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Front roll hoops for protection by FIA


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#1 Cavani

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:25




it was posted in planet-f1 , seems the visibility will be ridiculous and the looks of the cars would be terrible i guess ,
they say it could be mounted from the opening of the cockpit to the end of the bulkhead and will prevent drivers from flying tyres !! how often do we see tyres flying from cars ?


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#2 Ali_G

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:30

Ugh god.

Mightn't be too bad if they decide to make it from a completely see through material. Would also benefit driver vision if they were to do so.

#3 Risil

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:33

Looks like the cages they have in sprint cars. Cooler than a canopy imo.

Edited by Risil, 24 April 2012 - 22:33.


#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:36

Just put a roof on and be done with it.

#5 Dunder

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:42

Just put a roof on and be done with it.


Yup.


#6 Ali_G

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:50

Just put a roof on and be done with it.


Would certainly be the most aesthetically pleasing alternative.

Edited by Ali_G, 24 April 2012 - 22:50.


#7 maverick69

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 23:07

Lol.

Maybe that'll distract one from the stupidly wide front wings, stupidly skinny and high rear wings, and the "bump" in the nose.

#8 superstring

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 23:33

Posted Image

:cool:

#9 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 23:48

This makes no sense. This wouldn't have helped Massa. It wouldn't prevent a suspension piece from coming into the cockpit.

The Adrian Newey/enclosed canopy would be better. As well as look cool and modern (see the above...), not like a sprint car. This is moronic.




#10 Disgrace

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 23:53

It certainly would have saved the life of the poor Henry Surtees.

#11 showtime

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:04

It certainly would have saved the life of the poor Henry Surtees.


I'm not so sure, the tyre came bouncing and the impact was from above.

#12 johnmhinds

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:11

I'm not sure how useful firing a tyre at a piece of metal bolted the floor really is for testing.

Once it's on a moving car it'll behave completely differently.

These are the previous tests they did with the canopy last year:


Seems like a better solution than a roll cage that blocks a lot of the drivers view.

#13 Realyn

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:11

I'm amazed by people talking aesthetics when it comes to safety.

#14 engel

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:12

the fia tests lots of things, including canopies. Doesn't mean everything makes it to the cars, in fact, most don't

#15 Tsarwash

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:37

I'm amazed by people talking aesthetics when it comes to safety.

You have to talk about all aspects of an issue. You think that aesthetics shouldn't even be mentioned in discussions of the future of motor racing ?



#16 pingu666

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:44

theres the view issue aswell
id rather have a canopy tbh, looks nicer and better protection from small debris, and no bars blocking view. but it can get dirty :/

http://www.jeffbirdr...ar_newpaint.jpg

http://sharkmotorspo... CAR FRAMES.htm

somewhat wider box frame

#17 SuperSoft

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:02

I'm amazed by people talking aesthetics when it comes to safety.


:stoned:

#18 Birelman

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:21

OMFG! What's the world coming to? That thing is horrible!

In the name of safety I guess, I think I would rather see a whole closed cockpit than that thing

#19 wingsbgone

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:39

More of a targa look. Maybe this is an accommodation to get Porsche more interested in F1?  ;)

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#20 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:52

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I think there HAS to be a line drawn somewhere in terms of safety in an open-wheel, open-cockpit race car. I mean, if you really want to protect these guys that bad, then ban open-cockpit racing altogether. Thats the ultimate conclusion, isn't it? Yes, you can take more steps to making it safer, but it still leaves possibilities open and people will eventually call for those possibilities to be safe-guarded against. In the end, you'll have to close off the cockpit entirely.

Its a really difficult subject, but I do find it amazing the lengths that sports like F1 go to to increase safety for these guys yet every pretty much every single road-racing motorcycle series is 100x more dangerous, not to mention events like the Isle of Man TT, which are pretty much the equivalent of a 1950's/1960's F1 race in terms of how likely you are to see a death at the event.

#21 Birelman

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:51

Posted Image

:cool:

If Formula 1 is seriously planning on implementing this front roll bar thing, i'd much rather they take thhe next step into the future and go in this direction with the closed canopy and covered tires, which will further increase safety, and that Newey thing looks far prettier than today's fugly F1 cars, they've really done horrible things to the series, I wouldn't mind them going this route at all while they're at it. He'll, who knows, it could be a brand new start with a clean sheet of paper

Edited by Birelman, 25 April 2012 - 04:53.


#22 Stormsky68

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:33

Posted Image

:cool:


Always thought that is a stunning design, but for me it blurs the line between F1 and LMP

Maybe that is what is needed, all things have to evolve....

#23 anbeck

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:10

A couple of years ago I was against canopy. But now I would be in favor. After all, it's open wheel racing, not open cockpit racing.

