wonderful,although very little sign remains to indicate it's past (one bit of wall I think). Without the armco it' quite hard to envisage 1970s F1 cars in action on such a narrow and twisty bit of country road!
Simon, my wife was working in Clermont last month and she was told (not sure by whom - a local academic I think) that the circuit is under threat and may be shut.
I loved the old circuit, camped there in the hills back in 1978, and had a few laps in our Renault 5. We were on the way back from the Grand Prix at Paul Ricard, which hardly compared. We knew the CF track layout fairly well and I don't recall much sign even then of its past. Startline grandstands and pits were all there I think. Well they were in 1989 when I nearly wiped out the in-laws, trying to take a racing line through the final section. Couldn't quite match Amon's time.
Advertisement
#80
Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:53
DCN
#81
Posted 03 May 2012 - 13:37
As I understand it, it was at Gravenoire. If you look at the YouTube link I posted earlier it is where the Route de Gravenoire joins the track - 1 min 40 sec in. I think the bank that Ivor hit was the one just behind the signpost.
Chris
#82
Posted 03 May 2012 - 13:43
Bueb, on the other hand, overshot the fast Gravenoire right-hander – a turn with multiple apexes at the lowest point of the circuit ...
#83
Posted 03 May 2012 - 19:35
DCN
#84
Posted 03 May 2012 - 21:26
Behind every great man...
Tim's point about Denny's drive in that race is fully justified, second on the grid, and fighting back to seventh from eleventh after having to pit following a puncture. Because he didn't make a fuss, just got on with the job, I've long felt that Denny never really got the credit he deserved, you could never discount him no matter what he was driving, yet when WDCs are discussed, how often does his name crop up? One of his most memorable drives was his Anderstorp victory in 1973, delayed at the start from the third row of the grid, Denny flicked off his DFV's rev limiter and just got his head down. Those behind him at the finish included Ronnie Peterson in a Lotus 72, François Cevert, Carlos Reuteman, and the Jackies Stewart and Ickx, but how often does someone like Nigel Roebuck include that in one of his "Greatest-ever Wins" pieces? Denny was a modest man though, following a win like that, he'd probably have given all the credit to his seat...
Am I dreaming (Nobody's mentionioned it recently) but I seem to remember that was the race where Denny lost most of his gears, was heading for the pits, but decided to stay out (Left with 4th or 5th Gear) and won the race...the first and last win for an "Automatic" Formula 1 Car!!!
#85
Posted 03 May 2012 - 21:36
Following his day of testing at Mugello on Wednesday, Caterham’s Vitaly Petrov immediately hit out at the Italian circuit, claiming it is unsafe and does not match the standard of safety accustomed to modern-day Formula 1.
“I don't think we should have come here,” the Russian is quoted as saying by Autosport. “It is not safe or wide enough.
“If you lose it, the walls are so close and you will smash into the tyres. It is not for Formula 1 and if you lost the steering or the tyre pressure dropped, or whatever, then it will be a big crash.”
#86
Posted 03 May 2012 - 21:51
According to Pete Lyons in Autosport Denny was in the leading group till around half distance, when he took a load of sand in his airscoop thrown up by Oliver who was being lapped. This jammed his throttle slides open, so he had to control the engine using the ignition switch. He slackened off and headed for the pits. On the way the engine died completely on one of the tighter corners. In dropping the clutch and jiggling the throttle trying to get it going he succeeded in freeing the throttle slides and continued on his way, having lost around 15 seconds. As Rob says, he then turned off his rev limiter, took the bit between his teeth and pulled back to the leading group before going on to win when Peterson slowed with a puncture on the last lap. There's no mention of any problem with gears.Am I dreaming (Nobody's mentionioned it recently) but I seem to remember that was the race where Denny lost most of his gears, was heading for the pits, but decided to stay out (Left with 4th or 5th Gear) and won the race...the first and last win for an "Automatic" Formula 1 Car!!!
Edited by Tim Murray, 03 May 2012 - 22:06.
#87
Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:33
Unless the idea for the 2.4m Charade circuit came about at that time as well?