#24 4MEN

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:28

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I think there HAS to be a line drawn somewhere in terms of safety in an open-wheel, open-cockpit race car. I mean, if you really want to protect these guys that bad, then ban open-cockpit racing altogether. Thats the ultimate conclusion, isn't it? Yes, you can take more steps to making it safer, but it still leaves possibilities open and people will eventually call for those possibilities to be safe-guarded against. In the end, you'll have to close off the cockpit entirely.

Its a really difficult subject, but I do find it amazing the lengths that sports like F1 go to to increase safety for these guys yet every pretty much every single road-racing motorcycle series is 100x more dangerous, not to mention events like the Isle of Man TT, which are pretty much the equivalent of a 1950's/1960's F1 race in terms of how likely you are to see a death at the event.


:up:



#25 fer312t

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:28

This makes no sense. This wouldn't have helped Massa.



Well, they could wrap a polycarbonate canopy around this forward roll hoop, thus deflecting any smaller pieces like the heave spring....

Not in favor of any of these ideas, but anything is better than fully enclosing the driver...

A couple of years ago I was against canopy. But now I would be in favor. After all, it's open wheel racing, not open cockpit racing.



But it is open cockpit racing...as much as it open wheel racing...

Edited by fer312t, 25 April 2012 - 07:31.


#26 johnmhinds

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:30

Would drivers be able to switch to open faced helmets if canopies were used?

#27 muramasa

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:49


Why some people believe F1 = open cockpit&canopy, I dont know. It's just that it's been that way. Just a tradition, or more a myth.

Roll bar or canopy or anything, whatever reduces the chance of fatality and clears side-effects and is viable is more than welcome for me.


#28 wingwalker

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:55

http://www.f1fanatic...gn_bmw_2006.jpg (

Posted Image




Those 'twin towers' were banned on the ground of limiting visibility too much, so I'm not sure such a solution has a chance of being green lighted. Plus, those thingies would have to be really, really strong as any risk of those being ripped off and moved into the driver (in case of one car rolling over another, for example) would have to be non existent.

Edited by wingwalker, 25 April 2012 - 07:57.


#29 Rob

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:19

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I think there HAS to be a line drawn somewhere in terms of safety in an open-wheel, open-cockpit race car. I mean, if you really want to protect these guys that bad, then ban open-cockpit racing altogether. Thats the ultimate conclusion, isn't it? Yes, you can take more steps to making it safer, but it still leaves possibilities open and people will eventually call for those possibilities to be safe-guarded against. In the end, you'll have to close off the cockpit entirely.

Its a really difficult subject, but I do find it amazing the lengths that sports like F1 go to to increase safety for these guys yet every pretty much every single road-racing motorcycle series is 100x more dangerous, not to mention events like the Isle of Man TT, which are pretty much the equivalent of a 1950's/1960's F1 race in terms of how likely you are to see a death at the event.


Ultimately the way to be safest is to not race at all. As soon as you get into a car there's a certain amount of risk. Why not then have the cars radio controlled from the pits? The line has to be drawn.

#30 Fastcake

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:42

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I think there HAS to be a line drawn somewhere in terms of safety in an open-wheel, open-cockpit race car. I mean, if you really want to protect these guys that bad, then ban open-cockpit racing altogether. Thats the ultimate conclusion, isn't it? Yes, you can take more steps to making it safer, but it still leaves possibilities open and people will eventually call for those possibilities to be safe-guarded against. In the end, you'll have to close off the cockpit entirely.

Its a really difficult subject, but I do find it amazing the lengths that sports like F1 go to to increase safety for these guys yet every pretty much every single road-racing motorcycle series is 100x more dangerous, not to mention events like the Isle of Man TT, which are pretty much the equivalent of a 1950's/1960's F1 race in terms of how likely you are to see a death at the event.


Agreed, there is a limit you have to have, and I think closing in the cockpit is the other side of that line.

#31 SonnyViceR

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:55

http://i80.photobuck...ont-640x689.jpg

:cool:


We already have proper classes for things like that, LMP1 and LMP2. DP too if you count them

#32 sosidge

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:02

Don't blame the FIA... blame Lotus F1 for supplying such a hideous potential solution.

I doubt that setup would prevent injury in many situations (side impact, dropping impact). The decreased visibility would be more of a risk.

As the FIA said, they are just testing. There is no single answer to driver safety, but it has improved massively thanks to the small changes over the years.

#33 Scotracer

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:29

It's just a test

It's a test to see the feasibility of such a solution. Do you guys not understand an engineering design process?

#34 sharo

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:39

FIA Institute are just trying to justify their existence and budget I guess ...

#35 Amphicar

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:14

Not the first time this idea has been tried:

Posted Image

Back in 1975, following the death of his friend BJ Swanson at Mid-Ohio in a F5000 Lola T332, Tuck Thomas fitted a full roll cage to his T332 and (unsuccessfully) lobbied the SCCA to make roll cages mandatory.

#36 jokuvaan

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:50

Closed canopy made of transparent strong material would be far better, side protection could be lowered and driver could see better around, windscreen wiper might be needed but that would enable safer wet races too.

#37 Cavani

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:17

It's just a test

It's a test to see the feasibility of such a solution. Do you guys not understand an engineering design process?


we know it is a test and not by any means will be in the rules for 3 or 4 years , but the thread is discussing the practicality of such an idea in F1

#38 AdHoc

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:28

You guys are all talking about closed canopy, but how does the driver extract (or marshalls get him out) when the car is burning up and the driver with it? (even though F1 cars don't burn a lot anymore these days)

#39 Fastcake

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:36

You guys are all talking about closed canopy, but how does the driver extract (or marshalls get him out) when the car is burning up and the driver with it? (even though F1 cars don't burn a lot anymore these days)


Rather obviously there would be an emergency release.

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#40 MrFondue

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:45

You guys are all talking about closed canopy, but how does the driver extract (or marshalls get him out) when the car is burning up and the driver with it? (even though F1 cars don't burn a lot anymore these days)


Explosive hinges/bolts.

#41 SirRacer

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:56

To be honest, if F1 is about racing with the fastest cars in a circuit I don't get why they don't let the teams cover the tyres like Newey did with that Gran Turismo car, same with the canopy.

IMO, allow the teams to make the canopy as they want having to pass crashtests and allow them to cover the tyres and see what is the result.

Edited by SirRacer, 25 April 2012 - 13:57.


#42 One

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:56

How about making tire amd wheel in total 7kg and enforceing the suspension to be three times stronger in shock resistance and keeping cockpit open??

#43 SirRacer

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 13:58

How about making tire amd wheel in total 7kg and enforceing the suspension to be three times stronger in shock resistance and keeping cockpit open??

Because there are too many pieces in a car to be sure that none of them will be released while racing, like Barrichello's car's spring..

#44 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 14:03

Explosive hinges/bolts.

Riiiight. Let's put some explosives into the cars in the name of safety.
We ran full canopies years ago, made of used F-16 canopies and had no issues with rescue by putting pins in the locksets that were pulled out if needed.
Posted Image
The round indentations on the side of the capsules hold T handles that the locks built into the capsule use as the latch.
Enclosing the driver in a capsule has saved at least a hundred lives in drag boats since introduced in the early 90's.
Forget the roll bar, use a canopy and be done with it. If an F-16 canopy can take a bird hit at 400+mph, I'm sure the plastics technology will do do fine if fitted to an F-1 car.


#45 Garagiste

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 14:42

...not to mention events like the Isle of Man TT, which are pretty much the equivalent of a 1950's/1960's F1 race in terms of how likely you are to see a death at the event.


Worse than that, a death at the TT or Manx GP is pretty much a certanty. 237 rider fatalities in 100 years with just the two events per year, incredible it's still taking place and the 'elf and saftey era we live in. Ban Conkers though, they're dangerous.


#46 Dunder

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 14:49

To be honest, if F1 is about racing with the fastest cars in a circuit I don't get why they don't let the teams cover the tyres like Newey did with that Gran Turismo car, same with the canopy.

IMO, allow the teams to make the canopy as they want having to pass crashtests and allow them to cover the tyres and see what is the result.


F1 cars being open cockpit and having open wheels is just a historical thing. There is no reason why the regulations could not be rewritten to allow closing off both.

One positive aspect is that is would clean up the airflow substantially (wheels are the biggest contributor to the 'dirty air' problem) and allow closer following.


#47 Otaku

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 14:56

This "safety" thing is getting ridiculous. You know what's the safest thing? Don't run at all...

#48 Jon83

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:11

Agreed, there is a limit you have to have, and I think closing in the cockpit is the other side of that line.


This.

#49 Jon83

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:12

Closed canopy made of transparent strong material would be far better, side protection could be lowered and driver could see better around, windscreen wiper might be needed but that would enable safer wet races too.


Screenwash and indicators too?

#50 AdHoc

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:34

This "safety" thing is getting ridiculous. You know what's the safest thing? Don't run at all...


This does not account for the lives we sometimes have to mourne, it's no excuse.

If you want "danger" on its proper first sense, then please go back to the 50's with your time machine.

Today, we don't want our mates the drivers getting killed, sorry.