#88
Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:31
It might be for the best that C-F failed to complete "alterations" for 1975. Imagine the chicanes they would have had to install all the way round.
(That's how I feel, rather selfishly perhaps, about many circuits. I'm sorry to have lost Crystal Palace, Rouen, CF, the old Spa etc. but, if they were in use today, I imagine big run-offs, spectators kept well back, chicanes etc.. Oh, and the paddocks would be fenced off and the programmes identical, in size and content!) John
Unless the idea for the 2.4m Charade circuit came about at that time as well?
It looks as if the full 8km circuit was in use until 1988.
http://www.charade.f...storique02.html
Edited by john winfield, 04 May 2012 - 10:33.
#89
Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:32
“I don't think we should have come here,” the Russian is quoted as saying by Autosport. “It is not safe or wide enough.
“If you lose it, the walls are so close and you will smash into the tyres. It is not for Formula 1 and if you lost the steering or the tyre pressure dropped, or whatever, then it will be a big crash.”
And there, in a nutshell is the gist of this whole thread
I bet he prefers Herr Tilke's playmats.
#90
Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:09
Messrs Webber and Alonso raved about Mugello. Earlier this week, Mark reported via Twitter: "Did 10 dry laps today around Mugello, which is the same as doing 1000 laps around Abu Dhabi in terms of satisfaction."And there, in a nutshell is the gist of this whole thread
I bet he prefers Herr Tilke's playmats.
Some of them do still appreciate a proper circuit when they see it.
At Suzuka in 2009, somebody asked Kimi Räikkönen whether he thought the circuit was dangerous because assorted embryos (and Mark W, come to that) had hit things. "Of course not," said Kimi, in a rare outbreak of eloquence. "This is a dangerous sport and Suzuka is an old-style circuit. Newer tracks have asphalt run-offs and it makes no difference if you commit an error. Do that here and you’re going to hit the wall, but that’s how it should be: you get punished. It encourages you to be more precise.”
#91
Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:14
...At Suzuka in 2009, somebody asked Kimi Räikkönen whether he thought the circuit was dangerous because assorted embryos (and Mark W, come to that) had hit things. "Of course not," said Kimi, in a rare outbreak of eloquence. "This is a dangerous sport and Suzuka is an old-style circuit. Newer tracks have asphalt run-offs and it makes no difference if you commit an error. Do that here and you’re going to hit the wall, but that’s how it should be: you get punished. It encourages you to be more precise.”
Reminds me of the Tony Lanfranchi remark about Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, which was something along the lines of: If we had sharp spikes sticking out from the sleepers at the bottom of the hill nobody would crash there!
#92
Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:39
Having never previously driven an F1 car without all the electronic gizmos he found the experience ...challenging..
It's too dangerous!
He declared, and AUTOSPORT reported.
Something must be done to reduce the power!
These cars are now impossible to drive!
Because when he put his foot down he found, horror, the 3.5 litre V10 behind his shoulders could easily make the rear wheels spin!
A whole new world had presented itself and it wasn't to his liking.
Suffice to say his subsequent F1 career was short and forgettable.
What would Denny, or Innes, or Tazio have thought?
I know what I thought...
#93
Posted 04 May 2012 - 14:25
It's easy to sneer at Petrov, but perhaps you should consider that he is probably the only driver on the grid who has actually raced (and won) at Mugello - Euro F3000 in 2006 - so he might know something more than all his keyboard critics.And there, in a nutshell is the gist of this whole thread
I bet he prefers Herr Tilke's playmats.
One prize **** on RCF has even dubbed Petrov a coward. From what I have seen of the Russian in GP2 and F1, he looks if anything a bit too brave.
Edited by BRG, 04 May 2012 - 14:26.
#94
Posted 04 May 2012 - 16:11
#95
Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:01
Amen Brother!But good drivers still recognise that the art lies in relying on their skill to keep them safely on the black bit, not to feel free to push the boundaries, knowing that there is little or no penalty when the boundaries are exceeded. I think track design should encourage the art.
#96
Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:57
Interesting whether or not these will become the subject of nostalgia.
I’ve never looked up the definition of nostalgia but to me it implies a somewhat positive recollection & maybe a wish to return.
Remember the old Nivelles GP circuit in Belgium for example? Well, it is certainly discussed here from time to time but I doubt if many would wish to see its return from a racing point of view.
Similarly with many of the newer ‘megacircuits’, designed for big events rather than great motor races. Will there be any clamour for books about their history or Schumacher’s great drive at Bahrein or whatever. Time will tell.
And to be indulged in another little rant, if I may – what about the method of designing & choosing these circuits? Well, commercially it’s the obvious. The current hierarchy dictates what is good for us (or them, rather).
But the circuit designs themselves have been hi-jacked by certain organisations which deem themselves ‘experts’. Naming no names of course, there are architects who are necessary to plan & design whole complexes & mostly do a fine professional job. But why should track design be devolved & licensed to one person/organization? We are all capable all designing what would be an interesting circuit layout. Just copying corners from other circuits isn’t really clever & to be honest, I wouldn’t cross the road to see Alonso go through a copy of Eau Rouge/Raidillon in the desert, whereas I certainly would at Francorchamps. By & large, don’t the circuits we deem ‘classics’ stem from natural topography or pure chance, being laid out in the available area. Some circuits that didn’t work well faded away while the best ones still remain, albeit in emaciated forms sometimes.
I was very briefly involved in the design of a Middle Eastern circuit a few years ago, designed by a (non German) company. There are so many FIA rules governing aspects of run offs, barrier angles, corner radii etc, etc, that a lot of it just becomes a geometrical exercise with a committee of all & sundry thinking they’ve made another circuit that will go down in the annals of history. (Anals more likely...)
If I were a GP driver, I certainly wouldn’t swap one win at Monza or Spa or M-Carlo or the Ring or Suzuka or even Silverstone, for 10 at some of the circuits we see.
I would suggest that in 100 years time, Doug Nye & other illustrious writers will not be producing books about the great history & races of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix circuit....
#97
Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:17
I guess it all comes down to what you are used to and comfortable with. BTW two of the hillclimbers are now involved in Historic racing.
#98
Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:47
All things are relative. A couple of years ago I was at Kirkistown for a sprint meeting. Midway through the morning half a dozen of the hillclimb contenders who had a meeting the following day at Craigantlet arrived. There was a lot of head shaking and pointing then I was asked how fast the cars were going through Debtors Dip. When I explained the speed out of the Hairpin, the gearing plus the approximate speed (165) there was a lot of blank faces. One driver said "That's far too fast for me!" yet the following day they were all happy to be doing 120+ threading their way between earth banks and hedges whilst several of the sprinters were far more happy to sit back and watch their counterparts on the hill.
I guess it all comes down to what you are used to and comfortable with. BTW two of the hillclimbers are now involved in Historic racing.
Yes, you're right. I guess if you haven't directly seen something & have only impressions by way of film, books, photos or word of mouth, you view what you see with your own eyes or have experienced yourself, as the most memorable thing. So 50 years later that will be their nostalgia.
Thus, perhaps we should catagorize TNFers by chronological scale of nostalgia. e.g:
- Saw my first event yesterday
- Seen a season of racing
- Do it
- Been there, done it, got the baseball cap (worn backwards..)
- Still involved although I don't actually do it anymore
- Bore people at the pub with how I used to do it
- Talk amongst ourselves & go & watch other people doing it
- Talk amongst ourselves & go & watch other people who do it only occasionally now
- Get accepted by the Golf Club & pretend we never did it at all
#99
Posted 05 May 2012 - 21:30
- Never did it but wished we could do it (wife, kids, dog, job, mortgage, timidity, etc got in the way of the ambition)
- Never did it but wish we had (and gloss over why we didn't)
Advertisement
#100
Posted 08 May 2012 - 12:00
I love the girl who will
I love the girl who won't
I hate the girl who says she will..
and then she says she won't
The girl I like the best of all-
And I guess you'll say I'm right.
Is the one who says she never does...
..but she looks as though she might!
apologies for being so OT , but what the hell?